Youth and Marketing
Brown & Williamson Tobacco Corporation vs Walter Jacobson and CBS, Inc., Deposition of Michael Radutzky
Abstract
Deposition of Michael Podutzsky. Discusses a news program called Cigarette Perspectives, which he researched, produced and aired. Contents of program were fires started by cigarettes, educating children and prevalence of cigarette advertising. Discusses advertising or product placement in movies such as Superman II and Body Heat. Brings up topics such as candy cigarettes, sampling to minors and moving promotions like the Merit wagon or Marlboro truck. Presents sections of confidential FTC report. Mentions the pot, wine, beer, sex strategy developed by Ted Bates for Viceroy cigarettes. States that this strategy is designed to attract starters by featuring young people demonstrating a free and easy hedonistic lifestyle. Claims Brown and Williamson never adopted the strategy.
Fields
- Notes
Original document code was 495.
- Company
- Brown and Williamson Tobacco Corp.
- Marketing Type
- PromoProg
- Sampling
- Billboard
- MediaBudg
- ProdPlace
- Sampling
- Target Market
- young adult
- Youth
- Major Subject
- Advertising and Marketing
- Legal Issues
- Minor Subject
- Advertising and Marketing -print advertisement
- Advertising and Marketing -product placement
- Advertising and Marketing -promotional item/program
- Advertising and Marketing -research --study
- Advertising and Marketing -sampling
- Advertising and Marketing -strategy
- Advertising and Marketing -target market --youth (<18 years old)
- Federal Trade Commission (FTC)
- Public Relations
- Tobacco Industry -marketing policies --youth
- Advertising and Marketing -product placement
- Author
- Radutzky, Michael
- Wolfe, Rosenberg and Associates Inc
- Brand
- Viceroy (bw)
Document Images
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS
EASTERN DIVISION
BROWN & WILLIAMSON TOBACCO )
CORPORATION, )
)
Plaintiff, )
)
)
)
WALTER JACOBSON and CBS, INC.,)
)
Defendants. )
NO. 82 C 1648
July lO, 1984
9:50 a.m.
The deposition of MICHAEL RADUTZKY,
resumed pursuant to adjournment at Suite 3000,
One IBM Plaza, Chicago, Illinois.
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PRESENT:
MESSRS. PAUL, WEISS, RIFKIND,
WHARTON & GARRISON,
(345 Park Avenue,
New York, New York 10154), by:
MR. LEWIS R* CLAYTON,
appeared on behalf of the
MESSRS. REUBEN & PROCTOR,
(19 South LaSalle Street,
Chicago, Illinois 60603), by:
MR. dAMES A. KLBNK,
-and-
MESSRS. SIDLEY & AUSTIN,
(One First National Plaza,
Chicago, Illinois 60603), by:
MR. THOMAS H. MORSCH, P.C.,
appeared Or* behalf of the
Plaintiff;
Defendants.
REPORTED BY:
PATRICIA K. GRAVES, C.S.R. and
CORINNE T. GENNA, C.S.R.,
q¢of/,, _d,=.
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MICHAEL RADUTZKY
(Resumed)
By Mr. Clayton
E___x H Z B _I ~_S_
~_U_M_SER
Radutzky Deposition Exhibit
No. 28
NO. 29
NO~ 30
No" 31
416
471
48~
565
609
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have
been previously
and
MICHAEL RADUTZKF,
called as a witness herein, having
duly sworn and having testified, was examined
testified further as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Mr. Radutzky, you u~derstand that you are
still sworn and still under oath?
A. Yes.
Q. Since the last session of your deposition,
you read anything in connection with your
testimony here today?
A. I've glanced at
Trade Commission report.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
O.
A.
Q.
A.
(Resumed)
the report, the Federal
The full version of tne report?
No.
The confidential pages?
Y~s.
And what in particular did you read
I just perused it generally.
there?
Did you look at any other documents?
No, sir.
Did you have any discussions with anyone?
Yes.
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Q. With whom?
A. Walter Jacobson.
Q. And what was the substance of your
discussion with Mr. Jacobson?
A. I had just asked him to pay attention.
Pay attention to what?
A. To the questioning and to the
proceedings.
Q. Why did you tell him that?
A. Just so he would pay attention.
Q. What did he say?
A. Something to the effect that he
thankful for the word.
Q. Did you tell him anything about
substance of what your testimony had been
prior sessions of this deposition?
A. NO.
Did he ask?
A. No.
Q. Did he say anything else to you
this conversation?
else
was
the
at the
during
A, NO.
Q. Have you had any discussions with anyone
since the last session of your deposition?
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~o.
Q. I believe that in the last session Of your
deposition, as we were going through the chronology
of the preparation of the cigarette Perspectives, we
had come up to a point which you testified was in
October when you spoke with Mr. Jacobson, who told
you at that time that the piece should be run as
soon as it was re~dy.
Do you recall that testimony?
A. Yes.
0.
the piece
A. No.
Q. Did you know why he
A. NO.
Q. Did he give you any
or specific, at that time?
Did Mr- Jacobson tell you why he wanted
to run as soon as it was ready?
wanted that? "--
deadline, approximate
A. NO.
Q. Did you ask him about a deadline?
A. Nu.
Q. Did you discuss the timing of the
broadcast at all during that conversation?
A. NO.
Q- Was the word "sweeps" mentioned during
I,
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that conversation?
A. No.
Q. Have you given us the full
that conversation with Mr. Jacobson
you recall i% now?
A. I don't fully recall
previously testified to.
Q. Okay. After your conversation with Mr.
Jacobson in October -- by the way, we will come back
to that conversation. But after this conversation,
what was the next thing that you did in connection
with the cigarette advertising -- strike that.
What wa3 the next thing you did in
connection with the cigarette Perspectives?
A. I had continued to gather visuals for the
piece.
Q. What are visuals?
A. The visual images that will accompany the
words on the air.
Q. What visuals had you gathered by the time
of October?
A. Some billboards.
Q. You mean photographs of billboards?
A. Correct. Slides. And I believe at this
substance of
in October, as
what I have
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time we had photographed the couch i[ivOlved in the
cigarette-started fire Perspective.
That was a videotape?
A. Right. And some cigarette machines.
What was the purpoge of havlng the visual
of cigaKette machines?
A, Just to visualize the cigarettes.
Q- HOW had you planned to ~se that in
connection with the Perspectives?
A. At that point, I didn't know quite how it
would be used,
Q. What other visuals Had you gathered by
this time?
A- I had received some tape of tobacco farms.
Q. Where did you get that tape from?
A. 'From the CBS News tape library.
Q. Where is that?
A. New York,
Q. Who did you speak to to get ~hat tape?
A. A librarian whose name I don't recall.
Q. Had you asked for any other materials from
CBS News in New York at this time?
A. NO.
Q. Any other visuals that you had gathered at
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the time?
A. I don't believe so.
Q. DO you know who had made the tape of the
tobacco ~arms?
A. It was stock footage.
Q. And what was on ~he tape, if you recall?
A. Fields of tobacco.
Q. After gathering all the visuals to which
you have testified, what did you do next to set more
visuals at this point?
A. I had a clip from the movie Superman If.
Q. Where did you get that?
A. It had been in one of the drawers for use
by the film critic.
Q. Well, did you just
go ~nto the drawer Or
did you have a discussion with someone to find out
where it was and get access to it?
A* I bad spoken with G~ne Siskel about it,
who is the film critic. I had asked him where I
could find the film clip.
Q. Approximately when do you recall having
this conversation with Mr. Siskel?
A. Sometime in October.
Q. What was the substance of that
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conversation?
A. I had asked him if he was able to locate
the tape of the movie Superman II that he had used
for his review so I could incorporate that, possibly
in a Perspective we were working on involving
cigarette advertising.
Q. -Did you indicate to him in any way why you
wanted to incorporate such a tape in your broadcast?
A. If I recall correctly, I had told him that
the Marlboro truck was used in that movie, and I was
going to be possibly interested in using it, but I
wanted his okay to use his clip.
Q. Did you have any other discussions with
him about cigarette advertising?
A. NO.
Q. What did he say in response to your query?
A. I don't recall. He okayed the use of the
he okayed the fact that I could take the clip out of
his drawer.
Q. Did you ask him about any other places
where you might
advertising?
A, NO.
Q.
find examples of
cigarette
Did you volunteer anything on that topic?
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call
A. No.
Did you discuss how to get permission from
the distributor of that movie to use the tape?
A. I had asked him once again who the maker
of the film was.
Q. Did he --
A. And he %old me.
Q. Did you call the maker of the film?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Do you know if someone else from WSBM did?
A. Yes, I believe they did.
Q. Who was that?
A. Tim O'Donnell.
Do you know what Mr. O'Donnell said to the
distributor?
A- NO,
Q- Did Mr. O'Donnell subsequently tell you
that he had received permission from Warner to use
the film?
A. He subsequently told me that he had
received permission to run the film in still form.
Q. Did you ask Mr. O'Donnell to make that
to the distributor?
A. I asked him to get permission if he could
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to use the tape.
Q. After getting the Superman tape, what was
the next thing you did in connection with additional
visuals for the broadcast?
A. I had gathere~ some more slides of
billboards and taxicabs with cigarette ads on
I had begun working with the art department on
several graphics to be used
Q. This is" all in October
working with them?
A. Yes.
Where did you get these
billboards?
A. On the streets of Chicago.
Q, Who took the pictures?
A, I had taken some of them and a
photographer employed by us took
full
Q. You mean employed
A. No.
Q. Employed
assignment?
A. No.
Q. This is
time to time on a
in the piece.
that you began
slides of
the others.
time by WBBM?
just with respect to this
a photographer who is used from
contract or freelance basis by
them .
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WBBM?
A. Correct.
Q. What is his name?
A. Kevin Horan.
Did you instruct Mr.
Horanas to what kind
of photographs he should take?
A. I had asked him -- yes, I did.
Q. What did you tell him?
A. I was looking for photographs that
depicted cigarette advertising.
Q. What kind of cigarette advertising?
A. I didn't go into it beyond that.
Q, Well, you testified previously that in
your opinion cigarette advertising is pervasive
Chicago; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q, Did you give the photographer any
guidelines to choose among the different ads that
are part of this pervasive environment?
You just asked that
MR. KLENK: Objection.
question and he answered it.
You can go ahead and answer it again.
BY THE WITNESS:
A. I told him to take pictures of ads.
in
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BY MR- CLAYTON:
Q. So you gave him no direction other
just take pictures of cigarette ads?
A. Not just cigarette ads, cigarette
advertising, or cigarette -- the presence of
cigarettes.
than
Q. You mean any mode of cigarette advertising
or merely the presence of cigarettes in Chicago?
A- Correct.
Q. Did he come back to you wi~h any work?
A. Yes.
Q. When?
A. During the month of October.
Q. Did you review the work with him?
A. I don't recall that I did.
Q. Did you discuss it with him at all?
A. I believe I did.
Q. How many photographs did he come back with?
A. Approximately 80.
Q. Where are those photographs now, do you
know?
A. NO, I do not.
Q. DO you think they are among the materials
which were discarded by you?
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A . Yes .
Q- Might there be any of them at home or
still in the office anywhere?
A. I don't believe there are.
Q. DO you recall wh~ther there were any
Viceroy advertisements or illustrations of the
Viceroy brand among these 80 photographs?
A. I do not recall.
Q. Do you recall any of those pictures
specifically now?
A. O~e.
Q. Which one is that?
A. Newport Red.
Q. Why do you recall that one specifically?
A. I don't know.
Q. Were any of these photographs actually
used in the cigarette Perspectives?
A. Yes.
Q- Which ones, if you recall?
A. f don~t recall.
Q. What was the substance of your discussion
with the photographer?
A, I was concerned with the framing on a few
of the photographs, and I expressed to him the fact
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that some of them were not in clear enough focus and
some of them were not framed properly.
Q. Did you say anything else?
A, Not that ~ recall.
Q, Did you ask him to do any more photographs?
A. Yes.
Q, What did you say on that score?
A. I just asked him to shoot some more.
Q. Did you give him any guidance as to what
he ought to look for?
A. NO.
Q, Did you tell him why you wanted him to
shoot some more?
A. Yes.
Q. Why?
A. Because I was concerned with the fact that
some Of them were OUt of focus and some of them
weren't frame properly.
Q. And did he in fact shoot some more?
A. ~es.
Q. How many more did he shoot?
A. I~m not certaiN.
Q. Do you recall any Viceroy ads among those?
A. NO.
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him
or
Q. YOU don't recall whether
you don't recall the substance?
A. I don't recall the substance.
Q. Do you recall receiving additional
photographs from him?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any more discussions with the
photographer?
A. Not to my recollection.
Q. Were you also taking your own pictures of
billboards at this time?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have anything in particular in
mind there when you were shooting photographs?
NO, I did not.
Q. And then you had another discussion with
after he came back with additional photographs?
A. 1 don't recall.
you did or didn't,
Q. What else did you do in order to get
ahold of visuals for the Perspectives?
A. I had phoned the television station in
San Francisco.
Q. The CBS station?
A. NO.
.... Jr:....,. • /3,2 782-,o87681815092
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Q. Which station?
A. An NBC station.
Q. What did you say to them?
A. Well, I didn't speak directly with the
people at the NBC station. I had spoken to Andrew
McGuire.
Q. About what?
A. About obtaining -- he had ~ copy of a tape
that was used on KRON-TV that depicted a strategy --
a way in which to demonstrate burning cigarettes-
Q. Dxd you speak with Mr. McGui~e over at the
San Francisco station about cigarette advertising at
all?
A. NO, I did not.
""
Q. What else did you do to gather visuals?
A. I c~lled the television station in Boston,
I believe it was WNEV.
Q. What did you say to them?
A. Asking for some tape of a particular date
that aired on their news.
Q. A particular date? A tape of a particular
story?
A. Of a particular story that ran on a
p;~,'ticu~ar date.
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Q. What story was that?
A. It was a cigarette-started fire.
Q. And what gave you the idea to call the
Boston station?
A. I don't recall. I don't recall who told
me.
Q. Did you talk to the Boston station at all
about advertising?
A. No, 1 did not.
Q. The next thing you did regarding visuals?
A. I worked with the art department again on
setting up a graphic of cigarettes in an ash tray.
Q. Who did you work with?
A. Jim Mulroyan.
Q- Anyone else?
A. And one or two of his graphic artists.
Q. How many artists are employed by WBBM?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you often work with the art department
to develop graphics for your broadcasts?
A. Yes.
Does a reporter always work with the art
department when a visual is being developed by the
art department for a broadcast?
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work
is
A, l'm not a reporter.
Q* Does a reporter or a researcher always
with the art department when the art department
developing a visual for a broadcast?
A. I do. I can't answer for --
You always did for your broadcasts and you
can't a~swer in general?
A, Correct.
Q. What was the purpose
in an ash tray graphic?
A. It was to be used to
of having a cigarette
font the various
i~gredients in a cigarette.
What do you mean by font?
A, Those are character-generated letters,
computer-generated letters that form words on a
screen. Those are fonts-
Q. This graphic was to be a background to
some computer-generated letters which would indicate
ingredients in cigarettes?
A, Correct.
Q, Did you work with the art department on
any other graphics?
A. OR a -- yes,
Q. A~e we in october nGw~ these discussions
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with the art department?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the other graphic or graphics
that you worked with them on?
A. A television set that would convey the
message that cigarette advertising on a television
is off limits to the tobacco industry.
Q- Was this going to be a still frame or a
moving picture?
A. A still frame•
Q. It would just be a television set with
some kind of bar through it?
A. I didn't know what it was going to be.
That's why I consulted the art department.
Q. Did it turn OUt to be something?
Did they
in fact doing something?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did they do?
A. It was a picture of a television set with
one of those no-smoking signs in place of the
picture tube.
Q. Anything else, any other graphics you
worked on with the art department?
A. Not at that time.
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Q. Did you work with them later on other
graphics?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. Moving into November.
Q. Approximately when in November, do you
know?
A. From the end of October, from the middle
of October ~hrough the end Of October, through the
day that the Perspectives aired.
Q. $o, were you working with the art
department continuously on these graphics from the
middle of October until the broadcast date?
A. No. I was working on other Perspectives
as well.
Q. Who
department in
A. Jim
the
Q. The
othergraphics you described?
did you speak with at the art
November?
Mulroyan and some of his assistants.
same people who had been working on
A. Not necessarily.
Q. Mulroyan worked on all of
A. I don't know.
Q. Who did you --
these graphics?
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A. I know that he is the supervisor.
Q. What was the substance of your discussions
in November with Mulroyan or other graphic artists
in the art department or with anyone else in the aft
department?
A, Lots of
technical types of discussions.
Q. u What do you mean by that?
A. Where you assign X number to X image and
send it over to the media room to be stored on
magnetic tape to be called up at the time of the
broadcast.
Q. Let's leave those ~echnical discussions
aside.
What discussions did you have regarding
the substance of any visuals Or the development of
any visuals wi~h the art department?
A. Aside from the ones I've already related
to you?
Q. Aside from the ones you have already
testified to.
A. Up until the day of air of these pieces,
had asked them to make art cards,
Q. Which are?
A. They are black pieces of cardboard that
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have documents or ads or any type of piece of paper
pasted to it, so that a studio camera can shoot it.
Qo TO make a still store?
A, No, To creat8 movemen:,
Q. What was on these art cards? What was to
be on the art cards?
A° -I don~t believe I can give you
for graphic accounting --
Q. I want your best recollection.
A. -- of what is on these.
A picture of Rudd Pyles.
Where did you get that?
A. Spor~s Illustrated.
Did you take that out
Illustrated?
from
a graphic
yourself from~ Sports
A. No.
Q- How did you get it?
A. Walter Jacobson took it Out.
Q. How did you get the Rudd Pyles picture
Mr. dacobson? Did you have a discussion about
it with him?
A° I had received numerous Sports
lllustrateds f~om the gentlemen in the sports
department.
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O.
A. And --
~. ~nd did
lllustrateds?
A.
Q.
at them?
A.
Yes. And then?
you look at those Sports
Yes.
What were you looking for when you looked
For the advertising of -- for cigarette
advertislng of sports and sports ~vents.
Q. Were you looking for deceptive
advertising?
A. Not per se.
Q. Were you looking for cigarette
to youths or young people or children?
A. I was looking for ads that depict people
cigarette
advertising
participating in sporting events.
Q. How many Sports Illustrateds did you get?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Can you give us an approximate number, 5,
50, 20?
A. Somewhere in the area of 30.
Q. Did you come up with any ads after
reviewing these 30 or so magazines?
A. Yes.
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Q. DO you recall which ads those were?
A. There was Rudd Pyles.
I thought you testified that you got the
Rudd Pyles advertisement from Mr. Jacobson.
A. NO, I did not. Mr. Jacobson is the one
Who pulled the ad out of the Sports Illustrated.
Q. Okay. Let's just be clear we are straight.
You have testified that you reviewed these Sports
lllustrateds yourself?
A. Correct.
Q. After reviewing them, did you pull Out any
ad s?
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the
A. I pulled out some ads.
Q. And do you recall which ads those were,
ads you pulled out?
A. I pulled Out a Virginia Slims ~d.
Q. Do you recall any others?
A. No~ not -- I don't recall right now.
DO you recall any Viceroy ads from there?
Yes.
Q- You did pull some Viceroy ads out?
One.
Q- Do you recall anything about that ad?
A. St is an ad that you showed me earlier.
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Q. I will show you, Mr. Radutzky, some
documents which are Viceroy advertisements which we
have previously marked as Exhibits 22 through 27. I
ask you to examine them and tell us whether one or
more of those
referred to.
ads are the Viceroy ad that you
(WHEREUPON, the documents were
tendered to the witness.)
BY TEE WITNESS:
A. Yes.
BY ME. CLAYTON:
Q. Could you indicate by exhibit number which
one it is?
A. Exhibit No. 22.
Q. Thank you. What did you do with the ad
resembling Exhibit NO. 22?
A. Z cut it out of a magazine.
Q. What did you do then?
A. Cut around the type.
Q. What else?
A. I had the art department mount it on &n
art card.
Q. Anything else?
A. For broadcast.
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1 Q. Did you discuss with anybody at WBBM,
means Mr. Jacobson or anybody else, why you had
selected the Exhibit 22 ad?
A, Yes-
Q. Who was that discussion with?
A. Mr. Jacobson.
Q- _How many discussions did you have about
this ad, one or more?
A. I~ was either one discussion or a
~ontinuation Of the same discussion.
All with Mr. Jacobson?
A. Correct.
Q. Anyone else present?
A. No.
Q. Did you discuss the ad with anyone else
other than Mr. Jacobson?
A. No.
Q, What was the substance of that discussion
with Mr. Jacobson?
A° We were looking for a Viceroy logo that
could represent the Viceroy name on a graphic to
accompany mentions of Viceroy in the commentary.
Q. And you proposed this ad as such a logo?
Correct.
that
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or
didn' t?
A-
Q. What did Mr. Jacobson say to you?
He said it was okay.
Q. Did he ever ask you to get a different
to look further for Viceroy advertisements?
A, I don't rec~ll.
You don't recall whether he did or he
ad
Correct~
Q. And you don't recall whether he ever asked
you to look further for Viceroy ads either at this
time or ~t a later time?
A. He ~sked me later about Viceroy ads.
Q. Can you place in time approximately th~
conversation you have just related in which you
proposed Exhibit 22 as a Viceroy logo?
Sometime in November.
Q. You said Mr. Jacobson later asked you to
look further for Viceroy ads. And when was that?
A. ~ couple of days.
Q. What was the coDtext of that discussion?
A. He had asked me if I had some -- if I had
Viceroy ads that specifically depict a strategy
cited by the federal government.
Q. What did you say?
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A. I said I did not.
Q. What else was said during this
conversation?
A. I said ~ha% ~ had asked the Brown &
Williamson Company to send me ads that were
representative of Viceroy advertising, and %hat I
did not receive any from the company.
Q. What did Mr. Jacobson say to that?
A. I don't recall.
Q. When you said that during this
conversation Mr. Jacobson asked you to look further
for Viceroy ads, do you recall how he put that, what
the substance Of his words were?
MR. KLENK: objection. That is not- wha~ his
testimony was. You are ~ischaracterizing it.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Am I mischaracterizing your testimony, Mr.
Radutzky?
A. I don't understand your question.
Q. I had begun my question by saying that you
had earlier testified that Mr. Jacobson had aske'd
you to look further for Viceroy ads during this
conversation.
Perhaps it would clear things up if we
q Vd[,,
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would go back and have the reporter read that
question and answer back.
MR. KLENK: That would be fine.
MR. CLAYTON: Why don't we do that. I think
it's probably about four to five questions ago.
BY MR.
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the rep~Jcter as requested.)
CLAYTON:
Q, I will put a different question.
Did Mr. Jacobson in any way during this
conversation ask you to look further for Viceroy ads?!
A. Which conversation are we talking about
now?
Q. We are talking about the conversation in
which you told him that you did not have ads
specifically depicting the strategy.
A. And to that l told him I had asked the
company to send me representative Viceroy ads.
Q. I don't know if you have answered the
question. My question is: Did Mr. Jacobson say or
indicate in any way during this conversation that he
wished you to do anything further to try to get
examples of Viceroy advertising for this broadcast?
A. After I --
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BY
At any time during this -- okay,
Mike.
MR. KLENK: Finish your answer,
THE WITNESS:
A. After I responded -- after I gave him --
after I related to him the fact that I had asked the
company to send me representative Viceroy ads and
that they did not, he did not ask me further.
BY MR, CLAYTON:
Q. Was Viceroy discussed in any other way.
shape or form during this conversation?
A. Not at this time,
Q. Let's go back to the point at which you
received the Rudd Pyles ad. You testified that you
got that from Mr. Jacobson; is that correct?
A. I got that for Mr. Jacobson,
Q. You didn't get it from Mr. Jacobson then?
A. No,
Q. He didn't select those ads? He did not
select the Rudd Pyles ad?
GO ahead .!
A. He selected the Rudd Pyles ad among ads
from Sports lllustrateds that I had looked at and I
had received from the sports department.
Q, Okay. And when did he make that selection?
A. In November.
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Q. Was that during the same conversation in
which you had discussed the Viceroy ads?
NO, it was not.
Q. Let's now go back to your efforts to
gather visuals for the broadcast. You have
testified that you talked with the art department
about making a visual of a cigarette in an ash tray,
a visual of a TV set and several art cards. You
have testified about what you recall the substance
of those art cards to be.
Were there any other graphics you
discussed with the art department?
A. Yes.
Q. What were those?
A. To provide me with still photographs of
three legislators~ ~embers of the Congress, from
tobacco states.
Q. Who were they?
A. I don't recall right offhand.
Q. Any other graphics that you discussed wlth
the art department?
A. NO, I don't believe so.
Q. During the conversation in which Mr.
Jacobson asked you whether you had ads depicting th~
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Viceroy strategy, did he indicate to you why he
wanted such ads?
A. Yes.
Q. How did he indicate that to you and what
was indicated?
A. It was in the context of us being able to
illustrate the use of pictures precisely what it was
that the government was referring to.
Q. Well, what did Mr. Jacobson say as you
recall on that subject?
A. That's what he said.
Q. He said let's get something which
illustrates what the government is talking about, or
words to that effect?
MR. KLENK: Objection. He was asked that
question and answered it-
THE WETNESS: I answered the question.
MR. CLAYTON: Read the question and the answer
back.
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested.)
MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Do you recall anything else regarding
Viceroy or the FTC report which was said during this
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conversation?
A. NO,
Q. Was
conversation?
A.
Q.
broadcask
not in this conversation.
there anyone else present during this
Were you discussing other graphics
at the same time?
A. Yes.
Q." Have you completed your
the graphics you
for the
testimony about
discussed with th~ a~t department?
A.
Q.
A.
Hospital
O,
did you?
A. NO.
Y~s.
What else did you do to gather visuals?
I had made an appointment with Cook County
to shoot its burn unit.
You didn't discuss advertising with
Q. What else did you do regarding visuals?
A. I had made a still frame of the Brook
Shields ad that was on videotape.
Shields ad?
Q. Where did you get the Brook
A. From a CBS News piece.
Q. When you say CBS News, do
network news in N~w York?
them,
you m~an the
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A. Yes.
Who did you talk to there?
A. I don't recall.
How did you make your request to -- in
what words did you make your request to CBS News for
this piece?
A. I don't recall the exact words.
Q. How did you know to go to CBS News in
New York for this piece?
A. : had been told that CBS News had had some
video of the proceedings on Capitol Hill where the
name Of Brook Shields and her ads came up.
Q, Who told you that?
A. I don't recall.
Q, And did you get the material from CBS News?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you get anything else with it from
them?
A. NO.
Q. Did you ever make any request of anyone at
CBS News in New York for other materials which might
be relevant to your cigarette Perspective?
A. I had asked CBS News for some still frames
of legislators.
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Q. Did
CBS News who
general with
A. NO.
Q. Did you
help or advice?
A. No.
Q. Have
story you have
A.
Q.
A-
you ever call or speak with anyone
you thought might be familiar in
the cigarette industry?
ever look to them for research
you ever done so in connection with
worked on?
at
I don't recall.
What else did you do regarding visuals?
Can you flush that q~estlon Out? I don't
understand.
Q. Certainly. We have be~n going through
some testimony a~out what you did to assemble
visuals for the broadcast.
A. Okay.
Q. And you have discussed things such as
getting slides of billboards, videotapes of couches,
stills from movies, sever~l graphi=s that you asked
the art department to prepare, and now some visuals
which you obtained from CBS News in New York and
elsewhere.
After you obtained all of this material, I
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would like to know what else you did to get
visuals for the broadcast,
A. Nothing, that I recall.
Q. Are there any other visuals that you
otheE
recall having gathered in connection with the
cigarette Perspectives?
A. - I have already testified to a number of
other visuals in our previous depositions, correct?
Q. Well, do you recall anything that you
haven't testified to in these other previous
sessions which are visuals?
A, NO.
Q. The answer is no?
What was the still frame of the Brook
Shields ad? What kind of ad was that, do you recall?l
A. I believe it was a poster of Brook Shi~ids
~;ith cigarettes coming OUt of her ears.
Q. What was the purpose of getting that?
A. It was to depict the proposed use of Brook
Shields as an antismoker for a campaign by the
government.
Q. Were you considering at that time
mentioning the Brook Shields ad in the Viceroy
Perspective or the cigarette Perspective?
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A. Yes.
Q. Did you
topic?
A. Yes.
Q." Mou have testified regarding the visuals
you gathered. Y,~u testified regarding your
conversation with Mr. Jacobson in October at which
he told you that the broadcast should air as soon as
it was ready.
I would like to know what you did next
actually write anything up on that
after your conversation with Mr. Jacobson in October
other than the work which you testified to regarding
visuals. What happened next? We are back in
October here.
A. I spoke with a vice president for
advertising and marketing at the Philip Morris
Company in New York.
When was that?
A. I don't recall exactly.
Q. Approximately, Mid-October, late October,
early P;ovember?
A. Sometime in October.
Q. What was the purpose of making that call?
A. TO ask about the appearance of Marlboro
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cigarettes and the Marlboro name in movies.
Q. You made this call because you were
planning to use the Superman still; is that correct?
A. I was considering using it and
speak to the people in New York.
Q. Were you considering using any
information about Marlboro or
than the Superman topic?
A. Candy cigarettes.
I wanted to
other
Philip Morris, other
Q. What connection did you believe that had
to Philip Morris?
A. I had seen cigarettes with the Marlboro
logo on them, and I was concerned with the
connectionl if there was one, between the ~se of the
name and the logo on candy cigarettes, whether there
was any knowledge or consent on the part of the
Philip Morris Company to use its name Or its logo to
promote candy cigarettes or candy bubble gum.
Q. Were you thinking of anything else with
respect to Morris at this time?
A. The Merit wagon.
Q. Anything else?
A. The movie Body Heat.
What cigarette brand appears there?
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A. Marlboro.
Q. Anything else?
NO.
Who did you ask for when
Q.
Morris?
A. I asked for a spokesman for the company
who could-address issues of advertising.
Q. Did you discuss the fact that yo~ were
going to call Morris with anybody at WBBM or CBS
before you made the call?
A. No, I don't recall.
Q. DO you recall discussing it with Mr.
Jacobson?
A.
nO.
you called Philip
~o. Not at the time Of the phone calls,
Q. The purpose of this call, I t~ke it, was
to get ~.lo~is' comments on these four topics that
you have mentioned: This is, Marlboro in movies,
candy cigarettes, the Merit wagon and Body Heat;
that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Who were you connected to when you made
the call?
A. To the best of my recollection, I was
is
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connected to a vice president of marketing
advertising.
Q. DO you remember his name?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Were you making notes during the
conversation with him?
A. - Yes.
Q. Where are those notes now?
A. I don't have them anymore.
DO you believe they are among the
materials that you discarded?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you introduce yourself to the
Philip Morris vice president?
A. I told him who I was and where i worked
and what I did for the company for whom I work.
Q. Did you tell him what you were working on?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you describe that?
A. I told him I was working on a series of
reports involving the tobacco industry, among them
cigarette-started fires, the clout of the industry,
and advertising.
Q. What did you say next?
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455
i
A. I had asked the man about the appearance
Of the blarlboro truck --
Q. Well, what precisely did you say about the
Marlboro truck?
A. I had asked him -- I had told him I had
seen the Marlboro truck a number of times in the
movie.
Q. Superman you are speaking of?
A. Yes. And I asked him whether he paid a
fee to the makers of the movie in order for his --
the name of his company to appear in the film.
Q. Well, in addition to telling him that you
had seen the Marlboro truck in Superman, dld
you
tell him that you were planning o~% running a story
which would say that Marlboro had placed the truck
in that film?
A. I said we were working on a report
involving advertising, and I wanted to ask him some
questions regarding the appearance of Marlboro in
Superman II.
Q. What did he say when you asked whether
Philip Morris had paid a fee?
A. He said that they dld not.
Q. When you made the call. did you have
any
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reason to believe they had paid a fee?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the basis of that belief?
A. Somebody told me that they thought that
Philip Morris had in fact paid for it.
Q. DO you recall who that was?
A. -Not offhand.
Q. When he told you that they did not pay a
fee, what did you saynext?
A. I said, "Who approached who?"
Q. What did he say?
A. He said that the company had -- the makers
of the film had approached Philip Morris- And I
asked him why, and he said they wanted to depict
reality in the best way they could.
Q. Were those his words or is that your
paraphrase?
A. Those are pretty much his words.
Q. And what else was said on this topic?
A. Then I had asked him -- I had said
"I have never seen a Marlboro truck before,"
said, "We have plenty of Marlboro trucks."
O. What else was said?
A. I said sometbing to the effect that on a
to him,
and he
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movie that is supposed to -- that is claiming to
depict reality, why a Marlboro truck, because once
again I have never seen one before anywhere.
And he said?
A. He said, "Well, we have them." And then I
asked him about advertising in a movie that is going
to be seen by millions of young people --
Q. . Well, what did you say specifically on
that topic, what did you ask?
A. I don't recall exactly. I'm paraphrasing
the way the conversation took place.
Q. Okay. Go ahead. What was said on that
topic?
A. the ~ovie,
not
lot of people see
j ust
to him in any way
advertising to
I said a movie
was it a
advertise your
He said a
children.
Q. Well, did you indicate
that you thought that Morris was
children by --
A. I had asked him about it.
that is seen by millions of children,
conscious effort on your part to
product in that movie?
Q. What did he say?
A. He said there are a lot of people who see
• i
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the movie.
Q. Did he say anything else?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Did you tell him the basis of your belief
that Marlboro or Morris had paid someone to get the
truck in the movie?
A. I had told him that I had heard that that
was the case.
Q. Did you tell him where you had heard that?
A. No.
Q. Did he ask?
A. No.
Q, When he told you that Philip Morris had
not paid a fee, did you believe him?
A. I don't know that I formulated an opinion
one way or another.
Q. Have you given us
the whole substance of
this conversation as it relates to advertising in
movies and to Superman, or is there anything else
you recall on those topics that was said?
A. I asked him about Body Heat.
Q. What was said there?
A, I said that I had seen the appearance of
packages of Marlboro a number of times in the film,
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and wondered once again if -- who had approached
whom and whether or not money exchanged hands.
Q. And what did he say?
A. And he told me no. But like he did on
Superman film, he said that he gave -- he gave
free cigarettes.
Q. He said he gave the Superman film
producers free cigarettes?
A. And the makers of Body Heat.
Q. Anything else said about Body Heat?
A. NO*
Q, Did you ask him who the distributor of
Body Heat was~ or who he had talked to at the
distributor of Body Heat?
A. No.
Q. Anything else said about movies during
this conveEsation?
A. NOt that I recall.
Q. Was Brown & Williamson mentioned in the
conversation with this vice president of Philip
Morris in this conversation?
A. I don't believe so.
Q. Was Viceroy mentioned?
A. NO, X don't believe so.
the
them
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O. Cool?
A. 1 don't believe so.
Q. Fact?
A. 1 don't believe so.
Q. The FTC report?
A. I don't believe so.
" Q. " Did yo~ tell the Morris person about any
portion of the Perspectives you were working on,
other than those portions which dealt with Philip
Morris?
A. Would you please repeat the first part of
your question?
Q. I'll rephrase the whole thing.
Did you indicate or discuss to the''Philip
that your broadcast would
than Ones pertaining to Philip
Morris vice president
houch on topics other
Morris?
~. Yes, I told ]]i~ -- yes, I did.
Q. Did you discuss those topics
or just in general?
A. General•
Q. Not specifically, then?
A. Not specifically-
Q. Okay. Fine.
specifically
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Have you now given us everything that you
discussed about movies and Body Heat and Superman
with the Philip Morris person?
A. Yes.
Q. What was said about candy cigarettes?
A, He said that the company has nothing to do
with the people who make candy cigarettes and bubble
gum.
Q. What did you say? Did you question that
in any way?
A. I asked him if he thought it was a
violation of their trademark.
Q. HOw did you know to ask about trademarks?
A. It just Occurred to me~
Q. Had you discussed candy cigarettes with
anybody before you talked to the Morris person?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was that?
A. My father.
Q. Anyone else?
A. NO -- yes.
Q. Who?
A. Dr, Blum.
Q. Anybody else?
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wi th
A. Not that I recall.
Q. When did you talk to your father?
A. I don~t remember.
Q. Approximately, do you remember the month?
A. Sometime September, October.
What else was said during the conversation
Morris about candy cigarettes?
A. He didn't think it was a violation of
their trademark.
Q. Anything else?
A. NO.
Q. The Merit wagon, what
there?
A. I asked him about the
I told him it was in our city, and
how much it cost, and he told me.
Q. How much?
A. $270,00d, I believe.
Q. What else was said?
did you talk about
Merit wagon being a -
I had asked him
A. We discussed whether or not it was --
whether he thought it was an effective way to
advertise his brand of cigarettes, the company.
Q. What was said on that score?
A. I said something to the effect that it
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doesn't -- it's a rather New technique,
it was a new technique, a departure from your
billboard/magazine form of advertising,
Q. What was his response?
A, He agreed and he thought it
idea.
Q, Why did he say it was a great
MR. KLENK: Objection, All he can
is what the man told him.
BY MR, CLAYTON:
Q. Do you know why he thought it
idea?
A. He said that all kinds of people could
answer questions about current public events,
Q. ~id you criticize the use of the Merit
wagon in this conversation?
to
I suggested
basic
was a great
idea?
testify to
was a gre~t
A. No.
Q. Did you discuss the use of the Merit wagon
advertise to young people or children?
NO. I don't recall.
Q. H~ve you given us the whole substance of
this Morris person
~h~ discussion about Merit now?
A. Yes,
Q. Did you ever speak to
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again or with anyone else from Morris?
A. I don't recall. I may have had a second
conversation with him.
Q. HOW soon after the first conversation?
A. Very soon.
Q. What was the reason for that next
conversation?
A,
I may have asked him in the second
conversation what the truck cost in that second
conversation.
The Merit truck?
A. The Merit. And as well, the
giving out cigarettes to klds for free
practice of
on the street,
Q. You mean cigarette sampling?
A. Yes.
Q. That's distinct from the Merit wagon?
Is
it distinc~ from the Merit wagon?
A. Cigarette sampling? Yes.
Q. HOW iong was this first
the Morris ~-
A. About 15 minutes.
Q. How long was the second?
A. I don't recall.
DO you recall anything else
conversation with
that was said
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during the second conversation?
A. I recall we talked about cigarette
sampling and whether or not there were -- I ~sked
him what his policy was on that.
Q. Give us the substance Of that discussion.
A. He said it was the policy to give out
cigarettes to people who wanted them if they asked,
so long as they were over the age of 21.
Q. Had you brought up the topic of sampling
to children or young people, is that why he
responded with the over 21 remark?
A. No.
Q. You just asked generally about what his
practices were?
ove£
A. That is the best of my recollection.
Q. Did you question him at all about this
21 practice?
A. Not in detail.
Q. Well, to what extent did you question him?
A. I told him that I had seen people
smoking -- receiving cigarettes for free On the+
street who --
Q. What did he say?
A. -- who were under the
age of 21. And I
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believe he said that it was -- it wasn't the policy
of his company to do that or any company that he
knew of, I think.
Q. Anything else said on this topic?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask him whether that policy was
written down?
A. NO.
Q. Did you ask him whether other companies
had t~at policy?
A. NO-
Q. During either of these conversations with
the Morris vice president, did you ever ask for any
materials to be sent to you by Morris? "
A. No.
Q. Did you indicate when you believed the
broadcast would be aired?
A. I don't recall giving him a date.
Q. Did you indicate in so~e approximate way?
A. I don't believe I did that, either.
Q. Did he ask about that?
A. NO.
Q. Other than these two conversations, do you
recall any other conversations in connection with
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the cigarette Perspectlves that you had with anyone
from Morris?
A, NO.
MR. CLAYTON: DO you want to take a break for
about five or ten minutes?
MR. KLENK: I was going to suggest ~t myself.
(WHEREUPON, a recess was had,)
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MR. CLAYTON: Back on the record,
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Have you now given us the full substance
of
your conversations with the Morris vice president?
A. To the best of my recollection, yes.
Q. After these discussions or in addition to
these discussions with Morris, what did you do at
this point in connection with the cigarette
advertising, in connection with the cigarette
Ferspectives? Excuse me.
A. I had attended a meeting in Lilly Eide's
Approximately when was that?
Sometime in October.
Who is Lilly Eide?
I 'm not certain of her title. She
involved in information services.
Q. Do you know what the function of
information services is?
A. Not all of their functions,
Q. Which functions do you know
A. Advertising, promotion.
Did Lilly Eide --
A. And art.
~o.
about?
is
office.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
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Q, Excuse me. Did
or did she or did a third
up?
A. I don't recall. I was
a meeting in her office.
Q. DO you recall who
A. ~ No.
Q. Who else attended the
A. Myself, Jim Mulroyan,
you initiate thls meeting
person or persons set it
just told to attend
told you?
meeting?
Lilly Eide, Brian
Blum. Frank Gardner stepped in and stepped out, the
same for Greg Caputo. I believe that's it.
Q. How long did the meeting last?
A. Approximately a half hour.
Q. What was the purpose of the meeting?
A. To discuss what it was I was working on.
Q. Why was that a subject of discussion with
these people?
A. For the possibility of promoting it.
Q. For the possibility of promoting it. You
mean the meeting was to discuss whether or not it
should be promoted?
A. The meeting was to discuss what it was I
was working on.
Q. Was one purpose of the meeting to discuss
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whether what you were working on should he promoted
or advertised by WBBM?
A. I don't know.
Well, I am asking for your understanding
at the time you came to the meeting.
A. My understanding at the time was to
present the information that I had:
Q. You had no further understanding as to why
these people wanted that information?
A. And to discuss ways in which it could be
promoted.
Q. Who is Brian Blum?
A. He's one of the people who work for Lilly
Eide. He cuts spots.
Q. What does that mean?
A. For TV.
Q. What does it mean to cut a spot?
A. He produces it.
Q. What is a spot?
A. A spot is an ad for television or for
radio.
Q. You mean normally brief ads?
A. I don~t know.
MR. CLAYTON: I would like this to be marked as
ctg
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Radutzky
• )
Exhibit NO. 28.
(WHEREUPON, a certain document was
marked Eadutzky Deposition Exhibit
NO. 28, for identification, as of
7-10-84.)
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Mr. Radutzky, I hand you what has been
marked Exhibit NO. 28 and ask you to examine it,
please.
471
(ShoKt pause.)
MR. KLENK: Is there any p~rticular part that
you wanted him to look at?
MR. CLAYTON: I will direct him to portions.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Have you now completed your examination of
Exhibit 28, Mr. Radutzky?
A. YeSo
Q. Have you ever seen Exhibit 28 before?
A. Yes.
Q. When?
A. My lawyer showed it to me.
Q. When was that?
A° I don't recall.
Q. Do you recall approximately when?
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A. NO.
Q. Did you see it in connection with your
testimony at any of the sessions of this deposition?
A. go.
Q. Did you read the exhibit at that time?
When you were shown it by your lawyer, did you read
the whole thing or did you read parts of it?
A. Yes. I read most of it.
Q. Do yo~ know whether you saw it in a final
form or a draft form at that point?
A. ' I think I saw it in a final form.
Q. Were you ever asked to comment on or give
information for the purpose of supplying
Interrogatory Answers in this case?
A. Yes.
Q. By your attorneys?
A. Correct.
Q. Did you discuss the substance of
Interrogatory Answers or the information you
provided with anybody at WBBM?
A. NO.
Q. You discussed it only with
is that correct?
A. Yes.
those
your attorneys,
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Q. Directing you to page 23 of Exhibit 28 to
the words "Politicians, clout and cigarettes, Monday
at IO," and the exhibit indicates that that is a
promotional message relating to the cigarette series
which appeared on WBBM-TV, is that a spot as you
have referred to it?
A. NO.
Q. Are any of the advertisements that are
indicated on pages 23 through 32 spots as you have
referred to them?
MR. KLENK: Which page? What was the last page?
MR. CLAYTON: 32.
BY THE WITNESS:
Yes.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
0. Which ones?
A. 24, 26, 27, 29, 30, the items on the
bottom of 31, and 32.
Q. What makes those messages spots and the
others in this series not spots? What is the
difference?
A. I suppose it's ambiguous really. Just my
vernacular.
Q. I guess I am just asking for what your
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understanding of what spots means.
A. The items on the other pages are generally
referred to as news ID'S.
Q. How would you distinguish between a news
ID and a spot?
A. I correct myself. They are considered
ID'S.
Q* HOW would you distinguish between ~n ID
and a spot?
A. An ID is something that runs 4 seconds or
less.
Q. And a spot is a little longer, is that it?
A. Correct.
Q. That's the basic distinction?
A. Correct.
Q. You testified that you attended
hour meeting in Lilly Eide's office
you bring any materials with you to
A. Yes.
Q. What did you bring?
A* A note pad.
Blank or with materials
A. Blank.
Q. Anything else?
on it?
a half
in October. Did
that meeting?
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A. That's all I brought with me.
Q. Had you sent any documents to anyone in
preparation for this meeting?
A. NO.
Q. Who opened the meeting?
A. Lilly.
Q. What did she say?
A. I don't recall what she said.
Q. Can you give us your general recollection
of what she said?
MR. KLENK: Objection. He just said he didn't
recall.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. You recall nothing about what she said?
A. T9 open the meeting, no, I don't,
Q. What did she say in general at the meeting?
A. That we were -- I was here to inform them
of some of the things that I was working on and they
in turn were there to ask me follow-up questions-
Then we as a body were there to talk about ways in
which these ideas could be promoted.
Q. Promoted for what purpose?
A. For the purposes of on air promotion or in
irint media.
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Q. What happened next? Did you speak
someone else speak?
A. I spoke.
Q. What did you say?
A. I outlined for them what it was I was
working on as it related to the cigarette
or did
Perspectives.
Q. Weren't you working on other things at
same time? Well, in addition to your work on the
cigarette Perspective, didn't you have other
projects you were working on in your capacities at
WBBM?
A. Right.
Q. Did you discuss
A. NO.
Q. Why not?
A. I was there to
tobacco industry.
Q. From where did
that you were only there
those also?
discuss my work on the
you get your understanding
to discuss your
the
work on the
tobacco industry as opposed to your work on other
projects at WBBM?
A. I was told in advance to come up to Lilly's
office to discuss what was going on as it related to
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the tobacco industry.
Q. Who told you that?
A. I don~t recall. I just recall I know I
was going up to discuss what was going on.
Q. Did you have a feeling that you were there
to discuss the tobacco industry as opposed to the
other pro~ects you were working on at the time?
A. I got the feeling they wanted to promote
it.
Q. DO
projects you were working on at
A. NO.
Q. Would it be more than
A. Yes.
Q. More than 10?
A. NO.
best
was
Q.
c~se?
you know approximately how many other
the time?
5?
Q. Somewhere between 5 and i0 would be your
recollection?
A. Correct.
Q. Did you ever ask anyone why this project
selected out as a possibility for promotion?
A. NO.
Did you ever wonder about why that was
the
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478
A. NO.
Q. Mow did you outline what you were working
on on the cigarette Perspectives? What did you say
on this topic in this meeting?
A. I discussed the cigarette Perspective that
would include the clout of the tobacco industry, and
I outlined this general scenario of the cigarette
industry on the one hand -- excuse me. The
government on the one hand as it ~elates to
cigarettes supporting tobacco and on the other hand
the government spending money to alert people about
the health risks Of smokin9.
The apparent contradictio~i is what it is I
laid out in part one.
Q. Did you discuss the other parts also?
A. In part 2 I discussed that cigarettes
started fires, the way in which there is a cigarette
cigarettes patents, numerous patents, for cigarettes
that h~ve a propensity to self-extinguish, but that
they have not been approved by the Congress and
2,300 people a year died in fires started by
cigarettes and there is X amount of property damage
and health costs incurred.
Then we talked about cigarette advertising.
Ctg
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479
We talked about -- I outlined the scenario whereby
the idea was that there are numerous ways now to
advertise cigarettes as opposed to the old days when
Santa Clause would talk about Lucky Strikes and how
doctors would promote Camels as being easy on their
throat.
Times have changed• Cigarettes are no
longer able to be advertised on television. 8o,
there is a new -- some new techniques that have had
to develop, some new forms of advertising, new media
to accommodate the elimination of a medium, being
television, and to accommodate the perception among
people that cigarettes are hazardous to your health
and discussed ways in which the i~dustry goes about
it.
And I said that we had a Federal
Government report that talked about various
strategies to advertise particular brands and a
campaign to get starters.
Q. Have you completed your answer?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you say that the FTC report mentioned
sophisticated tactics to induce young people to
smoke? DO you recall saying that?
etg
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A. Yes.
Q. DO you
Lexington Herald
this meeting?
A. Yes.
recall if you had read the
Leader article before you came tc
Q. What other materials did you read in
preparation for your presentation?
A. Most Of the material that I have already
£estified to having read.
Q. Confidential pages of the FTC report?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you say that you had obtained any Of
the documents referred
A. We are talking
documents?
Q. Correct.
A. No.
Q. Did you
those documents?
A. I may have.
Q. Do you have any
way or the other?
A. I very well may have.
precisely, but I believe that I
to in the FTC report?
about the footnoted
say you hoped
or planned to obtain
recollection on that one
I don't recall
did.
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get
Q. You believe you did say that you hoped
the documents referred to by the FTC?
A. - Correct.
Q. Did you say you planned to get those
documents?
A. No.
Q. Did you indicate where you might' be
getting those documents from?
get
the
to
government maintained
strategy had been
beer
A. NO.
Q. Did you say that you hoped or planned to
Viceroy advertisements illustrating or embodying
pot, wine, beer and sex strategy?
A. I don't recall making a mention of that.
Q. You don't recall mentioning the pot, wine~
and sex strategy?
A. Oh, I do recall mentioning that.
Q. What did you say about that?
A. I mentioned the strategy, the Viceroy
strategy, to attract starters to cigarettes.
Q. And did you indicate that Viceroy had
adopted that strategy?
A. I indicated that the
stated that it had.
Q. Did you say that the
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proposed by Ted Bates?
A. I don't recall using the name Ted Bates.
O- DO you recall whether you said the
strategy had been proposed by an outside advertising
agency?
A. Yes, I believe I did.
O. Did you say whether the company or that
Brown & Williamson denied that strategy had been
adopted?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Did you say anything else in'this
presentation that you recall?
A. It wasn't a presentation.
Q° Did you say anything else to describe your
work on the cigarette Perspectives?
A. We discussed ways in which it could be
promoted. I cited some numbers about the amount of
people who smoke, about the amount of people who die
in cigarette-started fires, the amount of money that
the government spends warning people about the
dangers of cigarettes versus the amount of money
that the government spends supporting cigarettes,
the amount of money that the cigarette industry
spends on advertising.
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Q. What did you say about ways to promote the
cigarette advertising portion of these Perspectives?
A. [ don't recall.
Q. Did you get any questions from the people
who were sitting there?
A. Some.
What did they say?
A. I don'~ recall the specifics.
Q. Do you recall in general what they said or
asked about?
A. No.
Q. DO you recall
during the meeting?
A. Yes,
Q. Who was that?
A. Lilly.
Q. Anyone else?
A. Jim Mulroyan perhaps. I
Can't be certain.
Q. Did you subsequently see
notes that were taken?
A. Yes.
Q. Under what circumstances?
A. My lawyer showed them to me.
if anyone was taking notes
don't know. I
any of those
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Q. When was that?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Was that in preparation for
deposition?
this
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any discussions with
Eide in preparation for this deposition?
A. NO.
MR. CLAYTON:
Exhibit 29.
Lilly
I wo~Id like this to be marked as
(WHEREUPON, a certain document was
marked Radutzky Deposition Exhibit
No. 29, for identification, as of
7-10-84.)
BY ME. CLAYTON:
Q. You have been handed
as Exhibit 29, and I would ask
tell us if you know what it is?
A. Yes, I know what it is.
Q. What is it?
what has been marked
you to examine it and
A. According to my lawyer, those
notes that were taken by Lilly Eide.
are the
Q. I direct your attention to the page of
Exhibit 29 with the number stamp on the bottom 1201.
. 3,2JTa2 ,o,7 68181514,7
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as
the
A° Yes.
Q. Do those appear to you to be notes taken
Lilly ride was listening to your description of
advertising portion of the cigarette Perspective?
A. Yes.
Q. DO you know what she is referring to when
she says, "Real deceptioN-free ci@arettes, State
Street Mall, R. J. Reynolds-More"?
A. She is referring to the distribution Of
free cigarettes on the Sta%e Street Mall, More
cigarettes.
Q. When she says "real deception," does
refer to anything you said about distribution?
that
A. I don't recall.
Q. At the bottom it says, "Seal by court
order. Report made public first time." Does
that
refer to anything that you recall saying?
A. Yes. It says it had been sealed by
court
order.
Q° What?
A. The confidential portions of the FTC
report.
Q. What does "first time~' refer to, first
time [eport made public?
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A. Yes,
Q. Did you say how the report was made public?
A. I don't think so.
D. Looking at page 1202, which is the next
page, do you know what those words refer to, those
what appear to be various advertising slogans?
MR. KLENK: Would you read the question back,
please.
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested.)
BY TEE WITNESS:
A. They refer to advertising slogans.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Were
A. Yes.
Q. What
they discussed at the meeting?
else happened at this meeting?
A. We exchanged and listened to ideas about
ways in which the commentaries could be designed,
meaning in an artist's perspective, and worded.
Q. What do you mean by commentaries?
A. Walter's Perspectives.
MR. CLAYTON: Could you read the last 2
questions and answers back.
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
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by the reporter as requested.)
BY MR. CLAYTON:
0. What did you discuss on the subject of how
the Perspectives could be designed or worded?
MR. KLENK: Objection. That's not what his
testimony was. You can answer the question.
BY THE WITNESS:
A. I don't understand.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. You testified that you discussed ways in
which the commentaries could be designed or worded,
is that correct?
A. The ads.
Q. You said ways in which the commentaries
could be designed or worded.
MR. KLENK: That is not what he said.
BY THE WITNESS:
BY
A. That is not what I said.
MR. CLAYTON: Read that answer back again.
(WHEREUPON, t~e record was read
by the reporter as requested.)
THE WITNESS:
A. I am referring to ads.
MR. CLAYTON: Read back the next
question and
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answer where I ask him what commentaries were.
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested.)
MR. CLAYTON: Let's go off the record.
(WHEREUPON, discussion was had
off the record.)
MR. CLAYTON: Let's go back on.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Could you clarify your answer to that
question, Mr. Radutzky?
MR. KLENK: Could you explain your answer to
Mr. Clayton.
BY THE WITNESS:
A. We discussed ways in which an idea could
be promoted and the ways in which we would go about
promoting it, i.e., graphic design, headline wording,
body copy.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. What were the suggestions made On those
topics?
A. One suggestion was to have a cigarette
pack with what would appear to be the brand name,
having the brand name relate in some way to the
Congress, to Washington, D.C., and then the copy
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would be written on the side Of the package where
the warning label on cigarettes usually appears.
Q. Did you discuss any ideas relating to the
cigarette advertising portion of the Perspectives or
relating to Brown & Williamson or Viceroy?
A. No, not to my recollection.
Q. You discussed no ideas relating to the
advertising portion?
A. Correct.
Q. What else was discussed during this
meeting?
A. The elements that would make for an
interesting promotion.
Q. What were those elements?
A. Number of people who die in cigarette-
started fires, the fact that the government is able
to make a cigarette that tends to self-extinguish,
but hasn't; the fact that the government spends X
amount of money promoting cigarettes or tobacco
while at the same time the same government spends
money warning people about hazards of smoking.
Q. Do you know why Mr. Gardner or Mr. Caputo
came into the meeting?
A. To sit in.
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Q. DO you know what purpose they came in for?
A. To listen, I imagine. I don't know beyond
that.
Q. During 1981 how often did you attend
meetings with Lilly Eide or other people in the
information services department regarding the
promotion of pieces you were working on?
A. Several times.
When you say several, is that 3?
A. It's in the area of 3.
Q. DO you recall other stories which were the
subject of such meetings?
A. Yes.
Q. Which are those?
A. I had been sent to Atlanta, Georgia to
attend the National Conference of State Legislatures.
Q. When did the meeting Occur regarding that
story, approximately?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Was Lilly Eide also at
A. Yes.
Q. And were ads produced as
meeting?
A. I don't recall.
that meeting?
a result of that
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Q. What was the story that you were covering,
just the story of merely the fact that this
conference had been held?
A. The fact that a delegation of legislators
from Illinois were attending and that several
community organizations had expressed a concern that
the trip was going to be more of a pleasure junket
than anything else, anything else meaning the
business at hand as it related to the National
Conference of State Legislatures.
Q. Was a story in fact aired on this topic?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it in one part or more parts?
A. I believe it was in mo~e parts than one.
Q. 2 or 3?
A. TWO, I believe. I'm not certain.
Q. Was this a ~acobson Perspective or a
different kind of story?
A. It was a Jacobson perspective.
Q. In addition to that story, what is the
other story you remember having an advertising
meeting about?
A. I don't recall the subject matter.
Q- Do you recall when the meeting Occurred
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approximately?
A. NO.
Q. During the meeting with Lilly
regarding the cigarette Perspectives,
sweeps ever mentioned?
A. I don't recall.
Eide
was the
word
O. Was it mentioned, if you recall, in either
of the other 2 meetings that you attended regarding
advertisements?
A. I don't recall.
Q. DO you recall if those other 2 meetings
were held in the month or weeks before a sweeps
period?
A. They weren't.
Q. How can you place that recollection?
A. Because -- because I just do. I just
recall it.
Q. DO you recall specifically what months
those were in?
them
A. NO.
Q. What are the sweeps months?
right now as you sit here?
A. I believe that they are --
Q. November is a pretty easy one to
DO you recall
recall,
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isn't it?
A. November is one of them. February is
another one. I am not certain what the other one is.
I think it's April or May, but I'm not sure.
Q. During the meeting regarding the cigarette
Perspectives, did anyone ever discuss when these
broadcasts would be aired?
~o.
Were deadlines for
I have no idea.
You don't recall, is
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
saying?
A. I don't
Q, Did you
any understanding
advertising would
A. NO.
Q. Did you
that you would be
was
advertising discussed?
that what you are
recall.
come away from the meetinq with
as to how long after the meeting
be prepared?
~o~e
shown that advertisln9 before
actually published?
A. Yes ,
Q.
A.
Q.
away with an understanding
it
And how did you gain that understanding?
Past experience.
What past experience?
. 681815156
494
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A. When any ideas are bandied about for
possible use as promotions and the promotions
themselves are prepared, the people who are involved
in them look at them for accuracy.
Q. During 1981 how often do you recall Mr.
Jacobson's Perspectives being promoted by the
station?
A. I don't recall the number
just recall that they have been.
Q. DO you recall that it
infrequently during 1981?
A. I'm not certain.
of times. I
was Gone frequently,
You don't
Q. have any recollection on that?
A. NO.
Q. When you came to the meeting with Lilly
Eide, did you feel that it was unusual to have a
nleeting to discuss the promotion of a Perspective
you were working on?
A. NO.
Q. Did you feel it was a usual routine matter?
A. I didn't give it much thought in that
regard.
Q. Did anyone discuss why Cunningham & Walsh
was not working on advertisements for the cigarette
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Perspectives?
A. Yes.
Q. What was said on
A. Something to the
potential conflict of interest.
Q. In what way?
that topic?
effect that
there was a
A. That arose between the agency that had
worked for Brown & Williamson and the agency that
generally prepares promotions for our station.
O. Is that Cunningham & Walsh?
A. Yes.
Q. And who was talking about this subject?
A. Lilly~
Q. What did she say about it?
A. J~st had made that mention.
Q. DO you know why she brought it up?
MR. KLENK: Objection. He can't speculate on
the reason she did things.
MR. CLAYTON: I am not asking him to speculate
about anything. I am asking for his knowledge.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Do you know why she brought it up?
MR. KLENK: He can only testify what he heard
and saw.
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MR. CLAYTON: Certainly. He can certainly
testify as to what he perceived. When you perceive
things, sometimes you reach
people do things and you get
MR. KLENK: His beliefs
doesn't have anything to do with this.
MR.
conclusions about why
knowl~dge.
are irrelevant. It
Read back the question, please.
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested.)
KLENK: Answer the question, Michael.
BY THE WITNESS:
A. No.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q.
Walsh?
What else did she say about Cunningham &
if
A. Nothing that I recall except for the fact
that they wouldn't be involved in any kind of
Iromotion involving cigarette Perspectives.
Q. Did anyone else discuss Cunningham & Walsh
at this meeting?
A. No.
Q. What did Mr. Gardner say at this meeting,
you recall?
MR. KLENK: Objection, if he said anything.
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MR. CLAYTON: I think if
back, it says if you recall.
MR. KLENK: I am sorry.
BY THE WITNESS:
you read
the question
A. I don't recall
anything.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Do you recall anything about what
A. NOt I don't.
Q. What about Mr. Caputo?
A. I don't recall Mr. Caputo saying much
either.
Q. Do you recall anything about what he said
as opposed to the quantum of wha~ he said?
A. No. I recall them saying things, but I
don't recall the nature of what it was they were
saying.
Q. Did Lilly Eide ever see your outline for
Mr. Gardner saying much of
he said?
her that outline, do you
the Perspective series?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you ever send
recall?
A. I don't know.
Q. Subsequent to the
meeting, did you ever
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send anyone materials for the purpose
of the cigarette Perspectives?
BY
BY
MR. KLENK: Would you
of promotion
(WHEREUPON, the
by the reporter
THE WITNESS:
A. No.
read that back, please.
record was read
as requested.)
MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Have you now
the complete substance
meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened next
cigarette Perspectives?
MR. KLENK: Before we get on to what is next.
MR. CLAYTON: Shall we discuss lunch?
MR. KLENK: Let's discuss lunch.
MR. CLAYTON: Let's go off the record.
(WHEREUPON, discussion was bad
off the record.)
(WHEREUPON, the deposition was
recessed until i:00 p.m., this
date, July lO, 1984. )
given us your recollection of
of what was said at that
with respect to the
=tq
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS
EASTERN DIVISION
BROWN & WILLIAMSON TOBACCO
CORPORATION,
Plaintiff,
vs.
WALTER JACOBSON
and CBS, INU. ,
Defendants.
NO. 82 C 1648
The
pursuant to recess at
Chicago, Illinois.
July i0, 1984,
1:30 p.m.
deposition of MICHAEL RADUTZKY
Suite 3000, One IBM Plaza,
resumed
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PRESENT:
MESSRS. PAUL, WEISS, RIFKIND, WHARTON
GARRISON,
(345 Park Avenue,
New York, New York 10154), by:
MR. LEWIS R. CLAYTON,
appeared on behalf of the Plaintiff~
MESSRS. REUBEN & PROCTOR,
(19 South LaSalle Street,
Chicago, Illinois 60603),
MR. JAMES A. KLENK,
by:
-and-
MESSRS. SIDLEY & AUSTIN,
(One First National Plaza,
Chicago, ~llinois 60603), by:
MR. THOMAS M. MORSCN, P.C.,
appeared on behalf of the Defendants.
REPORTED BY:
SHARYN A. EVERMAN, C.S.E., and
PATRICIA K. GRAVES, C.S.R.
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MICHAEL RADUTZKY,
called as a witness herein, having been previously
duly sworn and having testified, was examined and
testified further as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Mr. Radutzky, after your meeting with
Lilly Eide and the other persons who you testified
were present, what happened next with respect to the
cigarette perspectives?
A. I called Thomas Humber.
Q. What was the purpose of calling Mr. Humber?
A. TO ask him some questions about the FTC
report and other matters.
Q. What other matters?
A. Cigarette sampling.
Q. What else?
A. Advertising in movies.
Anything else?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Why did you wait until this point to call
Mr. Humber?
A. I was waiting until I had most of my
information gathered.
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Q. Why?
A. SO that I was
would be fully apprised
had before me.
Q. DO you
broadcast at the
A. It depends.
Q. Depends upon what?
A. On circumstances.
-- so that I felt that I
of the information that I
usually call the subject of a
end of your investigation?
Qf Well, can you tell us what kindsof
circumstances it typically depends upon?
A. Nothing in particular.
Q. Well, what in general, if not in
particular, with respect to these circumstances upon
which it depends --
A. So long as I have the information before
me.
Q. I'm Not sure that you've responded
directly to my question.
My question was: Under what circumstances
do you decide to call the subject of the
investigation after you have completed your
investigation?
You testified, as I understand it, that
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you sometimes do and you sometimes don't, and you
said it depends upon circumstances.
A. I can't cite for you the specific
circumstances.
Q. How do you go about making a judgment as
to whether you're going to wait until the end of the
investigation to call the subject?
A. I like to have all the information that I
need to conduct an informed interview.
Q. Yet on some occasions, you call the
subject before you've completed your investigation,
is that correct?
A. On some occasions*
Q. Are those rare occasi0.~s?
A. Yes.
Q. So it's your practice usually to call the
subject after you've completed the investigation, is
that correct?
A. Usually.
Q. When you placed the call to Mr. Humber,
were there any aspects Of your investigation which
still remained for you to do?
A. I was still in the process of assembling
some of the visual elements of my story.
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Q. Those are the visuals which you've already
testified to this mornlng~ is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Were there any other aspects of your
investigation or preparation for the broadcast which
you had yet to do at this point?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Do you recall the date of your first call
to Mr. Humber?
A.
Q.
November?
Q,
Humber?
A.
Q.
A.
O.
It was in November.
Do you recall the speaific date in
I believe it was the 4th.
How many calls did you have with Mr.
I recall having two
How did you fix the
I just recall it.
Did you ever
conversations with him,
date at November 4?
see any memorandums written
by Mr. Humber regarding this phone conversation?
A. No°
Q. Have you ever discussed such a memorandum
with anybody?
A. Yes,
sac
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Q. With whom?
A. My attorney.
Q. Anybody else?
A. No.
Q. Were you read portions of such a
memorandum by your attorney in preparation
testimon~ you might give at this
A. NO.
Does
phone call was
discussions regarding
Humber regarding this
A. In part.
for any
deposition?
your recollection that your first
on November 4th stem in any way from
memoranda prepared by Mr.
conversation?
Q. You have been informed, then, that the
memorandum indicates that a conversation was held on
November 4%h?
A. Repeat the question.
MR. KLENK: The complaint says that.
MR. CLAYTON: Mr. Klenk, there may be a lot of
things which say that. There might be court papers
which say it, too. But I want to know whether he
was informed whether the memo said it.
MR. KLENK: I'm going to object to getting into
attorney/client conversations of what he was told.
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MR. CLAYTON: These are conversations which
were preparing him for fact testimony.
MR. KLENK: You asked him if any portion of a
memorandum were read to him, and he said no.
MR. CLAYTON: Could I have the last pending
question read back?
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested.)
MR. CLAYTON: Are you going to direct the
question, or may ~ have
witness not to answer that
an answer to it.
MR. KLENK: Would you
please?
read the question again,
BY
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested.)
MR. KLENK: You may answer the question.
THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the question?
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
as requested.)
by the reporter
THE WITNESS:
A. I'm not certain of that.
BY ME. CLAYTON:
Q* DO you recall being informed as to
anything else regarding the substance of any
s~e
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Humber regarding your
to Mr. Humber?
& Williamson Tobacco
memoranda prepared by Mr.
conversations with him?
A. No.
Q. How did you get connected
A. I phoned the Brown
Company.
Q. What did you say?
A. I asked for somebody who could speak in an
official capacity for the company.
Q. With respect to which matters?
A. Nothing specifically; with respect to
matters involving the company.
Q. Who were you connected to?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Before you placed the call to Brown &
Williamson, did you discuss that call with anybody
at CBS?
A. NO.
Q. Did you discuss it with anybody?
A* NO.
Q. What happened next?
A. I reached somebody -- I'm not certain who
it was -- and I asked if I could speak with an
official of the company who was authorized to speak
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to the media, after announcing who I was.
And if I recall correctly, Mr. Humber
returned the call to me later, and that's when we
had our first conversation.
Q. Did he return the call on the same date
that you had initially placed your call?
~* Yes, I believe so.
Q. What did you say when Mr. Humber called
you back?
A. I told him that I was an investigative
researche~ for WBBM-TV, the CBS station in Chicago.
Q. Did you use the words "Perspective Unit"?
A. I don't believe I did.
And I told him that I was working on a
series of reports about the tobacco industry.
Q. Go ahead.
A. I told him what areas it involved.
Q. What did you say there about the areas?
A. It involved the clout of the indust:y, the
cigarette-started fires, and advertising.
Q. What did you say then?
A. I asked him if I could ask him some
questions about this FTC report that I had.
Q. Did you tell him that you were also
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investigating other cigarette companies?
A. I believe I told him we were working on
stories that involved the cigarette industry.
Q. Did you men-tion specific companies other
than Brown &' Williamson?
A. Yes, I believe I did.
O. Did you mention Philip Morris?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Did you mention R.J. Reynolds?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you say next?
A. I told him that I had the FTC --
confidential version of the FTC report and that I
wanted his comments about certai~ aspects of it.
Q. Have you done anything in particular to
refresh your recollection regarding your
conversations with Mr. Number?
A. Nothing in particular.
Q. Have you done anything at all to refresh
your recollection?
Yes. Think about it.
Anything else?
A. No.
Q. There are no documents you have to refer
see
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to, are there?
A. The FTC report.
Q. Did you refer to the FTC report for the
purpose of refreshing your recollection regarding
these conversations?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you refer to any other documents for
that purpose?
A. NO, not that I recall.
Q. You took notes during your conversations
with Mr. Humber, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Are those notes among the materials that
have subsequently been thrown out?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you tell Mr. Humber where you got the
confidential portions of the FTC report?
that
about it?
A.
A. No.
Q. Did he ask you?
No,
Q° What did you say next after you told him
you had the report and you had some questions
I told him that I was going to -- that I
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had the
certain
to them.
Q.
A.
you what
Q.
MR.
which a
report in front of me and I wanted to read
portions of it to him and get his responses
What portions did you read,
If you want to give it
I did with it.
I certainly will.
CLAYTON:
portion of
do you recall?
to me, I'll show
I'm handing the witness Exhibit 41
the confidential pages of the FTC
report copied from the complaint in this action and
not bearing handwritten notes, and Exhibit 5, which
is the portion of the report produced by the
defendants which does bear Mr. Radutzky's notes.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Does that refresh your recollection or
help you testify as to which portions of the FTC
to Mr. Humber?
report you read
A. Sure.
Q. Which portions did you read to Mr. Humber?
A. I am not certain about the order in which
I read these things, but I do recall asking him"
about the mention by the government that Brown &
Williamson had -- that Brown & Williamson documents
show how the company "translated the advice on how
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512
to attract young starters into an ad campaign
featuring young adults in situations that the vas~
majority of young people probably would experience
and in situations demonstrating adherence to a free
and easy, hedonistic lifestyle."
Q. To which page are you referring?
A. Page 2-20. To the best
I read these portions to him over
as I came across them.
of my recollection
the phone verbatim
Q. Did he give you a response to each one, or
did you read them all?
A. He responded and I -- to the best of my
recollection, he would wait until I finished a
couple of ideas and respond to them directly after
certain segments.
Q. What was his response to the segment
you've just mentioned?
He said something llke it's -- "That's all
very subjective; your hedonism is not my hedonism,"
something to that effect.
Q. Anything else?
A. Not at that point.
Q. What did you say at that point?
A. I proceeded to read him another
portion of
a.
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the report.
Q. What portion?
A. The strategy that describes the way in
which to introduce starters to Viceroy.
Q. Are you referring to Page 2-18?
A. 2-17, 2-18.
Q. Which portions of those pages did you read
A. I read to him on Page 2-17 the area that
begins on how to persuade young people to smoke, and
I read the passage that follows.
Q. Anything else?
A. And reiterated the same kind of thing by
following the copy on to Page 2-18.
Q, You mean you just kept reading from 2-17
to 2-18?
A. I kept reading up until, I believe, the
end of those lined items.
Q. You read through and including "pot, wine,
beer, sex, et cetera"?
A. Correct.
Q. And you stopped there?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say at that point?
A. He said that the -- that the company had
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fired the advertising agency that had come up with
that strategy.
Did he name the ad agency?
A. Yes.
Q. What name did he use?
A. Ted Bates.
Q. Go on. What else did he say?
A. And he indicated that the company never
adopted this strategy.
O. When you say he indicated, did he say
specifically that the company had never adopted the
strategy?
A. Yes.
Q. What else did he say regarding thes~
passages?
A. I believe that at that time I interjected
a point.
Q. What was that?
A. And I had said that "The government says
that you adopted the strategy."
Q. Did you point to a specific portion of the
report in connection with your statement that "the
government says that you adopted that strategy"?
A. Yes.
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Q. What portion?
I read from Page 2-18 saying, "Brown &
Williamson adopted many Of the ideas contained in
this report in the development of a Viceroy
advertising campaign. Thus, in a document entitled
'Viceroy Strategy,' B&W notes repeatedly that its
advertising campaign must provide consumers with a
rationalization for smoking and a means of
repressing their health concerns about smoking a
full flavor Viceroy."
At that point, I cited Document 46.
You mean you cited the Footnote 46?
A. The Footnote 46.
Q- Have you completed you~ answer now?
A. And I had asked him -- well, yes. I'm not
sure exactly how the conversation flows from one
sentence to the
Q. Well,
next.
you read these portions.
Did he respond to that?
A. When Z said directly that the government
said Brown & Williamson adopted many of the ideas
contained in this report in the development of a
Viceroy advertising campaign and cited the document,
he said that it had been -- the government had taken
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it out of context.
Q. What else did he say?
A. He didn't elaborate directly to that
statement.
the
Q. Well, what else did he say in addition to
statements that were taken out of context?
A. I believe that he -- I think that he also
said that the company had been taken out of context,
and I had asked him for ads that were representative
of Viceroy during that time.
And he said -- and I asked him for the
footnoted documents that are cited by the FTC.
Q. If you had already seen examples of
cigarette advertising, including Viceroy advertising
why did you need examples of ads which were
representative from Mr. Humber?
A. Representative of the ads during that time
period that the Viceroy strategy was allegedly --
Q. You mean because you hadn't seen any ads
during that time period?
A. Correct.
Q. What was your understanding as to what
that time period was?
A. I believe it was a six-month period.
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Q,
A.
Q.
1976.
it
From when to when?
I don't recall the months.
Footnote 46 cites a document dated March
as to when
A. Yes, but I still can't tell you what
months we are talking about.
Q. I'm just attempting to see if
down to a calendar year.
Does that refresh your recollection at
the six-month period took place?
six-month
A.
Q.
other?
A.
Q.
3
all
six
you can pin
Was it your understanding that that
period had taken place in 1975 Or 1976?
Yes.
Do you know which one, or is it one or the
1976.
Essentially what you wanted from Mr.
Humber were ads, Viceroy ads, which had run during
the six-month 1976 period, is that correct?
A. In addition to other ads that he thought
were representative of the Viceroy name.
Viceroy name? What do you mean by that?
A. That were representative of the Viceroy
cigarette, ads that advertised for Viceroy.
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1 Q. At what point in time?
2 A. Presently as well.
Q. In addition to ads which were
representative of Viceroy during the six-month 1976
period and ads which were representative of Viceroy
at other times and in addition to the footnoted
documents.cited in this section of the report, did
you ask Mr. Humber for any other documents regarding
Viceroy during this conversation?
A. No.
Q. What did he say when you asked him for
these materials?
A. He said that -- I believe he said he
hadn't see~ some of these documents, but that he
would see what he could do.
Q. See what he could do with respect to all
three of the categories you've discussed?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ask him directly for these
materials?
Did you say flat out, "I would like
copies --"
A. Yes,
Q. Did you tell him why you wanted the copies?
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A. I don't know that I -- that I spelled it
out except to say that "I'm working on this piece,
and I'd like the documentation that you furnished to
the federal government."
Q. Now, what else was said regarding Viceroy
or the starter strategy during this conversation
with Mr. Humber?
A. I believe at some point there he asked me
when the story was going to run.
Q. What was your response?
A, I told him.
Q. Told him what?
A. The dates.
Q. What did you tell him?
A. I told him that I believed the story was
going to run in three parts and that the story
relating to advertising was going to run as the
third installment.
Q. What was the date or d~tes that you gave
him?
A. I don't recall exactly the dates.
Q. Was it a short time period after that?
A, Yes.
Q. Matter of how many? Seven days? Ten days~
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Four days?
A. Less than
O.
A.
O.
story was
A. At this
run.
Q. How did
information?
that.
Less than seven?
Yes.
How did you know at this point
going to run?
point I knew when it
you know? Where did
when the
was going to
you get the
A. I had been informed that it was going to
be running then.
Q. Okay. Let's go back to the time that you
had the meeting with Lilly Eide and the other'people
regarding advertising.
You testified, am I correct, that at that
time you did not know when the story was going to
run, is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. That meeting was sometime in October?
A. Correct.
Q. After that meeting,
conversations or did you read
gave you any
information
did you have any
any documents which
or discussed the timing of
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the cigarette perspectives?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. When was the first time that you
saw anything or discussed with anyone the timing --
well, a specific date for the airing Of the Viceroy
perspective or ghe cigarette advertising
perspectives?
A. I can't recall precisely.
Q. Can you recall approximately?
A. NO. I mean, sometime between October
November, between mid-October and when they ran.
Q. Okay. What happened at that time?
A. I was told that the -- that the pieces
were going to run on X, Y, ~nd Z ~ys.
Q. Do you redall if those turned out to be
the dates that the pieces actually dad run?
A. I can't say for s~re.
Q. Who gave you this information?
A. f don't recall. It was a -- I mus~ have
heard it from several people. That's why I can't
pin down any name.
Q. Can you identify any of the several
persons from whom you believe you heard it?
A. I heard it from Walter, I heard it from
and
gee
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Caputo, and I believe I heard it from Lilly Eide as
well.
Q. DO you know how the decision was made as
to the-specific dates that the perspectives would
run on?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Did you ever ask anyone about that?
A, NO.
Q. Did you eve~ hear any discussions on --
regarding how the decision was made?
A. NO.
Q. Did you ever see any documents or
memoranda regarding the scheduling of the cigarette
A. No.
Q. -- perspectives?
A. NO.
Q- Do you recall what Mr. Jacobson said to
you when he told you when the perspectives would be
broadcast?
A. I don't recall that he said anything other
than telling me when they were going to run.
Q. Did he tell you at that point to speed up
rout work or finish your research?
Did he give you any other instruction or
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advice at that point?
MR. KLENK: Objection.
question. He just answered.
BY MR. CLAYTOH:
Q. DO you recall
Caputo on these points?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall
Eide on these points?
A. NO.
Q. How about Mr+
A. No.
You've asked him the
any discussion with Mr.
any discussions with Lilly
Gardner?
what
what
Q. How about Mr. O'Donnell?
A. No.
Q. When Mr. Humber told you that he would see
he could do as to receiving these documents,
did you say at that point, do you recall?
A. If I recall correctly, I reiterated my
interest in receiving the documents from Mr. Humber.
Q. Did you say you needed to receive them
quickly?
A. As soon as possible.
Q. Did you ask him to send it to you by
Federal Express or some other expedited messenger
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service?
A.
O.
A.
Q.
service?
A.
If I recall correctly, I did.
Federal Express? Was that the service?
Federal Express, that rings a bell, yes.
What did he say at that point?
Did he agree to try to use an expedited
Absolutely.
Q. What was the next thing that happened in
this first conversation with Mr. Humber after you
read these portions from the FTC report and received
these responses?
A. If I recall correctly, I then discussed
with him the Fact cigarette strategy.
Q. With respect to Viceroy and Ted Bates, did
Mr. Humber tell you that at the time the strategy in
question was proposed to Brown & Williamson, Ted
Bates was in trouble regarding the Viceroy ~ccount?
A. Could you repeat that question?
MR. CLAYTON: Plead read the question back.
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested.)
BY THE WITNESS:
A. He may have said that.
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BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q° Do you recall him saying that?
A. Something to that effect.
Q. DO you recall him saying that the proposal
in question was a last-ditch effort on the part of
Ted Bates to keep the account?
A. NO.
Q. DO you deny that he said that to you, or
do you simply not recall?
MR. KLENK: Objection.
BY THE WITNESS:
A. I don't know.
MR. KLENK: You've asked him whether he can
recall it. It's a compound question.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. DO you deny that he said that to you?
A. I don't recall him saying anything like
that to me.
Q. Do you deny that he said that?
A. I don't recall him saying anything like
that to me.
Q.
Radutzky?
A.
Can you deny that he said that to you, Mr.
I don't recall him saying anything like
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that to
the words
question.
Q.
Humber
me. Unless you make a distinction between
"denial" and "recall," I can't answer your
Can you testified under oath
did not say those words to you?
that Mr.
MR. KLENK: I'll object. He said he can't
recall. You're asking him to speculate ~bo~t
something.
MR. CLAYTON: I want to know £f he denies it.
He s~ys he doesn't recall one way or the other. He
doesn't recall -- he says he does not recall Humber
using those words to him.
I want to know if he can take the stand in
this case and say, "No, Mr. Humber neve~ sa~ those
words to me." I want to know if he' s going to deny
it.
I think I'm entitled to know before he
takes the stand whether he's going to deny it. He
said he doesn't recall those words. I want to know
if he can take the stand and say, "No, sir, those
words were never said to me," or whether he merely
doesn't recall one way or the other.
MR. KLENK: He has said repeatedly that he does
not recall.
E,
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BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Do you recall Mr. Number calling this plan
a radical plan?
DO you recall him using those words?
A. No, I don't recall that.
Q. DO yo~ recall him saying that Brown &
Williamson did not request any advertising campaign
along the
A.
Q.
documents
only?
A.
Q.
described
published
lines suggested by the agency?
Yes.
DO you recall him saying that the
prepared by Ted Bates were their opinions
A.
MR.
Yes,
DO you recall him sayir~g that no ads as
in the Bates memo were ever actually
by Brown & Williamson?
Please repeat the question.
CLAYTON: Please read the question back.
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested.)
BY THE WITNESS:
A. I don't
remember him saying to me in that
they never adopted the strategy.
understand the question. All I
context was that
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BY MR. CLAYTON:
QI Do you recall him saying in addition to
that that the company had never published any ads
representative of the strategy that you had quoted
to him?
A. No.
Q. You testified that he told you that the ad
agency had been fired by Brown & Williamson.
DO you recall him saying that the agency
was fired in part because Brown & Williamson was
dissatisfied with
to?
the proposal
A. Yes.
Q. How did you bring up
A. In the context of it
that you had referred
the Fact subject?
being another element
of the federal government's report on cigarette
advertising.
What did you say about Fact?
A. I OnCe again referred to the
and quoted from it.
BY
report itself
Q. Could you tell us which portions?
(Short pause.)
THE WITNESS:
A. I read from Page 2-21, reading the first
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529
p~ragr~ph on th~ page to the effect that "Brown &
Williamson documents indicate that ~he c~mpany
believed that Fact cigarette were a new product
~hich r~d~ed the amount of harmful gas in the
cigarette smoke inhaled by the consumer. Therefore,
Fact was initially advertised as a brand with the
u~ique ability to filter certain gases. However,
initial sales of Fact were not considered satisfactor
by Brown & Williamson, so in 1977 it temporarily
halted all advertising and promotion of tbe
cigarette while it developed a new market strategy."
Then I turned to Page 2-23 to point out
the proposed weakness of the strategy, that the
strategy assumed that "gas will become a major
health issue. To ensure it becomes an issue will
require an educational approach in introductory
advertising. It is questionable whether any cigarett
manufacturer should be publicizing a new health
hazard for cigarette smokers. The desire to avoid
spelling out the gas haza:d in advertising could
severely weaken the effectiveness of this approach-"
Then I skipped down to the middle of Page
2-23, reading this next paragraph afterwards-
"Ultimately, Brown & Williamso~ documents indicate
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53O
that it elected not to educate the public about the
health hazards associated with the gases in
cigarette smoke and not to focus the Fact ad
campaign on the low gas issue."
And then I cited the marketing strategy
summary here on 2-23. "Until the problem of gas
becomes public knowledge through government
investigation or media coverage, a low gas benefit
will remain of little strategic value."
And then I skipped down ~o .that other
paragraph on the bottom Of the page. "We do not
support the definition in advertising of the problem
of gas in order to specifically communicate its
consumer benefit and distinguishing it from low tar.
To supply such definition would require overt
references to the alleged ciliatoxic and
cardiovascular ill effects of smoking." And I
didn't read all of that to him.
And then I asked him to skip to the last
paragraph on Page 2-24, saying, "Thus, despite the
potential market advantages it might have obtained
over i~s competitors by advertising the unique gas
filtration system of Pact cigarettes, Brown &
Williamson chose not to 4o so in order to avoid
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educating the public about the presence and
hazardous nature of gases in cigarette smoke.'*
Q. I see on Exhibit 5 on Page 2-23 and Page
2-24 there are marginal notes saying "read" next to
certain paragraphs.
Did those indicate that you had decided to
read those paragraphs to a Brown & Williamson
spokesman?
MR. KLENK: Objection. You asked him this the
first or second day of the deposition, what those
were intended to do. YOU are going over the same
ground.
MR. CLAYTON~ I'm trying to refresh his
recollection now that he's testified that he read
these specifically.
MR. KLENK: Could you read the question back,
please?
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested-)
BY THE WITNESS:
A. I don't recall. What I do know is that
they were points -- they were areas of interest that
I underlined, and they were also for Walter to look
at when going over these documents. If -- that's
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IBY
MR. CLAYTON:
Q- Were you writing
down any notes
conversation
report itself as you had this
Humber?
Ao NO.
Q. You were writing
separate pad?
A. Um-hum.
the notes down on a
Q. DO you recall if that pad had any other
materials regarding the cigarette perspective on
I don't recall.
Q, Do you recall what you did with those
notes after you had this conversation with Mr~
Humber?
A.
area.
Q.
respect
A.
on the FTC
with Mr.
I put them either in a drawer or a filing
it?
Did you ever refer to them again with
to the cigarette perspectives?
Yes.
Q, For what purpose did you refer to the~?
A. To refresh my memory on the content of the
conversation.
Q.
What was Mr. Humber's response after you
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read these sections regarding Fact?
A. He said that the company could never have
made a health claim in an ad.
Q.
A.
Did he say anything else?
Not that I recall to that question.
Q. Did you say anything else regarding Fact
in this conversation?
A. I asked him to send me the Fact ads that
outline the strategy a~d the supporting documents
cited by the FTC furnished to the government by the
company.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
reiterated my interest
documents.
O.
the 4th
A.
O.
A.
What did he say?
He said that he would see what he could do.
Did he say anything else?
That he would try to send it to me.
What did you say?
I don't recall saying anything, but that I
in having him send me those
How long did this whole conversation
of November take?
I don't know.
Can you give us an approximation?
35 minutes maybe.
on
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Q. Do you recall how many pages of notes you
took?
A. No.
Q. Were those notes ever shown to Mr.
Jacobson?
A. NO.
Q. Were they shown to anyone else at WBBM?
A. NO.
Q. Anyone at CBS or elsewhere?
A. NO.
Q. What happened next in this conversation?
A. To the best of my recollection, ~ think we
talked about advertising in movies.
Q. What did you say about that?
I ~sked him if he knew anything about the
advertising in the movie Superman and who may have
paid for it.
Q. What did he say?
A. He didn't know.
O. What else was said?
A. TO my
the end of that
understanding that we
shortly.
recollection, I believe that that
particular conversation with the
will be communicating again
is
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Q. What was the purpose of communicating
again shortly?
A. There were other elements that had to be
discussed.
Q. What elements?
A. Other elements of the report.
Q. ~ha~ elements?
A. Kools.
Q. What else?
A. And sampling. Cigarette sampling is not
referred to in the report. It was another element
wanted to discuss with him.
Q. Outside of Kool and sampling, anything
else?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Did you tell him that you
the FTC on any of these matters?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Did you tell him that you
Philip Morris?
A. I don't recall.
Q. At this time, had you ever
spokesman for R.J. Reynolds Company?
A. NO.
had talked to
had talked to
talked to a
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Q. Did
from the R.J.
A. No.
Q. DO
you subsequently speak
Reynolds Company?
you recall there being
with any person
an off-the-
record portion of your conversation on November 4?
A. NO.
Q. Have you now given us your complete
recollection regarding the November 4 conversation?
discuss this conversation with
A. Yes.
Q. Did you
anybody at WBBM?
A. Yes.
Q. With whom?
A. Jacobson.
Q. When?
A. The morning that our pieces aired.
Q. Before that morning, did you ever discuss
-- any of your conversations with Mr. Humber
Mr. Jacobson?
A. Not t'nat I recall.
Q. Anyone else at the station?
A. N~t that I recall.
Q. Anyone anywhere?
A. Yes, I guess. Joe Kolina.
this
with
s~e
BROWN & WILLIAMSON
1994-96 COLLECTION
PHOTOCOPYING VARIANCE FORM
g
D
AT THE TIME OF REPRODUCTION,
THE FOLLOWING NOTATIONS WERE MADE:
DOCUMENT COPIES ARE IN THE SAME SEQUENCE AS THEY APPEARED/N THE ORIGINAL.
PAGE NUMBER(S) WERE MISSING IN THE
ORIGINAL.
POOR QUALITY ORIGINAL:
#~.Cut Off ~1 Faded/Light Print
~1 2 Hole Punch ~1 Faded / Light Stamp
3 Hole Punch ~ Dark Odginal
CI Throughout Document
r7 Other
Faded Writing
Q Light Writing
Erased Writing
[7 Copied as Odginal
D Bleed Through
Smeared I Slurred
[-I NO DOCUMENTS WERE FOUND WITHIN THE ORIGINALS:
OVERLAY ITEM COULD NOT BE REMOVED WITHOUT DAMAGE TO THE ORIGINAL.
[7 NO DOCUMENT COPIES WERE FOUND WITHIN THE O~[G[NAL:
[7 File Folder
CI Redrope Expandable File
~1 Hanging File
Envelope
n Other (Specify)
[~ GOCUMENT COP~ES WER~ F~EPROBUCED IN COLOR TO PERMIT CORRECTION ~NTERPRETATION.
71 BATES NUMBER NOT USED.
[~ OTHER VARIANCE (Explain)
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Q. Who is that?
i A. He was a researcher in the unit at the
time.
Q, What was that conversation?
A. I just told him I had a conversation with
Brown & Williamson Company that lasted for about 35
minutes,
Q. When did you have this conversation?
A. After I got off the telephone.
Q. What else was said in this conversation?
A. Nothing-
Q. Had you been talking with Koiina in --
over the course of your work on the perspectives?
A. He knows that I had been working on-the
perspective pieces,
Did he help you in any
preparation of the perspectives?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he do?
A. He helped break down ~he
generated list of contributlons,
O. Did he do anything else?
A. NO.
Q. How do you spell his name?
way with the
computer-
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A. K-o-l-i-n-a.
Q. Where is he now employed?
WBBM-TV.
Q. What does he do now?
A. He's "an associate producer
of The Ten
O'clock News.
Q. Did Mr. Humber subsequently call you back?
A. I'm not certain how we talked againt
whether it was his phone call or mine.
Q. When was that next phone call? How soon
~fter the first phone call?
A. Z don't know. Next day, two days, three
days. I don't know.
It would be somewhere ~etween one and
three days?
A. I imagine so, yes.
Q. DO you recall doing anything with respect
to the cigarette advertising -- strike that.
Do you recall doing anything with respect
to the cigarette perspectives between the first and
second calls?
A. No.
Q. What happened in the next call?
A. We talked about Kools.
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Q~
report?
A.
read
Did you again read him sections of the FTC
Yes.
Q. Please tell us which portions.
A. I read from -- I referred to Page 2-20
from the second paragraph about "other
and
documents submitted by Brown & Williamson show that
the company has attempted to capitalize upon the
erroneous consumer perception that there is a health
benefit to smoking mentholated cigarettes.
Documents pertaining to the Kool cigarettes
demonstrate that the company is aware of the
consumer misperception about the relative safety of
menthol cigarettes and utilizes it in the
development of advertising strategies for Kools,"
And then I re~d from the footnote. It's
No. 49 on 2-20. I read the entire footnote.
Q. Okay. Did you read anything else?
A. No.
Q. What was the response?
A. I don't recall the actual
line of questioning.
Q. You don't recall
A. NO.
response
anything about it?
to'that
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Q. Do you recall if Mr. Humber said that the
important point here is that no advertising by Brown
& Williamson attempted to create the impression that
there was a health benefit to smoking mentholated
cigarettes?
A. I don't recall him saying that.
Q. . DO you recall him describing the R.L.
Johnson memo referred to in the FTC report as a
document written by an employee who had no authority
to launch an ad campaign?
A. ~e may have said that.
Q. Do" you recall him drawing a distinction
between employees who could approve advertising
campaigns and those who did not have such authority?
A. No, I don't recall.
DO you recall him saying that all BrOwn &
Wiliiamson ads must have the approval of the
company's legal department?
A, Yes.
Q. Do you recall him saying that all Brown &
Williamson ads must have the approval of the hig'hest
levels of
A.
senior management?
Perhaps.
DO you recall him saying that %he Brown &
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Williamson legal department makes no attempt to
insert itself into the creative process?
A. NO, I don't remember that.
Q. DO you recall him saying that the Brown
Williamson legal department does not review ad
until they are at the point of worked-up
proposals
ads?
A. I don't recall that as well.
Q. DO you recall him using the analogy of an
inexperienced young reporter who might, with the
best of intentions, draft a libelous story but have
that story corrected by his editors and attorneys?
A, Yes.
Q. Did you respond to that analogy?
A. I think I said something to the effect
that that sounds like a threat.
Q. What did you mean by that?
A. I'm not certain what I meant.
Q. Did you mean that it sounded like a threat
to bring a libel suit against you and CBS?
A. It sounded like a threat that -- to the
effect of watch OUt, beware.
Q. Beware Of that?
A. In general. It was
a veiled threat of
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some kind. I
what it was.
Q * Did
couldn't put my
you say anything
542
finger on precisely
else on the subject
of this threat as you perceived it?
A. I asked him if he could please send me the
ads.
Q% The Kool ads?
A. Yes.
Q. When you said to him that it sounded like
a threat, did he say anything in response?
A. I can't recall exactly, but it was an
attempt to be -- it was an attempt that followed
there to be friendlier. "We are good guys out here"
was, I think, the idea that he was communicating to
me.
And I had asked him for the ads and the
accompanying footnotes.
(WHEREUPON, a recess was had.)
MR. CLAYTON: Could you read back the last two
questions and answers?
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested.)
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Have you now given us your complete
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recollection with
conversation with
A.
O.
please?
A.
O.
A.
was of
free
people
and --
Q.
regard to your second phone
Mr. Humber?
NO.
Could yOU complete
your recollection,
We then talked about cigarette sampling.
What was said on that topic?
I asked him would he -- what the practice
his company as related to the distribution of
cigarettes. I told him that I had slides of
receiving free cigarettes who were teenagers
Were those slides of people receiving
Brown & Williamson cigarettes? _ ~-
A. NO.
Q. Did you tell him that?
A. I believe that I did.
Q. Okay. What did he say?
A. He said, "It's the practice of our
company --" and he believed that it was the practice
of all cigarette companies -- "not to give OUt
cigarettes to young people under the age of 21."
What else was said on this point?
A. I said, "But I have pictures to that
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544
effect."
Q. And he said?
A. "Well, it's not supposed to be that way."
Q. Anything else in that interchange?
A. No, not on tha~ topic.
Q° Do you recall anything else with respect
to this second conversation with Mr. Humber?
A. I don't recall.
Q. What happened after you got off the phone
with Mr. Humber for the second time?
A. Nothing that I recall.
Q. Did you take notes on this second
conversation, too?
A. Yes.
Did you put them with ~he notes on the
first conversation, or did you put them in a
separate file?
A. They were on the same tablet.
Q. DO you remember what else was on that
the notes of these two
do next with the cigarette
had your second conversation
tablet in addition to
conversations?
A. No.
Q. What did you
perspectives after you
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with Mr. Humber?
[ believe that I was adding the finishing
touches to ~y sample script and handed those over to
Walter, and then I also finished up on some of the
gathering Of visuals.
Q° Before we get to your sample script, did
you ever have
Humber?
A. Not
Q. Did
Humber?
A. Yes.
an additional conversation with Mr.
that I recall.
you ever receive a package from Mr.
O. Did the package contain Brown & Williamson
advertisements?
A. Yes.
Q. DO you recall what advertisements those
were?
A. There were advertisements for Kool
cigarettes.
Q. Anything else?
A. NO.
Q. Did you ever inform Mr. Humber that the
package had been received?
A. I don't recall.
see
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Q. DO you recall if he called you to see if
the package had been received?
A. I don't recall.
Is it correct that you recall no other
communications with Mr. H~mber other than the two
phone calls to which you've already testified?
A. That's correct.
What did you do with those KOOI ads that
you received?
A. I looked at them.
Q. Did you reach any conclusions after
iooking at them?
A. They were pretty.
Q. Any other conclusions?
A. NO.
Q. Did you decide that they fit the
description of the advertising goals for Kool
mentioned in the FTC report?
A. They didn't tell me much of anything.
Q. I'd like to show you, Mr. Radutzky, what's
been marked as Exhibit 8, which I believe you've
seen previously in this deposition.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the sample -- is that a portion of
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the sample script to which you just referred?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you begin preparing this sample
script?
A. About a week and a half or so, two weeks,
before it aired.
Q. What caused you to begin work on it?
A. I thought that it was time to pool the
vast amount of information that I had regnrding the
tobacco industry into some type of form that could
be easily referred to by Mr. Jacobson°
Q. Did Mr. Jacobson ever request that you
prepare a sample script?
A. NO.
WBBM
Q. Is "sample script" a term that you use at
to describe a particular kind of document?
A. Yes.
Q. What kind of document is that?
A. In the context of the Perspective Unit,
it's designed to assist Mr. Jacobson in the
preparation of his perspectives.
Q. Is it meant to suggest or propose
particular language to him?
A. I can't answer that question really.
/
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548
Q. In what ways is it designed to or meant to
assist Mr. Jacobson in preparation of a perspective?
A. For information and structure.
Q. Is it standard procedure to prepare a
sample script for each perspective?
A. Yes.
Q. -Does
sample scripts
perspective?
A., Rarely.
Q. Other than
ask you to prepare a
perspectives?
A. NO.
Q. How long did
sample script?
A. About a week and
Q. Were you given a
Mr. Jacobson or anyone else
script had to be ready?
A. No.
O. Was the language
sample script your
Of that language
Mr. Jacobson often take
and use that language in a
language from
Mr. Jacobsen, did anyone ever
sample script for the cigarette
it take you to prepare the
a half Or so over time.
particular time frame by
by which the sample
incorporated in the
language, or did you borrow some
from other things you had read or
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seen?
A. Some is borrowed.
Q. I'd like you to examine Exhibit 8, Mr.
Radutzky. The pages at the bottom are numbered with
Bates NOS. I, 2, and 3, but it appears to me that
these pages are not continuous and there £s a gap.
There are missing pages between Page NO. 1 and Page
NO. 2.
Can you tell me if that's correct?
A. 2 and 3 are continuous. 1 and 2 --
whatever page this is and 2 are not.
Q. So there are missing pages between the
page numbered here as I and the page numbered 2?
A. Correct.
-~
Q. This Page N~. 1 was not the first page of
the sample script as you wrote it, is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Looking at the first page of Exhibit 8,
there are handwritten words which say, "Sample
script by Radutzky."
DO you know who wrote that?
A. No.
Q. Do you recognize the
A. NO.
handwriting?
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Q. DO you recall if the Page NO. 1 is the end
of one of the segments as you had outlined them of
the perspective?
A. . To my recollection, the first page of
these three is not the end of a segment.
Q. Do you recall which segment Page No. 1 was
part of?
A. I believe it's No. I.
Q. Would that be the clout segment?
A. Yes.
Q, And the second segment would be the fire
segment?
A. Page 2 --
MR. KL~NK: The question is ~nclear.
BY MR. CLAYTONz
Q. Okay. I'm attempting ~ow to get an
understanding about segments of the perspectives.
A. Yes?
Q. The first perspective I'm referring to as
the first segment dealt with clout?
A. Is as to page whatever this is.
Q. AS to Page NO. 1 in front of you here.
And there is a second segment which dealt
with cigarette fires, is that correct?
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A. Co~rect.
Q. And there is a third segment which dealt
with cigarette advertising?
A. Correct.
Q. l'm just trying to place the pages that
are before you now in the different segments of the
broadcast.
Page 1 is in Segment 1 regarding clout,
and Pages 2 and 3 are in the third segment regarding
advertising, is that correct?
A. The way I envisioned it, they are; but
that's not quite the way they turned out.
Q. How did it turn OUt?
A. There are portions of Page 2
used in Segment No. 1. There is stuff
various segments of the
that were
used in
perspectives that occurred --
that are stated on these pages.
Q. Mr. Jacohson switched some of those things
around?
A. Correct.
Q. On Page No. 2 in Exhibit 8 before you, you
wrote, "Madison Avenue's best and brightest came
through for the tobacco industry like it never had
before."
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,i
Mr. KLENK: I'm sorry.
it on the page -- oh, I see.
BY THE WITNESS:
A. Cigarette
limits -- cigarette
What were you referring to there?
What page and
where is
552
advertising had been off
advertising on television had
become off limits to the cigarette industry. Santa
Claus and doctors proclaiming that Lucky Strikes are
easy on their throats didn't make it as an
advertising strategy during the 1980s, given the
fact that the health controversy had been as strong
as it was, as great as it was. Therefore, Madison
Avenue had itself a challenge in developing new ways
to advertise cigarettes.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. When you say "came through for the tobacco
industry," what does that mean?
MR. KLENK: Excuse me. Could you read the
prior question back to me, please?
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested.)
MR. KLENK: It's really the same question that
you asked before, but do you have anything you want
to add beyond that?
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It's the same question you just asked him.
MR. CLAYTON: I'm asking what he means by "came
through." Mow did Madison Avenue come through for
them?
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. If you feel you've answered the question
fully, you can tell me that.
A. I feel like I've answered the question.
Q. In the next paragraph you use the word
"hooked."
What did you mean "hooked"? What did
mean by "hooked"?
A. The product has been successful enough
bo~st millions of adherents.
Q. Were you meaning to refer to addiction
there in any way, biological or psychological
you
to
addiction?
A. Just the common phrase "hooked." I don't
know what else was attached to it.
Q. Well, as you used the common phrase "hooke(
did you mean it to include the concept of biological
or psychological addiction?
MR. KLENK: I'll object. You've asked the
question, and he j~st answered it.
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MR. CLAYTON: I want to know what he said. He
said he used the common meaning of the word "hooked,
and I want to know what his understanding of the
common meaning of the word "hooked" is as he used it
Did he understand it to include the
concept of biological or psychological addiction?
BY THE WITNESS:
A. The answer is only that millions of people
are regular cigarette smokers.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Later on down the page there are
references to stillstorel dissolve, and then two
stillstores aqain next to the paragraph, "It has
been done overtly by advertising in magazines and in
billboards, hundreds of thousands of billboards."
What visuals or graphics did you have in
mind to illustrate that?
A. Billboards.
Q • Did
A. No.
Q. And
you have any particular ones in mind?
then dissolve.
What does that mean down there, the last
one on the page?
A. It's a dissolve to the Merit cigarette van
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Q. On what's been marked as Page 3, there are
what appear to be handwritten marks near the bottom
Of the page on the right side.
DO you know whose marks those are?
A. They're mine.
Q. Can you decipher them?
MR. ELENK: Are you talking about the bottom or
the top, Lew?
MR. CLAYTON:
Bottom.
BY THE WITNESS:
A. I CaN't relate to
stated on that page, but my
what's down on this is the scoreboard
Field.
Q. On which there is
A. Yes, and on which
fonted.
O.
you verbatim what is
understanding is that
of Soldier
cigarette advertising?
some number will be
You testified previously that there are
approximately 15 pages Of this sample script which
are missing, is that correct?
MR. KLENK: Objection. The record will show
what he testified to before.
Let's get on with it.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
sac
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Q. You testified previously that you
discarded notes; and included among those notes and
other materials were 15 pages of Exhibit 8, is that
correct, Mr. Radutzky?
15
in
A. Approximately.
Q. Do you recall what was in those discarded
pages regarding Viceroy?
A. Involving the Viceroy perspective?
Q. Mentioning Viceroy or Brown & Williamson
any manner, shape, or form.
A. No, I don't recall.
Q. You have no specific or general
recollection on that point?
MR. KLENK: Objection[ YOU ~ust asked him, and
he answered the question.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. DO you
15 pages was not
by WBBM?
A. Please
recall if anything in those missing
included in the broadcast as aired
repeat the question.
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested.)
(WHEREUPON, there was a short
interruption.)
sae
• 681815219
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BY THE WITNESS:
A. I can't recall.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. DO you recall if Ted
at all in the missing portions
A. NO, I don~t recall.
Q. Do you recall if the
Exhibit 8 indicated that
been proposed to Brown &
Bates was mentioned
of Exhibit S?
a.
missing portions of
the Viceroy strategy had
Williamson in the year 1975?
I don't recall.
Q. DO you recall if the missing pages quoted
from any portion of the Federal Trade Commission
report?
portions were quoted?
A. Yes.
Q. DO you recall which
A. Yes.
Q. Which were they?
A. Kools.
Q. Anything else?
A. Fact.
Q. Anything else?
A. Viceroy starters.
Q. Anything else?
A. I don't believe so,
sae
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Q. What was quoted with respect to Viceroy
starters?
A. Some of the footnoted documents as well as
the portions on Pages 2-17 and 2-18.
Q. Do you recall if the sentence "B&W adopted
many of the ideas contained in this report in the
development of a Viceroy advertising campaign" was
quoted?
A. I believe it was.
DO you recall if the rationa&iza~ion and
repression language on Page 2-18 was quoted?
A. That may have been as well.
Q. Was anything on Page 2-19 quoted?
A. Perhaps as it related to the
rationalization and repression elements that were
discussed on Page 2-18.
Q. After you finished your second
conversation -- strike that.
After you finished your last conversation
as you recall it with Mr. Humber, you testified that
you put the finishing touches on the sample script
and you also gathered visuals.
Did you do anything else with respect to
the broadcast after your last conversation with Mr.
sae
. ,2 T,,2-ao87681815221
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Humber?
A, I presented Walter with the script, sample
script.
Q. HOW soon after the completion Of the
script did you give it to him?
A. Couple of days.
Did you give him anything with the script?
Yes.
What?
Ao The FTC report.
Q. Anything else?
A. Numerous slides, ads.
Q. Which slides, which ads?
A. Mostly everything that I've testified to
having shot.
Q. And the portions of the FTC report you
lave him had your handwritten notes indicating which
sections he should pay particular attention to, is
that correct?
A. Yes.
O. Did yo~ have any discussions with Mr.
Jacobson about the sample script or the other
materials you gave to him?
A. Mot at the time that I
gave them to him.
• I
sac
~2o, ~[tl,o~ • f312) 7824087
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1 BY MR. CLAYTON:
2 Q. Subsequently, did you have any
discussions with him?
A. Yes.
Q. You testified previously that the three
pages of Exhibit 8, which are before you, turned up
when you did a search for additional documents; is
that correct?
MR. KLENK: Objection. We have been over this
before.
MR. CLAYTON: Well, I am only asking this
question because I am getting into this area. I
want to ask him questions about it.
If you want, I won't put it as a question.
I'll put it as a statement.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. You testified previously that these three
pages turned up in a search that you performed. Now
I'll ask you. Where did you find these three pages?
MR. KLENK: I think he said that.
MR. CLAYTON: Well, I will represent to you
that I have gone over the transcript.
MR. KLENK: Fine. We will go on.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
pkg ~o,
~L~Ls • (3;2) 782-8Q87
561
i Q, Where did you find these three pages?
2 A. I don't recall exactly. It was either in
3 a filing cabinet or behind Walter's desk somewhere.
4 O. Where did you find the FTC report pages
5 which turned up?
6 A. Near a filing cabinet.
7 O. ~In which filing cabinet?
8 A. Near a filing cabinet in the Perspective
9 corner.
• i0 Q. Near a filing cabinet?
ii A. Yes.
12 Q. Sitting on the floor?
13 A. No.
14 Q. In a box?
15 A. In a box.
16 Q. What else was in the box?
17 A. The material that related to other
18 Perspectives that the unit had worked on over the
19 past year.
20 Q. Was there anything else regarding the
21 cigarette Perspectives that was in the box where the
22 FTC pages were?
23 A. Relating to the cigarette Perspectives?
24 Q- Correct.
pkg , 681815224
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• 24
A. NO.
Q. Were the pages of the FTC report as you
found them all in one group Or were they separate?
A. Some were separate.
Q. DO you recall which ones were separate?
A. ~o.
O- Were the three pages of the Exhibit 8
which you found in a group or were they separate?
A.
Q.
They were in a group.
Do you recall anything about the substance
of your notes on the FTC report pages other than to
what you have already testified in this deposition?
A. No.
Q. The answer is no?
YOU also testified
items turned up when you did
that several other
an additional search.
I will ask you where you found those items.
One item is Exhibit 9, which I show to you
now. Can you tell me where you found that?
MR. KLENK: Objection. I don't think that that
was his testimony concerning Exhibit NO. 9.
MR. CLAYTON: Okay. Let's go back and look at
his transcript. I am referring to pages 201 to 202
of the transcript of the first session of Mr.
pkg , 3,2;7,2,0,7 G81815225
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Radutzky's deposition.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. I am going to read a portion of that, Mr.
Radutzky, and ask you if you recall testifying to it.
"Q. I would like to know, Mr. Radutzky,
if these documents are documents
a search that you did.
"A. Okay. I believe this one
but I'm not certain.
"Q. The witness is indicating
9 . ,,
MR.
certain .
which turned up in
turned up,
Exhibit NO.
KLENK: That's correct. He said
MR. CLAYTON: Okay. I see your point.
MR. KLENK: You see my point?
MR. CLAYTON: I see your point. I'm
he wasn't
sorry.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. I hand you what has been marked as Exhibit
16, which you testified turned up in a search, and I
would ask you if you know where that turned up.
(WHEREUPON, the document was
tendered to the witness.)
MR. KLENK: What was the question?
MR. CLAYTON: I want to know where
this turned
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1
2
3
4
5"
up.
MR. KLENK: Okay.
BY ME. CLAYTON:
Q. If you recall.
A. I believe that it turned up around his
desk, in back of his desk.
Q. Walter, Walter's desk?
A. Walter's desk.
Q. Okay. I show you what has been marked as
Exhibit 18. Do you recall where that turned up?
And I will also show you Exhibit 19 at the same time
and ask the same question with respect to it.
(WHEREUPON, the documents were
tendered to the witness.)
BY THE WITNESS:
A. I believe that they turned up in the same
)lace.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Walter's desk?
A. Right."
Q. You testified that you read an article
which you referred to as a law memo. I would like
this to he marked as the next exhibit number.
(WHEREUPON, said document was marked
J' '681815227
pkg ~.~ga, ff[~i,~t* • (312) 782-80B7
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Radutzky Deposition Exhibit NO. 30,
for iden%ification, as of 7/10/84.)
(WHEREUPON, the document was
tendered to %he witness.)
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. I ask you to examine Exhibit 30 and tell
us whether that is the article which you saw which
informed you that this suit had been reinstated by
the Cou~t Of Appeals.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you discuss this article with anybody?
A. l don't recall. ~ may have.
Q. Did you keep a copy of it?
A. NO.
Q. Did anyone ever ask you not to destroy
documents pertaining to this case?
MR. KLENK: Objection. YOU asked that question
and he answered it.
MR. CLAYTON: I don't Delieve this question was
asked.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Did anyone ever ask you not to destroy
documents pertaining to this case?
A. NO, not that I recall.
566
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Q. Did you ever ask anyone whether it was all
right for you to dispose of your notes before you
did so?
A. No.
Was that disposal
A. Yes.
done totally on your own?
Q. Do you currently have in your possession
any notes or Other background material with respect
to any broadcasts which have already been aired?
A. Presently?
Q. Yes.
A. I may.
Q. DO you have a recollection on that one
or the other?
A. I haven't been involved in a research
reporting-type capacity in a very long time. So,
that's why my recollection of it would be fuzzy,
because I don't keep notes when I have no notes
take.
O. Was there any reason why you didn't
discard your
Perspectives at
was dismissed?
A. Yes.
notes pertaining to the cigarette
some time you heard before the
way
to
case.
(WoE/ ,
681815229
pkg ~a, (J~Ia~ta • (312) 782-8087
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Q. Why?
A. It was a good idea to hold on to them.
Q. Why?
A. For reference purposes.
Q. Reference purposes in connection with the
lawsuit; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Did you at any time refer to the notes
materials you had gathered for the cigarette
Perspectives in connection with any broadcast or
story you worked on?
A. No.
Q. DO you know if anyone
referred to those notes?
else at WBBM ever
in
or
A. TO which notes?
Q. The notes and materials that you gathered
connection with the cigarette Perspectives.
A. NO.
Q. Did you work on any other pisces involving
cigarettes for Mr. dacobson subsequent to the
cigarette Perspectives?
A. Not that I recall.
Q° When you discarded
with respect to
the notes and materials
the cigarette Perspectives, were
pkg ol:,,,.v,,...*e,,.,,,. . 681815230
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there any other materials
same time?
A. Probably.
Q. Do you recall
A. NO,
O.
discarded
which you discarded at the
what those materials were?
You previously testified that you
your notes two weeks after the case
dismissed. Is there any particular way that you
that two-week period in your recollection?
A. No, there isn't.
Q. You are generally familiar with the fact
that cases may be appealed to a higher court; is
that correct?
is
was
fix
A. Under limited circumstances, I am.
Q. What do you mean by limited circumstances?
A. My idea of an appeal, however naive it is,
that when a judgment is rendered one way or
another, guilty or innocent, that's when a case
appealed. It doesn't get appealed when it is
otherwise.
Q. Why do you say that view is naive?
A. Because I guess that's not true.
Q. Do you regard yourself as naive in
matters?
gets
legal
569
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A.
O.
what?
A.
TO some degree.
TO a great degree, to a small degree or
Q.
make any attempt to
been appealed?
A.
O.
you had
script.
you have
A.
0.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A. From
Frank Gardner.
Q.
A.
O.
A.
TO some degree.
Before you discarded your notes, did you
find out whether the case had
NO.
I. would like to go to a discussion which
with Mr. Jacobson regarding the sample
How soon after you gave him that script did
a discussion?
A few days.
Where was that discussion held?
In the Perspective corner.
Was anyone else present?
NO -- yes.
Who?
time to time it was Greg Caputo and
Anyone else?
No.
Why were they present?
I only remember on one
occasion
when they
570
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were, and that W~s when we were
the most tasteful way to use or
burn victims.
trying to figure out
not use pictures of
Q. And they participated only in that portion
of the discussion, is that what you recall?
A. Yes.
Q- " How many discussions did you have with Mr.
Jacobson regarding th~ sample sccipt?
A. Two or three.
Give us the substance of the first
conversation.
A. He wanted to know whether X, Y or Z image
was corresponding to X, Y a~d Z stated word on the
sample script.
Q. What do you mean by X, Y and Z? Are you
saying he questioned the correspondence between each
ima98 and each section of the script?
A. When he is developing the way he is going
to write it, he wants to know where the potential
visuals are that will accompany what it is he is
going to be saying.
Q. Which visuals
A. Billboards.
What else?
did he mention?
pkg ~&:~,~o, .,g~,~otA • (312}782-8087
571
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A. Ads, ash trays; every visual in the piece
he made a mention of in some regard.
Q. How long was your first conversation with
him?
A. 15 minutes, 20 minutes.
Q. The second?
A. I don~t know.
Q. Third?
A. 1 don't know.
Q- What else did he
conversation, in addition to these
regarding the match up between the
text?
A. He wanted to know how I had arrived at
say during the first
q~estions
visuals and the
certain numbers, where I got those numbers from.
Q. Which numbers?
A. Numbers relating to the amount of money
spent to promote cigarettes, tobacco by the
government, amount of money spent to warn people
about the health hazards. Almost everywhere in the
Perspective where you see monetary
he wanted to know where.
Q. What else was said?
A. That's pretty much all I
figures mentioned
remember.
572
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Q. Did he indicate that he had
report?
A. He didn't indicate it.
Q. Did he have the FTC report
he was in this discussion with you?
A. It was on his desk.
Q. Had he made any notes on it,
tell?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did he make any comments about the
report to yo~ during this discussion?
A. No.
• Q. Are you testifying now regarding the
substance Of all two or three of these
conversations?
A. NO.
Q. Or just as to the first?
A. First.
Q. Was anything said in this
read the
FTC
conversation about Viceroy or Brown
A. No.
Q* Was the pott wine, beer and sex
mentioned?
A. NO,
with him when
could you
FTC
first
& Williamson?
strategy
681815235
pkg C~'~,,~o, ~l~ol~ • (312) 782-8087
573
1 Q. Was the word Ted Bates mentioned?
2 A. No.
3 Q. DO you recall anything else about this
4 first conversa%ion~
5 A. NO.
6 Q- Now, you are unclear as to whether there
7 were one or two additional conversationsregarding correct?
8 the sample script with Mr. Jacobson; is chat
9 A. There were two at lezst.
10 Q. There were two. Okay. Why don't you give
ii us the substance of the second one.
12 A. I believe the substance of the second one
13 was overwhelmed by some technical considerations
14 more so tha~ a~ything else ah that p~rti~ula~'ti~eo
15 It was how he was going to match his script to
16 various pieces of video.
17 Q. Well, what was said in the second
18 conversation other than these technical matters?
19 A. He talked about the Bureau of Standards.
20 He wanted to see the letter. Be wanted to make sure
21 that th9 letter was valid. He wanted to know --
22 Q. What letter?
23 A. The letter from the National Bureau of
24 Standard~, a document fro~ the National Bureau of
574
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Standards that
cigarettes to
conducted.
Q. What
second conversation?
indicates the propensity of certain
self-extinguish, tests that were
A,
basically
O.
Because we devoted
to the Perspective
was said about advertising in the
A. I don't believe anything.
Q. What about Viceroy ?
A. I don't believe there was anything about
Viceroy or advertising at the second conversation.
Q. The word Brown & Williamson?
A. NO.
Q. The word Ted Bates?
A. NO.
Q. Let's go to ~he third conversation. What
was the substance of that?
A. Well, basically the cigarette advertising
Perspective.
Q. That was the basic subject of the third?
A. Yes.
Q* Why did that get its whole own
conversation, any particular reason?
each conversation
that was at hand.
Are you saying the first conversation was
pkg ~,~e,,~, J~[[~,*o~ • (3;2)782-8087
575
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with respect to clout, the second was the fires and
the third was the advertising7
A. Basically; a little overlap here and there
Q. Beyond the meeting that you testified you
attended with Lilly Eide and others, did you ever
play any role with respect to the advertising or
promotion of the cigarette Perspectives?
A. Other than that meeting?
Q° Yes.
A. No.
Q. Did you ever
anyone with respect to
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall those ads?
review any ads produced by
the Perspectives?
interrogatory
an exhibit?
Are these the
answers which we
ads that were in the
have marked today as
A. Correct.
Q. Did you make any comments on those ads?
A. I don't recall. I checked them for
accuracy.
Q. You found them to be accurate?
A. Correct.
Q. Did you ever discuss with anyone why there
was no newspaper advertisement prepared for the
576
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1
2
3
4
5
third Perspective?
A. No.
O.
no such
A.
Did you have any understanding as to why
advertisement was prepared?
NO.
Q. Going back to your third conversation with
Mr. dacobsDn regarding the sample script, could you
give us the substance of that conversation?
A. We discussed the visuals that were going
beside various elements.
Q. How long a separation in time was there
between the first, second and third conversations?
A. I'm not certain. I think it was a day.
Q. Did Mr. Jacobson have drafts prepared of
various sections of the Perspective when he
discussed each one with you?
A. In the process of.
Q. Did you see those drafts when you were in
this discussion?
A, NO.
Q. Do you normally see his drafts before he
goes on the air with a Perspective?
A. Yes. I saw them when they were completed,
his drafts when they were completed.
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They weren't
conferences were held,
A. NO.
O. In addition to the
the visuals with sections of
A. Excuse me?
Q. In addition to the
the visuals with sections of
c0nversation~ what was said?
completed when these
it's your understanding?
discussions matching
the text --
discussions matching
the fext in this third
A. I don't recall. Much of it was just is
this the graphic that we want to ~se here? We talk
about sports, like we'd chose to keep some,
eliminate some, we had the Chicago Sting. we had
Virginia S~ims.
So we decided -- he decided this is what
we have to choose from. Okay, let's do Rudd Pyles.
It was en elimination and inclusion.
Q. How long did this conversation last, do
577
up
you recall? Is your recollection refreshed now by
some of your testimony about it?
A. 20 minutes or so, 15 minutes. I don't
know. Itis hard to say, because while there was one
substantive conversation, there were other questions
a~d a~swers that would come up.
up
pkg . 3s J .eoar 681815240
578
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Q. Were you going through your
during this conversation?
A. No.
Q. Were Cool and Fact, one or
both discussed in this third conversation?
A,
Q.
A.
include
sample script
the other or
YeS,
What was said about Cool?
asked him why he wasn't planning to
it.
O. How did you know that he wasn't planning
to include it?
A. Because he had told me what elements he
was planning to use,
Q. What did he tell you?
A. Well, he was going to use the -- from the
report itself, he was going to use the viceroy
strategy.
Q. And he said that would be the only thing
that he would use in this portion of the Perspective
from the FTC report?
A, Well, at that point in the conversation,
yes. I mean, I can't synthesize for you in one
moment several conversations that would occur over a
period of time in one day. You are asking me what
579
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followed this and what followed that. That*s not
the way the conversation occurs.
Q. ~'m not going to limit th~ questions then,
except if I indicate to the contraryt to exactly
what followed when.
Did you get an understanding from Mr.
Jacobson during this third conversation regarding
the advertising Perspective as to why he chose not
to include the Cool matter in the broadcast?
MR. KLENK: Objection. Understanding is
irrelevant. He can testify to what Jacobson told
him Or might have told him or didn't tell him.
MR. CLAYTON: I think his understanding is
relevant. I'll first ask him what Jacobson said,
but then I want to know if he has an understanding.
I think it's relevant; and, secondlyr I
think it also leads to relevant evidence, because
often when be vocalizes his understanding, it helps
him to focus on what that und~rs%anding was based on.
BY ~R. CLAYTOn:
Q. So I'll first ask yo~: What was said by
you and said by Mr. Jacobson on the question of the
noninclusion of Cool?
A. I asked him why he wasn't including it,
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and I don't believe I got an answer.
Q. Were you disappointed that he hadn't
included it?
A. I wouldn't refer to it as disappointment.
I though% it was a worthy element to include.
Q. Did you ever receive any more information
as to why he didn't include Cool in the broadcast?
A. No.
Q. What about Fact, was that discussed at all
in this third conversation?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened there?
A. I asked him why he wasn't
either. And at that point he said,
including that,
you know, I've
got so much material,and so many elements regarding
advertising, clout, cigarettes, I've got to draw the
line on some of these things, was basically the
conclusion I got.
Q. Did he indicate in any way why he thought
the Viceroy statements ought to be included instead
of the Cool or Fact statements?
A. NO.
Q. Did you reach any understanding
he had made that decision?
as to why
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A. No.
Q. Now, what was said regarding Viceroy in
this conversation?
A. We had -- that we had cut out, as I had
testified earlier, we had cut out the Viceroy logo.
Q. Cut OUt, meaning you had taken an ad and
scissored out a portion of it?
A. Correct. And he had stated that he wanted
~o know if we had the ads that were mentioned in the
strategy, and I said I asked the company for them
and they didn't send them to me. And I asked for
the documents s~pporting those ads and that strategy,
and they didn't send them to me.
Q. Did you say anything else on the question
of the Viceroy ~ds?
A. NO, not that I recall.
Did he say anything else on the question
of the Viceroy ads?
A. Well, he said that we will use a Viceroy
communicate -- to visualize the fact that
ciga:ettes are involved in this particular
logo to
Viceroy
citation by the government.
Are those his words
A, NO. Not --
as you recall them?
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Q. That's your paraphrase?
A. That's my paraphrase.
Q. Did he m~ke any specific
reference to the
~ot, wine, beer and sex strategy?
A. Not other than what he wrote.
Q. Was he looking at a draft of the
Perspective as he was talking to you?
A. He was looking at the FTC report,
something that was in his typewriter. I don't
recall all the things he was looking at at the time.
Q. Well, when you said he didn't maWe any
reference other than what he wrote, what do you mean
by other than what he wrote? Where did he write it?
A. On his typewriter.
Q. SQ he had a piece of paper in his
typewriter, which was before you during this
conversation,which had a mention of the pot, wine
beer and sex strategy?
A. And he had also typed up a list of fonts
that included some of the strategy that he would
hand over to me for me to ship over to the people
who enter those things into computers.
Q. Do you recall anything else that was said
about Viceroy or Brown & Wiiliamson during this
pkg • rs,2 zs2-eo87 681815245
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conversation?
A. I asked him why he didn't mention the fact
that the government says they adopted the strategy.
MR. CLAYTON: Could you read the last answer
back.
(WHERRUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested.)
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. And what did he say in response?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Do you recall anything else regarding
Brown & Williamson or Viceroy that was said in these
conversations?
A. I asked him why he didn't mention the fact
that the company maintains that the advertising
agency was dismissed and that the company never
adopted the strategy.
Q. What did he say to that?
A. He said he didn't plan to include the
names of ad agencies, the names of cigarette
companies. He was just concerned with the names of
products, and that he did mention the fact that the
cigarette industry claims -- in fact, swears up and
down it doesn't sell cigarettes to children.
pkg , 312JTa2-so 7 681815246
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Q. Was there anything else that you
questioned him about with respect to material that
was not included in his draft of the Perspective?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Now, why did you mention the noninclusion
of the government saying that they had adopted the
strategy?
MR. KLENK: I'm sorry. I didn't hear that.
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested.)
(WHEREUPON, Mr. Thomas Morsch
left the deposition proceedings.)
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Let me rephrase the question.
You testified that you asked Mr. Jacobson
why he did not include a statement that the
government had said that Brown
adopted the strategy. Why did
that question?
A. Just to make sure
company maintained.
Q. Did you
with your role as
broadcast was not
& Williamson had
you ask Mr. Jacobson
that he knew what the
ask that question in connection
a journalist making sure that the
misleading and complied with CBS
pkg o c312 Te2-Bos7 G81 15247
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standards?
A. In the context of me being his researcher
who is supplying him with as much and more
information than he needs.
Q. And also in the context of a researcher
whose concern is that the broadcast be accurate?
A. With my concern primarily to give him all
the information I have as his researcher and to
allow him to make the determinations on what is
included in a Perspective and what isn't.
Q. In addition to this primary concern, was
it also because of your concern that the broadcast
be accurate?
A. I'm always concerned about accuracy~ sure.
Always.
Q. When you asked him why he didn't say that
the company had said that they had never adopted
this strategy, did you have similar concerns in mind?
A. Please repeat the question.
Q. I'll rephrase it.
When you asked Mr. dacobson why he didn't
include a statement that the company had said that
they had not adopted the strategy, did you have the
same concerns in mind; meaning the concerns that he
p~g e~o, ~a~, , :~,2J 7s~0a7 G S 1815 2 4 8
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1
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had all the facts and that the broadcast be accurate?
A. That he have all the facts.
Q, Were you --
A. " I am always concerned about accuracy,
I'm
not concerned about any context. I'm always
concerned about accuracy in all contexts.
Well, was your concern over accuracy one
of the reasons why you raised these questions with
him?
MR. KLENK: I would object. You have asked him
the questions. He has answered them.
MR. CLAYTON: He is not answering them. He is
just sliding away from them.
THE WITNESS: I'm not
MR. CLAYTON: I think
has a yes or no answer.
BY MR, CLAYTON:
slidin~ away from them.
that's a question that
Q. Was your concern over accuracy one of the
concerns that motivated you to ask that question?
A. I'm always motivated by accuracy. In that
I was needing to inform him of
particular instance,
all the things that I had compiled for him.
Q. Why did you want to make sure that he knew
of all the things that you had compiled for him?
pkg c;,.,.. • 681815249
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A. SO that he would be informed.
Q. And was accuracy one of the reasons why
you wanted to make sure?
A. I j~st said accuracy is always a co~cer~.
Q° Fine. Well then the answer is yes, isn't
it, that accuracy was one of the concerns which
motivated you to ask the question?
A. The concern at the time was to give him
all the information that I had.
Q. Well, if accuracy is one Of your concerns
at all times, well then it was one of your concerns?
A. It's a concern of mine all the time.
Q. So it was a concern at this point, wasn't
it?
A. It's a concern of mine all the time.
Q. And was it also a concern when you
asked
him why he did not include the statement that
the
company had dismissed the advertising agency which
recommended the strategy?
A. It was for the purposes of informing him
of what I had so that he can make his own
determinations.
Q. And again was accuracy one
why you had brought that up?
of the reasons
,kg aa,..,. • 3, J,82-8o 7 G81815250
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A. It was for the purpose of informing him;
period. Accuracy is always an issue. But I brought
it up to him for the purpose Of informing him of all
the information that I had. That's my job.
Q. Did he say anything else in response to
your questions as to why these three matters had not
been inclgded in his draft Of the broadcast, Other
than to what you have already testified?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. DO you recall anything else about the
substance of that third conversation with Mr.
Jacobson regarding the cigarette Perspective --
advertising Perspective?
A. No.
Q. NO is the answer?
At the time when you had these
conversations with Mr. Jacobson, had you completed
your preparations and research for the Perspectives?
A. Yes.
Q. Therefore, you did nothing else in
connection with preparation Or research after these
conversations; is that correct?
A. No.
Q. What did you do?
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A. Pulling together lots of the visual
elements for -- into the proper arena --
Q- Sequence?
A. -- and sequence for broadcast.
Q. But you didn't gather in the sense that
you didn't go out and get more, you just selected
and organized the ones you had already gathered, is
that fair?
A. That's correct.
Q. Anything else that you did apart from
organizing the" materials which you had already
gathered?
A.
Q.
Jacobson,
NO, not that I recall.
After these three conversations with Mr.
did you have any further conversations
with him regarding the Perspectives before they were
aired?
A. I double-checked when he came back into
the studio to do the l0 o'clock news that his script
jived with the instruction sheets for the script.
Q. Well, after you had these three
conversations, did you see final scripts that he had
prepared for the broadcast?
A. Yes*
pkg o 68181525
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I don't believe so.
Did you discuss your third conversation
Jacobson in this series with anybody?
NO.
Q. How long after the conversations did it
take for you to get the f£nal scripts?
A. Several -- a couple of hours after each
conversation.
Q. Was it your understanding that he was
working on these final scripts during the course
these conversations or had begun work before the
conversations began?
A. Both.
Q. He had begun work previously and in
addition he was --
A. Well, he had begun reading.
Q. Had he begun drafting?
A.
Q.
with Mr.
A.
Q. When you saw the final scripts for the
Perspectives, did you see all three scripts at once
or did you see one a~d then another and then a third?
of
A. One and another and then the third.
Q. What did you do when you saw each of them?
A. I brought them in for approval.
Q. Well, did you first review them yourself?
pk g ~,~o, ~,=,, , ~3~2~ 7e2-eoe~ G S 1815 2 5 3
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A, Yes.
Q. What was the
A. Reviewing it
weren't many typos in
called for corresponded to
in order. Reading it over
all made sense.
Q. Any Other purpose?
A. No.
Q. You said brought them in
Who did you bring them in to?
A.
brought
perused
0.
A.
offices
Q.
A.
Q. Do you know
approvals is?
A. They have final
Perspectives.
Q. How long before
purpose of your review?
to make sure that there
it, that the graphics that he
the graphics that existed
once again to see that it
for approval.
it to Mr. Gardner. I
same copy was
copy up to the
I brought a copy of
a copy in for Mr. -- well, the
by Mr. Gardner and Mr. Caputo.
Anyone else?
Then I brought a separate
of Peter Lund.
Is this standard procedure?
Yes.
what the purpose of their
approval over Walter's
the broadcast was the
.0,,, 681815254
pkg ~o, J[[I=oll • f312) 782-8087
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script brought to them for approval?
A. Four and a half hours, I'd say.
Q. Did you discuss the script with them when
you brought it in for approval?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they see all three scripts at once?
A. No.
Did you make three different trips?
Yes.
What was discussed between you and Mr.
Q.
A.
Q.
Gardner regarding the cigarette advertising
Perspective script?
A. He just asked me if I was -- if
accurate, and Greg Caputo checke~ it over
production elements.
it was
for the
Q. Did Mr. Gardner just say, "Is it accurate?"
Or did he speak to you in any more detail about the
particular facts or statements in the script?
A. He didn't go into much detail at all.
Q. Well, did he mention any segment of the
script in particular?
A. No.
Q. What about Mr. Caputo?
A. No.
pkg • 681815255
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Q. What about Mr. Lund? Do you recall
anything about your discussion with Mr. Lund?
A. I didn't have a discussion with Mr. Lund.
Q. You merely left it at his office?
A. Yes.
Q. DO you know if any of these three people
made comments on the script?
A. They would not make comments on the script
Q. Why would they not make comments?
A. If they had comments to make, they would
make them verbally or on another sheet of paper.
Q. Well, I meant comments about the script
rather than writing comments on the script.
A. I don't recall.
You don't recall whether any of the three
of them made any comments about the script?
A. Among themselves. I mean, I already
testified to what they told me. I don't know what
they said among themselves.
Q. Well, other than what you testified they
told you, do you know Of any other comments which
any Of the three of them made regarding the scripts?
A. They said it looked real good; looked like
a real good job.
pkg o r ,2J782,0,7 G8181525G
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Anything else?
A. No.
Q. DO you know if
they ever discussed
script directly with Mr. Jacobson?
A. I don't know.
Q. Is it true that in preparation for the
cigarette Perspectives, you looked at countless
examples of cigarette advertising?
A, Yes.
Q. Did you ever consider doing a~y on-camera
with the cigarette
interviews in connection
Perspectives?
A. No.
Q, Well, you did
outline which indicated
interview with the Tobacco
correct?
A, Yes.
the
at one point prepare an
that there would be zn
Institute, isn't that
Q* At that point, were
an on-camera interview of the
respect to the Perspectives?
A. I was considering it.
Q, Did you consider any other
interviews with respect
you considering doing
Tobacco Institute with
on-camera
to the Perspectives?
pkg * r , 782- oB, 681S15257
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A. Well, yes.
Q- Of?
A. Senator Cranston,
Q. Anyone else?
A. Burn victims.
Q. Anyone else?
some tobacco legislators.
A. NO. I don't recall.
Q. Did you ever make any attempt to contact
Ted Bates Advertising Agency to comment on the FTC
report?
A. No.
Did you ever make any attempt to get in
touch with Ted Bates for any reason at all in
connection with the cigarette Perspectives?
A. NO.
Q. Any particular reason why you never called
Bates?
A. Bates worked for Brown & Williamson.
Brown & Williamson paid Ted Bates for its
information.
Q. And so?
A. And so Brown & Williamson paid for the
strategy, I felt there was no reason to talk to Ted
Bates.
pkg * , J s2sos 681815258
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Q. Even though Ted Bates had been terminated
by Brown & Williamson?
A. Correct.
Q. You testified previously that.you believed
that Mr. Humber was lying to you when he told you
that Brown & Williamson had not adopted the Viceroy
strategy. Did you believe that Ted Bates would lie
to you with respect to this strategy as well?
ME. WLENE: Objection.
BY TEE WITNESS:
A. I never talked to him.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. At the time, did you believe that if you
had called up Ted Bates, they would have lied to you
also?
MR. KLENK: Objection. You asked him a
question. He just gave you an answer before,
MR. CLAYTON: Read back the question and the
answer.
(WHEREOPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested.)
MR. CLAYTON: You are objecting as to the
or you are directing him not to answer?
MR. KLENK: You can answer it if you can.
fo~m
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BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. You may answer the question, if you can.
A. I didn't think about it one way or another
whether they would lie or wouldn't lie.
and
Q. DO you ever attempt to contact marketing
research counselors?
A. NO.
Q. Why not?
A. I didn't think it was relevant.
Q. Well, weren't they the people who were
named in the FTC report as authoring some of the
documents that the FTC quoted?
MR. KLENK: I will object. The report speaks
for itself. You asked him why he didn't-call~
He
gave you an answer.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Why didn't you think it was relevant?
A. I was merely quoting from the government
report.
Q. Have you completed your answer now?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you watch the actual broadcast of the
Perspective when it was aired?
A. Yes.
L
pkg
C~¢¢~a, ..~[[l,'~La • (312) 782~087
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O. Each of the three portions?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you aware of any comments
which were
made by anybody about the Perspectives?
MR. KLEWK~ At any time?
MR. CLAYTON: Yes, at any time, except comments
made by Brown & Williamson within the context of
this lawsuit.
BY THE WITNESS:
A. We have get a lot of calls from people who
said they were viewers.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Any other comments you remember?
A. And from people around ~he news room who
thought the Perspectives were very good, informative.
Q. Did you ever learn that WSBM was
considering airing a program with comments upon the
cigarette Perspectives?
A. I don't know what they were considering.
I know that an offer was made by our company.
Q. During previous sessions of your
deposition we referred, I believe, to a March
broadcast which was aired by WBBM in March 1982.
With your permission, I'd like to adopt that
pkg • c ,2 Ts .8os 6S1815261
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terminology again.
A. Okay.
(WHEREUPON, a recess was had.}
BY M~, CLAYTON:
Q. When did you first recall learning that
WBBM was considering airing the March broadcast?
A. I don't know when.
Q. Can you approximate how 10ng after the
airing of the cigarette Perspective?
I don't know when. It just has to De
between November and March, I really
A.
sometime
know.
Q. What did you first learn about the
~ossibility of airing the March broadcast?
A. That the cigarette industry had called
Ip -- someone from the Tobacco Institute had called
the station and said that the broadcasts were
possibly a fairness violation; Tim O~Donnell told me
this. And then he bold m8 that we offered them
Q, He told you all this in the same
conversation?
A. Yes,
Q. What is the Newsmakers program?
don't
q#o[[,, J,,,.
6818152G2
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A. It's a half hour weekly program.
Q. Who appears on the program?
A. Newsmakers.
Q. Is there a moderator or --
A. Walter Jacobson is generally the moderator.
Q. Did Mr. O'Donnell say what the Tobacco
Institute's reaction to this offer was?
Q,
A.
Q. Did yOU ever see any correspondence
between the Tobacco Institute and WBBM?
A. No.
Q. Was this discussion with Mr. O'Donnell
first discussion which you recall regarding the
possibility of a March broadcast or a response by
the Tobacco Institute?
A. It wasn't good enough.
Q. What else was said in this conversation?
A. Nothing.
Did you ever see --
That I recall.
the
A, Yes.
Q. What was the next time you heard or read
anything regarding the possibility of a response?
A. When I was told that Phll Walters, our
reporter, was going to go out to Washington, D.C. to
pkg C~,=,2o, O/z'~,.~, • f3~2)782-8o87
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interview the Tobacco Institute, and that we were
going to construct something called the tobacco
reply.
Q. Who c~lled it a tobacco reply?
A, I don't know. I think that was the slug
that the story was given the night it ran or the
nights it ran.
Q. Who gave you this information?
A. caputo told me.
Q. Did he say anything else at this point?
A. He says that we will work on it together.
You'd be the assigned news writer to it because you
were involved in the series and you sort of knew
what was going on.
Q. Had you ever worked with Mr. Caputo on
story before?
A. The Perspectives.
Q. Well, his role with respect to the
Perspectives is merely approving them after Mr.
J~cobson
A.
Q,
caputo directly
A. Well,
finalizes them, isn't that correct?
Yes, pretty much,
SO, h~d you ever worked directly with
on a story before?
he helped me on the cigarette
Mr.
pkg d~o, J[[t,~ij • (312)7@2-808z
602
i
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stories. He helped me in the production of %hem,
because at that point I was very weak in production~
Q. Had you ever worked on the writing of a
broadcast script with Mr. Caputo before?
A. No.
Q. DO you know why Mr. Caputo was involved in
production of the March broadcast?
A. No.
What happened next?
WITNESS: Can we go off the record for a
the
Q,
THE
second?
MR.
BY THE
CLAYTON: Sure.
(WHEREUPON, discussion
off the record.)
WITNESS:
was had
A. The next thing I know, the tape arrived in
the house from Washington, D.C.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. In the house at WBBM in Chicago?
A. WBBM.
Q. Had you talked with Mr. Walters or with
anyone else in connection with his going out to
Washington?
A. No.
-O"'B- 81815 2 6.5
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Q. DO you know who he interviewed in
Washington?
A. He interviewed Walker Merryman.
~. The tape that you saw was the tspe of
complete interview with Walker Merryman?
A, Correct.
Q. DO you know if Mr, Walters spoke with
the
anyone else in Washington?
A. I believe he spoke with someone from Ralph
Nadar's group.
Q. Do you know who that person was?
A, No.
What was the purpose of that conversation,
if you know?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you ever discuss
purpose of the Nadar interview?
A. No.
0. Did you discuss with Mr.
interviews with Mr. Jacobso~ at all?
~. GO.
Q. How did you get abold of
A. Caputo gave it to me and
into an editing room to scrsen it,
with anyone the
Walters his
the tape?
walked it and me
and we screened
¢Wo£fi, ~A%:--,~,9 ~ ,:~4~,~u~. J~,. 6 8 18 15 2 6 6
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it together.
Q. Were there comments made about it as it
was being s~reened?
A. NO.
Q. Anyone else in the roGm with you?
A. The tape editor.
Q. What happened next?
A. I had my time code notes,
set back in his office, and decided what
going to do with it.
Q. What are time code notes?
A. There is a digital readout on
an editing machine that tells you where
Caputo had his
we were
the top of
you are in
the tape. If you are looking for-this person, this
)articular piece of sound, you can find it at 013g on
the tape.
Q. What happened then? You took the time
code notes and you used them in connection with
doing a draft of the story?
A* Correct.
Q. Did you have another discussion with
Caputo or anyone else before yo~ started work on
that draft?
A. We worked on it together in his office.
pkg d~e.~., ~.o~J @ (312) 782-8087
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0- And were you discussing what ought to go
into that draft as you worked on it?
A. Correct.
Q. And what were those discussions?
A. The discussions were -- my recollection of
the discussions is not real clear.
Q. Well, to the extent you do recall.
A. I recall choosing pieces of sound of the
interview as.we determined them to be the Tobacco
Institute's greatest objections.
Q. Did you discuss at all with Mr. Caputo or
with anyone else what the purpose of this broadcast
was going to be?
A. I may have made a few inquiries in that
regard, but I don't really
it was, other than a reply
Institute.
know what the purpose of
from the Tobacco
Q. Well, did anyone ever tell you why the
station had chosen to give the Tobacco Institute
broadcast?
A. No, it did not.
Q, What did you learn in the course of your
inquiries about the purpose of the broadcast?
A. It was to give the cigarette industry an
the
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opportunity to respond to the issues raised in our
Perspective, as well as the issues that confront
them as they go about their business.
Q. With whom did you make these inquiries?
A. Caputo and 0'Donnell.
Q. DO you know if Mr. Jacobson played any
part in the production of the March broadcast?
A. To my recollection, he played no part at
all.
Q. Do you know if a decision was made to
exclude him from a role in the broadcast?
A. I don~t know.
Q. DO you know of any particular reason why
he did not play a role in the broadcast?
A. NQ.
Q. Going back to your discussion with Mr.
Csputo when you were reviewing Mr. Walters' tape --
strike that.
Going back to the discussion which you had
with Mr. Caputo as you were working on the draft of
the broadcast, after you had viewed the tape, what
do you recall about the substance of that discussion?
A. As we reviewed the tape?
Q. No. The discussion which you had after
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the review of the tape in which the two of you were
working on the draft of the broadcast.
A. We both agreed upon some of the more
important points that were being raised by the
Tobacco Institute; and by important, what we
perceived they perceived to be important.
Q. DO you recall what points were raised
Mr. Walters that you chose not to include in the
March broadcast?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Do you recall
Viceroy or Brown & Williamson in his
the Tobacco Institute?
A. I don't recall.
Q. DO you recall if
that Brown & Williamson be
with the March broadcast?
A. I don't recall.
Q* Did anyone ever
a lawsuit at this point?
A. No, not that I recall.
Q. DO you know how long Mr.
interview with Mr. Merryman
A. I don't.
by
if Mr. Walters mentioned
interview with
anyone ever suggested
contacted in connection
discuss the possibility of
Walters'
was, approximately?
pkg ~,=-~o, .~,~,,, . e3,2J,a2-8o~6 8 1 8 1 5 2 7 0
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Q. Do you recall anything else about the
substance of this conversation with Mr. Caputo?
A. NO.
O. What happened next?
A. Proceeded to write it.
Q. Did you write it alone or with him?
A. "I wrote it with him.
Q. A~d were there any subsequent
discussions while you were writing it, any other
discussions while you were writing it?
A. There were discussions on how it would be
structured.
What were those discussions?
A. What to include and what not to.
Q. Do you recall anything specific about
those discussions?
A. Only that what ended up on the air was
result of OUr discussions.
Q. Who chose the portions of the dacobson
connection
the
Perspective which were rebroadcast in
with the March broadcast?
A. Caputo and myself.
Q. How did you go about making that choice?
A. If you let me loQk at a transcript of that
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broadcast, if you have one, I can show you.
MR. CLAYTON: Let's go off the record.
(WHEREUPON, discussion was had
off the record.)
MR. CLAYTON: I'd like to have this marked as
the next exhibit. This is a what appears to be a
transcript of the March broadcast which Mr. Klenk
has kindly provided us for use to refresh the
witness' recollection as to the content of that
broadcast. And I'd like it to be marked as Exhibit
31.
(WHEREUPON, said document was marked
Radutzky Deposition Exhibit No. 31,
for identification, as of 7/i0/84. )
(WHEREUPON, the document was
tendered to the witness.)
)Y MR. CLAYTON:
Q. I hand you, Mr. Hadutzky, what has been
marked as Exhibit 31. I'd like you to just examine
Exhibit 31 and tell us if that refreshes your
recollec~ion as to the conte~t Of the March
broadcast.
A. Wasn't there more than one of them,
it the same one?
or was
pkg , t3,2 zs2-aosr 681815272
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610
MR. KLENK: There is more than one of them.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q- This is the content of the third March
broadcast.
A. Okay.
Q. I believe. I think that this is
sufficien£.
A. Okay.
Q. The question is whether this refreshes
your recollection as to the content of the third of
the March broadcasts.
A. Right.
Q. And with your recollection refreshed, can
you tell us how you and Mr. Capuso went about
choosing the section of the Jacobson broadcast which
appeared in that third broadcast?
A. TO my recollection, the point that Walker
Merryman took greatest issue with or the point that
he was most interested in making was the point about
advertising not making a smoker Out of a nonsmoker.
And I will read his remark there. "It
encourages people who already smoke to switch brand
loyalty or to maintain their brand loyalty, and
there are any number of academic studies on this
pkg eJ: o. . ¢3,2JT,a.8os 881815273
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question, not one of which, by the way, says that
cigarette advertising makes kids into smokers or
even makes adults into smokers. It was aimed at the
person who is already the smoke~."
NOW, we made the determination that that
was an important point that he wanted to make. In
putting this in the context of our story for
broadcast, we thought it was important to place his
comments in some kind of context that the viewer
' could relate to, a viewer could identify with, so
that there was some kind of, as I say, context for
understanding where these remarks were coming from.
SO, we chose to juxtapose that against the
points that Walter made in the segment that precedes
the sound from Walker Merryman. And that's the way
we went about doing the entire broadcast.
The reason for what we did is so that they
would be properly juxtaposed, that they would match
in some kind of news context.
Q. Did you have any discussion with Mr.
Caputo as to why this particular portion of the
Jacobson broadcast matched Mr. Merryman' s statements?
A. Mr. Merryman talks about advertising
having never made a smoker of a nonsmoker, that it
gSl
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encourages people of who already smoke to switch
brand loyalty Or to maintain their loyalty.
It is not -- or there are studies that
suggest it is not -- that cigarette advertising does
not make kids into smokers Or even make adults into
smokers, that seemed to me and to Caputo to be in
line with what we selected from the Jacobson
Perspective.
Q. DO you know if the Merryman interview was
ever aired on WBBM without an accompanying, portion
of the Jacobson Perspective?
A. I don't know. I doubt it.
Q. Do you remember anything else with respect
to this session with Mr. Caputo?
A. No.
Q. Was the preparation of the March broadcast
completed at the end of this session, or was there
additional work on it?
A. It was completed.
Q. How soon after this session did it go on
the air?
A. I don't recall.
Q* Did you do any other work in connection
with the March broadcast?
pkg d.~&=.=3o, ~I,m~* • (3123782-8087
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A. NO.
Q. Pid you ever hear any comments
ever made on the March broadcast?
A. NO.
Q. By the way, did you make
that anyone
March broadcast before it was put on
A. I'm not certain.
Q. Did you have any discussions
about the script before it went on the
final script?
A. No,
Have you ever heard of Eric
Associates?
any comments
about the cigarette advertising Perspective to
anyone after it was broadcast?
A. NO.
Q. Did you hear any complaints about it in
the news room?
A, NO.
O. Did you hear any complaints about the
March broadcast?
A. NO.
Q. DO you know if anyone in addition to
rourself and Mr. Caputo reviewed the script for the
the air?
with anyone
air, the
Mardar &
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A. NO.
Have you ever heard
A. No.
Do you know whether
public opinion polling
on behalf of WHBM?
A. Yes.
Q. And has such work
or on behalf of WBBM?
of Audience Research?
any market research or
has ever been conducted by or
ever been performed by
A. Isn't that the same q~estion?
Q. Well, I asked you whether you knew whether,
and you said yes, you did know whether. And now I'm
asking whether the
such work has been
A. Yes.
answer to your question is yes,
performed.
Q. Your answer is yes, such work has been
)erformed; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. DO you know whether Mr. Jacobson is the
subject of any of this work?
A. I don't know.
Q. Have you ever discussed market research or
bublio opinion polling with Mr. Jacobson?
A. NO.
w U,,o.
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Q.
public
A.
O-
A.
O-
A.
0.
~&ve
opinion
you ever discussed market research or
polling with anybody a~ WBBM?
Ygs.
With who?
My colleagues.
HOw often have you discussed it?
From time to time.
in there.
able to find'out
And are the results of market research
public opinion polling part of the substance of
those discussions?
A. In a fashion.
Q. In what fashion?
A. Wanting to know what is
Q. A~d what have you been
about what is in there?
all.
A,
O.
A*
Q°
A.
Q.
subjects
kolling
A.
Nothing much at
Why not?
I don't know.
Is it kept confidential by WBBM?
I don't know.
or
What is your understanding as to what the
of this market research and public opinion
are?
Why people watch us and who it is that
pkg , r3,2;7,2,0,7 181527S
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watches us.
Q. In your understanding, does any of this
polling or research concern what kinds of news
stories people are interested in watching?
MR. KLENK: I'm going to object. This is all
irrelevant. The Court's order says that you can't
inquire into these kind of matters.
Are you going to go along with these
questions?
MR. CLAYTON: Not very long.
MR. KLENK: Would you read the question back,
please.
MR.
can.
THE
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter a~ requested.)
KLENK: You can answer the question if you
WITNESS: Could you reread it again.
(WHEREUPON, the record was read
by the reporter as requested.)
SY THE WITNESS:
A. I don't know.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Have you ever
whether WBBM
discussed with anyone
has ever used market research or
617
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)olling in connection with its news broadcasts?
A. I have never asked anybody.
Q. Hav~ you ever discussed that topic with
anybody?
A. . NO.
Q. Have you ever heard of the Golden Leaf
broadcast?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is the Golden Leaf?
It was a documentary I believe that was
done by CBS News about the tobacco industry.
Q. Did you ever have any conversations with
anyone at CBS News who worked on the Golden Leaf?
A. Yes.
Q. With whom?
A. Bill Curtis.
Q. Who else?
A. That's all.
O. Is the name Leslie Cockburn familiar to
,ou?
A. I've heard of the name.
Q. DO you know who that person is?
A. She is a producer, I believe.
Q. Where?
pkg d~e,~o, J[[~,~z, • t3r2)?824o87
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A. For CBS News.
Q. Do you know if she had
the Golden Leaf?
A. I believe that she produced it.
Q. Does the name Rob Hirschman mean
to you?
A. ~NO.
Q. How many discussions did
Curtis regarding the Golden Leaf?
A. One.
Q. When was that?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Was it before or
any connection with
anything
you have with Mr.
after the broadcast, the
Golden Leaf broadcast was put on the air?
A. Before.
Do you know how long before, approximately?
A. NO.
Q. What was the substance of that
conversation?
A. He told me that they w~re doing
documentary on the tobacco industry.
Who was he working for at the
A. CBS News.
Q. What else did Mr. Curtis say?
a
time?
pk g C~;.~o, 9~,, . r3,*~ 7*2-8087 6 8 I 8 1 5 2 8 1
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A,
O-
tobacco
A.
O-
kind?
A.
Q.
That's basically it.
Did he ask you for any information on the
industry or on cigarettes?
No.
Did he ask you for any information of any
discussion as you recall
Golden Leaf?
A. Yes.
No.
Is that the complete substance of that
it with respect to the
Q. Did you ever have any other discussions
with anyone regarding the Golden Leaf?
A. NO.
DO you know if Mr. Jacobson ever had any
discussions regarding the Golden Leaf?
A. I have no idea.
Do you know if anyone working on the
Golden Leaf ever referred to or saw any materials
gathered in connection with the cigarette
Perspectives?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Is your testimony that you don't know or
that you don't recall?
620
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A. NO. I never had anything to do with
giving Or receiving or exchanging information with
anybody on that program.
Q. Did you see the Golden Leaf broadcast?
A. NO.
Q. DO you know who approved the March
broadcast •before it was put on the air?
A. No. It was my immediate
it. I don't know what he --
Q. Who was that?
A. Caputo.
superior approved
Q. Other than Caputo?
A. No, I don't know.
Q. Did you ever hear anyone suggest that
Brown & Williamson ought to be contacted about a
lolling response to the cigarette Perspectives?
A. NO.
Q. Did any one ever suggest that Brown &
Williamson ought to be contacted before the March
broadcast was aired?
A. No.
O. Was the possibility of a lawsuit ever
discussed in connection with the March broadcast?
A. NO, not that I know of.
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Q. You testified about
621
your conversation with
Mr. Jacobson in October in which he told you that
the cigarette Perspectives should be r~n as soon ~s
they were ready. Did he tell you at that point why
he wanted to run the Perspectives as soon as they
were ready?
A. NO.
Q. Did you have any understanding as to why
he wanted to do so?
A. NO.
Q. Did you ever ask him about a deadline
during that conversation?
A. No.
O. Did the word "sweeps" come up during
conversation at all?
that
A. Maybe.
Q. In what context might it have come
A. That it may run during the sweeps.
Q. Was that something that Mr. JacobsDn said
or which you said?
A. That he said.
Q, He said, "I want this thing aired as soon
as it is ready. It may run during sweeps"?
MR. KLENK: Object. He said he might have had
up?
(Wo[f,,
681815284
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some Conversation.
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Well, is that a fair summary of your
testimony?
MR. KLENK: A fair summary of your speculation,
in your mind?
BY MR. CLAYTON:
Q. Well, what leads you to believe that it
might have come up?
A. Because at some point I knew when the
but at
And
piece was going to air. I don't know when,
some point I knew when it was going to air.
know that it aired during a sweeps month.
Q. Did Mr. Jacobson indicate during this
conversation that this piece was one of exceptional
o: unusual interest or appeal?
believe it was
the public?
of exceptional or
A. No.
Q. Did you
unusual appeal to
A. I never looked at it that way.
Q. Did you believe it was of exceptional or
unusual interest to the public?
A, I never looked at it that way~ either.
Q. Have you ever become aware of anyone at
pkg d~a,
ff[[L~mt~ • (312) 782-8087
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WBBM holding a news story for a sweeps period?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Dave you ever discussed with anyone at
WBBM the holding of a piece or the delaying of a
piece for sweeps period?
A. Do.
MR. CLAYTOn: We can go off the record for a
moment.
BY MR.
Q.
Exhibit
answers
(WHEREUPON, discussion was had
off the record.)
CLAYTON:
I'd like to direct your attention to
28, Mr. Radutzky, which are interrogatory
and other discovery responses provided by
the defendants in this litigation.
Directing your attention to page 31 at the
top, the words in quotes "Tobacco industry hooks
children...tonight at i0," which is represented to
be the text of a promotional message, do you know
who authored those words?
A. No.
Q. Directing your attention to page 3 of
Exhibit 28, page 3 is a portion of a response which
states that you examined --
cW°[fL, ~J~°~'$~'9 ~ ,=g~,~t~. ~,,. 6 8 1 81 5 2 8 6
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624
A. Where?
Q. Page 3. -- is a portion of a response
which states that you examined in connection with
with the cigarette advertising Perspective the
following documents. I'd like you to look at that
list, and after you have read it, tell us if you
recall any other documents which you reviewed in
connection with the cigarette advertising
Perspective, other than the documents which are
included on that list.
A. I don't recall any others.
Q. With respect to the various United States
Surgeon General reports on smoking, dated 1964
through 1980, do you recall what you were looking
for when yo~ reviewed those materials?
A. Some general data on how much people smoke
what ages they start, what ages they stop if they do,
what the ingredients are in cigarettes -- general
information like that -- and a record of the various
warnings about cigarettes as they have been compiled
by the Surgeon General over the years.
Q. Looking at pages 5 through 8, which list
)ersons who you contacted in connection with the
cigarette advertising Perspective, will you read
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that list and tell us if there are any persons you
contacted in connection with the cigarette
advertising Perspective who were not on that list?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. On page 6, fourth from the bottom is Mayor
Jane Byrne's office. For what purpose did you
contact them?
A. Ask what role she had in that video hookup.
Q. You did not discuss Viceroy or Brown &
Williamson with
A. Correct.
Q. Supervisor
for what purpose did
the Mayor's office, I take it?
of free cigarette distribution,
you contact that person?
A. I had contacted the person to ask them
about the cigarette distribution, free cigarette
distribution in the streets.
Q. Again, Brown & Williamson was not
discussed?
A. Correct.
Q. And Viceroy was not discussed?
A. Correct.
Q. Page 7, Milton Radutzky, what
discuss with Milton Radutzky?
A. Candy cigarettes.
did you
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Q. Milton Radutzky is your father, I take it?
A. Correct.
Q. What in particular did you discuss about
candy cigarettes?
A. I wanted to know what he knew about the
connection, if any, between the makers of candy and
gum cigarettes and the cigarette companies.
Q. What did he tell you?
A. Me didn't know.
Q. Me didn't know anything ~bout it?
A. Me didn't know for sure one way or the
other what kind of connection there was, whether
there was or wasn't one.
Q. Brown & Williamson was not discussed?
A. No.
Q. Viceroy was not discussed?
A. NO.
Q. Norman Potash, who appears later on page 7,
for what purpose did you contact him?
A. Videotapes and sporting events for
cigarettes were advertised in various Sports
Illustrateds that he furnished me in his capacity as
the sports producer.
Q. Any other purpose?
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A, No.
Q. Peter Lund, what purposes?
A. I gave -- giving him copies of the scripts.
Q. For purposes of his review?
A. Yes.
Q. Any other purpose?
A. NO, not that I recall.
Q. Directing your attention to pages 36 and
37, which are a list of persons and sources who you
contacted with regard to parts 1 and parts 2 of the
cigarette series, as they are defined, would you
examine that list and tell us if there is anyone
else whom you contacted for those purposes other
than the persons listed on that list?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. What was the purpose of talking to Senator
Kennedy's office?
A. I don't recall exactly; about issues
relating to health warnings on cigarettes.
O. Senator Alan Cranston's office, who is
the next page?
A. Cigarette-started fire legislation.
O. David Gleber?
A. Gelber is his name.
on
.cW,,[[,, 3
681815290
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Q. Gelber. What was that person?
A. He was working at WBBM-TV at the time,
he originally suggested or gave me the idea of a
cigarette-started fire case.
Q. Joseph Kolina?
A. I had testified previously to that.
Qo Fine.
YOU have testified at length, Mr. Radutzky,
your activities in connection with the
regarding
and
cigarette Perspectives. Is there anything that you
wish to add to complete the record as to your
research, inquiry, fact-checking or other
preparation for the cigarette advertising
Perspective?
A. No.
Q. So, you have testified in the three
sessions of the deposition so far completely as to
everything that you recall doing in preparation for
the cigarette advertising Perspective; is that
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. You have also testified previously as to
the basis for your belief that Brown & williamson
had adopted the pot, wine, beer and sex strategy.
pk g , e2.eo87 681815291
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Is there anything that you wish to add to
your testimony regarding the basis of that belief?
A. NO.
MR. CLAYTON: I think we have no further
questions at this time.
As I believe we have stated previously, we
would like to adjourn the deposition with the
understanding that it may be reconvened in the event
that further documents are produced by the
defendants in this litigation.
You may question the witness if you
Mr. Klenk.
MR. KLENK: I have no questions.
We won't waive signature.
FURTHER DEPONENT SAITH NOT.
wish,
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
HORTBEEN DISTRICT OF IDSINOIS
BASTERN DIVISION
BROWN & WILLIAMSON TOBACCO
CORPORATION,
Plaintiff,
-vs- No. 82 C 1648
WALTER JACOBSON and CBS, INC.,)
)
Defendants. )
I hereby certify that I have read the
foregoing transcript of my deposition given at the
time and place aforesaid, consisting of Pages 1 to
629, inclusive, and I do again subscribe and make
oath that the same is a true, correct and complete
transcript of my deposition so given as aforesaid,
and includes changes, if any, so made by me.
MICHAEL RADUTZKY
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO
before me this day
of ............... , A.D.
198 .
Notary Public
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STATE OF ILLINOIS )
) SS:
COUNTY OF C 0 O K )
I, PATRICIA K. GRAVES, a Notary Public
within and for the County of Cook, State of
Illinois, and a Certified Shorthand Reporter of said
state, do hereby certify:
That previous to the commencement of the
examination of the witness, the witness was duly
sworn to testify the whole truth concerning the
matters herein;
That the foregoing d~position transcript
was reported stenographically by me, was thereafter
reduced to typewritingunder my personal direction
and constitutes a true record of the testimony given
and the proceedings had;
That the said deposition was taken before
me at the time and place specified;
That the reading and signing by the
witness of the deposition transcript was agreed upon
as stated herein;
That I am not a relative or employee or
attorney or counsel, nor a relative or employee of
such attorney or counsel for any of the parties
hereto, nor interested directly or indirectly in the
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outcome of this action.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I do hereunto set my
hand and affix my seal of office at Chicago,
Illinois,
this
1984 .
C.S.R.
632
Notary Public, Cook County, Illinois.
My commission expires 8/25/87.
Certificate NO. 84-1864.
pkg d~o, D~YL-~, • (3~2)7824o87
