Youth and Marketing
Brown & Williamson Tobacco Corporation vs. Walter Jacobson and CBS, Inc., Deposition of Walter Jacobson
Abstract
Deposition statement of Walter Johnson, reporter and commentator from WBBM, argues the philosophies and professional responsibilities for a reporter, includes providing fair and accurate information. Questions whether it is essential to give sense of time and place to the viewer.Presents CBS's standards for reporting, asks if Michael Podutzsky produced an article or script for his article perspective, mentions the confidential FTC report, the pot, wine, beer, sex marketing strategy.
Fields
- Notes
Original document code was 496.
- Company
- Brown and Williamson Tobacco Corp.
- Minor Subject
- Advertising and Marketing -research
- Advertising and Marketing -strategy
- Federal Trade Commission (FTC)
- Legal Issues -litigation
- Public Relations
- Advertising and Marketing -strategy
- Major Subject
- Advertising and Marketing
- Legal Issues
- Author
- Jacobson, WalterPlaintiff
- Wolfe, Rosenberg and Associates Inc
Document Images
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
IO
II
12
13
14
15
15
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
IN
THE UNITED STATEN DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS
EASTERN DIVISION
BROWN & WILLIAMSON TOBACCO
CORPORATION,
VS*
Plalntiff,
WALTER JACOBSON and
CBS, INC.,
Defendants.
No. 82 C 1648
The deposition of WALTER JACOBSON, called
by the Plaintiff for examination, taken pursuant to
the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure of the United
States District Courts pertaining to the taking of
depositions, taken before JULIE ANN CONROY, a Notary
Public within and for the County of Cook, State of
Illinois, and a Certified Shorthand Reporter of said
state, at Suite 3000, One IBM Plaza, Chicago,
Ill•inois, on the 12th day of July, A.D. 1984, at
9:30 a.m.
2
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
PRESENT:
MESSRS. PAUL, WEISS, RIFKIND,
WHARTON & GARRISON,
(345 Park Avenue,
New York, New York I0~54). by~
HE. MARTIN LONDON,
appeared on behalf of the
MESSRS. REUBEN & PROCTOR,
(19 South LaSalle Street,
Chicago, Illinois 60603),
MR. JAMES A. KLENK,
by=
Plaintiff;
-and-
CBS, 1NC.,
(51 West 52nd Street,
New York, New York 10019),
MR. DOUGLAS P. JACOBS,
by=
appeared on behalf of the Defendants.
ALSO PRESENT:
MR. GARY CUMMINGS.
REPORTED BY: JULIE ANN CONROY, C.S.E.
3
12
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
l
2 ~
3 WALTER JACOBEON
4 By Mr. London
5
6
7
8
10 Jacobson Deposition
Exhibit
11
NO. 1
Nos. 2, 3, and 4
No. 5
LN___D _~_x
E X E I B ITS
42
66
81
1 ~ 4
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2o
21
22
23
24
MR. LONDON: Will you swear the witness,
please?
(WHEREUPON, the witness was duly
sworn.)
WALTER JACOBSON,
called as a witness herein, having been
sworn, was examined and testified as
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. LONDON:
first duly
follows:
Q. Mr. Jacobson, may we have your home
address, please7
A. 552 West Belden.
Q. And you are employed by whom, sir?
A. WBBM TV.
Q. DO you have any other employers?
A. WBBM Radio.
Q. DO you have any other employers7
A. NO.
Q- HOW long have you been employed by
WDBM TV?
A. I would say approximately 14 years on
and off.
Q. Why don't we work back the other way.
Could you tell me your educational
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
g
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
background, please?
A. From where; high school?
Q. High school, college, anything after
that.
A. New Trier Township High School, Winnetka,
Illinois. Grinnell College, Grinnell, Iowa.
Q. A degree, sir?
A. Bachelor's degree in political science.
Q. When was that, sir?
A. 1955. These are all approximate. Okay?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. 1955, Bachelor's degree in political
science.
degree from Columbia
that?
you study or --
Masterls
O. When was
A. 1956.
What did
A. Something's wrong here.
Take your time.
A. I'm sorry. 1955
University.
is when I graduated from
high school. 1959 is when I graduated from Grinnell
1960 was when X got my Master's degree at Columbia.
One year CSS fellowship without a degree
at the East Asian Institute at Columbia.
-I 6
i
T
(
l
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
O. And what did you study during your
Master's degree at Columbia in 19607
A. Journalism.
Is that the Columbia School of
Journalism?
A. Yes.
Q, New York City?
A. Yes.
Q. And the CBS fellowship,
describe that, please?
A. How do you mean?
Q. Were you at school?
A. I lived in New Jersey
school every day.
Q. Which school?
could you
and I went to
A. Columbia University. I took a variety
of courses in political science, I was not
matriculated.
And I took a year's
personal tutoring in Chinese,
Q. When you say it was
does that mean you had some
CBS to do those studies?
A. For nine months I
worth of
at which I was --
a CBS fellowship, •
sort of a grant from
took a leave from here,
L
I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
that
as a
for
Q. Then what did you do when you finished
nine-month study at Columbia in 19617
A. I came back to Chicago and went to work
-- continued my work as a reporter for WBBM.
Then I have missed something.
When did you start working as a reporter
WBBM? Take your time.
A. Do you know what's wrong here?
O. What's wrong?
A. Again --
MR. KLENK: He hasn't asked you a question.
THE WITNESS: He didn't?
MR.
KLENK: Can you tell him when you
started working?
I will be glad to get his starting
date and give it to you.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. If you want to explain something, go
right ahead.
A. I just want to get my dates right. I
didn't say that 1961 was the year I went on the
fellowship. You asked me what my education was.
My chronological education was as you put it down.
Later on, I went back as a fellow. So
8
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
1O
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
IB
19
20
21
22
23
24
between the time I graduated from Columbia School
of Journalism and the fellowship, there were years
during which I was a --
Q. You graduated from -- let's see if we
have At now -- from Columbia School of Journalism.
And I understand that you are a little uncertain
about these dates.
Would you Just do this for me --
A. Sure.
Q. -- if you later realize that any one
of these dates are off, would you let me know?
A. I said initially that they are
approximate.
0. But if you later find out you are off,
would you let me know?
A. Sure.
O. As you best recall it now, you graduated
with a Master's from the Columbia School of
Journalism An 1960, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I then went to Europe for
Q. To study?
A. NO. TO travel.
six months.
two+.,'/+,
681814473
g
P
l
(
lQ
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
O. What then?
A. I returned to Chicago and was
United Press International.
g. This would be sometime in 1961, sir?
A. 1961, I think.
From there -- now, I'm lost on the --
have Just been
O. You are in 1961 and you
employed by UPI.
A. Right, at which time, I
stringer at Time Magazine.
employed
also was a
From there -- and I don't know the dates
from there, I went to Chicago's American,
by
now --
which became Chicago Today.
From there, I went to WBBM TV as a writer.
Approximately 1964 or '5, I'm not sure --
(WHEREUPON, Mr. Douglas P. Jacobs
entered the deposition proceedings.)
(WHEREUPON, there was a short
interruption.
~Y MR. LONDON:
Q. All right, sir. Approximately
did you work at UPI?
A° This is a guess. A year.
Q. What were your duties?
how long
i
f"
,>
1
2
3
4
5
6
?
8
9
I0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
A. Reporter.
Q. And did you do hard news?
A. Yes, I did hard news.
Q, Did yo~ do commentary, as
A. No, sir.
Q. Just hard news?
A. Yes.
O. And you did hard news for
Magazine?
A. Basically research
And about how long
as a researcher?
A. That was a
Q. stringer.
A. I
at UPI, but
well?
Time, Time
for Time Magazine.
did you work for Time
part-time stringer.
HOW long was that?
think that was during the time I
I'm inexact about that, as well.
Q. Approximately a
A. Approximately a
And then you went
A. Yes.
Q. What is that?
year, more or less?
year, more or less,
was
to Chicago's American?
A. It was an afternoon daily.
O. And the name was thereafter
Chicago Today?
changed to
Ii
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
A. Right.
Q. And how long were you employed at the
American/Today?
A. This is a real guess. Four years,
three years.
O. That was a full-time employment, sir?
A. Yes.
O- And what were your duties there
A. Reporter.
Q. Did you have a by-line?
A. Yes.
O. You worked hard news?
A. Yes.
O. Did you write any editorials?
A. NO.
O. Did you do any analysis or commentary?
A. That's a difficult question. What do
you mean?
O. Do you do analysis or commentary now?
A. Yes.
O. What is that? What do you mean by that?
A. Well, I do commentary. I mean, I cover
events.
Q. What is the distinction between commentary
..++,i,+,, , 681814't76
12
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ll
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
and hard news?
A. I guess that depends on the story you are
talking about. I mean, you have to be a little more
specific.
See, the reason I hesitated before was I
didn't write a column. But if I am covering City
Nall and the covering demands some judgments, I
might describe that as commentary; you migh£ not.
It is a very fine line.
Q. In other words, in your hard news pieces,
you might vent a personal judgment? Is that what
you are saying?
A. Well, I wouldn't vent a judgment.
Q. You would write it?
A. I might say, "Mayor Washington, appearing
somewhat harassed by his Opposition, said today
that..."
I mean, that's kind of an analysis, would
you agree, or a comment? It's reporting.
It'S
reporting, analytical reporting.
O. Did you write --
A. It's reporting.
O. Did you write any editorials for the
Chicago American?
am,.,,,. • 681814477
13
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
lO
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
A. No.
O. Did you do a column?
A. NO.
O. And when you say what you did for the
Chicago American was reporting, is it fair to say
whether you made a comment about the subject of
your article you tried to be fair?
A. Always.
Q. Accurate?
A. Always.
And even when you made a comment, you
tried, to the best of your ability, to be objective?
A. I don*t mean to be difficult. B0t I don't
want to get stuck on the "comment" word which you
are referring to. I mean, I'm always objective, yes
Q. Okay.
And you left the Chicago Today to go to
WBBM TV as a writer in '64 or '657
A. Somewhere in there.
Q. And was that as a news
A. Yes.
Q. Save you been employed
any capacity other than in
station's News Department?
writer?
by WBBM TV in
connection with that
14
I
1
2
3
4
5
6
?
8 .
g
IO
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
Ig
20
21
22
23
24
A. NO.
O. And is it correct that you have been at
WBBM ever since?
A. No.
Q. All right. Tell me when did you leave?
A. I think I can tell you, if you want to
know specifically, by backing up.
Q. Okay. sure.
A. 13 years ago would have been 197- --
O. '717
A. '75. 13 years ago, '72.
13 from '84 could be '71, too.
A. A guess.
Q. Your best recollection. Lawyers don't
like guesses. Your best recollection.
MR. KLENK: DO the best you can. Let's move
Ono
THE WITNESS: But I don't want to be inaccurate.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. Mr, Jacobson, let me restate it because Z
want you to be confident about at least one thing
during this deposition.
I fully understand your inability to
pinpoint precise dates in your career. It is a
, ,2J,,28o,, 681814479
15
4
I
(
>
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
failing that I also share. So,
you these dates, all I want you
your best recollection.
I want you to -- indeed,
to and you have agreed to this --
when you look at
off by a year or
will understand.
Do you
A. Okay.
again, when I ask
to do is give me
I have asked you
at some later time
this transcript and you see you are
two or three, fix it and everybody
understand that, sir?
Best recollection?
Yes, sir.
A. 1969, left WBBM and went to WMAQ.
Q. WM -- say again.
A. MAQ.
Q. And how long were you at MAQ, sir?
A. TWO to three years.
Q. What did you do at MAQ?
A. I was a reporter and a commentator.
Is MAQ a television station?
A. Yes.
O. And at the time you were with BBM TV
from about '64 or '65 through '69 as a writer,
were you an on-the-air person?
A. Yes.
16
[
1
2
3
4
5
6
?
S
9
i0
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
O. And were you an on-air person at
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have a regular show?
A. I was on on a regular basis.
Q. Yes, sir. That's what I mean.
A. There was no Walter Jaoobson Show.
I was not a featured part of a specific
MAQ?
show
every day.
O. What program were you on on a regular
basis?
A. The news.
Q. Which news?
A. Various newscasts.
Q. How often toward the end, at least, of
that tour of duty did you appear in a given week?
A. Oh, five times out of seven.
Q. And when you were at MAQ, did you write,
as well as read the news?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that also true with respect to your
prior appearances on WBBM TV?
A. Yes. I wrote what I read.
O. Just so we are clear, does that refer to
both WBBM TV '64 through '69, as well as MAQ '69 to
17
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
i9
2O
21
22
23
24
'71 or '27
~. Yes,
Q, You wrote what you read?
A. X wrote what I read.
O. SO If you Head it, it meant that you
wrote it?
A. Right.
Q. NOW, sir, you said to me that for MAQ
you weze a reporter and a commentator?
A. Right.
Could you please explain to me what you
mean by the distinction between those two words?
A, AS a reporter, I was assigned to cover
City Hall, as an example. And I stood in front of
the City council chambers and reported events as
they played themselves out.
As a commentator, I was given the
latitude to interpret events.
5. Would it be correct to describe your role
as a reporter as one involving hard newsg
A. Yes.
O. And would it be correct to say that your
role as a commentator was not just reporting hard
news?
18
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
A. Not reporting hard news, that's correct.
Q. All right, sir. When you --
A. It included reporting hard news.
O- I take it you reported hard news and you
commented about it?
A. Okay.
O- YOU analyzed it, is that fair?
A. Yes.
Q. So you were engaged in news analysis?
A. Yes.
O. And when you did that, did you make
efforts that your viewers understood that you
were engaging in comment or analysis?
A° Yes.
Q. So that you took steps to assure that your
viewers wouldn't confuse Walter Jacobson, the
reporter, with Walter Jacobson, the commentator?
A. Right.
Q. What steps did you take so that they
would know when you were doing one thing and when
you were doing another?
A. I was introduced as a commentator and
have my signature over my face on the screen -- over
my chest on the screen. Underneath my signature, it
+e+,, , 681814483
b - 19
4'
1
2
3
4
5
6
?
8
9
I0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
says, "Perspective." It is always introduced as
Walter's Perspective. It is always followed
specifically by a commercial, and it i8 performed
at a place other than the anchor desk.
Q. I think we have a little confusion, but
it may be mine. So let me go back.
I take it that the answer that you
just gave me was with respect to your current
employment --
A. Right.
Q. -- is that right?
A. Right.
Q, Now, let me back up, sir, and ask you a
question about your employment with WMAQ.
When you were at MAQ and you did
reporting and --
A. Comment,
Q. -- and commenting, what steps, if any,
did you or the station take then to advise the
viewer that you were performing one role or the
other?
A. Similarily introduced as a commentator
and similarily performing from a place other than
the anchor desk. And, perhaps, but I'm not positive
2O
(
i
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
l?
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
A.
0.
A.
Q.
station
A.
0.
A.
identified
Q. Now, sir,
read station editorials?
A. NO,
O. Write them?
A. NO,
Participate in ----
ND.
as commentator by a word on the screen.
did you when you were at MAQ
-- editorials in any way?
No.
DO you in your current job write
editorials?
NO.
Do you read station editorials?
NO.
Q. DO you have anything to do with
station editorials?
A. Nothing.
Q. That is the prerogative of whom in
rout organization?
A. General manager.
O. Is that Mr. Cummings?
A. Yes.
MR. KLENK: Let's go off the recor~ for
{
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
lO
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
minute.
BY MR. LONDON:
O. Now,
(WHEREUPON, there was
interruption,}
sir, have you brought
a short
US totally up
to date on your resume with respect to your
employment and education? Are there any other
jobs that you have had that you haven't told us
about?
A. Summertime jobs, lifeguard.
Q. Other than that?
A. City News Bureau.
Q. Jobs subsequent to your education,
subsequent to graduating college.
A. NO.
Q. Nothing?
A. A variety of summertime in college jobs
in journalism.
0. So even in college, you worked in some
connection in the journalistic profession?
A. In high school, as well.
Did you work for professional
organizations or school organizations?
A. Both.
rW°[I;+, ~'°"+J+"5' ''/'~J+~'~+~'+, 9'-+.
e+<,,~o, .~e+++, • ,+,,,+.7+,2-,o++. G81+I~86
22
[
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
O. What professional organizations did
you work for in high school and college?
A. The suburban newspapers, north suburban
newspapers, the Winnetka Talk.
Q. When you say "suburban newspapers," is
that --
A. It was a Hollister -- I don't know who
owns it now -- but the Hollister chain of north
sir?
Was
suburban newspapers.
Q. When did you work for them,
A. High school summers.
Q. What were your duties?
A. Reporting high school sports.
Q. Anybody else you worked for?
that several summers?
A. Yes. I don't know how many specifically.
O. All right, sir. Anything else?
A. Yes. I worked for the City News Bureau
of Chicago, which is a news gathering.
Q. When did you work for them,
A. Summertime in college.
Q. What were your duties?
A. Reporting.
Q. Hard news?
sir?
art,,,.. . 681814487
23
f
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
A.
reporter
O.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
or whatever.
my job to get
for him.
of
Y~S.
I worked for the Chicago Daily News as a
for a columnist, Jack Mabley.
Would you spell that for me? Jack who?
Mabley, M-a-b-l-e-y.
And was that a single summer --
Yes.
---- or several summers?
Single summer.
What is a reporter for a columnist?
Research on the street and in the library
Wherever he needed information, it was
it. I was assigned to cover stories
Q. Have you finished?
your --
A. That's it.
--- employments
Have you told us all
in the field of
is with
A.
journalism?
A° TO the best of my memory, that's it.
Okay, sir.
Now, your current job, you have told us,
RBM TV and BBM Radio?
Right.
24
/"
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
Q. And what dO you do for BBM TV?
k. ~ a~ an anchorman and a commentator and
a reporter.
Q. Now, let's take those one at a time.
What is it that you do when you function
as a reporter for BBM TV?
A. I cover stories, report on daily events.
And do you do that on the air?
A. Sometimes.
O. And when you do it on the air, is it
always your own writing that you are reading?
A. NO. When I report on the air, it's not
a matter of writing. It's interviewing news makers
of the day on the air live.
Q. So your on-the-air reporting is
interviewing?
A. Yes.
Q. DO you do any reporting of hard news?
That is ha~d news,
Q. Interviewing is?
Ao Yes,
What else do you do other than
interviewing when yo~ are functioning as a
reporter on BBM TV?
g81 14489
25
%
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Soliciting information from other
scene,
air?
a.
reporters on the
O. On the
A. Yes.
Q. YOU are in a studio or a booth at the
time and the other reporters are at the location?
A. In our newsroom. I am in our newsroom.
Q. You are in the newsroom and the other
reporter is at the scene of the event?
A. Or the other reporter may be in
newsroom with me.
the
Q. What else do you do as a reporter?
A. I investigate. I do what reporters do.
Q. The investigation, is that done on air?
A. NO --
0. Have you told us --
A. -- not all the time.
Q. -- all of the things that you do when
you function as a reporter on camera?
A. On camera?
Yes, sir, on the air.
A. I interview. I solicit information.
I exchange information. I put information
into perspective as a reporterm and I disseminate
+ 26
¢
!
7
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
ll
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
information.
Q. NOW, just SO I am clear, is there any
distinction between the phrase "on air" or "on the
air" and "on camera" in your mind?
A. NO.
Q. Now, you indicated that you were a
commentator, as well as a reporter?
A. Yes.
Q. What is it that you do in that role?
A. I analyze news and interpret news.
O, And you do that on camera?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you write the material that you
read --
A. Yes.
0, ---- on camera?
A. Yes.
O. And when you do this commenting, is it
from a script?
A. Yes.
O. And you are responsible for writing
the script that you read on camera?
A. Right.
Q. And I think you have told
us before
27
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
that when you do serve as
the station take steps to
viewer knows that you are
hat at that time, is that
A. Right.
Q. And your
Perspective, is an
O.
A.
O.
respect
A.
Q.
sir?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
0.
A.
Q.
A.
a commentator, you and
see to it that the
wearing your commentator
correct?
show, Walter J~cobson's
example of that, is it not?
Yes.
And you also serve as an anchorman?
Right.
And tell us, please, what you do with
to that aspect o£ your work.
Disseminate information.
Does that involve appearing on
camera,
Yes,
Does it involve reading from a
Yes.
Do you write that script?
NO --
Somebody else does?
---- on OCCasion.
Mostly somebody else writes it?
Right.
script?
° 681814492
28
I
!
7
I.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
11
12
13
14"
15
16
L7
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
on
hard
Q*
your work
news?
A.
O.
A.
Q.
often do
A.
Q,
deal with
~revious
A.
O.
A.
O.
A.
O. You introduce other reporters who appear
camera, right?
A. Right.
Q. The anchorman phase of your work involves
news, correct?
A, Yes.
~ow, sir, I take it at least some of
as a commentator does not involve hard
Okay.
Is that right?
Mow do you define "hard"?
Well, let's go back,
When you serve as a~ anchorman -- how
you appear as an anchorman?
Twice a day.
And does the news you report frequently
events that have occurred that day or the
day?
As an anchor?
Yes, sir.
Yes.
Current events?
Right.
29
1
2
3
4
5
6
?
8
9
I0
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
O. Hot news?
A. Okay. Immediate news.
Q. Immediate news.
When you do a Perspective, you comment
about things that may well have OCCUrred months or
years ago, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. YOU give an analysis of events that are
not immediate or hot news or may not be?
A. Okay.
Some of them may be old?
A. Right.
Q. And you give your opinion about that, is
that right?
A. I give an experienced judgment.
Q. Okay. Your experienced Judgment is not
something you would call hard news; you would call
that your judgment, right?
A. Okay.
Q. Is that correct?
A. It is an experienced judgment applied to
essentially hard news.
O. I understand.
But you take pains to advise your viewer
30
i
/
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
1O
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
that what he or she is getting is Walter
judgment about something, correct?
A. Right.
Q. And you have described the several steps
take to communicate that to the
you and the station
viewer, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, is
fulfilling all of
commentator, and anchorman,
commitment of fairness?
A,
0.
A.
0.
of these
can, the
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
it correct to say that in
these roles of reporter,
you have an ethical
Absolutely.
Accuracy?
Right.
That you consider it your duty
roles to give your viewers, as
truth?
Jacobson's
in all
best you
Right.
A correct impression of time and place?
Right.
In all of these roles, you try to produce
honest and straightforward broadcasts, correct?
A. Right.
Could I -- what do you mean by
e~,,~., an,..,. , ~,~ Ts2-aoa~ G 81 $14 4 9 5
I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
"correct impression of time and place"? I am
confused by you~ question as 1 thought it out.
I said, "Yes."
Q, Well --
A, Just accurate, If you are asking
whetheg I try to be accurate and fair and
objective at all times, the answer is yes,
if that's what you mean by time and place.
Q. Well, you wouldn't, for example, tell
your viewers that something happened yesterday
I when, in fact, it happened three years ago,
would you?
A. I wouldn't lie, absolutely not.
Q. If you were reporting an event, you
would report it in such a Way so that the viewer
would receive a correct impression of when the
event occurred and where it occurred?
A. if I was dealing with dates, if dates
were important. ~ mean, ~ would never say anything
on the air that was knowingly dishonest.
I hear you.
A. Understand that.
Q. I hear you° But I want to come back
question about which you have some second
the
to
~zw2o, ~L.~l~ • (312.) 782d~087
32
f
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
thoughts about your answer,
MR. KLENK: Objection,
had second thoughts,
BY THE WITNESSz
A, I didn't understand your
BY MR. LONDONz
He didn't say he
question.
Q, All right. You don't understand what I
mean when I say a correct impression of time and
place, is that what you are saying?
A, Right.
O. When you broadcast as an anchorman and
you
are reporting on an event --
A. As an anchorman?
As an anchorman.
(Continuing) -- do you endeavor to
construct the broadcast in such a way so that
the viewer will have a correct impression of
the place the event took place that you are
reporting back?
A. I have to interrupt, because I don't
construct the broadcast. A producer constructs
the broadcast.
Q. So far as you know, do the producers who
construct the broadcasts that you read endeavor to
681814497
33
l
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
iI
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
give the viewers a correct impression of time and
time and place is essential to the
place?
A. If
story, yes.
Q. If it is
make no effort?
A. It's immaterial,
Immaterial.
not essential to the story,
immaterial.
they
BY
anchorman,
you
don't know who was making the judgment?
A. On?
Q. On the news that you were reading about
whether a correct impression of time and place was
material or not? Is that what you are saying?
And who makes the judgment as to whether
a correct impression of time and place is material?
A. I would imagine the producer; perhaps the
writer of the story.
MR. KLENK: Don't guess. If you know.
THE WITNESS:
A. I don't know.
MR. KLENK: Mr. London is not interested in
your guesses. He wants your best recollection.
BY MR. LONDON:
O. As you're working as an
I i
3 4
I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
A. I got to think. Okay?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. You know, what you have to do is he more
specific about what you mean when you are talking
about time and place. That's what is confusing me.
Do you want to give an example and maybe I
can be more specific? The time and place is vague
and confusing when it counts and when it doesn't
count.
What do you mean by your question?
I
will try to answer it.
Q. Well, do you think that --
A. Let's say, for example --
MR. KLENK: He is asking the questions.
BY MR, LONDON:
Q. We will ask it my way.
MR. KLE~K: You don't ask the questions.
You give the answers. Let Mr. London ask his
questions.
BY MR. LONDON:
O. Is it your view of your role when you are
writing the material to be broadcast, when you are
producing an element of a news broadcast, that it is
incumbent upon you to construct that broadcast
35
(
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
messaqe in such a way so that the viewer will
receive a correct and accurate impression Of when
and where the subject of your report occurred?
A. If the time and place are essential to
an understanding Of the story, the answer is yes.
Q. And if the time and place are not
essential to the understanding of the story, is
the answer no?
A. If time and place are not essential to
the story, they don't work into my considerations.
Q. And in stories that you write, is it
correct that it is you who decides whether time
and place are material?
A. That's accurate.
Q. And, therefore, it is
on stories that you write whether
to report time and place?
MR. KLENK: Excuse me.
Could you read back
and answer?
you who decides
it's necessary
the last question
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested
as follows:
"Q. And in stories that
36
D
4
i
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
yOU write, is it correct that
it is you who decides whether
time and place are material?
"A. That's accurate.
"0. And, therefore, it is
you who decides on stories that
you write whether it's necessary
to report time and place?")
MR. KLENK: TO me, Martin, it's the same
question.
MR. LONDON: If he thinks so, let him answer
it the same way.
BY THE WITNESS:
A. I need a distinction between --
MR. LONDON: See, he already thinks it's not
the same question.
BY THE WITNESS:
A. I need a distinction between commentary
and stories. I am not sure you understand what I
do or that I have made it clear enough.
When you said to me in stories that I
write, do I determine the importance of time and
*lace, I assumed you meant my commentary.
If you meant a news story, I would
i
I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
, 20
21
22
23
24
37
probably -- I would answer the question somewhat
differently.
BY MR. LONDON:
O. Well, give us the answer for the
commentary stuff that you write.
A. Okay.
Q. And give us the answer for the news
stuff that you write.
A. When I write a commentary, I determine
subject -- I determine -- I determine the necessity
of all the elements, including time and place, as
I write it.
And do you write news?
A. On occasion.
And when you write news, do you determine
the necessity for including in the news report those
elements?
A. It's more than a collegial decision. The
producer, the executive producer, and I will confer
about the elements in the story that are supposed to
be presented or that we wish to present.
O. So that I understand, I think you said
"It's more than a collegial decision."
Do you mean it is more of a collegial
38
I
2
3
4
5
6
?
8
9
I0
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
decision?
A. Yes.
O. SO that
sometimes
when you are writing news, you
with somebDdy else about wh~t
elements are necessary --
A, Yes, that's true.
Q. -- to be included in the story?
A. That's true.
But when you do the Walter Jacobson
Perspective, it is Walter Jacobson who makes the
decision?
A. Right.
Q. The buck stops there -- withdraw it.
MR. KLENK: There is no question, Walter.
Just wait for the next question, listen, and
answer it.
I BY MR. LONDON:
Q° In any event, is it correct that in
every role you have, you would never construct
a program that would lead the viewer to have an
erroneous i~pression Of time and place?
MR. KLENK: I object,
BY MR. LONDON~
Q. Is that correct?
39
(
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
MR, KLENK:
the different roles he
every r01e.
BY MR. LONDON:
O. You can't answer
every role you have?
A. Repeat the question.
IS it correct that in
you play in the WBBM enterprise,
i construct or create a broadcast
the viewer an erroneous --
MR. KLENK: Objection.
BY MR. LONDON:
from a broadcast,
that.
BY MR. LONDON:
O.
A.
THE
point.
BY THE WITNESS:
A. I mean.
He has made disti~ctlons between
had and you asked him about
that with respect to
every role that
you would never
that would give
Q. -- impression of time and place?
MR. KLENK: What impressions viewers take away
he is not competent to testify to
Can you answer that question?
NO.
WITNESS: You are making a
very good
I don't know what they are
, _6,,,.
681814504
~o, ~.ols e (312)782~087
4O
I
l
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
l0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
thinking when they see it. I would never knowingly
do anything dishonest on the air. Z just never
would do anything dishonest on the air, period.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. Do you try to give them a correct
impression Of the events?
A. I try to disseminate information. I am
not in the business of creating impressions. I
disseminate information.
I don't know whether you are going to
see a red tie or a blue tie. But I would never
give any misinformation knowingly.
Q. When you say you don't know whether I am
going to see a red tie or a blue tie, you do, as a
writer and a creative person, have in mind what it
is the viewer is likely to take away from what you
write,
A.
isn't it?
NO. I am disseminating information.
Q. Don't you present the broadcast in a way
that you would expect the viewer will see as a fair
presentation?
A. You know, I really cannot say what the
viewer will think when he or she watches television.
I write it and present it in a way that I consider
41
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
g
i0
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
to be accurate, fair, honest, and objective.
That's it.
O. And when you write it in a way that you
consider to be fair -- did you say honest, fair, and
objective?
A. Accurate.
O. Honest, fair, accurate, and objective.
If you think in your judgment that
mentioning the place an event occurred is a material
event in conveying an honest, fair, and accurate and
objective broadcast, you will include that in your
report, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And if you think that the time an event
occurred is necessary to yield an honest, fair,
accurate, and objective report, you will include
that event in your broadcast?
MR. KLENK: I am going to object to the
question. I think we have been going over this
ground.
You can answer it again and let's move
BY THE WITNESS~
A. Okay. Yes.
MR. KLENKz Could we take a short break?
, 681814506
42
7
1
2
3
4
5
S
7
8
9
I0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
BY MR.
MR.
(WHEREUPON, a recess was had.)
LONDON: Would you mark this please, Julie?
(WHEREUPON, said document was
marked Jacobson Deposition Exhibit
NO. I, for identification, as of
7/12/84.)
LONDON:
Q. Have you ever seen that document Before?
(WHEREUPON, the document was
tendered to the witness.)
MR. KLENK: Take a look at the whole thing.
THE WITNESS: All of this?
MR. KLENK: Figure OUt what it is before you
ire an answer.
TEE WITNESS: Well, I was about to look at it.
didn't even get past the first line.
(WHEREUPON, there was a short
interruption.)
BY THE WITNESS:
A. I have seen this.
BY MR. LONDON:
O- Can you
sir?
tell us what it is, please,
A. Well, it's production standards. I
681814507
43
m
f
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
think this is what the Blue Book is.
Whose production standards?
A. CBS Stations.
Is this, what you c~ll the B~ue Nook,
the standards for CBN Television News?
A. I don't know how they define it.
O- Let me show you a page that is
captioned, "CBS Television Stations News
Standards."
DO you
A. Yes.
Q. Do you understand what this package --
believe, check me if I'm wrong, that this document
I
W~s
see that?
BY
It
produced by you ~d your CO-Defendant.
A. What do you mean?
MR. KLENK: He doesn't understand,
Yes.
MR. LONDON:
Q. ~ got this ~ocu~ent from your
Was produced by CBS and by you
MR. LONDON~
MR. KLENK:
MR. LONDON:
Q.
Is that correct,
That's correct.
lawyers.
in this litigation.
Mr. Klenk?
BY
So this is the CB$ Televisio~ Stations
4.4
l
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
News
Q,
A.
Q.
A.
O.
A.
Q.
A.
cemember
O.
read it
A.
Q.
Standards book, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. It is updated from time
A. I don't know.
Q° Have you ever read it?
A. I read it.
Q. Row long ago?
A. I don't know.
Not recently?
I don't remember.
Recently?
Recently being?
Did you read it in the last year?
No.
Did you read it in the last two years?
I can't gay that, Mr. London. I don't
when I read it last.
Well, is it possible that you haven't
in the last five years? Is it possible?
Possible.
All right, sir. But you do have a
recollection of reading it at some time?
Ao Yes.
Have you made any effort
to time, is it not?
to comply with
,,,2 9L.
art.,,,,, , 681814505
45
f
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
those standards in your years at BBM?
A. Sure.
MR. KLENK: Objection. I mean, he has been
there -- it is a very broad question. Ss has
been
there 16 years on and off.
He answered the question.
BY MR. LONDONz
O~ Since 1980, have you
comply with those standards?
made any effort
A. Why don't you tell me which standard
I can tell you in which specific case I have
complied or not complied?
Q. As you sit here
any time in the last four
the standards in Exhibit
A. NO. I --
MR. KLENK: The man
years.
BY THE WITNESS:
A. There's not a list
I mean --
MR. KLENK: Let him
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. LONDON|
to
and
now, are you aware of
years when you violated
i?
hasn't read them for five
of numbers.
ask the question.
46
1
2
3
4
5
6
?
8
g
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q, Now, sir, if you will t~rn
to the page which is marked with --
MR. LONDON: Off the record,
in Exhibit i
(WHEREUPON, discussion was had
off the record.)
BY ME. LONDON:
Q. Could you turn to the page in the exhibit
that is marked 000068? It is entitled, "Preface."
DO you see it, sir?
A. Yes.
And the first line reads, "The CTS News
Standards is a set of basic guidelines to insure
honest and straightforward news and informational
broadcasts," close quote.
Is it fair to say that whenever it is that
you last read these standards you understood them to
a set of basic guidelines to
b~oadcasts?
thought five years
be that; that is,
insure honest and straightforward
Ao I don't remember what I
ago when I read this page.
O. SO you cannot say that it was your
impression that these guidelines were to insure
honest and straightforward broadcasts?
A. I cannot say when I read these five years
47
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
ago what I tho~laht, honest to God.
Q. Did you ever believe that these CBS news
standardg had anything to do with honest and
straightforward news broadcasting?
DO I believe that now7
Yes,
Ao Yes. It says it°
But prior to the time when you read it at
this deposition table this morning, are you unable
to say that it was ever your belief that that was
the case?
A. I h~ve to -- I c~n't Say, Mr. Londona what
I thought and believed five years ago or six or four
when I read it, really.
I believe the words now. I probably
believed them then.
Q. In any event, you certainly always tried
to produce honest and straightforward news and
informatiQnal broadcasts, is that correct?
MR. KLENKz We have been over this already.
BY THE WITNESS:
A. That's correct.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. Now, sir, would you turn to Page 717 It
o s 2 7,2-soe 681S14512
48
l
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
has got the rubber stamped 71 and
typewritten 3 at the bottom.
it has got a
I direct your attention to the quoted
material in the next to the last paragraph of the
page. I want to read a sentence to you and I want
you to tell me whether it coincides with your view
of your role as an employee of WBBM TV.
"The analyst should attempt to clear up
any contradictions within the known record, should
fairly present both sides of controversial questions
and, in short, should give the best available
information upon which listeners can make up their
own minds," close quote.
DO you see that sentence, sir?
A. I do.
Q. Is that your view, too, that a news
analyst should fairly present both sides of
controversial questions?
A. I'd have to say that it depends on the
controversial question, the degree of controversy.
Q. You think in some instances, whatever,
without defining what they are, that an analyst
need not fairly present both sides of controversial
questions?
et .. o GS18145t3
49
i
k-
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
g
i0
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
Ig
20
21
22
23
24
A. Wnw. r.~% me think of an example.
MR. KLENK! Could you read back the prior
question and answer, please? I lost it.
(WNEEEU?ON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested
as follows:
"Q, Is that your view, too,
that a news analyst should fairly
present both sides of controversial
questions?
"A. I'd have to say that it
depends on the controversial question
the degree of controversy.
"Q. You think in ~ome instances
whatever, without defining what they
are, that an analyst need not fairly
present both sides of controversial
questions?=')
BY THE WITNESS:
A. That's right.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. And who makes the judgment that -- in your
view, who should make the judgment that in certain
cases a~ analyst need ~ot fairly present both sides
5O
F
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
of a controversial question?
A, My judgment.
And what are the criteria by which you
exercise that Judgment?
A. If an anchorman reads a story about a
controversy over seat belts and presents both sides
of the controversy and then introduces the
commentator who then pr~lents his analysis of the
controversy, it is unnecessary for the commentator
to repeat what the anchorman just did, which was,
present both sides. That's what I mean.
O- SO that the only exception that you
would make i8 if in the same broadcast another
reporter or another on-air personage gave a fair
)resentation of both sides, then it is hot necessary
that the next speaker do the same thing, is that
correct?
K. Well, that's correct.
Q. But you would agree that within any
broadcast, within any news analysis, it is incumbent
upon the presenter of that news analysis to fairly
preJent both sides of a controversial question7
A. Yes.
And let me read the next sentence.
CWor[,, 681814515
~o, ~,ots • C3121782~087
!
51
%
g"
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
A. You Mnow what, you ~ust
"controversial question" before 1
answer that substantively°
Q° ~ mean my questi~ in
define
could really
the same way that
the CBS news standards mean it in their Exhibit l
which they have promulgated.
A. ~ don't know if I e~ a~swer the
question+
Q. Okay. So you are not sure you are able
to comply with this news standard because you don't
understand it, is that correct7
MR. KLENK: NO. His testimony was that he
eouldn'~ answer your question.
THE WITNESS: Right.
BY MR° LONDON:
O- Are you able to comply with this
standard that we have just read o~ the record
relating to fair presentation of both sides of
controversial questions?
A. Say that again.
Q. Are you able to comply with this
standard promulgated by CBS that we have just
read, that is, the one that requires the fair
~resentation of both sides of controversial
e+<+.o, Je++,,+,,. ,, GSIS14516
52
%
l
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
g
10
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
questions?
A. There is a lot of verbiage here. In
order for me to answer your question, you have
got to 9ire me an example of how X would or would
not apply. Okay? Because, yes, generally I could
comply with the production standards, of ~ourse.
Q* YOU are required to, aren't yo~, as an
employee of CBS? Aren't you?
A. Yem. But somebody has to make an
assessment, ~nd it's neve~ happened to me h~fore,
of whether there is co~plla~ce or ~Ot compliance.
SO there has to b~ an issue over which the questio~
is raised about compliance,
Q. But you recognize ~s an e~ployee of CBS
that first you -- you certainly recognize it now
that CBB has issued these standards as a guideline
to insure honest and straightforwar~ news reporting.
correct?
A, TO be applied to specific instances.
Q. Okay. And you understand that ~ith that
goal, CBS has promulgated a standard that says that
the analyst should fairly present both sides of
controversial questions? You understand they have
do~e that~ correct?
53
I
4
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
MR.
KDENK: Excuse me.
dust ask him One question at a time.
please, Mr. London.
MR. LONPON: That is the question.
BY MR. LONDON~
Q. You understand they have done that?
A. Well, I got confused between two
questions.
Q. YOU understand that CBB has promulgated
a set of standards that says, among other things,
an analyst should fairly present both sides of
controversial questlons7
A, It is clear to me that CBB has
promulgated these production standards.
Q. And it is clear to you that you are
obliged as a CBS employee to comply, co:rect?
A. ~t is clear tO m~ that Tt us ~n e~ployee
of CBS -- yes.
Q. DO you have any special exemption OF
license to depart from the CBS news standards?
A. NO.
Q. Has anybody in CBS ever said to you in
wo~ds or substance that they would not oblige you,
Walter Jacobson, to follow the same news standards
T
i
2
S
4
5
6
?
8
9
10
Ii
12
13
14
15
15
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
54
that other mmployees were obliged to follow?
A. NO.
~ns anybody ever told you that they
were going ~o bend the rules for your favor?
A* NO.
Q. That they
differently for you
Cronkite or anybody
A. NO.
NOW, sir,
were going to interpret them
thin they would for a Walter
else?
X wonder if you would turn
to Page If0, the rubber stamp, of this exhibit
which has a typewritten 38 in the lower rlght-hand
corner. The top of the page says, "Production
Standards,"
MOU see that, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And the caption in
"Staging"?
A. Right.
Q. I want to read the top two lines and then
the top subparagraph and ask you a question about it
Staging: "Staging is prohibited. CTS
Ibroadcasts must be just what they purport to be.
We report facts______~exactl as they occur." UndezscoEe
the upper left says,
55
I
2
3
4
5
5
7
8
9
I0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
IB
19
20
21
22
23
24
"exactly," "We do no~," underscore "not," "create
or change them. It is of the utmolt importance,
therefore, that these basic principles he adhered to
scrupulously by all CTS personnel:
"Say nothing and do nothing that may
give the viewer or listener an impression of
time, place, event o~ person which varies from
the facts actually seen, heard and recorded by
OUr equipment," close quote,
Do you subscribe -- do you, Walter
Jacobson, subscribe to that standard?
A. I do.
Q. Rave you always done so?
A. I have, to the best of my recollection,
Q. And, ~ow, upon seeing that standard set
forth in the CBS guidelines, you ate able to answer
that question, even though it requires you to know
something about the impression you are going to
create on the viewer?
A. NO, no,
MR. KLENK: NO.
that's his testimony.
"THE WITNESS: I lost
BY MR. LONDON:
Objection. I
that,
don't think
681B14520
56
I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
Ii
12
i3
14
~5
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
O. Okay. Your testimony now is --
A. Right now?
Q. As you sit here this morning --
A. Yes.
-- your testimony is that you do
comply
standard?
A.
done
and you always have complied with the
I cannot tell you what I have always
in 16 years of broadcasting.
Q. The best of your recollection.
A. You asked me whether I -- whether
I
understand and agree -- I think was your word --
with these standards.
My answer to that question is yes.
Q. Have you tried to comply with them?
A. Absolutely.
And you are able to answer that question
absolutely, even though the standard speaks about an
impression that is going to be created with the
viewer, right?
You know what "i~pression" mea~s here?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. You just didn't know what it meant when
I asked it?
C~o, 9S~, . :3,2;,a2.e087 GS 1 3 1 4 5 9 J_
57
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
11
12
13
14
IS
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
A. NO. Your question is different. They
are now different. So maybe you better olarify
them.
This says that one shall not vary the
f~ts from the facts aotua~ly seen. You before
were asking me what I thought people who viewed
• y broadcast might think. To me, those are
different speclfically.
I would not vary a fact, period, knowingly
or o~ purpose, of cO~T$~,
Q, You would not say or do anything that
might give the viewer an impression of time, plade,
event or person which varies the facts, is that
correct7
A. ~ ~o~ld not vary a fa~t, period.
Would you say or do anything that
might give the viewer Or listener an impression
of time or place which varied the fact?
A. I got to repeat it, Mr. London.
O. You oan't anmw~r my gUQstiDn?
A. Well, I would not vary a fact.
Q. You would not do anything that
violated this standard on Page llO Qf
Exhibit i, correct?
• 681814522
58
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
A. I would not knowingly violate a CBS
standard, no.
Q. As far as you know, you haven't done
so, correct?
A. Right.
Q. Now, sir, if you would turn back to
Page 71 of this exhibit, which has a typewritten 3
in the lower right-hand ~orner, please, I want to
read to yeu another sentence which follows up t~e
sentence I read to you just before.
"Ideally, in the case of controversial
issues, the audience should be left with no
impression as to which side the analyst himself
actually favors ..., " close quote.
Rave I read that correctly, sir?
MR. KLENK: We will stipulate that you can
readl Mr. London.
BY MR. LONDON:
Do you adhere to that
Ao Oh, Mr. London.
Yes, Mr. Jacobson?
A. You know~ that statement
1948. I think, in all due respect
that it is almost impossible
standard?
was made in
to Paul White,
to determine what
59
f
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
kind ~ ~v-~cc!en ycu
person who is
impressions
~ade.
A
llfetime of
MR. KLENK=
answer them,
MR. LONDON:
please?
are 9oing to leave with a
watching television, because
come from within, as much as they
viewer brings to his set a whole
impressions, right?
He asks the questions. Just
Could you repeat my question,
are
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested
as follows:
"Q. Do you adhere to that
standard?")
THE WITNESS: Now read the answer.
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested
as followsl
"O. Do you adhere to that
standard?
"A. Oh, Mr. London.
"Q. Yes, Mr. Jacobson?
"A. You know, that statement
60
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
29
24
was made in 1948. I think, in all
due reepect to Paul White, that it
is almost impossible to determine
what kind of impression you are
going to leave with a person who
is watching television, because
impressions come from within, as
much as they are made.
"A viewer brings to his set
a whole lifetime of impressions,
right?" )
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. DO you try to adhere to the standard?
A. I try to adhere to the CBS standards, no
question about that.
Let me read you the next sentence.
"I~ both news and news analysis, the go~l
of the news broadcaster or the news analyst must be
objectivity." close quote.
DO you adhere to that standard?
A. I try to adhere to all the -- yes.
Now, sir, was it your judgment in
November of 1981 --
A. Could I say that if you had gone one
, 681814525
f
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
iI
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
sentence further, you would have read,
we will recognize that human nature is
no newsman is entirely free from his
prejudices, experience," et cetera.
~o on. Tinish.
A. "... and opinions
i00 percent objectivity may
"I think
such that
own personal
and that, accordingly,
not always be possible."
Finish the paragraph.
A. That's all I had to say.
O. Finish the paragraph, please.
A, "But the important factor is that
the
news broadcaster and the Mews analyst ~st have the
will and the intent to be objective. That will and
that intent, genuinely held and deeply instilled in
him, is the best assurance of objectivity. His aim
should be to make it possible for the listener to
know the facts and to weigh them carefully so that
! he can better make up his own mind," from a speech
made in 1954 by Mr. Paley.
O. X wonder if you could Just read the next
sentence, too.
~. "It is recognized that the distinction
between news analysis and editorializing may be hard
~o draw, due to the fact that a well-knit analysis
62
I
r
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
may
may
point toward a conclusion and in that Tespect
resemble editorialization."
Q, One more sentence,
A. "When this occur~ special attention must
be paid by the analyst to his ahoi~e of language in
order to make clea~ that no editorialization is
meant."
Q, Thank you, s~r.
Now, when you reported
on November llth,
1981, that the people who sold Viceroy cigarettes
were "liars," in quotes, did you then believe that
that was an effort at objectivity on your part?
A, You want me to recall exactly what I was
thinking in 1981 when Z wrote a line?
Q. I just want to know whether Or not you
can. Maybe you have no recollection, Then say you
have no recollection. I don't want yo~ to remember
anything you don't remember,
1 just want to know if you have a
recollection whether in 1981 when you called
the manufacturers of Viceroy cigarettes liars, you
were attempting then to be objective.
A. I don't remember what I was thinking now
when ~ wrote that thre~ ~d a half yeats ago.
at,',,..,. , 681814527
63
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
i2
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q. Can you recall whether when you wrote the
November ii, 1981, script, you were trying fairly to
present both sides of a question?
A. I don't remember what I was thinking when
wrote that script. It's hard to remember three
and a half years ago.
Q. You don't remember
what was in your
mind?
A. Night.
Q. You do remember you wrote the script,
though?
A. I don't remember writing it. I do
see it.
O. You don't remember writing it?
A. Yes. I mean, I don't remember sitting at
my typewriter, what I was thinking, and how my hands
were working.
I see the script. It has a date. I wrote
it, obviously. And I remember being involved in a
series of reports on that subject.
Q. But you don't remember the
up to that?
A. I remember some of them.
Q. You remembe~ some of them?
events leading
64
I
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
A. Well, what is your question?
O. Do yo~ remember some of the events leading
up to your writing the script?
A. Yes.
O. DO you have any recollection of dise~ssin9
with anybody at the time preliminary to the airing
of that ~articular broadcast the question of
objectivity?
A. Repeat the question.
O. Yes, sir. I will rephrase it.
I am referring now in the next series of
questions, you will understand, to the broadcast of
November II, 1981, on the Perspective. Will yo~
understand that fo~ the next series of questions,
*lezse?
A. Yes.
Q. With respect to that broadcast, do you
lave eny recollection of speaking to anyone about
the subject of objectivity?
A. No.
Q. DO you have any recollectlon of speakin9
to anyone on the matter of faiEn~ss?
A, ~o specific ~e~oll~ti~n.
DO yo~ h~ve any general rQcollection?
• (;81814529
65
%.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
iO
11
11
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q. Do you have any recollection of speaking
to anyone on the subject of presenting both sides
of a question?
A. NO, no recollection of conversations.
Q. DO you have any recollection of
thinking about fairness?
A. l can't remember what I was thinking --
DO you have any recollection --
A. -- three and a half years ago.
Q. -- of thinking about objectivity?
A. " AS I was writing that script?
Yes, sir.
A. NO.
Or thinking about presenting both sides
of the question?
I can't remember what I was thinking.
DO you ba~e ~ny reuollection of
communicating in writing with anybody or anybody
communicating in writing with you On the questio~
of objectivity?
NO.
Fairness?
A. NO.
~,o -.,: ..._.,o..._,.~ ,~ ~4=,~"--~==, d-o. 681814 530
66
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
II
12
13
14
15
16
I?
18
Ig
20
21
22
23
24
O. Presenting both sides?
A* NO, I don't.
Mr. Jacobson, you have known for several
weeks that you were going to be depomed, at least
several weeks?
A. Yes.
Could you tell me what you have done to
prepare for this d~posltion?
A. Nothing, essentially nothing.
O- You read nothing?
A. I read my commentaries over.
0. The commentary that you delivered on
November Ii?
A. The three of them.
Q. Dated November 9, November i0. and
November ii? I'm not sure Of the dates.
Why
don't we mark them?
MR. KLENK: Good idea.
BY
(WBEREUPO~, said documents
were marked Jacobson Deposition
Exhibit NOS. 2, 3, and 4, for
identification, as of 7/12/84.)
MR. LONDON:
O- I show
you, sir, Exhibits 2, 3, and 4
~o, ~t~ • (312)782.8oe7
67
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20"
21
22
23
24
for identification.
(WHEREUPON, the documents
tendered to the witness.)
BY ME. LONDON:
were
Q. Is it correct those are the texts of
the three broadcasts you have i~ mind?
A. I don't have the tape here to compare,
but I presume they are very close.
Q. I will tell you the~e were documents
produced by your counsel to us, And when you
accept that, subject to correction, these are the
texts of your broadcasts, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it correct, then, that you looked at
the text of the three broadcasts represented by
Exhibits 2, 3, and 4 --
A. Right.
Q. -- to prepare for
A. Yes.
What else?
A. I read -- I read
Which part?
A. The part that contained
in the commentary.
this deposition?
part of the FTC report.
the quote that was
u~
1
2
3
4
S
6
7
8
9
lO
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
O,
A. NO.
O - Those
looked at?
A.
O.
A.
O.
Anything else?
are the only pieces
of paper you
Yes.
Did you speak to anybody?
What does that mean?
Did you speak to anybody in connection
with this deposition?
A. I spoke to Gary and Jim, who said come
here, and --
Q. I didn't ask you what they said to you.
MR. KLENK: He j~s~ wants to know who you
spoke with.
BY MR. LONDON:
~. I asked you who you spoke to. You
spoke
to Mr. Klenk, who is your lawyer here?
A. Right, right.
Q. And Gary is who?
A. Gary Cummings, the General manager.
O. Tell me about your conversation with
Mr. Cummings.
MR. KLENK: objection, attorney-client
privilege.
69
1
2
3
4
5
5
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
L5
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
.... .~*,o
manager.
MR. KLENK:
this case.
MR. LONDON: Who
MR. KL~NK: CBS.
on-the-spot agent
MR. LONDON:
enjoy?
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. Who w~s
Mr. Cummings?
MR. KLENK:
BY THZ W~TNESS:
A- Mr. Klenk,
BY MR. LONDON:
Anybody else?
A- NO.
And when did
Yesterday.
And how long
A. Ten minutes.
Where was it?
A. CBS,
Mr. Cummings is the station
Yes. He is a Defendant in
is a defendant?
me is the managing
for CBS.
So what privilege does he
Tell whim who
that conversation occur?
did it last?
681514534
~;~fa, ff[[~,~, • ('J12)?82-eoa7
7O
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
g
i0
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q. Did you speak
A. Yes.
O. Who?
A. Tom Morsch.
Q. Who is he?
A. An attorney.
Q. Sidley & Austin?
A, Yes.
MR. KLENK: Yes.
BY MR. LONDON~
O. When did you Speak
K, CBS, sa~e place.
to anybody else?
with him?
Q. When?
A. Yesterday.
Bow long did that
A. Hour, off and on.
Q. Did you speak with anybody
the subject of this litigation?
A. Radutzky.
O. When did you speak
A. Yesterday.
Where was that?
A. In the newsroom.
Q. Who was present i~
conversation last7
else about
with him?
this conversation?
~2o. -~u • ~3721781.808T
71
C
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2D
21
22
23
24
A.
whole newsroom.
confined.
Q.
A.
Q.
to you?
A.
Well, who was present was virtually the
I mean, it wasn't in any sense
It was just in the newsroom.
How long did that conversation last?
About ten seconds.
What did you say to him; what did he
He said, "You're going in tomorrow?"
And I say, "Yes."
say
He said,
London's tough."
O. What did
A. "I can't
I said to him. I
Q. Did you
this deposition?
A. NO.
Q. Did you
A° No.
Q. Look at
A, No.
MR. LONDON:
"Just be careful, because
you say to him?
wait" -- I don't remember what
am only being facetious. Okay.
do anything else to prepare for
speak to anybody else?
any other pieces of paper?
Jim, could you produce for me
the second document that he told us about? He said
he looked at two things. One, he looked at the
art,,... , ,2jra2-ao r 681814536
72
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
lO
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
MR. KLENK:
MR. KLENK:
4 and 5.
EY MR. LOHDOE:
I show you,
two, he looked at --
I will do it right now.
(WHEREUPON, there was a short
interruption.)
This is it. It's Radutzky Exhibits
sir, documents that Rave been
marked as Radutzky Exhibits 4 and 5 for
ide~tificatian on ~une 28th, 1984.
Are these the documents that you looked
a~ in preparation for this deposition?
(WEEREUPONI th~ documents were
tendered to the witness.)
BY TEE WITNESS=
A. Yes,
BY MR. LONDON=
Q° H~ve you now given us your total
conversation, aJ best you recall it, with Radutzky
on the subject of this deposition?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know anythin9 about what
Radutzky testified to at his deposition?
A. I do not.
it is
681814537
73
t
I
2
3
4
$
6
7
8
9
1O
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q. You have no information on that subject
at all, sir?
K. No, sir.
Q. When you ~aid that you reviewe~ the
broadcasts, the three broadcasts, in preparation
for this deposition, I take it you did not review
them in the form they are now before you
2, 3, and 4, is that correct?
A. That's what I did review.
0. What is it that you reviewed?
A. These three exhibits.
O. In the form that they are currently in?
Right.
You didn't look at the tapes?
Right.
Turning your attention back, sir, if I
do you have a recollection of when
a Perspective or a
subject of tobacco
Ao
O.
A.
O-
may, to 1981,
you first thought about doing
series of Perspectives on the
or cigarettes?
A. I cannot -- I cannot recall
O- Can you tell us approximately
prior to the time the show was aired?
A° NO, I can't,
in Exhibits
that.
how long
74
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
O. W~I 1 r=n you tell us whether it was
more than a few days?
A. Before they were on the air?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes. ~ can tell you that, not because I
recall it, but because it would have been impossible
to do all the research and get it on.
Q. Was it more than a few weeks?
A. I can't say that for sure.
Q. So it may have been, but a few weeks
from the germination of the idea to the production
and the broadcast, correc%?
A. That's possible.
Q. And you just don't remember one way or
the other?
A. That's right.
Q. DO you remember whose idea it was?
A. NO, I don't.
Q. Who did the research?
A. Radutzky did the research.
O. Do you have any recollection of discussing
the matter with him while he was researching it?
A. I don't specifically recall conversations.
Q. Do you generally recall conversations?
e,:,~o. ~,. , ¢3,2,~,,-,o,T 6 8 1 S 14 5 3 9
75
f
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
A. ! don't remember -- I don't ~emember that.
O. No recollection of any conversations with
him?
A. Ho. Well, I mean, you said specifically
and generally, YOU know, Z don't remember at what
point I talked to Radutzky or at what point I did
not.
I assume that there must have been some
conversations.
Q. You assume there must have been some
conversations?
A. Of course.
Q. But is it your testimony, as I understand
it, that you don't remember them?
A. That's right. I don't remember the
conversations.
Q. YO~ don't remembe~ their time, their
number, or their substance, is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, sir, what was Mr, Radutzky's
with the station in the fall of 19817
A, He was a researcher assigned to the
Perspective Unit of WBBM TV,
Q. And how long had he been in that
job
,"Wot[.,, ~.~o~+,j,.+~ ,,+,£ =4,..~.~.+., J~. 6 81 S 14 5 4 0
C~, J£~oa • r3~2; Te2.eoe7
76
t
f
1
2
3
4
5
6
?
8
9
I0
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
in the fall of '81?
don't know. l can't remember that.
More years or fewer years than you?
Fewer.
Many fewer?
When was it; fall of 'BI?
Yes, sir.
Many fewer.
You had been there approximately ten
the time, right; at least you ha~ been
capacity
K.
Q.
A.
O.
A.
Q.
A,
O.
yea~8 at
BBM?
at
A. Between eight and ten.
Q. For how many years had you been doing
the Walter Jacobson Perspective?
A. The whole time,
Q. You did the Perspective the moment you
came back with BBM, is that correct?
A. Close, close.
O. And the Perspective is aired how many
tames a week?
A. Approximately ten, eight to ten,
O. Is that five programs?
A. Yes.
Q. Each program is rebroadcast the
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
lg
20
21
22
23
24
following day?
A. Each Perspective is broadcast the
following day which would add up to ken.
Q. Monday through Frlday?
A, Yes,
Q. All done from scripts?
A. Yes.
Q. That you write?
A. Yes.
Q. And you are solely responsible for the
content of those scripts?
A. What does that mean?
Q. I mean, you are the -- you have the
last word?
A. What doel that mean?
O. Is there anybody in the station who has
the authority to reject you~ script?
A* Yes.
Q. Who is that?
A. The news director and the general manager.
0. So the news director and the general
manager review your scripts before they are aired?
Ao Yes.
Q. Every time?
cW,,t[,. ='?,,~.,.~,~ ,,J ,=,'t,,,,,a,,u,, _q,,,.
e~,..~., arab,,, . ~,~,~e2-,os, 681814542
78
\
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
S
9
iO
iI
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
Ig
20
21
22
23
24
A. C~n't say for sure.
O. But that's their job?
A. Don't know what their Job is,
O. That'S their general practice?
A. My general practice is to give the script
to the general manager and the news director,
Q. And who was the general manager at the
time --
A. Peter L~nd.
O. -- in 19817
A. Peter Lund,
MR. KLENK: Give him your best recollection.
BY THE WITNESS:
A. Peter Lund.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. And who was the news managern news
director?
A. My best recollection is Frank Gardner.
Q. And do you have a recollection of
departing from that general practice with respect
to Exhibit 4 for this deposition?
A, NO recollection what happened between
5:30 an~ 6:30 that night, which is ordinarily the
time my scripts go to the news director,
79
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ll
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
O. What time is the program aired?
A. i0 o'clock for the first time and
6 o'clock the following time, the following day.
ZS it aired live or on tape~
Live at i0 o'clock and tape the next
day at 6:00.
0- And it is your regular practice to
submit the script that is to be aired live at
10:00 to the general manager and the news
director at 5:30 that day, the day of the
broadcast?
A. The general practice is for me to give
my script to an assistant who takes it. Well, I
say that because he could have lost it, you know.
O. Your general practice is to gave the
s~ript at 5:30 p.m. --
A. Or 6:30 when I finish it.
-- or 6:30 p.m. to somebody who carries
it into the office Of the general manager --
A* No -- yes.
-- and the news director, who are on
same premises as you?
A. Right.
~. On th~ s~me floor?
the
aa'.,,.,. . 681814544
bU
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
A. NO, News director --
O. Same building?
A. Yeg.
O. And it is your
no.
testimony that
with respect
to November 11, 1981, you have no recollection of
any departure from your general practice, is that
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, sir, did the general manager or the
news director say anything to you about this
broadcast prior to the broadcast?
A. I don't ~emember.
Q. No ~ecollection one way or the other?
A. No.
Q. All right, sir. Whose responsibility was
it to supervise Mr. Radutzky?
A. Mine.
Q. And did Mr. Radutzky prepare any drafts
or outlines with respect to this November II, 1981,
broadcast?
A. TO the best of my recollection, he
prepared sheets of typewritten paper. I don't
know whether they were scripts or whatever the
word you used. I don't know what they were.
(WOE/,,
• 681814545
J
!
f
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
IO
ii
12
13
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
I mean, I can't recall what they were,
Q. But you do --
A. I do have a recollection of receiving
typewritten material from Michael.
Q. And the typewritten material
to, sir, relates to this broadcast, is
A. Yes°
MR. LONDON:
exhibit, please?
you referred
that correct?
Would you mark this as the next
(WHEREUPON, said document was
marked Jacobson Deposition Exhibit
No. 5, for identification,
as of 7/12/84.)
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. I show you, sir, a document that the
court reporter has just marked as Jacobson
Deposition Exhibit NO. 5 that bears your lawyer's
stamp Document NO. 1203, et seq., at the bottom.
DO you see where it says up at the top,
as best as I can read from this c0py, "An Outline"?
(NUE~EUPON, the document w~s
tendered to the witness.)
BY THE WITNESS:
A. Oh, "An Outline," yes.
6 1814546
~z
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
BY
So
document
BY
-- that
MR. LONDON:
MR. KLENK:
MR. LONDON:
Q.
MR. I.ONDOW~
Q. It is my understanding -- and I tell you
that you should know what I know about this
it was produced by you~ lawyers.
Is that correct, Mr. Klenk?
That's correct.
And while I wasn't here yesterday or on
previous dmys, I understand it was also marked at
the doposition of Mr. Radutzky, but I don't know
what number.
MR. KLENK: That's correct. I don't recall
what number, either.
MR. LONDON= I think it's also correct that
Mr. Radutzky testified that he is the author of
this document and he gave it to Mr. Jacobson, is
that correct, sir?
MR. KDENK: Am I the witness? I think that
that's correct.
MR. LONDON~ Okay.
Off the record.
BY MR. LONDON:
(WHEREUPON, discussion was
off the record.)
ha~
83
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
1O
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q. N~w. sir, I show you Exhibit 5
deposition and ask whether this document
your recollection about whether
gave you an outline with regard
broadcasts?
A. This (indicating)?
MR. KLENK: Read the whole thing.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. Take your time. I don't mean to rush
yOU.
okay
BY MR.
of this
refreshes
or not Mr. Radutzky
to the cigarette
BY
DO you want a recess to read it2 It's
with me.
(WHEREUPON, a recess was had.)
LONDON:
DO you remember the question?
Q.
THE WITNESS:
A. This is a Eadutzky outline and I can
see that. I have a vague memory of -- yes, it
is. Okay.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. DO you have any recollection of how much
in advance of the broadcast on November ii, 1981,
you got this Outline from Mr. Eadutzky?
A. NO, I don't.
. G8:1.814548
~4
I
T
I
1
2
3
4
5
6
?
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q. I wish you would turn, please, sir j to
the page that's marked 1208. I wonder if you
could read, please, the second sentence on the
page,
A. "Secret documents we have obtained show
how the Brown & Williamson Company, makers of
KOOl, Barklay, Belair, Viceroy, Arctic Lights and
duMaurier, plotted to confuse and mislead the
public about the health hazards of smoking."
And --
A. Dum-da-dum-dum.
And the next sentence, please?
MR. KLENK: I will stipulate that
Mr. Jacobson can read.
MR. LDNDONI It is JUSt one sentence.
Zt
is not a test.
BY MR. JACOBSON:
A. "The documents, subpoenaed from
3town & Williamson by the Federal Trade Commission
and turned over by the company in 1979, have been
sealed for two years under a court order."
BY MR. LONDON:
O. NOW, sir, did you see the secret
documents referred to in those two sentences?
85
r
I
2
3
4
S
6
7
8
9
l0
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
K. ~ don't know whst documents this refers
to, so I can't answer that question.
Q. Did you ask Mr. Radutzky what documents
it referred to?
A. I don't remember what I asked him.
Q. DO you remember what documents that
you saw?
A. I don~t remember what documents that
I SaW.
Q. Did you see any documents from Brown &
Williamson?
A. I don't remember what documents I saw.
Q. Do you have --
A. Bad memory.
Q. So far as you know, does CBS have a
document destruction policy?
A. oh, my God. Not that I know Of.
Q. DO you, personally, have a document
destruction policy?
NO policy whatever.
DAd you destroy any documents that
relate to this case at any time since NoVember,
1981, to this date?
A. I never destroyed anything.
!
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
ll
12
13
14
15
16
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
his
case?
A.
had
of his
A.
O- Did you ever discuss with Mr. Radutzky
destruction of douuments relating to this
I didn't know that he destroyed any.
Q. Did Mr, Radutzky ever tell you that he
destroyed documents that relate to this case?
A. NO, he didn't.
Did he ever tell you he threw away psrt
file after this case began?
I don't remember him telling me that.
Did you throw away any part of your file
what I threw
after this case began?
A. I have no recollection of
away and didn't.
O. It is possible that you may have
away part of your file a~d you just
it?
A. Anything is possible.
O- AS best you recall, it is
thrown
don't re~ember
possible that
you did and it's possible that you didn't, is that
what your answer is?
MR. KLENK: Objection. YDU a~k~d him whether
he recalled doing it and he gave you an answer.
Yo~ are going over the same ground.
87
f
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
BY MR* T,ONDnN:
Q. Do Z understand the state of your
recollection to be that you don't know or remember
that you did or you didn't, is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Do you have any recollection of what
those secret documents said?
A. NO, I don't.
O. DO you have a~y recollection of looking
at them in 19817
A. NO, I don't.
O. Did you know prior to November ii, 1981,
that Mr. Radutzky had spoken with somebody at Brown
& Williamson Corporation?
November
A. NO -- prior to --
NOvember Ii, the date of the broadcast.
A. Repeat it.
Q. I will ask the question again.
Did you know ~rior to the broadcast on
II, 1981, that Mr. Radutzky had spoken to
somebody at the Brown & William$on Corporation?
A. I don't remember now what I knew back
then, really.
Q. Does it refresh your recollection if I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
mention that there has been testimony to the effect
that Mr. Radutzky spoke to a representative of Brown
& Williamson Corporation before the broadcast who
denied some of the things contained in the script?
A. It tells me that Radutzky said certain
things.
Q. My question is -- I am not trying to have
you comment on what Radutzky said. I Just want to
know if it refreshes your recollection.
A. It doesn't refresh a recollection of what
went on between me and Radutzky back then. Sorry.
Q. can you recall any reason you had or might
have had for rejecting any suggestion that Brown &
Williamson's denial be included in your broadcast?
MR. KLENK: objection. Your Complaint says
that there was a denial in the broadcast. Are you
trying to mislead him?
MR. LONDON: No, I am not trying to mislead him
at all.
MR. KLENK: It's alleged in your Complaint,
Marry.
MR. LONDON: I am not asking him about the
Complaint. I am asking him what occurred in
November, 1981~
4
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
MR, KLERK:
MR, LONDON:
again, please?
MR. KLENK:
Are you able
THE WITNESS: Oh.
what you were doinga I
BY MR. LONDON:
0. That's the
reread?
A. Yes.
(WHEREUPON,
I'm sorry.
DO you want to read the question
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested
as follows:
"Q. Can you recall any
reaso~ you had or might have had
for rejecting any suggestion that
Brown & Williamson's denial be
included in your b£oadcast?")
Same objection.
to answer the question?
I was so interested in
forgot the questioK.
problem. Do you want it
the record was read
by the reporter as requested
as follows:
"Q. Can you ~ecall any
reason you had or might have had
681814554
9O
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
ll
12
13
14.
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
for rejecting any suggestion that
Brown & Williamson's denial be
included in your broadcast?")
BY TNE WITNESS:
A, My answer is no. I don't remember reasons
for doing things three and a half years ago, nor do
I remember the suggestion,
BY MR. LONDON:
NOW, sir, i~ around November, '81,
Radutzky was working on stories An addition to
this o~e, correct?
A. I don't remember what he was doing in
November of '81.
Q, Well, was he attached to the Perspective
Unit?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. Who employed Radutzky; who hired him?
A, WBBM.
Q. Were the people in the Perspective Unit
on WBBM's payroll or yours?
A, BBM's.
Q. And BBM hired them and fired them?
A. Right.
Q. Paid their salary?
f
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Paid all the cost of production?
A. Right.
Q- But you were Radutzky's supervisor?
A. Right.
Q. And he did research and writing for many
Perspectives other than the tobacco ones, correct?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. And is it correct that he at any one time
would be working on several different programs at
once?
A. That certainly is a possibility.
O. Only a possibility?
A. Yes.
Q. You don't know?
A. NO, because he may have been working on
this one exclusively for a period. I don't remember
Q. And was it your responsibility to
supervise Radutzky not only with respect to the
cigarette broadcasts but with respect to the other
broadcasts he was working on?
A. Yes.
Q. And was it your general practice in
supervising him to speak to him about the projects
681514556
92
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
g
I0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
Ig
20
21
22
23
24
he was researchlng?
A. At some point in the process.
Q. And was it your duty as his supervisor
to make a~ effort to assure that he was accurate?
MR. KLENK| Object to the form of the question.
You can answer it.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. You may answer.
A. No,
Whose duty was that?
A. Nobody's.
Were there any circumstances in which you
ever ~ndeEtook any steps to check On the accuracy of
things Radutzky had reported to you?
A. Oh, of course, before I put something on
the air, always, as best we could.
O. And before you put 8omething on the aiT,
who in your organization had in November, 1981,
responsibility to do that check?
A. The ultimate responsibility would have
been mine.
with
O. And did you discharge that responsibility
respect to the broadcast on November II, 19817
A. I am certain that I did. I don't remember
93
1
2
3
4
• 5
6
?
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
what happened in November of '81, but I am certain
did.
O. So it is correct that while you have no
recollection of this particular broadcast, you do
have a recollection that generally it was your duty
and one that you faithfully discharged to check on
the facts as best you could prior to airing the
program?
A. It always was and it is and I presume it
always will be my duty to try to be accurate.
Q. And does that include checking the facts
you broadcast?
A. It includes whatever is necessary to make
certain that I am as accurate as I can possibly be.
Q. Does that mean checking the facts as well
as other things?
A. You have to define to me what you mean
by "checking the facts," because they vary in
every situation.
Q. Mr. Jacobson, you told me three minutes
ago that you always, to the best of your ability,
check the facts before the broadcast, correct?
A. Always do what is necessary.
O. To check the facts?
"i
94
f
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
ID
II
~2
~3
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
A. To make sure" I am accurate.
Q. And if your broadcast has some factual
content, then you do what is necessary to assure
that the factual content is correct, yes?
A. Yes.
O- And when Mr. Radutzky comes to you with
an outline or a suggestion that contains factual
assertionst you do something to check those facts,
yes?
A. If 1 am going to use them on the broadcast.
O- You do?
A. Yes.
O. ~s that correct?
A. If I am going tO use --
O. You can't nod your head. That's all I
~e~n,
A. If I am going to use them On the broadcast.
O. Then you check the facts?
A. Yes,
O. Wow, ~ir --
you mean by
A. Do yOU want to define what
"check the facts"?
Well, I am going to ask you that question.
Let me ask you another question first.
/:
• i
c~:,:.~,., -~'~.... , ,'3~2±Ta2-eo87 ~ g 1 ~ 1 4 5 5 9
95
!
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
~9
20
21
~2
23
24
Are there people other than -- in November,
81 -- I'll keep it less confusing -- were there
,eople in addition to Radutzky who did what Radutzky
did?
A. Yes.
Q. Now many?
A. I think two others at that time.
Q. What were theiE names?
A. One's name was Sond~a Steele, S-o-n-d-r-a,
Steele, S-t-e-e-l-e. And the other -- ~ mean, they
overlapped here and there. But the other was Joe
Kolina, K-o-l-l-n-a.
Q. And did they report direGtly to you or was
there somebody in the organization between you and
!those people?
A. Directly to me,
Q. Prio~ to the time that you did the final
script, was there anybody else in the organization
whose duty it was to look at the m~terial produced
hy Steele, Kolina, or Radutzky?
NO.
Q. Oid Steel~, Kolina, or ~adutzky have any
people working for them?
A. NO, not that I know of.
GeleI45G0 !
96
)
3-
9
J
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
~. ~c Within the Perspective organization,
there were basically two levels with respect to this
kind of thing; there was the Radutzky, Steele,
Kolina level, and then there was Jacobson?
A. Except that Radutzky, Steele, and Kolina
had the authority to hire a photographer for a day's
worth of work or to get some extra research.
Q. I understand.
A. Or hire a court reporter or something
like that.
Q. NOW, sir, so you supervised these three
people; Steele, Kolina, and Radutzky?
A. Yes.
O. When one of these researchers -- is it
fair to call them researchers?
A. Yes.
Q. (Continuig) -- came to you with an outline
or some sheets of typewritten material with respect
to a program and you determined to put it on the air
to write a script incorporating some of those facts,
ks there anybody you called upon to help you check
the facts?
A. In general?
Q. Yes. In 1981, November -- at or about
, 68/814561
L~
>:
97
-- i
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
II
12
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
November, ~8i.
A. There were people I could have called on
depending on the specific set of facts I needed to
check out.
Q. There were people available to you to do
that work7
A. In some instances.
Q. And who were those people?
A. Oh, my God. I mean, it would Just
depend. You have to give me a specific.
Q. People who work for BBM?
A. Oh, no. no. Outside.
Q. You employed outside services to check
facts?
A. NO. If I wanted to check a fact that
was presented to me by one of my assistants about
pla~s for the Democratic Con~entio~, I would call
or could call the chairman of the Democratic party
or staff member or the C~icago Central Committee.
Q. So that if one of your researchers brought
you a story and the story said something about the
plans for the convention, you could call up some
person you knew or Eomebody who knew somebody and
check that fact?
4
J
)
3
J
i
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
98
A. l could,
But you don't always?
A. NO.
Q. And what criteria do you
~se to determine
which facts to check
A. You want to give
because the criteria don't
equally?
Q. Well, how dO yOU
fact and when not to?
and which facts not to check?
me a specific example
apply to all stories
decide when to check a
A. Depends on the information that is given
to me and the story that is proposed, the nature of
the story.
Q. Tell me how the process works or did work
in '81 as to what facts Walter Jacobson would think
need checking and what facts Walter J~co~son thinks
would not need checking.
A. On what story?
Q. On any story.
A. You want me to make up a hypothetical?
Q. I want the standards.
A. There are no standards.
Q. It is Walter Jacobson's j~dgment,
correct? You have a judgment --
4
99
1
2
3
4
)J
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
)t"
13
i4
15
tt
16
17
19
2O
J
21
22
23
24
3
A. What is my judgment?
-- which facts to check and which facts
to not check?
A. I make my judgments on the whole
operation --
Q. Okay.
A. -- having to do with every aspect of
it.
Q. So if somebody wrote a story and said
that the Democratic Convention is in San Francisco
this year, you wouldn't bother to check that fact
because that is something you knew to be true --
A. Correct.
Q. -- is that right?
A. Yes.
O. And if somebody else wrote a story and
accused a major political figure of a serious
indiscretion --
A. If one of my assistants did, you mean?
Yes,
(Continuing) --- or a crime, that would
be something you would want to check before you
broadcast it, yes?
A. Oh, sure.
I ~
lOg
-4
C
!
J
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2D
21
22
23
24
O. SO is it fair to say that to the extent
that the story contains something of an attack or
of a derogatory nature, that would be something
you would want to check?
A. Well, I think you would have to define
what you mean by "~n attack" or "derogatory."
Q. You don't know what derogatory means?
A. NO, no. I mean, I know what I think it
means. I don't think I do anything derogatory.
I
present facts. If you happen to think they are
derogatory, that's your impression.
Q. You didn't think your November
broadcast was derogatory to the makers of
Brown & Williamson?
A0 No.
O. YOU thought calling them liars was
derogatory?
A. No. They may have thought that.
You don't think 607
A, NO.
Q. You don't think that's bad?
A. I thought at the time what I was saying
was accurate.
~. Can't accurate things be derogatory?
/
ii
aa'o,.. , 681814565
101
2
3
4
)1
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
14
15
i6
17
18
19
2O
)
21
22
23
:- 24
¢1
MR. KLENK: Let's not argue.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. Well, do you think derogatory means
inaccur~te~
A. That's a good question.
Well. as a journalist -- I think that
derogatory, coming from a journalist, is inaccurate.
I would have to think that out. It is a
philosophical question. We can discuss it some
other time.
O. DO you know what an attack on a political
leader is?
A. I know what an attack on a political
leader is, yes.
O. If one of your researchers brought a
story to you that involved an attack on
a political leader that was based on a fact a
researcher had found, would you check the fact
before you broadcast it?
A, Yes,
O. Would you ~heck the facts if it were an"
attack on a private --
A. ~f Mondale made an attack on ~e~gan, I
would report that M0ndale attacked Reagan without
102
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
~9
20
21
22
23
24
checklA~.
Q. If one of your reporters came to you with
an outline that said, "I have secret information
that is extremely unfavorable to Mondale, d£sparages
him," you would say, "I want to check those facts
before I broadcast it," right?
A. Right. or have him demonstrate to me the
accuracy of his facts.
I understand.
And if the fact was based on a secret
document, you would say, "Let me see it." right?
A. Yes,
Q. Did you do that when Mr. Radutzky came to
you in 1981 with a story about secret documents from
Brown & Williamson?
A. I'm sorry. I have to repeat that I don't
remember what went on between me and Radutzky in
November of '81.
Q. BUt if you had followed your normal
practices, yo~ would have said, "Show me the
document,'* or perhaps you wouldn't have had to
ask; he would have showed you the document,
right?
A. But really that's so iffy. I don't
681814567
I
103
I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
remember what happened,
Q. I just asked you about your
practices. That would have been your
practice, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, sir --
A. Yes.
Q. -- who selects the
used on your ~erspective?
A. Ultimately, I do.
Q. Somebody might make suggestions in
advance?
A,
O.
A.
Q.
station
A.
YeS*
The decision is yours?
normal
normal
graphics that are
to views of the
news directory
subject to them, although
discuss the question of
with the news director?
Yes.
Subject, of course,
~anager and the
Everything is
they don't -- yes.
Q. Did you ever
the CBS news standards
A. I don't remember having discussions with
any specific news director at any specific time
about the standards, How6ver, we have had seminars
681814568
104
)
)
J
)
)
J
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
and co,vu£sations over the years. It has been 16
yearm. I don't remember all the news directors, Go
tell you the truth, or 9eneral managers.
Q. Is it correct, then, that you occasionslly
do have seminars that relate to the CBS new8
standards?
A.
standards
US.
Q.
A.
Q.
occasionally there are instances when the
are refreshed or updated or discussed with
A,
Q.
A.
Q,
A.
MR.
About how frequently does that occur,
I don't know.
The best Of your recollection.
I can't recall at all.
Once every couple of years, perhaps?
Sounds okay.
$ou~d~ right?
It doesn't sound wrong.
LONDOn: Off the record.
(WHErEUPOn, the depositia~ wxs
adjourned until I=00 p.m.,
this date, July 12, 1984.)
sir?
681814569
d~z,,,~o, D[[~u • t31217s24087
C i
105
t
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
2O
21
22
23
24
STATE OF ILLINOIS )
) SS:
COUNTY OF C 0 0 K )
I, JULIK ~NS CO~EOY, a ~ot~ry Public
within and for the COUnty of Cook, state of
Illinois, and a Certified Shorthand RepOrter of said
state, do hereby certify:
That previous to the commencement of the
examination of the witness, the witness was duly
sworn to testify the whole truth concernin~ the
matters herein;
That the foregoing deposition transcript
was reported stenographically by me, was thereafter
reduced to typewriting under my personal direction
and
and
That the
me at the time and
That the
stated herein;
constitutes a true record Of the testimony given
the proceedings had~
said deposition was taken before
place specified;
said deposition was adjourned as
That I am not a relative or employee or
attorney or counsel, nor a relative or employee of
such attorney or counsel for any of the pa~ties
hereto, nor interested directly or indirectly in the
outcome of this action,
J
681814570
106
f
L
#
3
!
)
J
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
8
10
11
12
13
14
15
15
17
18
19
20
21
22
2~
24
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I do hereunto set my
hand and affix my seal of office at Chicago,
Illinois,1984. this ~_~ day of ~ ..... ~ .....
C.S.R.
o .ry ob io. °oo -
y ~u~i~un expires April 6, 1988.
Certificate No. 84-2251.
I
!
J
~o~
681814571
C~a, -~u.oLa • (312)7aa~o87
G~1814572
107
i
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
ll
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS
EASTERN DIVISION
BROWN & WILLIAMSON
CORPORATION,
WALTER JACOBSON
TOBACCO
Plaintiff,
and CBS, INC.,
Defendants.
No. 82 C 1648
July 12, 1984,
l:O0 p.m.
The deposition of WALTER JACOBSON resumed
pursuant to recess at Suite 3000, One First National
Plaza, Chicago, Illinois.
sae
10S
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
B
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
PRESENT:
MESSRS. PAUL, WEISS, RIFKIND, WHARTON &
GARRISON,
(345 Park Avenue,
New York, New York 10154), by:
MR. MARTIN LONDON,
appeared on behalf of the Plaintiff;
MESSRS. REUBEN & PROCTOR,
(19 South LaSalle Street,
Chicago, Illinois 60603), by:
MR. JAMES A. KLENK,
-and-
CBS, INC.,
(51 West 52nd Street,
New York, New York 10019), by:
MR. DOUGLAS P. JACOBS,
on behalf of the Defendants.
appeared
REPORTED BY: SHARYN A. EVERMAN, C.S.R.
sae
I09
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
iB
19
20
21
22
23
24
WALTER JACOBSON
By Mr. London
Jacobson Deposition Exhibit
NO. 6
NO. 7
NO. 8
NO. 9
NO. i0
NO. II
NO. 12
II0
144
146
147
148
150
184
192
sa~
II0
i.
!
1
+
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
WALTER JACOBSON,
called as a witness herein, having been previously
duly sworn and having testified, was examined and
testified further as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. LONDON:
Oo Mr. Jacobsonw when you saw Radutzky 4 and
Radutzky 5 in preparation for this deposition, when
was it that you saw them?
A. I can't answer that. I have no idea. I
don't remember. I have no idea.
MR. KLENK: Are you --
MR. LONDON: Let me go back.
MR. KLENK: I'm not sure h8
MR. LONDON: Let me ask the
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. Do you recall testifying this morning, sir
that yo~ looked at certain documents in preparation
for this deposition?
A. Yes, yes, I think I do.
Q. DO you recall testifying that one of the
documents you looked at or One of the things you
looked at was the text of three cigarette broadcasts]
A. Right.
understands.
question again.
sae
,'WOE#. ,..,2 _.q,.+.
e+,,,+°, . ,+++,+j7,.,++0,7 681814576
Iii
r-
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
u. Do you recall also testifying that another
thing that you can recall looking at was an excerpt
from the FTC report that was also mentioned in the
November llth, 1981 broadcast?
A. Right.
Q. DO yo~ remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you recall that 1 asked your
counsel, Mr. Klenk, to produce for us those
fragments that you looked at in connection with
deposition, and he was kind enough to give us
Radutzky Exhibit 4 and Radutzky Exhibit 5?
Do you recall that now, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And are Eadutzky 4 and 5 the documents
that you looked at in preparation for this
deposition?
A.
0.
A.
Q.
them?
A.
O.
Yesterday, yes.
And you looked at them yesterday?
Y~s°
And who
was present when you looked at
this
Jim Klenk.
Okay. And is
it your recollection now
c+,+++. _,+_+it,+... 681814572
112
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
g
lO
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
that those two documents and Exhibits 2, 3, and 4
marked in today's deposition are the only things you
looked at it?
A. That's right.
Nothing else?
A. Nothing else.
Q. Now, sir, when you looked at Radutzky 4
and 5, which are the documents in your right hand --
A. Right.
Q. -- yesterday, did it refresh your
recollection yesterday that you had seen them in
19817
A. No.
Q. As you sit here today, has anything that
has transpired, including the perusal of Radutzky 4
and Radutzky 5, refreshed your recollection as to
what, if anything, you saw in November, '81, in
connection with this broadcast aside from the
Radutzky outline?
A. No.
Q. And as you sit here now, are you able t~
report to us any recollection of anything you looked
at aside from the Radutzky outline, Exhibit 5, prior
to delivering the broadcast in question that's the
sac
. 6818145.78"
i13
C
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
subject
A.
Q,
graphics?
A.
slides,
Q.
that were
else?
A.
Q.
you were
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
MR.
MR.
question
of thls lawsuit?
Some of the pictures.
That were used ON the broadcast,
the
Well, they weren't graphics- They were
as I remember.
Aside from looking at some of the slides
used, you can recall looking at nothing
That's right.
Of course, you can recall, I assume, that
reading from a script?
When I delivered it?
Yes, sir.
Sur~.
A script that you had prepared?
Yes.
JACOBS: Can I just have 30 seconds?
(WHEREUPON, there was a short
interruption.)
KLENK: Could you read back the last
and answer, please?
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested, as
sa~
. 681814579
114
i
2
3
4
5
8
7
8
9
I0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
follows:
"Q.
I assume,
from
-A.
"Q.
prepared?
..A.
Of course, you can recall,
that you were reading
a script?
"A. When I delivered it?
"Q. Yes, sir.
Sure.
A script that you had
yes.")
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. Sir, do you know whether anybody in your
organization made any effort to check in or about
November, '81, with the advertising agency that was
mentioned in your perspective?
A. I can't -- I don't know if anyone did.
MR. KLENK: I object to the form of the
question. It suggests that an advertising agency
was mentioned in the perspective.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. Well, sir, in the beginning of the
perspective, you make references to, and ~ quote,
quote, "the slicksters on Madison Avenue," close
quote.
sae
115
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
You were referring
agencies, I take it, is that
A. Well, not agencies
but to advertisers.
look
there to advertising
correct?
or specific agencies,
Q. Advertisers?
A. People, promoters -- I guess
at it.
O. Yes, sir.
A. Right.
You were referring there to
agencies, is that correct, sir?
A. Advertisers. Certainly no ad agency.
"Gone to the ad business in New York." That's
generic. Madison Avenue I always thought meant the
ad business.
Q. By
manufacturer
I'd have to
advertising
"ad business," do you mean the
whose product was being sold or do you
mean the agency that was helping the manufacturer
advertise his product?
A. No one specifically. I meant just
generically the ad business.
Q. The business of creating and facilitating
advertising?
A. That's right.
sae
116
2
3
4
5
6
?
8
9
I0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
1 Q. You recognize that the people who do that
have clients, and they're called advertisers, is
that correct?
A. I don't know if that's correct.
Q. You don't know if that's correct.
Is WBBM an advertiser?
A. Is WBBM an advertiser?
Q. Yes.
A. Does WBBM advertise its product?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you consider that WBBM is in the ad
business?
A. No.
Q. DO you consider yourself in the ad
business?
A. NO.
Q. You are the subject of advertisements,
aren't you?
A. Yes, but l'm not in the ad business.
Q. You use an advertising agency, don't you?
A. We do.
Q. You consider them in the ad business?
A. That's the ad business. That's what I
sac
117
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
consider the ad business.
Q. Your advertising agency?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you wrote that "the killer
business has gone to the ad business in New York for
help, to the slicksters on Madison Avenue," you were
adverting to the tobacco industry going to the
adverfising agencies, isn't that
A. I was referring to the
going to the ad business --
Q. All right.
A. -- in New York.
Q. Okay.
A. And spending a billion
Q. And the ad business in
correct?
tobacco business
dollars-
New York was
advertising agencies, correct?
A. Well, I don't know. I can't say.
Q. Who else could --
A. There could be Joe Shmoe, you
got a great idea for selling cigarettes
So he goes to the cigarette company and
sell you -- I'ii create a great ad for
could be the Joe Shmoe ad business.
Q. That's who you are referring
the
know, who's
or tanks.
saysj "I'll
you." So it
to?
"" ................... 681814583
118
1
2
3
4
S
5
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
A. NO. I don't know an agency from an
individual.
Q. Could you tell me what you meant when you
used the word "slickster"?
A. Sure -- wait a minute. I cannot say to
you what I was thinking on the day I wrote this
script.
If you are asking me today what I mean
when I say "slickster," l can give yOU an answer.
Q. Okay. What is it?
A. A slickster is a person who has creative
ideas to win a point. A slickster is a person who
is good with words and pictures. This is what it
means to me. A slickster is a person who can sell
you a used car or a cigarette or a TV station.
Q. Because he's good with words and pictures?
A. Yes. That's what a slickster means to me.
Q. Are you a slickster?
A. Pretty much -- yes, I could be a sllckster.
Q. All right, sir. Now, you had read --
withdrawn.
Did you make any effort before you
delivered on the air Exhibit 4 to identify the
slickster that was responsible for the cigarette
s~e
119
C
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
advertising that was the subject of the last part of
your November llth, 1981 perspective?
A. NO, not that I recall.
I take it, then, that having made no
effort to identify that person or organization, you
made no effort to check any facts with that person
or organization?
MR. KLENK: That was not his testimony. He
said he didn't recall, not
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. Is that correct?
A. I'm not sure what
that he didn't.
you mean.
Q. Did you make any effort to verify the
facts contained in the latter part of your
perspective with that person or organization?
A. The latter part?
Q. Referring to Viceroy, from Viceroy on down.
A. That last paragraph?
The last two paragraphs -- three, four
paragraphs.
A. Now again.
Q. I'm part of the
try to give it to me
referring now to the
perspective that refers to Viceroy and thereafter.
A. Okay. All right.
sac
120
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
2I
22
23
24
Q. That's found on the document you're
looking at on the last paragraph Of Page i of
Exhibit 4 and the following three paragraphs.
Do you see that, sir, on the next page?
A. Okay.
Q. That's referring to Viceroy, right?
A. Right.
Now, sir, did you in connection with
four paragraphs make any effort to check the
accuracy of the facts contained therein --
A. For example, sir?
Q. Let me finish the question.
Did you make any effort to check the
accuracy of the facts contained therein with the
person or organization in the ad business who was
responsible or who helped with the advertising?
A. I need to be asked by you which facts.
Who knows whose fault it is that children are
smoking? That's not a f~ct. What facts could I
have checked?
If you ask me which facts I could have
checked, I'd probably tell you I checked them,
because I always check my facts or try.
Q. What efforts did you make to check the
those
sac
121
(
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
accuracy of the phrase "the Viceroy strategy"?
Do you see that phrase down at the bottom?
A. Right, "the'Viceroy strategy for
attracting young people."
Q. What efforts did you make to ascertain if
Viceroy had a strategy?
A. I am reporting on the federal report which
says Viceroy strategy.
Q. And that's all?
A. SO I'm quoting the federal report.
Q. You made no other effort to check the
accuracy of that fact?
A. No, that's not true. We called -- no,
I'm
not sure exactly what Michael Radutzky did, so X
better wait for a specific question.
No, it is not true that we did not check
further.
Q. What else did you do?
A. Radutzky called Brown & Williamson, I
think, and --
What else?
A. That's it -- I don't know what else. I
don't know what else.
Q. You started to stay something more? You
sac
.am.,,°,.. ++,++,7+++o++7 6 1814587
122
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
iO
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
said "and"?
A. I don't know what I was going to say. I
don't know what I was going to say- Honest to God,
I don't know what I was going to say.
Q. Okay. So you know that Radutzky called
Brown & Williamson, but you don't know anything else~
A. I believe he did. I was not on the
telephone.
Q. But you remember that now, or is that
something you just picked up in here today?
A. NO- I -- I can't tell you how I remember
it. I remember it.
Q. You do remember it?
A. l remember -- I remember Radutzky saying
he called Brown & Williamson.
Q. And what did Radutzky say in that
conversation --
A. I can't remember --
Q. -- on that subject?
A. I can't remember what he said other than
something -- I mean, get Radutzky in here. He said
something like Brown & Williamson said that i£ was
not -- it did not have a strategy of attracting
young people.
sae
ee, o,, , 681814588
123
<
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
~ometning to that effect he told you?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you say?
A. I don't remember that conversation.
Q. You don't remember anything else about the
conversation?
A. It's hard for me to distinguish between
wh~t I think I might have said, knowing my standards
and my way of operating, and what I actually did say
in the conversation with Radutzky, which is why I'm
hesitating here.
If you phrased your question differently,
I might be able to answer it. But l'm afraid to
tell you what Radutzky said and didn't say and what
I said and didn't say, because I don't want to make
a mistake in our exchange. This is very important,
and I want to be accurate.
Q. It is indeed, sir. Let me give you an
explanatory statement of what I'm asking you for so
we don't have any misunderstanding.
A. Okay.
Q. What I'm asking you for now is whatever
you can recall. Now, sometimes you might have a
strong recollection of something and sometimes you
sae
t i
124
I'
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
might have a weak recollection of something. And I
don't have any difficulty in your qualifying your
statement that this is a good recollection or a not
so good recollection.
But what I'm asking you for now is
something you recall. If you don't recall it, then
I expect you to tell the truth and say you don't
recall it. I don't want you to give me a guess of
what you think is logical you might have said in the
circumstances or some assumption of what somebody
like you might have said to somebody like Radutzky.
Do you understand the distinction I'm
making, sir?
A. Yes, I
recall -- okay.
Q. Now,
you that Brown
effect of they
do. It's hard -- okay. I do- I
the question is: When Radutzky told
& Williamson said something to the
don't have a strategy of selling
cigarettes to youngsters, what else do you recall
either Radutzky saying to you or you saying to
Radutzky?
A. I recall Radutzky saying something about
Brown & Williamson being unwilling or not following
through on its denial of the strategy, like -- I
sae
125
5~e
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
1 can't create a conversation.
I recall -- I recall Radutzky saying that
Brown & Williamson denied it, but -- and I'm looking
at this script now; and I can tell you that 1 am
certain that if the denial from Brown & Williamson
seemed reasonable to me, specifically it would have
been in there the way Brown & Williamson said it-
See, itts all in here, Marty.
There is --
the cigarette business denies it, denies
it, denies
it. I say that. And it is -- and then
the Viceroy
strategy for attracting young people, if
Brown &
Williamson denied it -- well, the government
countered Brown & Williamson's denial.
Q. Now, sir, with whom did you eat this
afternoon?
A. These three gentlemen.
Q. Mr. Klenk?
A. Mr. Cummings and Mr. Jacobs.
Q. Did the subject matter Of this deposition
come up at lunch?
A. It came up. It came up, yes.
Q. Is your recollection about the events of
1981 a little better this afternoon than it w~s this
morning?
" 681814591
126
i-
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
ll
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
i9
2O
21
22
23
24
A.
O.
A.
O.
A.
0.
remember
afternoon
A.
Q.
A.
O.
NO.
Not any better, is it?
NO. We didn't discuss it.
You didn't discuss 19SI?
NO.
Something occurred to enable you to
the piece that you remembered this
that you didn't remember this morning?
2 see this (indicating).
What are you pointing to?
Z see Exhibit 4.
When did you first see Exhibit 4?
You saw that yesterday, didn't you?
A. Yes-
O. You saw it this morning?
A. Yes. Now you were directing my attention
specifically to a paragraph and asking me a specific
question. See, I'm confused between what I know I
should damn well have done and what I can picture
sitting at the typewriting and Radutzky sitting
across from me.
And I'm reading this, and I 'm getting
confused between what our language was and what I
would have said.
sae
127
see
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
Q. Okay. And do you understand I don't want
you to tell me ~ntll I ask for it what you damn well
should have done or what you would have said?
A. I understand.
Q. You understand
A. That's right.
between those.
Q. When you sit and look
now and look at the material on
to you, is it not, that
that?
I'm trying to distinguish
at that paragraph
Page 2, it's clear
what you damn well should
have done was put in here something at least about
what Brown & Williamson said in response to this
charge?
A. Now you're asking me what I think about it
now, right?
Q. Yes.
A. The answer to that question is no.
Q. Okay. YOU don't think you should have put
that in there?
A. No.
Q. All right, sir.
A. I don't think I should have or shouldn't
have. I don't think it was incumbent upon me to
include -- I don't know. What? What's your
128
(
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ll
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
question?
Q. What Radutzky told you Brown & Williamson
Corporation said.
A. Well, you are talking about now, and I
can't remember what exactly it was that Radutzky
said Brown & Willlamson said.
Q. You just know that Radutzky told you that
they denied having a strategy for selling cigarettes
to children --
A. Denied --
Q. -- isn't that correct?
A. Yes. That's not a specific. Okay.
Q. And I'm asking you now as you sit here now
and as you read those paragraphs now with that
information now, is it your judgment that that ought
to have been included in this perspective?
A. No more than it is. It is. It is.
Q. Okay.
A. "The cigarette business insists that it's
not selling cigarettes to children." That's a
denial. It's a whole paragraph.
Q. All right, sir. Now, did you have any
conversation with -- at any time with anybody in
connection with the November llth broadcast about a
s~e
..d,,,.
,; c ,2, 7,2 ,0,7 681814594
129
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
IO
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
confidential source?
A. Did you say have I
Q. Yes. in connection
ever?
with this broadcast.
A. Well. I see it here {indicating).
Q. What are you pointing to. sir? You have
to say the words.
A. I'm pointing to Jacobson Deposition
Exhibit No. 5.
Q. And what is it you are referring to in
there, sir?
A. I'm referring to my having read this
morning that Radutzky said he had a confidential --
or had a secret memo. but now I don~t see it.
Q. Secret documents?
A. Secret documents.
Q. Documents subpoenaed from Brown &
Rilliamson?
A. I guess.
Q. Page 12087
A. Yes.
Q. Is that what you are referring to?
A. Yes. secret documents that we have obtained
Q. Okay. Now. sir. other than those secret
documents, any other conversations or communications
130
i
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
in any form at any time relating to this broadcast
with respect to confidential sources?
A. I recall none or I don't recall any.
Q. Have you any recollection of who proposed
any of the graphics or illustrations or slides that
were used in connection with the broadcast?
And again, yo~ understand throughout these
questions that when I speak of the "broadcast," I am
speaking of the November ll, 1981 perspective?
Do you understand that, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Any recollection of how those particular
images came to be chosen?
A. Yes, I do have a few.
Q. All right, sir.
A. I recall --
MR. KLENK: Wait till he asks you.
BY THE WITNESS:
A. Yes.
BY MR. LONDON=
Q. Tell us what you rscall.
A. I recall Radutzky telling me what kinds of
pictures he proposed there in the memo, and X recall
making some suggestions for what kind of pictures to
sac
:Wo£[=, J.=.
131
)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
get to £ill out our report.
Q. Do you have a recollection that for parts
of the program, when you were talking about the
matter that's included in the last four paragraphs
of Exhibit 4, there was portrayed upon the screen a
picture of two Viceroy cigarette packs and a golf
club and a golf ball?
A* I don'trecall.
Q. Let me show you, sir, some documents which
I will describe for the record. They're very poor
copies, but perhaps you'll recognize them.
I show you Exhibit B to the complaint in
this action, which is, I believe, a photograph of
what appeared on the television screen during this
perspective. TO the right there is a part of the
perspective that was printed on the screen, and to
the left there is a Viceroy ad* Those are two
Viceroy packs.
Do you see that, sir?
A. I see this exhibit, yes.
Q. Yes. And do you have any recollection of
who selected the Viceroy ad to the left of the text
in that slide?
A. I don't remember who selected it.
sae
132
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q. And indeed, do you recall who it was who
decided upon the graphic presentation of this with
the language on the right and the Viceroy ad on the
left both projected on the screen at the same time?
A. I don't recall that. You're talking about
the process Of putting these together?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. That's three and a half years ago; and who
said exactly what to whom, X just can't recall.
Q. But the decision as to which ones to use,
which language to use on the screen, and which
pictures to use on the screen is yours?
A. Ultimately it's my responsibility.
Q. Your responsibility. And that
responsibility you exercise and discharge, yes?
A. I'm responsible for what's there. I can't
tell you for certain that I made this suggestion.
I
approved it i~ I didn't make it.
Q. All right, sir. DO you have any
recollection of -- do you have any recollection of
being involved at all in the creative process with
respect to, for example, Exhibit F to the complaint,
which has on its right-hand side in capital letters
the phrase from your perspective to "relate the
sae
681814598
133
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
cigarette to pot, wine, beer, and sex"?
A. Which is a quote from the government.
Q. Yes. And to the left Of that, to put a
Viceroy advertisement?
There was no Viceroy advertisement in the
government report or when the government wrote those
wordst was there?
A. I don't know.
Q. You don't know that the linking together
of those words with --
A. Well, I --
Q. -- the current Viceroy advertisement was a
creative product of WBBM?
You don't know that?
A. I'm not clear what you mean by "creative
product."
Q. I mean, somebody in BBM decided to publish
a 1980 Viceroy advertisement adjacent to the words
that are quoted from the government report?
A. Excuse me. I don't think this is a
Viceroy advertisement.
Q. You think the material --
A. I think these are pictures of Viceroy
packages. I'd have to see the whole thing, but
it
sae
c~,,,~,,, ~'~..o,, . ,'3,2JT~-~os;' G 8 1814 5 9 9
j ~
134
sae
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
doesn't look to me like it's an advertisement. I
don't see the copy. It looks too small. I'm not
certain. I'd have to see it.
But this looks to me like just pictures
Viceroy packages.
the decision to put that scene
of
Q. SO if it's not advertisements, it's
pictures that would be pictures that you took, you
procured? You meaning WBBM?
A. It could be two cigarette packages sitting
on a desk of which a picture was taken.
I'm not
certain.
Q. Okay. But
together the way it is was, as you say, ultimately
yours?
A. That's right, my responsibility.
Your responsibility. You had creative
for
control over this program?
A. That's right.
Q. And you had creative responsibility
the slides as well as for the text --
A. That's right.
-- of the broadcast, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, sir, you mentioned before that WBBM
L35
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
is an ~Qver~iser~
A. YOU said WBBM was an advertiser, and I
said yes, it is. I guess it is.
I'm sure it is, yes, for sure. Yes.
I've
seen my picture on billboards.
Q. In connection with your perspective,
correct?
A. Yes -- well, actually, I can't say that
for sure. I don't remember now seeing a billboard
that says Walter Jacobson's perspective. I've seen
my pictures on billboards, so we advertise me.
Right, I'm a product.
MR. LONDON: Jim, can I just chat with you a
moment off the record?
MR. KLENK: Sure.
(WHEREUPON, discussion was had
off the record.)
(WHEREUPON, certain proceedings were
had designated as confidential and
are transcribed under separate
cover.)
sae
140
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
I[
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
2i
22
23
24
BY MR. LONDON:
are
(WHEREUPON. the following proceedings
were had, not designated as
confidential.)
Q. Do you ever see any of the ads before they
published?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you ever make suggestions as to the
content or copy of the ads?
A. Yes.
Q. And you[re -- the ads for WBBM are created
by whom. sir?
A. I don't know.
Q. An advertising agency?
A. I presume.
Q. Now. sir. are you aware that the station
does research among your viewers as to what they
think of you?
A. Yes.
Q. And how did you become aware of that
research?
A. Having been in the business for all these
years. I just know it,s done. I[ve never seen it,
nor has anybody in my management ever said to me.
• 681814602
141
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
"We aid a survey on you, and you are something Or
other." I've heard it's --
Q. You know it's done?
A. Well, I don't know. YOU said that am I
aware that it's done, and my response is it's done.
You said it's done, so I'm aware it's done.
I have never seen it done. I've heard of
things,
contests, and I
Q. Isn't
connection with
as you have, like Q ratings and popularity
don't know.
that audience research utilized in
advertising the station?
A. I have absolutely no idea.
Q. When you have input into the content of
advertisements relating to you, who do you
communicate with?
A. I have communicated on occasion with the
people who draw up or produce these ads.
Q. At the ad agency?
A. Yes.
Q. Cunningham & Walsh, right?
THE WITNESS: It's going to sound dumb, but is
that where Carla works?
MR. KLENK: Just answer his question. Is that
Cunningham & Walsh?
sae
. 3,2J7, 087 681814603
142
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
your
BY THE WITNESS:
A. Z don~t know.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. DO you have
you communicated?
A. Yes. Carla and
Q. Carla is somebody who
office?
A. Yes.
Q,
A.
Q.
substance
relate to
MR.
the name of a person with whom
our Lilly Eide.
works outside
Q. And Lilly Eide, where does she
A. Inside our office.
Is Carla's last name Merriman?
Eight.
And you and Carla communicate
of your ads?
By "your ads," I mean WBBM's
you.
KLENK: Objection. We have been
You can answer that question,
LONDON: Withdrawn.
MR.
BY THE WITNESS:
A. We have
BY MR. LONDON:
O.
on occasion.
All right, sir. Are
of
you not
work?
abo~t the
ads that
over this.
aware that
sae
¢%VoE/,, ~_Ro~.,,~,,e ,,,,,/,:~/~°~,. ~,o.
c~.~o a,r,.o,, . ,~,2~78~.,087 681814604
143
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ll
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
Carla Merriman is privy to the results of the
audience research that's done with respect to your
program?
A. Unaware. NO idea.
Q. Are you not aware that advertising
campaigns are based on that market research?
A. You know what? I don't even know what
you
mean. YOU have to be more specific.
Q. Which word in that sentence did you
understand?
A. That an ad campaign is based on that
not
research, whatever it is.
Q. You don't know what that means?
A. I presumed you were talking about the ads
for the commentaries, and Carla says, "This is what
we want to say about the commentary in the newspaper
tonight. Is it accurate?"
And I say, "Yes, it's accurate," or "NO,
it isn't accurate, because that's not exactly what
I'm going to say. SO do it again."
Q. And don't you know that when Carla draws
those ads, creates them, or the people in her
organization create them, they use among other
things the market research that!s done with respect
sae
144
C
1
2
3
4
5
6
?
8
9
IO
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
to viewers' reaction to you?
MR. KLENK: Objection.
already.
YOU Can
BY THE WITNESS:
A. I don't
MR. LONDON:
please?
BY MR. LONDON:
He testified about
answer the question one more
know. I don't know.
Would you mark this document,
(WHEREUPON, a certain document was
marked Jacobson Deposition Exhibit
NO. 6, for identification, as of
7/12/84.)
Q. I show you a document that*s been marked
as Exhibit No. S.
Can you tell me who any of the people in
the "To" line are?
A. No.
Q. Ahem, Anema, Dearth, Johnson, O'Connor,
and Schingoethe?
A. I don't know who they are.
Q. Do you know who Carla Merriman is?
A. I do know Carla Merriman.
Q. Have you ever been to a meeting with the
this
time.
sae
_4 o.
145
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
peopi~ whu
the latest
they discussed
~ate your ads at which
research findings?
A. Never.
Q. Nave you ever been to a meeting in which
the latest market research was used to create an
advertising campaign?
A. Isn't that what you just asked me?
I asked: Have you ever been to a meeting
where that was done?
A. No.
Q. You were unaware that information was
being utilized for that purpose?
MR. KLENK: Objection. We have been over this
before.
You could ask him if this refreshes his
recollection that be knew about it or something like
that, but we have been over it.
MR. LONDON: I think I'm entitled to ask him
that question now that be' s seen the document.
THE WITNESS: Repeat the question.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q, You were unaware that the market research
that is done is used for that purpose, that is, to
create advertising campaigns with respect to the
sae
146
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
station's product, is
A. That's
MR. LONDON:
BY
sir?
that correct?
correct.
Mark that, please.
(WHEREUPON, a certain document was
marked Jacobson Deposition Exhibit
No. 7, for identification, as of
7/12/84.)
MR. LONDON:
Q. You have Exhibit 7
in front of you now,
A. Yes, I do.
Q. That's the ad whose copy is "Made
Why are you laughing, sir?
A. It's interesting.
Q. Did you see this ad before it was
to Burn"
wasn't a laugh. That was
published?
A. By the way, that
an expression of interest.
Q. I took it to be a chuckle. I'm sorry.
A. NO.
Q. Why do you find it interesting?
A. Well, it's -- it's three and a half years
old. I don't remember having seen it, and it's
interesting to see how somebody created an ad
to
sac
147
i
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
promote the story we were doing.
Q. And is this one that you saw before it was
published?
A. This is the first time I've seen it that I
remember.
(WHEREUPON, a certain document was
marked Jaeobson Deposition Exhibit
NO~ 8, for identification, as of
7112184.)
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. Now, sir, I show you Exhibit 8
identification.
Did you see that
published?
This one I remember.
Q. You remember that ad.
What do you remember about
A. I remember the pack with
ad before it was
for
it?
the stars on it.
That's all, though.
Q. You didn't see it before it was published?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Did you have any conversations with Carla
about it?
A. I don't recall any.
sae
148
s~e
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
Q. Or anybody else?
A. No, I recall none, which isn't to say that
I didn't.
Q. What's Lilly Eide's function?
A. Somebody may have to correct me, but I
think Lilly Eide is in charge of our advertising and
promotion.
BY
(WHEREUPON, a certain document was
marked Jacobson Deposition Exhibit
No. 9, for identification, as of
7112184.)
MR. LONDON:
Q. I show you Exhibit 9, for identification.
Did you see that ad before it was
published?
A. No,
Q. Is
MR. KLENK:
MR. LONDON:
MR. KLENK:
BY THE WITNESS:
A. Can
embarrassed?
BY MR. LONDON:
I didn't.
that ad embarrassing?
Objection. That's
He can answer.
GO ahead.
irrelevant.
I read it first and see if I'm
uU,.o,, . 6 1814610
149
J
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
1O
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
BY
Sure.
(Short pause.)
THE WITNESS:
A. I can't answer that question. It's so
old.
I don't remember if I was embarrassed. I'm not
now.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. You're not now?
A. I mean I don't know. When was this
used?
Q. It indicates 1981.
ME. KLENK: Looks like '83.
MR. LONDON: Yes, '81 and '83.
THE WITNESS: '83?
MR. KLENK: I don't see any '81-
THE WITNESS: Couldn't have been '83.
MR. LONDON: I'm sorry. It's '83 they're all
'83s. They're all '83s. February, '83.
BY THE WETNESS:
A. Well, that's a touch embarrassing, yes. I
can't explain why. I just don't handle that kind of
publicity very well.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. DO you work at developing an image of a
confrontational personality?
A. No.
sae
150
I
2
3
4
5
6
?
8
9
I0
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q. Do you try to develop an image as somebody
who makes people angry?
A. No, definitely not. Just get the facts.
Q. DO you know where the creative person who
created this ad got the idea that it would help the
station's viewership to promote the notion that you
make people angry?
A. This says, "Make you cheer." I don't have
any idea. "He'll make you cheer."
Q. Doesn't your copy say on the first line of
the script, "He'll make you angry"?
A. "He'll make you angry or he'll make you
cheer, but he'll always leave you informed."
this
that
Q. Do you have any idea where the creator of
ad came upon the notion of mentioning the fact
you might make people angry?
A. NO idea.
Q. That never came up in any creative
discussion you ever had?
A. My only discussions with the ad agency are
over specific facts about the commentary that's
going to be advertised, not about this kind of
promotion at all.
(WHEREUPON, a certain document was
sae
m oo,, o 3,2j7,2.,o, G81814612
151
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
BY MR. LONDON:
Q.
md[ked Jacobson DepOSition Exhibit
NO. i0, for identification, as of
7/12/84.)
show you Exhibit i0, for identification.
Did you ever see that exhibit before?
I did not.
Neither before or after it was published,
A.
O.
correct?
A. I don't remember seeing it even after it
was published. It's good.
Q. Is that as far as you are concerned an
accurate description of you -- "a hard-hitting,
television columnist who pulls no punches"?
Do you consider that a fair description of
you and the way you conduct yourself?
A. Very hard, Mr. London, to determine what
"pulls no punches" means or how it might be
interpreted by somebody who reads it as opposed to
somebody who writes it.
Q. You don't know what that means?
A. I can't make a judgment.
Q. You don't know what that means?
A. Right, I don~t know what that means. I
sae
152
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
mean, I've heard the cliche before.
Q. You don't know what the creative person
who produced that ad was trying to convey?
A. NO idea.
Q. No idea at all?
A. No idea what goes on in their minds. The
second paragraph is very clear.
Q. That's a fair description of you, is it?
A, I know where to look, I kDow who to call,
I know how to ask tough questions, and I know how to
question the answers I get.
Q. When you say that you know who to call,
what do you mean by that?
Who to call for what purpose?
A. Information.
Q° TO get all the facts?
A. Um-hum.
Q. You have the resources available to get
all the facts?
A. Well, nobody has the -- no.
Q. But when you say you know who to call,
what's the purpose for which you would make that
call?
A. To get information.
sae
153
)
i
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
Q. And when you say you know how
tough questions, what does that mean?
to ask the
in the ~ext paragraph,
it on the line
A. A question that will elicit the truth.
Q. YOU know how to ask those questions?
A. Yes.
Q. And you know of whom --
A. I mean, I've been trained for 20 years to
ask those questions.
Q. To ask the questfons that elicit the truth'
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ask any such questions in
connection with the November llth, 1981 broadcast?
A. Well, [ just do not recall what questions
I asked.
Q. What does that mean
"Walter Jacobson, watch him lay
tonight"?
What does that mean?
A. I have no idea. You'll have to ask
advertising.
You don't know what that means, do you?
A. NO.
Now, sir --
MR. KLENK: Marty, are you done with the ads o*
sae
J,,=.
154
t
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
iO
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
or --
are you done with this line of whatever?
I wanted to step outside and have a word
with Mr. Jaoobson, but I didn't want to interrupt
your train Of thought.
ME. LONDON: Okay.
MR. KLENK: We will be back in
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. Now,
Exhibits 7 and
that are dated
ii, 19817
A. They
them.
two seconds.
(WHEREUPON, discussion was had
off the record between the witness
and Mr. Klenk outside the
presence of other counsel and the
court reporter.)
sir, you're aware, are you not, that
8 related to the three perspectives
November 9, November i0, and November
relate to two of them, not three of
but
Qo They don~t relate to all three?
A. NO, sir.
Q. Which two do they relate to?
A. Well --
MR. KLENK: The exhibits speaks
answer the question.
for themselves,
sae
155
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
1O
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
BY THE WITNESS:
A. Yes. This is important. I think they
relate to the first two, not to the third one, but
let me check to make sure.
November 9 -- they relate to November 9
and November 1O, not to November ii.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. As far as you know, was there any ad for
November llth?
A. I don't know.
Q. Is it the general practice of the station
to advertise your perspectives on a daily basis?
MR. KLENK: Objection, foundation.
MR. LONDON: Don't look at me. I don't know
what that means either.
MR. KLENK: How does he
of the station are?
MR. LONDON: Let him say.
BY THE WITNESS:
know what the practices
A. Do I know if it's a general practice that
they advertise my perspectives on a regular basis?
I don't know what the station's practices
are. He's right. No.
BY MR. LONDON:
sae
156
ir
i
i
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q. You see those ads regularly?
A. Regularly?
Q. Regularly.
A. NO.
Q. YOU don't see them regularly?
A. What's "regularly"? l've seen
really.
Q. TO your knowledge, are -- does the
advertise the perspectives once a week on an
A. No.
Q. Less than that?
Yes.
Q. Who makes the decision on which
perspectives to advertise and which ones not
advertise?
or
as
them before
station
average~
to
A. I don't know.
Q. Somebody at the station?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Well, the station pays for them?
A. Yes, b~t I don't know -- I don't know who
how or under what conditions the decision is made
to when and when not to advertise.
Q. You're not consulted about that?
A. No, sir.
sae
157
)
1
2
3
4
5
6
?
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q. Do you know -- you are aware that the
station subscribes to services that report on the
station's ratings?
A. I'm aware of that.
Q. And on the ratings of
A. I'm aware of that.
Q. And you learn of the
programs?
A. I can.
Q, DO you?
A. You mean the results of the
Q. Yes, sir. I'm sorry.
You learn of the results of
do you
A.
Q.
ao
Q.
reports?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
particular programs?
results of those
ratings?
the ratings,
not?
I can learn of them.
What does that mean, you can7
That means I can see the overnights.
You are authorized to have access to the
you?
Right.
And do you look at them?
On occasion,
They're of interest to
Yes.
sae
Wot/., 9 ,. , J.o.
158
6
?
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
1
2
3
4
5
Q. Have you ever heard the
"sweeps period"?
A. Yes.
Q. What does that mean?
A. Xt means a period that for
expression a
some reason is
more important than other periods during the year.
Q. More important for --
A. For ratings.
Q. Do you know who chooses the periods?
A. NO.
Q. Row long are the periods?
A. A month.
Q. How many such periods are there in a year?
A. I don't know. I don't know that.
Q. Do you learn the results of the sweeps
periods?
A. Yes.
Q. Are the sweeps periods periods which yield
rating numbers?
A. I can't answer that question. I don't
know what you mean.
Q. Well, you know that they are periods that
relate to the ratings process, is that right?
A. Right.
sae
159
)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
Q. Ratings come out in the form of numbers?
A. Right.
Q. If you have a higher number than your
competitor, it means more people are watching you,
correct?
A. Right.
Q. It's better for you to have more people
watching you, yes?
A. That's right.
Q. Not only as a matter of pride, but as an
economic matter?
A° Correct.
Q. You can charge more to people who want to
advertise on your station if you have more people
watching your station, correct?
A. I presume that's true.
Q. And the sweeps periods are, in part,
periods in which those numbers, those ratings, are
determined, is that right?
They
A, Yes.
Q. And ---
A. They're determined all year, the ratings.
never stop.
Q. Some ratings are determined on a daily
~ae
160
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
basis?
A. Yes, all ratings.
Q. And there are other ratings that are
determined in the sweeps periods?
A. Same ratings.
Q. Same numbers?
A. I think so.
But for some reason that you can't explain,
the sweeps periods "are more important?
A. That's correct.
Q. More important to whom?
A. To the industry at large.
Q. And you don't know why?
A. NO, I don't. That's a good question.
Q. DO you know where your station stood after
the November sweeps in November of 19817
A* NO, I don't.
Q. NO idea?
A. NO, I don't -- well, I have an idea
that it was somewhere among the top.
that
Q. ls it that you've forgotten or that you
think maybe you never bothered to learn?
A. It's more that I have forgotten.
Q. Is it fair to say that you and the station
• q: ..... ,7/~;..l. r3121782-80s7 G~I~1462~
161
J
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
take great pride in high ratings?
A. It's fair to say.
Q. That's something you're happy to
something you work ~o get?
A. Very much so.
Q. Now, when it comes to airing the
have R~d
perspectives, who decides which perspectives are to
be aired when?
A. The producer of the broadcast.
Q. For the perspectives, who is the producer?
A. I produce the perspectives. The producer
decides what to do with the perspective.
MR. KLENK: I think you had a miseommunication.
I think he's talking about the half hour, and I
think you're talking about something different.
THE WETNESS: He said --
MR. KLENK: Let him ask the question.
MR. LONDON: I think we are -- we are passing
each other.
MR. KLENK: Yes.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. I'll start again.
You are the producer
that correct?
of the perspectives,
is
sac
o 681814623
162
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
A. Yes.
Q. And you determine when a
perspective is ready to be aired?
A. True.
Q. It can't be aired until
script, right?
A. That's right.
Q. And even then it caN't be
submit the
general
A.
Q.
director
6:30 of
A.
Q.
A.
particular
you write the
aired until
the
you
0.
script to the news director and
manager?
That's true.
And you submit the script to the news
and the general manager between 5:30 and
the day you're going to broadcast?
Of the day I prepare it.
Of the day you prepare it?
I don't make the decision to broadcast it.
When is the decision to broadcast it made?
A. I suppose the last decision could be made
up to 10:15, It's in the middle of the broadcast.
Q. In the middle of what broadcast?
A. The broadcast that it's prepared to be on.
Q. Now, this is a live broadcast?
A. Right.
163
/
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
~. 5o at what time is the perspective
approximately? ,
A. i0:17, 10:18.
O. And are you suggesting that
there sometimes is no decision as to
perspective is going to be broadcast
minutes?
has
aired,
upto i0:15
what
live in two
K. Yes -- I'm suggesting not that no decision
been made, but that a decision can be changed.
O. When the perspective is aired, there are,
I presume, illustrations, graphics, slides,
photographs that are used as well as the picture
Walter Jacobson sitting at a microphone, is that
right?
A. Yes -- sometimes.
Q. Sometimes. And at least with respect to
those perspectives, there has to be some preparation
for camera people and technicians and everybody to
coordinate the use of that graphic material --
of
A. That's true.
Q. -- is that right?
A. That's true.
Q. That isn't something that can be just
dropped in at I0:15 or 10:17 for a 10:20 broadcast,
sae
att,,o,, o 681814625
164
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
2i
22
23
24
correct?
A. It can't very
It can rather easily be
Q. I understand.
in its stead?
A. Anything
in its stead.
Q. Is there
general
at 5:30
same day?
A.
Q.
A.
less of
majority.
O.
turn
6:30
evening
A.
Q.
easily be just dropped in.
dropped out.
And something simpler put
put in its stead or nothing put
a -- are you able to give us as
rule how often the script that you turn in
or 6:30 on any given day is broadcast the
How often?
Yes, sir.
Vast majority of the times at ten o'clock;
a majority the next day at six, but still a
Let's deal with one element at a time.
Of the vast majority of times when you
in the script on a given day between 5:30 and
p.m., it is that script that is broadcast that
in the ten o'clock program, correct?
That's correct.
Regularly, wha%ever is broadcast at ten
rebroadcast the following day at six?
o'clock is
sae
165
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
iB
19
20
21
22
23
24
A. Most of the time, much of the time.
Q. Most of the time that occurs?
A. Between much and most of the time.
Q. But that doesn't occur as often as, with
as high a rate of frequency as, the running at ten
o'clock of the script that's handed in at 5:30 or
6:30 that same day?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. Could you give us, so that we can
deal with these relative concepts of most of the
time, vast majority, and somewhate a number?
Out of ten programs, how ma~y times would
the 5:30 to 6:30 p.m. script be played the same
evening on the average?
A. By ten, you mean two successive weeks?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. That's difficult to answer, because I
don't prepare them every single night. But when I
prepare them --
Q. Okay. ~ don't mean necessarily successive
I want you to give me a percentage.
A. Of ten scripts prepared?
Q. Ten or a hundred. Give me a number out of
a hundred or out of ten scripts.
166
i
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
A. I can't. I can't. It's very high.
Is it higher than 80 percent?
A. It must be.
Q. Higher than 90?
A. I can't -- I don't kDow.
Q. Somewhere between 80 and a hundred?
A. Yes -- I can't -- yes.
Q. Okay. And is it -- would you estimate
it's something less than 80 percent of the time that
the i0:00 p.m. program is rebroadcast at 6:00 p.m.
the following day?
A. I'm less sure of that because I'm not
there.
Q. Okay. So is it correct, then, that, to
use your words, a vast majority of the time it's
your decision that dictates when a program will be
aired?
A. Absolutely not. You mean when a
commenta=y will be aired?
Q. Yes, a perspective.
A. No, it isn't. It's the producer's
decision.
O.
But the producer -- your experience is
that the producer will air the perspective the same
sae
o c ,2J,,2,0,7 881514825
167
7
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
day he gets it from you a vast majority of the time?
A. That's correct.
Q. SO you know going in that the greatest
likelihood is that the perspective will air on the
day that you submit it?
A. That's correct.
Q. What factors enter into your consideration
in deciding on what day to submit a script for a
perspective?
A. I think the only way I could answer that
take a number of perspectives
those or suggested those at a
accurately would be to
and explain why I used
given time.
Q. Well, clearly I understand your answer to
mean that there are reasons that you have?
Itls not a random decision?
It's a logical, reasoned decision, is that
right?
A. Logical reasoned decision? Sure, if you
mean by that a vast number of possibilities.
Q. Yes. You don't just throw darts at a
dartboard?
A. That's right. Sometimes I do that, too.
Actually, I throw darts a lot.
sae
168
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
l0
ll
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q. Coming back to the question of deciding
when to submit a specific script, you don't really
throw darts to determine that question, do you?
A. You have to clarify.
The decision that you make about when to
submit a given perspective script --
A. Every day at 5:30.
Q. You submit a script every day at 5:30, is
that right?
A. 5:30 to 6:30 almost every day.
Q. Does anybody at the station tell you which
script to submit on any given day?
A. There is only one. It takes all day to do
it.
Q- You write it the day you submit it?
A. (Nodding head.)
Q. Does anybody tell you which script to
write on a given day?
A. No.
Q. Who decides that question?
A. I make the ultimate decision, if that's
what you want.
O. And with whom do you discuss that question
before you make the ultimate decision?
sae
169
J
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
iI
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
A. Any number of people.
Q. Who?
A. 1 will d~scuss it with my assistants.
I
will discuss it with the executive producer. I
might discuss it with the news director. I might
discuss it you, Martin London from New York.
Q. Have you from time to time discussed that
question with lawyers?
A. Sure.
Q. And have you discussed that question with
station managers?
A. On occasion. Rarely, rarely that I can
think of.
Q. function of an executive
producer?
A. TO
broadcasts.
What's the
oversee the production of all of our
There is a producer of each broadcast
and an executive producer over the three.
He tries to make sure that the shows
are
well-balanced and different one from the next.
O. Now, what elements are considered in
discussing the question of
on a given day?
A. The news of that
which subject to write on
day; the availability of
s.e q'Volfi --,t 0..
170
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
B
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
visual material oh that specific day; the level of
the" compilation of our information on the baals of
which a Commentary can be completed on a given day;
other elements in the broadcast; which subjects may
be lost if held over for a day because somebody else
might do them first: my level of exhaustion, which
would ~i~tate tb~t I do a more complicated oI a less
complicated commentary.
I could probably think of more.
Q. Do you discuss these deci6ions with people
outside the station?
A. Some.
Q. Who?
A. It depends.
Q. Depends on what?
A. Depends on the subject.
Q. You mean -- I'm talking about the tlming
decision.
A. Sure. If I'm working on a story at City
Hall and I want to wait a day -- if 1 start ~oing my
research on it on Monday and I decide that maybe I
need a little more information, I'll wait till
Tuesday.
I will call people in city Hall and say,
171
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
"If I don't use this tonight, is somebody likely to
beat me with it," or "How fast can you get me the
information so that I can complete it? How much
more research do I have to do to satisfy my need to
be accurate? Do you think, Mr. Alderman, if I wait
another day you can get me that extra piece of
information, or should I write it in a different
way?"
"Is Reagan visiting wild refuges today and
will there be pictures coming to us from the network
that I can use and will he be visiting another
refuge tomorrow so that I could hold my commentary
on the President and his visiting refuges for an
extra day, or will he be visiting an Indian tribe
tomorrow, in which case refuges are old news?"
SO i talk to a lot of people. Judges,
lawyers.
Q. Do you
when you --
do
consider
A. No.
-- make that
A. Do I consider
you mean by that?
Q. Well, you say
the legal ramifications
decision?
legal ramifications?
you speak to lawyers.
What
172
I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
l0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
DO yOU seek legal counsel?
A. No, no. It's not ~or that. Lawyers
with -- lawyers who are involved in disputes in city
and state government, judges who are about to make
decisions.
1 try. They don't talk much.
Q. Ever speak -- withdrawn.
When you discuss this question of timing
now with station personnel, does the element of the
expected size of the audience come into play?
A. NO. I don't know the size.
Q. Well, are there not periods of the year
when the size of the audience is more important than
other periods of the year?
A. To us?
I'd
Q. Yes.
A. Yes. They're more important during sweeps,
imagine.
Q. And are you not eager to have the highest
possible viewership during those periods?
A. Yes.
Q. When you write a program --
A. Commentary?
Q. A commentary or when you develop
an idea
173
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
l0
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
for a program, for a commentary, do you ever have a
notion as to -- that perhaps a particular commentary
will attract more attention than another one on a
different subject?
A. I have notions.
Q. And if you have a notion that a particular
commentary will ~ttract a wider audience than
another --
A. Could I interrupt? Not attract a wider
audience. I have a notion, as you have a notion,
about what people may be interested in, which is
different from attracting people to watch.
Because the advertising is so infrequen%,
there is no consideration of how to attract an
audience. I mean, most of the time, no -- yes, I
forgot.
MR. KLENK: Would you read the question, please~
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested, as
follows:
"Q. When you write a program --
Commentary?
A commentary or when
for a program,
"A,
*IQ,
you develop an idea
sae
~.';,~o, ~',,,o,, o ~*,2J,e2-8oa7 6 ~ 181 4 6 3 5
174
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
for a commentary, do you ever have
a notion as to -- that perhaps a
particular commentary will attract
more attention than another one
on a different subject?
"A. I have notions.
"Q. And if you have a
notion that a particular commentary
will attract a wider audience than
another --
"A. Could I interrupt?")
MR. KLENK: Let's go. Thank you very much.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. You have a notion from time to time that a
particular commentary may attract more interest than
another commentary, correct?
A. May be more interesting.
Q. May be more interesting.
You have a notion that one particular
commentary may be more interesting than another
commentary, is that right?
A. Yes.
of
Q. Is it your experience that the generation
more interesting programs leads to the generation
sae
175
)
J
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
of
a larger audience?
MR. KLENK: Ob3ection.
expert in this field, but he
BY THE WITNESS:
A. I have no idea.
BY MR. LONDON:
This man -- he's not an
can answer the question.
Q. You have no idea? You don't know if
more
interesting programs lead to wider audiences?
A. I have no empirica] evidence to make
any
determination on that. I don't know what that
is.
DO you try to make your programs so that
attract more people?
I deal -- I try to get into subjects that
interesting than those that are less.
Are you indifferent to the size of your
O.
you will
A.
aKe more
Q.
audience?
A.
O.
smaller
A.
It's irrelevant.
NO.
You'd rather have a larger audience than a
one, wouldn't you?
Yes, that's right. That*s true.
Q. And is it your belief that the size of
your audience is not affected by how interesting the
program material?
ME. KLENK: Objection.
176
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
Go ahead and answer
BY THE WITNESS:
A. Well, certainly the size of
tonight is not going to be determined
that question.
the audience
by the degree
of
there. We don'% do very much attracting,
don't do much advertising.
You know what I mean?
BY MR. LONDON:
I know what you mean.
So that the size of the
able to be enlarged by the interest of
interesting material, because the audience is
because we
audience is not
the program
unless the perspective audience learns about the
program in advance, correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And one of the ways that an audience is
taught in some instances by WBBM about the program
and how interesting it is in advance is through
advertising, is that right?
MR. KLENK: I would object to the question.
WBBM doesn't teach the public anything.
You can answer the question.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. Is that right?
177
J
i
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
A. I think he's right.
MR. KLENK: Just answer the question.
Would you read Mr. Jacobson the question,
and he can
answer it if he can answer it.
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested, as
follows:
"O. And one of the ways
that an audience is taught in some
instances by WBBM about the program
and how interesting it is in
advance is through advertising,
is that right?")
BY THE WITNESS:
A. That's right-
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. And the purpose of that advertising is to
attract a larger audience, correct?
A. It could be.
Q. Sir, do you have any doubt about that?
A. Yes.
Q. You're not sure that the purpose of
advertising is to attract an audience?
A. Well, I could think of many purposes --
178
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
IS
19
20
21
22
23
24
several purposes of advertising. I'm not
they advertise for. I can speculate.
Q. You don't know?
A. You told me not to speculate.
Q. As you sit here today, is the
WBBM's advertising something to
Is that your answer?
attract
sDre what
purpose of
an audience?
MR. KLENK: That's not what he testified.
MR. LONDON: Well, I'm asking him the question.
MR. KLENK: YOU already asked him the question.
MR. LONDON: NO. His answers are certainly
diffuse up to now. I'd like some precision. It's a
simple concept.
THE WETNESS: Give me the question again- I ~m
sorry.
MR. KLENK: You have nothing to be sorry for.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. ~s it your testimony that you are not
~ware that the purpose of advertising by BBM is
attract an audience?
A. I think that's one of the purposes of
advertising.
Q. To attract an audience?
A. Yes.
to
179
)
! "
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q. You think that's one of the reasons BBM
does it, right~
A. That's right.
Q. And, in fact, aren't you aware that WBBM
spends more money advertising your show during
sweeps periods than during non-sweeps periods?
A. I cannot tell you what WBBM's advertising
budget is or how it's divided up. I really can't
tell you, especially when it comes to money.
Q. And you have no information to the effect
that more money is spent during sweeps periods than
in non-sweeps periods, is that correct, on
advertising?
A. I don't have any advertising budgets.
Q. Listen to my question.
A. Okay.
Is it correct to say, sir,
that you have
no information to the effect that BBM advertises
more during sweeps periods than non-sweeps periods,
is that correct?
A. X have no information.
Q. You have never heard that said?
A. Oh, my God, what I~ve heard said
I haven't heard said --
and what
sac
180
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q. Have you ever heard it said that BBM
spends more during sweeps periods?
A. I can't tell you that I've heard that said.
Q. Have you heard it said that other stations
do so?
A. No.
Q. You've never seen that in any articles in
industry periodicals or newspapers?
A. I have a general perception.
Q. What is that general perception?
A. That more money is spent during sweeps
than
other periods.
Q. By BBM?
A. I've never
perception is that the industry
sweep periods than non-sweeps.
Q. And that your station
the way the rest of the
correct?
counted the number of ads. My
spends more during
behaves pretty much
industry does in that regard
A. That's my perception, correct.
Q. Now, sir, in the discussions that you have
had among people in the station about when to submit
scripts on particular subjects, has the subject of
the likely viewership ever come up?
sae
"I ' 181
,)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
~. 1 ¢~Jl never say never to anythingt but the
answer is no.
Q. The best that you can recall --
A. NO.
Q. -- audience size has never been a
subject --
A. That's right.
Q. -- in those meetings?
A. That's right.
Q. Has the subject of sweeps periods ever
come up?
A. Yes.
Q. In regard to what
what subjects to air during
A. My commentaries?
0. Yes.
A. It's come up.
Q. It's a factor
a lot of other things, right?
A. Um-hum -- yes.
programs to play whenr
what periods?
to be considered along with
Q. All right. Do you have any recollection
of whether that subject, i.e., sweeps periods, was
mentioned An any conversation respecting the timing
of the tobacco broadcasts that ultimately were aired
182
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
on November 9, i0, Ii, 19817
A. NO, I don't.
Q. NO recollection at
A. Noa I don't.
Q. Are you able
recollection
MR. KLENK:
question.
MR. LONDON: NO,
different question.
MR. KLENK:
would you read
all?
to say on the basis of your
that that subject was not discussed?
Objection. That's really the same
it's not. ~t's a totally
I guess I'm not able to decipher --
it, please?
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested, as
follows:
"Q. All right. DO you
have any recollection of whether that
subject, i.e., sweeps periods, was
mentioned in any conversation
respecting the timing of the
tobacco broadcasts that ultimately
were aired on November 9, 10, ii,
19817
"A. NO, I don't.
"' ~ 183
1
2
3
4
5
6
?
8
9
i0
li
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
Ig
2O
21
22
23
24
"O. No recollection at all?
"A. No, I don't.
"Q. Are you able to say on
the basis of your recollection that
that subject was not discussed?")
BY THE WITNESS:
A. No, I'm not able to say.
BY MR. LONDON:
O. Now, sir, to whom do you look for ideas
about possible perspective subjects?
A. Everybody, anybody.
Q. You look to people in the station?
A. Yes.
Q. You try to find subjects that will be
interesting to viewers?
A. Yes.
Q. You try to find subjects that will attract
viewers?
MR. Objection. He's been asked this
I think. He can answer it.
KLENK:
question before,
BY THE WITNESS:
A. Yes.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q.
Do you look to your advertising agency to
184
jl
i
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
come forward with suggestions of subjects to be run
on your perspective?
A. NO.
Q. Have you ever received creative
suggestions from your agency?
A. NO, not that I can recall.
MR. KLENK: You want to take a minute here --
why don't you finish whatever you are doing.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. DO you know who
ever heard that name?
THE WITNESS: Can we
ME. KLENK: Can yo~
Answer the question.
BY THE WITNESS:
A.
don't.
MR.
second?
MR. LONDON:
BY MR. LONDON:
Q.
A.
I don't know.
KLENK: Can we
Let
Do you know
No.
(WHEREUPON,
Brad Wyatt is? Have you
go off the record a minute~
answer the question?
I don't know if I know or
go off the record for a
me just finish,
who Jack Trindl is?
a certain document was
sae
IB5
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
marked Jacobson Deposition Exhibit
NO. II, for identification, as of
7112184.)
a document that has
identification.
your recollection as
with Carla.
ad agency.
BY MR. LONDON:
0. I show you
as Jacob8on Exhibit ll, for
Does that refresh
who Brad Wyatt is?
A. Yes. Brad works
Q. Who is Carla?
A. Carla Merriman at our
Q. Cunningham & Walsh?
been marked
to
A. Yes, but what is that (indicating)P
MR. KLENK: He asks the questions, not you.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q- And do you know Jack Trindlg
A. Jesus. I don't know. I don't know.
I
don't know.
Shall I read this?
Q. Yes. Do you know how come Jack Trindl was
brainstorming for new topical ideas --
A. I haven't the slightest idea, not the
slightest.
Q. -- for BBM-TV?
sae
Jc:,oo , o G81814B47
186
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
A. Not the slightest. But
MR. KLENK: Don't speculate.
questions.
THE WITNESS: Sorry.
BY THE WITNESS:
A. Is there a question?
MR. LONDON: Read it back.
I suppose BBM-TV --
Just answer his
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested, as
follows:
"Q. Yes. DO you know how
But
come Jack Trindl was brainstorming
for new topical ideas --
"A. r haven't the slightest
idea, not the slightest.
"Q. -- for BBM-TV?
"A. NOt the slightest.
I suppose BBM-TV --
"MR. KLENK: Don't speculate.
Just answer has questions.")
right?
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. You suppose BBM-TV asked them,
A. I don't have any idea --
You never asked --
sae
cW,,ff , 681814648
~gt--,~o~ ~[fi.,,t, • (312) 78~.8087
187
1
2
3
4
g
6
7
8
9
I0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
-- but i doubt it.
Q. You never asked anybody over
program idea, right?
MR. KLENK: Objection.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. Is that right?
MR. KLENK: You
answered it before.
there
asked that question. He's
for a
BY THE WITNESS:
A. Did I ever ask any of these people for
ideas?
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. Have you ever --
A. Not that X remember.
Q. Have you been told that anybody else did?
A. NO, not that I remember.
Q. Have you ever seen this memo before,
Exhibit llg
A. No, definitely.
Q. Did you ever do a program on any one of
those subjects?
MR. KLENK: Objection to the form of the
188
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
l0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
question. A pzogram Could be reading a news story
or a perspective.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. Did you ever do a commentary on any of
those subjects?
A. Specifically
I'Ii take
A. Generally
environment.
Q.
A.
Q,
A.
O.
A.
or generally?
it either way.
I've done commentaries
on the
Other than that?
NO.
No other subject?
Nothing on here.
Listed on Exhibit ii?
That's correct.
(WHEREUPON, Gary Cummings
left the deposition proceedings.)
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. DO you participate at all in the
discussions leading up to decisions made by your
advertisers as to how to advertise your perspectives~
A. Only to the extent that I told you before.
Carla and Lilly, right? Lilly Eide and
Carla Nerriman?
sae
q¥oE/.,
189
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
A,
Q.
A.
I can't -- yes.
MR. KLENK:
before.
BY THE WITNESS:
Y~s,
That is right?
And people in Lilly's
office on occasion.
think we have been over this
A. Do I participate? On occasion, minimally,
only to check my facts -- only for me to check their
suggestions.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. Did you have anything to do with the
decision to exclude Cunningham & Walsh from
promotional advertising with respect to the
broadcasts of November 9, I0, and ll, 19817
A. NO.
Were you aware that Exhibits 7 and 8 were
created by or placed through Cunningham & Walsh?
No.
Q. And is it correct that you did not learn
until today, if, in fact, you've learned it
not
that
today?
A.
Q.
Correct.
Have you ever discussed with anyone at
190
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
Cunningham & Walsh their role in being the
advertising agency for BBM as it interacts with
their role for being an agency for other advertisers?
A. No.
Q. Never discussed that with anybody there at
all?
MR. KLENK: Objection. You asked the question.
He answered.
Answer it again.
BY THE WITNESS:
A. No.
BY MR. LONDON:
Q. All right, sir.
MR. LONDON: Now, what we said before about the
contract, the same rules apply to the financial
statement, is that correct?
MR. KLENK: That's correct. There is a
confidentiality order with respect to Mr. Jacobson's
financial statement; and any testimony about that,
I'd like to similarly have
if necessary to be filed.
(WHEREUPON,
had
are
separately and under seal
certain proceedings were
designated as confidential and
transcribed under separate
191
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
i0
Ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
cover,)
sae
651814653 :
208
Ei
di
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
l0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2O
21
22
23
24
within
STATE OF ILLTN01E )
SS:
COUNTY OF C 00 K )
I, SHASYN A. EVERMAN, a Notary Public
and for the County of Cook, State of
Illinois, and a Certified Shorthand Reporter of said
state, do hereby certify:
That previous to the commencement of the
examination of the wit~ess, the witness was duly
sworn to testify the whole truth concerning the
matters herein;
That the foregoing deposition transcript
was reported stenographically by me, was thereafter
reduced to typewriting under my personal direction
and constitutes a true record of the testimony given
and the proceedings had;
That the said deposition was taken before
me at the time and place specified;
That the said deposition was adjourned as
stated herein;
That I am not a relative or employee Or
attorney or counsel, nor a relative or employee of
such attorney or counsel for any of the parties
hereto, nor interested directly or indirectly in the
outcome of this action.
sae
209
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I0
ii
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
........ 7__S WHEREOF, I do hereunto se~ my
hand and affix my seal of office at Chicago,
Xllinois, this ll~l~_ day of~ .........
1984.
C.S.R.
My commission expires January 23, 1988o
Certificate No. 84-2315.
sae
