Tobacco Documents Online

u~t..ttA~J~ w. ~4~t¢5~, P/3.D. The State of Florida '7. VoL l, April 50, 1997 The American Tobacco Compat~,y Page 12: I think Counsel's point is well taken, and that was the thrust of my question, but we are ~,.~aving the two incidents of coogressinmd testimony |de because in those instances you weren't direcdy retained by tobacco or cigarette concerns, you were retained by the law firm on behalf of some business entity. A: I think I'd have m correct my record, that I think even in the evaluation of the campaign in terms of the lottery that I discussed earlier and the use ofa - Q: Would that be about 1985 you're talking about, m give me some time frame? A: That strikes me as probably in the a: When you reviewed the creative? ~: When I reviewed the creative. Q: Okay. A: - and as I - to the best of my recollection, even the review of the documents Page 37 concerning what was subpenaed by the FTC on the Joe Camel campaign, I believe even in that instance I was hired by the law firm. ~: I want to be real dear. So that in 1985, ffyou were asked the Page 36 quest/on did the cigarette industry hire you to deal |q with their issues on the FI"C investigation concerning ~ Joe Came[, your answer would be "no." ~1 Is that correct? 8l MR, MC DERMOTr:za 19857 ~ MR.YERRID: Yes. R THE WITNESS: '85 ,would not be the Joe C~met p] situation. R qmstiorL BY MR.¥ERRID: ~: You can answer. • : I was, to the best of my recollection, ~ by the law firm and paid by the law firm. - ~, All right, sir. Let's go ahead and pick ~theJoe Came[ 1989 experience. Same question. ~. Hi~ed by the law fh-m; p~fld by the law f~m~To the best of my recollection. ~, I understand. Wkh res~rd to the early 1992,J~ly '92 Camel expeflmant - and I'm speak~ specifically ¢~the collection of data that those months escompassed-,~- same question. ~;: You mean same answer? (l: No.S~n¢ question:Were you hired by d~c~obacco cigarette industry or were you hired by #g I don't recali. It could have been Okay- I did work w/th a law firm, and l'm not ~- I don't recali. ZZR.YERR|D: Almost done. I~ve we covezV.d all the has.rices up BY MR.YERRID: Q: Okay. Sorry. That would be the lottery situation? A: That is correct. Q: Excuse me.Joe Camel's 19927 A: 19- - late 1988, '89 would be theJoe Camel subpenaed documents. Q: And the collection of dam re~'dingJoe Camel would be early '92 through.luly of'927 A: That is correct. Q: Okay. Let's go back to the lottery where yon reviewed the creative. umi[ the present litigation - and I would include in ~t litigation definition Mississippi as weli as Flodd~ - all of the matteta you have dealt with mi~ng your expertise in marketing, advertising, ~ To the best of my recol/ecdon, yes. ~ And with regard to the '89, '90 efforts, do~ou recall your hourly rate at that time? I don't recall. Okay. So the only houdy rate you really z'zxzll is the present hourly rate? That is correct. You don't recall your hourly tatc in '92 through Jnly of '92 that you charged to colect data or you were paid to collect data co~eming Joe Camel? I would be guessing. I mean, I - I don't want you to guess. Yeah. ~k Okay.This is not a memot'y qu/~ l'm jtmtrying ro get an estimate. fan you eadm~te for me, then. in terms of~oss dollars - those are ddngs we can both makrsran6 - how much money you have been paid by Kllfrom the time you left the FTC until the present? If I were to ask you, sir, trader oath, were you hired by the cigarette industry to deal with their issues regarding the tasks assigned, what would your answer be? MR. MC DERMOTT:I object to the form of the Page 38 • age ~55 - Page 58 (12) Mln-U-SCril~l~ A. WILLIAM ROBERTS, JR. & ASSOCIATES

Ine ~taIe el ~lor~(la Vo RIL;klA1CdJ W. MJ.ZEI~KL, The America~x Tobacco Compxny VoL 1, April 30, Page :-: A." ~T. ~ ;Z Q: Have you been paid by any other tobacco ~ intet'~r2 ~. A: .~. MR. MG DERMOI"r: He's already testified he's been .~ paid bT law firtm. ~ MR.Y~RRID: I tmderstand that. I tmderstand the 1~ que~x~m, believe me. ~. THE WITNESS: The only- the o~1¥ thing that I could ~ state spedflcaliy- and I'm - I'd have to - in t~. f~ct, I'm speculating a bit h~'e because I don't ~ remember what ~ on any" cheek that was given to p~ me - that the only diroct txlymemt from ltd-R perhaps t~. would b~ during these trials. I'm not even sure ~ BY MR.YERRID: v~ Q: ~n durin$ these insunees you're not l~I sur~ al~out, ~ou may have been paid by some law firm 1~ as oppesed to the - A: Tuat is correcL Q: - ttal entity? A: ~at i~ eon~ct. ~l I'm unmre of that. ~ Q: Was a law ~ involved, to your ~l recoliecdon - and I just warn a "yes~ or ~no~ to Page 40 i Iq this question.Was a law firm involved ~ coltecting ta the data for your Joe Camel ex~rimem that your ~ acti~'~s involved the period early 1992 to July .=. 19927 .~ A: Yes, there was a law ~rm involved. .~ O: And gcncral/y spearing, without regard to :n what was told you orang di~ctions that came from .~ the law firm. do you have an understanding as to why ~ a law fi~a would be involved in that? [','t A: I - you'd have to talk to the law finn. ~,." O: No, no, I'm talking to you. Do you have ,~ any tmderstanding as to why a law fn-m would be ..--~ involved in the gathering of data concerning the Joe ~. Camel experiment that was the subject of your i-s. publications that you've given us the pages from, ~-~. Jourma of Marketing pages? !~ ~: No. ~. O: How many other entities do you work for t-~. in terms of products and utilize your expertise? ~: A number of manufacro~rs - Q: Approximate. How many? Q: .~md of the 20, how many use law firms to ~g do wilt was done in the tobacco cigarette industry ~ tasks that were assigned to you? [t~ [t q [t~ [t5] [t4] [t~ [1~I A: Quite a few. Q: Okay.That's good.Thank you. Off the record. (The luncheon recess was t,~¢n at 12:20 P.M.) It] APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: p.~. S~SSlON) [11] JENNtFER A. C.,O~'Y, ESQ. O. STEVEN YERRID, ESQ. ROBERT F. MCOERMO'I'r, JR., ESQ. GEOFFREY I~ BEACH, ESQ. REPORTED BY: HAROLD M. LEIBOVITZ, CSR NO. 290 Page 42 A. WILLLM~I ROBERTS, JR. & ASSOCIATES MJn-U-Script~ (13) Page 39 - Page 42

• ~ w. ~v~, ~'n.D. The State of Florida Vol. 1, April 30, 1997 ~Americtm Tobacco Compa~. y (The deposition of RICHARD W. MIZERSKI, Ph.D. was reconvened after the ~l~inncheon recess.) RICHARD W. MIZERSKI, Ph.D., having been previously duly sworn, testified further as follows: Page43 florida.That is wc will pick up with the first Florida exhibit beingt~e expert disclosure of Dr. Mizerski and it wetS[ bc Exhibit No. 24.The other deposition cxh~/ts will be identical in numeration, that is I I~tough 23. It should bc identical in both deposition transcripts. MR. McDERMOTt: ~ is-correct. ~ MR.YERRID: I was about to resume questioning of the p0] deponem. But I believe my colleague on the other Isq side of the case has some comments and some p~ stipulations that should be recited to expedite the o31 matter and move certain issues into moomess. p41 MR. McDERMOTT: Over lunch I was able m review V8 F.xhibit 8 and that review confirmed what I have been p*a led to believe, and what I think everybody believed, l*~] that this document was produced in connection with Oil this expert deposition by mistake. It is a ttz privileged document dealing with the jury research. t~ It has not been reviewed by Dr. Mizerski. It has t~q nothing whatever to do with the subject matter of ~ this deposition.As I say it was pure inadvertence. ml I believe we have reached agreement that t~ the document should be returned to us based upon that ~ representation and that should put an end to this matter. Paga44 MR.YERRID: For the record on behaff of Florida I have been privy to that discussion before it went on the record.And with those rcpresen=dons I am in agreement with counsel. MS. COLEY: For the record, for the ~te of Mississippi and being the person who received the document, I will assert for the record and for the defense that that is the ouly copy of the document which exists and agree to the stipulation that it be removed. MR. McDERMOTT: Thatxk you. MR.YERRID: I do have something in the way of a stipulation. I understand from talking with defense counsel there is certain protocol that has been established. I have not been a part of it but I have certainly been shown a copy of some establbhed protocol. But by agreement and working in good faith I believe we~ve concluded that the Mississippi deposition can be used for whatever purpose it would be used as a deposition in Florida in those proceedlngs.The exhibits attached to the Mississippi deposition and the nmnbcring afilxed to each exhibit will be consistent with that in MR.YERRID: I will mz~fzrm my intention to try to finish the deposition ~ :z reasomble period of time.And my goal is to fudsh it by tomorrow, certaixfly no later thaa the late afternoon or early eveulng and possibly qoite sooner. I wli/do my best in that tegasd reallzit~ everybody has traveled great lengths. I ara certainly not asking to jeopardize our position. MFL McDERMOTT: All right. Ifas the expert dedgnatinn been marked? MIZ YERRID: Yes, it has. When we left I belk'~ these was a request made for a clemz copy of the expert disclosure statemeot.T~tat has been procured and that with the cou= reporters assismnee-hns been marked and will be a part of thls deposition as Exhibit 24. (Mizerskl £xhlblt No. 24 ~ marked for identification and is annexed hereto.) EXAMINATION (CONTINUING) I~' MR.YERRID: Q: I will jnst ask you fine the record, sir, is that to the best ofyo~ knowledge a photocopy of the disclosure statemeat that you participated in authoring? &: That is correct. Q: And does the FL ia handwriting notation at the upper fight-hand torner denote that it's for Florida usage as opposed to Mtssis~ippi? &: I presume so. I dida't put it on there but that is what I'm led to believe. " ~: As I recall, I had a~l~ed you and cotmsei had inquired about a specific subsection of the question.And so it will be clear, I had asked you about what mules you had received from PJR and cotw, seI said were you ilx:tuding the law firm's compensations. Because we had that dialogue. Do you recall thaL~ ~: Yes, I do. ~: We specifically justsalked about BJR remtmeradon or compemation? Page 45 Paga 46 age 43 - Page 46 (14) Mi~-IJ-Scril~t~ A, WII.LIAM RO~ERTS, JR. & ASSOCIATES

,,~. o~c o* rwr,u~ v. RICHARD W. MIZERSKI, The American Tobacco Company VoL I, April 30, Pege 47 A: Correct. Q: Grouping the I~JR and the law firm compensation as one, in other words looking at the to~tky of your efforts that we~,e discussed thus far in your direct restimony, what is your best estimate, realizing it is ouly an estimate, as to the amount of money paid to you since you left the FI'C up to and including the present time? And I would use information and we will deal equitably with you in this matter.That is to the extent that this is the ~ rule for this enterprise on both s/des.That's fine ~] to the extent that it's nor- th3 MR.YERRID: I appreciate that.And you are not ~ acquiescing. But the assemblage will take place and el we will deal with that at some subsequent time. tel don't imagine it will be a huge undertaking, yesterday as a cutoff. If not paid, certainly accrued to be paid. A: Now are you talking expenses included? Q: EvetTthing" By the way, I will give you an opporttmity to break that out.I don't want to mislead anyone by saying, beeause I Imow there is Q: Let me as~ you, did you ever engage in any work for the health oriented Sroups, that is gsoups that would I~ opposed to smoking or the advertising of smoking related products, such as cigarettes? A: Yes. expenses and ! know f~m where you came.You don't have to rush. A: l'm making a gues~ at this point of som~aing in the area of perhaps $1 ~),000. Q: A,ssuming that's your best estimate or O: And that would be after you left the FI"C? A: Yes. Q: Tell me s little bit about those 11~ experience~, If there is more than one. [~ A: Of course one of them would beThe guesstimate, an accounting would bear om whatever number. Do you have an accountant that does your billing or do you and your wife do it or do you do it? A: No. I had an accountant off and on. ~: Would it be possible for you to give us a Page 48 definitive answer to that question as opposed to a guess ffyou went back and had the opportunity to look ti~ough your records?There is nothing magical about doing that process. A: ~o.The only thing [ wou/d ~y is d~t I'm not su~ how far back in the eighties ! could go. Because as I moved to Ausl~l~, quite honestly ~ had some decision I had to m~ke as to what ~ was ~oing to take given the cons~-~in~ that I have. ! have records presun~bly at |cast seven yesrs back. Q: I would ask that you forward those to the defense lawyers and let them make a dctcrrrdn~don and possibly with those records you could put esdm~tes going b~ck with some passage of dine and P.J~ecdon, estimates of the anloml~ of money that you spent for those records that you don't have.And we would take )'our rcpresentat/on, at leas~ I will take your represen~don for those amounts of money as opposed to itemized accounting" MR. McDERMOtt': Let me interject here. I think at lc~s~ in Mississippi the unde~kin~ on both sides was to discuss compensation with respect to the a¢ issue, or the cases at issue, rather than pc/or con~cts and employments. I will let Dr. Mizerski assemble that FederalTrade Commlssion.Are you asking specifically did I week on prelects anttsmoking? Q: Yes.A~ter, say, 1981-'82. ~ MR, McDERMOTi': I think I t~ybe confused as is Dr. MizerskL I thought you asked for work for health o~entea g~ups, not necessarily on tobacco Page 4 Page 50 related issues but just work in general for groups that would, you k~ow, in some other context be andtobacco, MR.YERRID: I apologize. I think I did that. Let me withdraw the question. Q: Did you work with groups, and I am talking now and confining my questions for purposes of time to tobacco, cigarettes, ffthose are a subsection, but tobacco to encompass all of that, Did you do any work for proponents for no smoking environments or critics or opponents of cigarette a0cerrising or anything such as that after you left the rrc? A: Yes. I have done some work with the Uuited Way, who is involved in some of their activities in antismoking, O: Can you just globally teU me when that would be? A: That would be per'naps '93. Q: What did that activity entail? A: I participated in helping them promote the Urdted Wa)'. promote some of the fimding that would go to groups that would be aligued with antismoking, such as The American Cancer Society, et cetera. A. VgH.LIAMROBERTS, JR. & ASSOCIATES /~4Jm-U-Scr/pt~ (15) Page 47 - Page S0

RICHARD W. MIZERSKI, PILD. The State of Florida v. VoL 1, April 30, 1997 The American Tobacco Compa/~,y Q: When you say you helped the United Way in terms of promoting and furthering its operation. "'here's an umbre~ of organizations that are funded ~1 part by the United Way.You ate aware of that? A: That's correct. Q: Did your help with United Way, was it a Page 51 lq Q: l-Im¢ many hou/s did you expend on that ~ activity i~ '93. approximately? A: W~ activity? O: ~ UnitedWay activity. A: Tke total UnitedWay? ~: "llte total amount and we will break it general assistance effort as opposed to something directed towards the cancer group under the umbrella or some other group? A: .Well, I was involved in evaluating programs of various groups, l/valuating their performance, evaluating their marketing plans, ascertaining future funding, the allocation of funding m various gzoups.And also ~si~ed in developing promoflo~n for the UnitedWa)' ~md some other groups. O: Was Mr.bzamony the I~¢stdom of the United Way of America when you were doing ~ A: I believe it w~s ~ound the time when he was relieved of his position or resigned. So that might help establish about when that was. It was a period in which they ob~onsly had some dtfficnity in rees~bltshing their eredtblliW. G: Did you ~vel to the Vir~Mfa m~in headqu~'ters of the United Way of America in doing this activity or did you work in the field? A: No. I worked in the Taliahassoe area and Leon County and some of the other counties in North down m we d/d befote. A: S¢~.tal weeks.A coup|e of weeks. Q: Acouple of weeks.And that was a pro bono ve~untcer effort? A: T~t's correct. Q: No charges or remtmetation wns given? A: No cl~es or z~nuae~tion. Q: With rel~'d to the couple of weeks, how long ~Sd.you speci~czll)' deal with an), groups that would ~e assoc~ed with the other side of the cigare~ lndm~ry, for ~ck of a better ~en~ Ia othe~ ~rds, the opponems of s~okin~ ci~re~e A: I b~eve the Un~ed Way wonid be ~he oni)' sp~c acti~ty direaed ~ow~rd that. ~: ,~d in the UnitedWay tv~weeb~eflod zhat yo~ ~e~ed m ~ ~a~ ~u d~d yo~ ~c~e of ~e, how much of ~a[ ~wcek ~od ~ d~d m, ~y, ~e ~n ~ncer tq Society arAmcrican LungAssociation? If you can ~ recall. ~ A: I cm't recall.There were meetings, Fioridz. O: Did you work specifically with any pan/culm" chairman of the ioc~d effort of the United Way? A: Yes. Q: Who did yoU work for? A: I don't remember the chatrn~n'$ name offhand. visiting ~ facilities, evaluation of promotion plans, p~sentatious that they put on, questio~ were asked./md I don't recall specifically how long. O: What speciticall)' did you suggesL was it the American Cancer Society, with regard to stop stnokingthat you mentioned? A: T'a~e were a number of groups that were involved.There were not oni)' thcAmcrlcan Cancer Q: You mentioned theAmerican Cancer greup. Did you work with that group individually or was that simply one of the groups that belonged to the United Way participatory family? A: My best recollection is that I actually ~itcd their facPiw, c~duated their program, ImrticilYated in decisions with a selected number of other United Way individuals to determine how much they shou/d be allocated out of the total fund. Q: But these were not refined programs directed towards smoking opposition efforts, or anything such as that? A: Well, it had to do with smok/ng and_ smoking programs and quit smoking programs. Society.there were also various other g~oups who were involved in elimination, or programs concerning smokiz~as well as other kinds of substance abuse. O: ~ I realize that the United Way does a lots of thinga about drug addiction and alcoholism and a lot of other substance abuse programs. Bm speaktngspecifically to cigarette usage, what did you do lltat you can recall to promote those various entities efforts in that regard? A: As I said be.fore, I listened - First of all reviewed their meting plans and evatuatious of - their ctaluations of prev/ous performance. I listencdm their presentations and then later discussedamong a select group of individuals how Page 53 Page 51 - Page 54 (16) Min-U-Scripto A. WILLIAM ROBERTS, JR. & ASSOCIATES

lnc ~am at Horat~ v. RICHARD W. MIZERSKI, T.he American Tobacco Company VoL I, April 30, 199 {,j much tunding should go and what sorts of criteria ~ should be applied to them and perhaps future ~" OI performance. Q: What type of presentations did you listen top I really won't dwell a long time on this. But l'm intaxsted to hear about it. A: At least the UnltedWay I was familiar with is .~arly, if not more often, they would have a Page 55 tz select group of their organizations that they helped el01 fired, would have on-site evaluation by a select group tV,l of volumcers,And before the on-site they would tt~ have written marketing plans and overall plans of teal what they were going to do and how are they going to t~,l ~d~ocate their funding. How they allocated funding in the last year. Evaluations of how well that funding was used.And any kind of potential performance indicators. Q: What'S the best way to utilize funding to get people, in particular teenagers younger than 18 years oki, to stop smoldng? Based upon not only your United Way activities but also your genend A: I don't know if there's a best way.I Page O: 17 and under. A: There were also programs ahead at adults so they could use this information in terms of, let's say they might have child care programs or they might have visiti~ households that were poor.The United Way dealt with a broad range of comdtuents from the elderly to the very poor in rural areas. Q: Let me be very clear. I want you to assume that there is a ten-year old male, you can make him black or white. Depending on what you said before I don't think it wouJd make a difference to you_ In Tallahassee within the city limits.What is the most effective way to see that that child never picks up a dgarette~ ~q ~: The most effective way to make sure that Vq at that early age, perhapseven younger than that, ttT~ that the parents were aware that smoking was an It~l activity that may lead to their own children tt~] ultimately using it because they potentially may be tm modeling orget access to cigarettes through that. tz. Q: In your case, Kents, because your father ~ smoked Kents. ~ rat A: That's correct.So I would deal with - think I noted before that the particular program one would me would very much depend on the age that they Well, again I'm -You are asking me hypothetical because I can't tell you specifically what all of those prognms dld.And, of course, a lot of things Page 56 were going a~ter, where they were in the process of Ill have happened since that time. Q: I'm not suggesting to you about the U~ted Way.And I think that's what counsel is talking about. I am calling upon your expertise, your hackground, your skills and viramlly without regaml to funding what is the best way to ensure that a ten-year old child in Tallahassee, Florida, does not ever pick up a cigarette and become addicted to smoking. MR. MeDERMO'I'r.' I object to the form of the these potential cigarettes uptake, consumption and purchas/ng uptake. Q: Let me fill those in as we go along.The age of the 17 and younger, the geographic problems would be the state of Florida. What was your other criteria? A: Where they were in that stage. Q: Demographically distributed according to the citizenry profile of the state.That is you would have people dwelling in Miami, Tampa, Orlando, (~ question.And to some of its hidden hypotheses. I l~ take it your question is asking him writing on a 0~l clean slate to design his own program. If he had all l~l the money and all the time and all the power in the l~ world, design a program that vdll make sure that a I~ given child doesn't smoke. I~ that the question? I~ M~.¥E~R|D: No. tt~ Q: Here's the question, Doctor. Given the r~l fact that you understand our limitations in our ~,! society, what is the practical approach you would t~ envision that would be possible to utifize in I~] Taliahassee, Horida, to stop a ten-year old child t~! from becoming habituated to smoking cigarettes? t2*1 A: The first step would be to see what sort and you would have people in the roral area of the panhandle and the outskirts of the central Florida area, and the outskirts of mban areas, like Lake Okeechobee. A: I specifically dealt with a particular area.And I don't remember all of the counties. But it ~as Leon County, Wakulla County, Jeffe~on County..~J3d there might have been Liberty County. Q: Those three or four counties would be good.That gives me a reference point. In those areas what would be the best way to proceed to deter youth smoking? A: Once again it would depend on the age of the youth you were talking about. In fact there - Page 58 A. WILLIAM ROBERTS, JR. & ASSOCIATES Mln-U-$crlptO (17) Pa~e ~;~; - ~o,- gn

RICHARD W. MIZERSKI, Ph.D. The State of Florida v. VoL 1, April 30, 1997 The American Tobacco Compatly of environment of that particular market. Because there are all kinds of ten-year olds in the ~.Tallahassee area.Tallahassee is an unusual area, as "hink you probably understand, that has a broad opcctrum from the very, very poor and illirerate to the quite rich. G: I will cut down the parameters so you can Page S9 Page 61 But perhaps more to the point, he is being offered as an ezpert in advertising, marketing, promotion and how that affects the cigarette market and people who may or may not smoke. He is not being offered as an expert on why people start or the adolescent minds of ten-year olds or the sociology of Tatlahassee or anything else. cut down your answer. I want you to assume a family of average income, let's assume - Are you familiar with that, the average income? A: Yes. G: Family of average income. I w'ant you to assume that it's the only child in the household. I want you to assume the parents are in their earl), thirties. I want you to assume that both patents work and I want you to assume that both parents week and in nonprofessional occupations and I don't mean that in a demeaning way. One works as a manager of a hardware store. A: Excuse me. It is too much. I really need to write all of these assumptions down.That is a long profile that will probably take some discussion.And I can explain to you why if you like. Page 60 MR. McDERMOTt: Here's a blank piece of paper. BY MR.YERRID: Q: Average income, ten-year old only child - I will change it. MR. McOERMOTI': Before you start on your new fist let me ask you when you are done with your list to give me an opportunity to interpose an objection. Became we are getting far afield here but you are on a roll and I don't warn to interrupt you. BY MR.YERRID: Q: Ten-year old, father is a lawyer? MR. McDERMOTT: You are starting to sound personal. BY MR.YERRID: Q: And the mother is a homemaker. I want you to first teg me, assuming that they are whi~e Christian and second assuming they are black Christian.Third, ass-aming they art white atheists and fourth assuming they are black atheists. MR. MeDERMO~': Let me interpose an objection here. This is a totally unrcalistdc hypothetical, to ~ extent, it doesn't begin m address a lot of the v-arlabies that relate to why people smoke or don't smoke.There is no showing or foundation that this wimess has sufficient information with respect to potentially relevant variables to address the issue. I~ MR.YERRID: And I take that as a friendly objection I=1 and I will incorporate that because I think it's a t~=~ ~e~.,-~e~ oble~on. t~] Q. I veant you to only look at it in terms of tm your expertise of advet~ marketing and [nl promotions, not human factors, psychological impact 041 or any such thing. Only how best you would address ~ttl the issue in the term of your three pronged tt~ expertise, advertising, meting and promotion. A: Given the hypothetical you gave me. ~: Yes. A: The flrat thing I will note is that there ~ is some very Important in~rmafion that is missing. ~l Q: Okay. m &: Although the father is a lawyer we-don't t~ knowifhe is actively practicing~ whether he is ;~ successful, whether he is unsuccessful, what is their ~ income range, where do they live, what kind of people Page 62 do they work with, what klnd of people do they live with. In other words, what is the neighborhood like. ~: Nice pate of town. Less than $ 100,000. Clearly successful in ternm of ptofessinua! accomplishment and in terms of monetary reward, consider family to be fairly succcss~d. Normal couple. A: in terms of the chtld, rhla lYadcnlar child, successful at school? Am they unsuccessful at school. Q: B student, successf~I at school in terms of getting along well with fellow playmates and teachers. MR. McDERMOTT: Does he catch snuff occasionally? MR.¥ERRID: This hypothetical is very flawed, I can tell you. THE WFrNE$S: I'm not sure.White Christian would necessarily, although if they were religious. Indeed if we said they were a white Mormon family - BY MR.VERRID: ~: No, not a Mormon family, not overly religious.Just believe. A: They could be haptists. If they were Baptists, in fact they could be very severe strictures. • age 59 - Page 62 (18) MAn-U-Sta-ipt~ A, ~ ROBERTS, JR. & ASSOCIATES

The Amebean Tob.~cco Company VoL 1, April 30, 195 G: Presbyter/an. A: As far as smoking. It would depend on how they reviewed their religion.That could be important. If the religion is a very important par~ of their life. Q: Moderately important. Moderately impor~nt and they believe in goodness and truth. What else? A: Most people would probably say the)" believe in goodness and truth. Q: Saying and dning arc two different things. I want you to assume that they do as they say. A: This particular family would appear to be one in which rwst of all this doesn't appear to be the same probability that thb ten-year old, male or female. G: IVl~le. &: This ten-year old male would be in what we would Say a more high risk category. I would expect this tea-year old would be obsetw~nt of the Page63 into your opinion? A: That is correct. O: Please cont~nue. A: SO I would say that the most important thing, of course, is to make sure that he continues in that environment, that the parents do not smoke, to be observant and to see that his friends are, his dose friends, particularly his close male friend is not smoking. So I think a ptogram that would bc aimed at that individual is already in place there. And is no doubt quite efffcctivc. Q: What is the basis for that last opinion? A: As I remember I looked at some smoking rates over the past in terms of'Paliahassec of different ago groupings, And I remember that there was. It seemed to be below that of other parts of the state. Also remember that Tallahassee is very close to the county that I lived in, which was, how quickly ! forgot - ~: Take your time. media, would be provided with schooling commensurate with the location that they're at. Q: Right. A: My experience in thcTallabassec area is Page 64 that they have a rather extensive, particularly at that income level, and If it was the school that was commensurate with that, they have a very active antitobacco program. Q: The school itself?. A: The school itself.And presumably all through his schooling he has been exposed to a great Page 6 Page 66 A: - well, it was a county to.~he wost. MS. COLEY: pdsden County? THE WITNESS. Yes, I lived in Gadsden which had about 67 percent black. One would expect there, and there appeared to be lower smoking rates. So the eni, itonment would be one substantially different than some other urban areas where you might find differences. BY MR.YERRID: Q: I'm sorry, Doctor.You didn't connect with me on that last comment that you make of your is] desl of this. , ~] opinion concerning Gadsden and the black population. ~ Beyond that in this particular city there l~l Can you tic it a little together for me. t,o) is an active media, the Tanahassee Democrat, that t~0~ A: Yes. Q: I believe you also mentioned low incidence of smoking. A: Yes.We find that black males tend to have a much lower incidence of smoking. Q: Than who? - A: White males.Who are in this - Cerrai~ minors. Q: In other words, in comparative census the white male at ago X would have a higher incidence of smoking, commencement of smoking than the black contemporary at the Same a~e. A: That is correct. Incidence of smoking, experimentatlotl of stnoking. Q: I meant to eucapsulc all of them. A: So I think in this particular area of feels very strongly about antismoking.There is a substantial amount of autismoking literature that is coming out there. The city itself is located, it is the state capitol.There arc a lot of heaRh organizations involved there.There is a u-emendons amount of health information that is available. Beyond that, not only the health information but there is a great deal of information for children of this age dealing with the social r'~ factor.And I'm just going to sort of c.tmmcterize it as to basically how to say no when they arc offered various kinds of product. Q: All right, sir, if I can interrupt.That t~) was given as a backdrop and now you are going to get A. WILLIAM ROBERTS, jR. & ASSOCIATES Min-U-$crtpt'~ (19) Page 63 - Page 66

~tL.tXAttU W. bllJ.J~Kl, Ph.D. The State of Florida v. VoL 1, April 30, 1997 The American Tobacco Compa~x. y of the targets it might be going after, this seems to be the least at risk. So I think there needs m be a reinforcement of this program. But given resources ~hat might be increasingly difficult to generate, particularly in the state of Florida, as I am aware, I would think that this particular target market is Page67 Paga 69 Do you believe adverdsing either to the youth orm the adult population results in new smokers and purchases of cigarette products? MR. McDERMOTT: I object to the form of the question to the extent that it assumes there is advertising to the youth market. ~ not the one that we need to focus most of our energy ~ but we need to simply reinforce the program that is ~] available at presem. po] O: And reinforcing the program available at pq presem would be the very active antitobacco program [1~ you mentioned you would assume would be at the pal schooling location, the parents not smoking, the male pq fx'iends not smoking,those types, and you mentioned ps3 more. But those ~ jt.~'t a few of the things you p~ mentioned; correcO ' p T] A: That is correct, sir. pal Q: Let's go into the subsections of those I*~ elements.With regard to the parents not smokin& ~,~ you would agree, would you not, that the effect of ~1 advetxising on adults is ia fact teat and can be I~ measm'od in terms of consumption and sales of I~ productS? In! MR. McDERMOTT: 1object to the form of the Iz~ question.That is too general. Page68 THE WITNESS: No. Why don't we just ray fit~t of all I assume that you are talking in general. BY MR.YERRID: Q: Yes. A: If you are talking in general not cigarettes but any category, then I would agree with you. Q: Now confining it somewhat to this case you do not agree that - Advertising, marketing and promotion, those are yo~r ti~ee areas of expertise; is that correct, sir? A: Th;;['$ correct. Q: You would agree that utilizing alJ three of those areas in the cigarette industry's behalf would not increase sales and create new smokers; is that your opinion? A: I don't want to be argumentative, sir. Yo~ started off saying, "you do not agree" and then you said "you do agree" and then you add some other factors. I would be more than happy to respood m the question. But I want to make sure what your question is. Q: Thank you.You are not being argumentative and ! don't ~e it that way. But beyond that you can answer ff you THE WITNESS: I do not be11~e that advertising gets either youths or adults m smoke. BY MR.YERRID: Q: Do you be/Jeve that the cigarette industry has in the past, and I am speaking about the last 40 odd years, have targeted youths in its adv~ campaign recozds? A: I don't know. Q: Would it SUrl~iSe you to le~Lm that they have targeted underage smokers - underage chiRiren to be smnkers? Strike tha~ Would it surprise you to learn that the cigarette indusu'y has specilically targeted chlkh'en under the age of 18 foz adverddag and-marketing MR. McDERMOTT: I object to the form of the question. I think it is ambiguous as to whether you Page 70 are asking about intendous or effect. BY MR.YERRID: Q: You can answer. A: And you ~ talking about targeting. O: Yes. I think it has bulk-in - A: And targeting in my assumption would be that they not only would evaluate underage, but also would put into force media programs and advertising nod distribution and other forms of marketing, targeted at those individuats.Yes, ! would be surprised. Q: And if the cigarette indusu'y did that they would be - How would you describe such conduct? A: It wouldo't be successful. It Would be foolish on their par for several reasons. First of which would be that it would Iead to condemnation on the part of society, and this would lead to very negative publicky and a dil~culty in doing long term business. Second og all they are not going to be succeas/ul at it. Q: Do you believe marketing or promotional activity on behalf or" the cigarette industry results in new sales and new customers of cigarette products? 'age 67- Page T0 (20) ll~in-U-~crlpto A. WII.LIAMROBERTS, jR. & ASSOCIATES

The American Tobacco Company VoL 1, April 30, 199' How is the, in yore" expcr~ opinion - Page 71 Strike that. In your expert opinion, sir, how is the cigarette indnstr/attempting to replace the smokers that die each year of smoking related maesses? MR. McOERMOTT: ! object to the form of the question, no foundation, and assumes facts which are very much in dispute. BY MR,¥ERFIID: Q: Let me rephrase it and lay a predicate. Sir, do you believe that there are a number of Americans that die each year from smoking related illnesses? A: Yes. Q: And do you believe that nicotine is addictive? A: No. Q: Do you believe that it is habin~d~J A: I believe that it may have some aspects of h~bin~ad~g. But, of course, we wmdd have to put that in the context of a long range of drugs, including alcohol, caffeine and various other ldnds of by-products in such categories as eandy. Page that some feel that dicotine is addictive. But if nicotine is truly addictive and one becomes adhered m nicotine, would you agree from a marketing, advertising and promotional standpoint that l:~micular addict is in a much different position dnn the nonaddict? MR. McDERMOTT: I object to the fotm of the question. I thiz~ your hypothetical is a little bit - it is sor¢ of consumes itself'. If a person is addicted to the role of advertising, is not at all clear.And I don't understand the question. Maybe you can rcphr~c it. BY MR.YERRID: Q: ~the wtmes$ ~ give me that tcsthnony ! would be most appreciative. I~ you can gh, c me that resthnony that the lawyer just gave me that's great. I need that to come ~Eom you because that is the only testimom/I can get in evidence. • : I actually forgot what my counsel might have said.Wasn't your questinn that you wanted me m assume that it was addictive? t~: Let me- ~: Because I very strongly fe~.tt is not addictive. I have not seen an addict and I have tal~ed to man), smokers. My dad included. So I have Page 72 Q: YOU have mentioned alcohol. Let's leave candy out for a moment.They don't have treatment centers that l"m aware of for candy. But they do have treatment centers for alcohoLAnd it's a known addictive substance in some people; correct? A: Yes, it is.Bin may I also add - MR. McDERMOTT: Let me interpose an objectionl I have no objection to your exploring ~he doctor's personal views on this or any other questions.But I would again emphasize that he is being questioned in areas that are outside his expertise and outside the areas in which he is being offered as an expert.But feel free to explore as you wish. MR.YERRID: I will tie it up. THE WITNESS: I wns going to suggest that there are other behaviors such as bulimta, other kinds of repulsive disorders that - BY MR.YERRID: Q: C, ambling~ A: - that art addictDe, that have absolutely no meting efforts and some that may have marketing efforts.And so there once again there would be a broad range of behaviors that there would be treatments for. Q: And I know you don't agree with the fact Page 74 seen very few - I have seen on television people who even with death close to them, of something presumably that could be associated with smoking have continued to smoke. I personally have not seen it. Q: Have you ever visited any cancer wards? A: Yes. I unfortunately have, sir. (i: You have not seen any cancer wards where emphysema victims or lung cancer victims have continued to smoke actnall~ while they are in the hospital in the terminal stages of cancer? A: No, I have not. (~: That would surprise you to see such things? A: I am never surprised. But I think it is quite rare. O: Wodid that affect your belief, your very convinced belief that nicotine is addictive if you saw such things? ~: No. I would interpret that - In fact there is good research on that.That those individnals have made a cost benefit analysis. In ~e sense that they may be near death and they are choosing to live the last days of their life in the way that they see fit. ~: Actually you believe those terminally il/ A. WILLIAM ROBERTS, JR. & ASSOCIATES Min-UoScrtpt~ (21) Page71-Page74