Tobacco Documents Online

2814 2341 MICHAEL WATERSON, Pet., Cr.Ex. i0 15 20 25 AB originally given last November. By the way, you do say in that page forty-one (41) that it can stimulate demand by persuading non-buyers or users to try a product. So, how does that happen, how does it work when it does happen? I have no evidence of a generic advertising campaign being splendidly successful or indeed successful at all. I am -- I would certainly not feel confident about suggesting that generic advertising has never worked. I'm confident that somewhere, at some period in time, there has been a generic campaign that has worked. It sounds to me, oh sorry... All of the... ...I was interrupting, yes, I'm sorry Mr. Irving, I interrupted him again. All of the evidence I have managed to acquire suggests that most generic campaigns don't work and that one (i) of the reasons why they're tried so rarely is because they are perceived not to work by manufacturers and advertisers collectively. So -- and these are theoretical conditions. Theoretically generic advertising can do these things. In practice, I have no evidence of them being able to do that. It sounds to me like you don't believe, then, very much in generic advertising? AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, o~i,~oo d~ Pierre Vilolre & AssocJ~s Lt@e

2815 2342 MICHAEL WATERSON, Pet., Cr.Ex. i0 15 2O 25 Am QB Were it my money, I would not be interested in using generic advertising to sell a product. We are not talking about your money, Mr. Waterson, we are talking about your theory... I don't... I am not finished. I'm sorry. And what you have written. Now, if you believe so little in generic advertising, could you tell the Court why you would have written what appears on page forty-one (41) in the language in which you have written it? Because it is a -- it's a description of how generic advertising, in theory, can work. I have a great number of different sentences, phrases and collections of words that appear on word processors. As I explained and as it states in the front of this document, there was remarkably little time to put this document together. had a very, very short space of time. I I would not claim the document was perfect. I would not claim that it doesn't have faults in. Clearly, from my point of view, that paragraph should have a phrase to the effect that in theory generic advertising can do these things. Wait a second. I'm fascinated by something you've just said. You just said you didn't have a lot of time to AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Division de Pierre Vilai:e & Associ4s Lt4e

2816 2343 MICHAEL WATERSON, Pet., Cr.Ex. I0 15 2O 25 prepare the document. I thought you prepared the document in January or January or February and... Me IRVING: My Lord, just a moment, Mr. Waterson was referring to Appendix 1 when he said that, as my friend knows. Me BAKER: Q- Wait a minute, you're referring to what when you said you didn't have a lot of time? A- To the New Zealand document. Q- The New Zealand document? A- The New Zealand document which states in the front... Q- But the New Zealand came from your document, didn't it? A- Indeed, but it is, as you have seen, slightly different. It required editing, it required little time devoted to it and indeed, furthermore, other bits of the -- the report in question, which is much longer than simply Appendix i, were written by me. Q- Well, but let's stick to Appendix 1 for a moment. I -- what you have written on page forty-one (41), you know, the business of generic advertising in stimulating demand. A- Yes. Q- When was that written? A- I have no idea. I've been writing about these subjects for many years. I have many different versions of many AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, D~v~,ion de Pierre Viloire & As,o¢i4s Lt4e

2817 2344 MICHAEL WATERSON, Pet., CroEx. 5 i0 15 2O 25 different documents used for speeches, for publications of various sorts. I... THE COURT: But, Mr. Waterson, we are trying to make sense of what you're -- you're trying to say. You have prepared an expert report in the beginning of eighty-nine ('89), January eighty-nine ('89). If I see the introduction of Appendix C, you had some time between January and July eighty-nine ('89) to provide some report. Now, the Toxic Substance Board that was -- that came out probably in the month of June, if I look at the introductory chapter. Me BAKER: It was May, My Lord. THE COURT: May? Me BAKER: Yes, May eighty-nine ('89). THE COURT: May eighty-nine ('89). Obviously it cannot be, it cannot have been written in eighty-eight ('88) if you -- if you prepared the expert report in January eighty-nine ('89) and sent part of it or rewrote part of it for the purpose of Appendix C. So it's got to be somewhere between January and July eighty-nine ('89). AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Divisioo ae Pierre Vilaire & Associ4s Lt4e

2818 2345 MICHAEL WATERSON, Pet., Cr.Ex. 5 i0 15 2O 25 Me POTTER: My Lord, the record is already clear that the time gap was much shorter than that. Mr. Baker has drawn your attention at Tab 5 of that document to a paragraph saying that this document was commissioned on June sixteen (16) for delivery three (3) short weeks later. Me BAKER: But that's -- that's a gratuitous remark without meaning, Mr. Potter, because the witness has said that what appears as Appendix A was written by him for the purpose of this Court and simply given to the M. H. Gamma people. Q- Am I -- am I wrong in saying what I've just said, Mr... A- You're wrong. It was edited by me. It was made into a slightly different form. Other parts of the document that were sent to New Zealand were written by me at the same time. I had very little time to devote to it. I was in a great hurry but I did use a great chunk of the work that was in the... Q- Other... Me IRVING: In the -- let him finish. A- In the expert witness testimony fairly obviously. Me BAKER: Q- We'll get to the other parts of the New Zealand document AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Di,,i,io,~ ,~e ~e,,~ W~o~,~ ~, A,,o~, L,~

2819 2346 MICHAEL WATERSON, Pet., Cr.Ex. i0 Q- A- Q- A- 15 Q- 2O 25 that you've written that don't appear in the -- in Appendix i. But we were talking, and we have been focusing, on Appendix I. That is your writing, correct? That is my writing. And that was done in early nineteen eighty-nine (1989), for the purpose of this trial, right? My expert witness testimony, as far as I remember, was written around that time. It may have been that a large portion of it was written before that time... Right. ...because of the earlier November date for the Court hearing. Right. I find it difficult, I'm terribly sorry, but I do find it difficult to be absolutely precise about when these documents were written. But the point is, in connection with what we find on paragraph -- in paragraph, excuse me, page forty-one (41) of the New Zealand answer. You said you didn't have an awful lot of time. So my question to you is: is that something that was written in the summer of nineteen eighty-nine (1989) or was it something that you wrote early in nineteen eighty-nine (1989) as part of the report which we filed, Exhibit RJR-26, but you took out, at some point when you decided to file the report AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Divl,io~ 4e l~ierr, Viloire & A~o¢i~s Lt~e

2820 2347 MICHAEL WATERSON, Pet., Cr.Ex. 5 i0 Q- 15 A- 2O 25 in the end? I really don't know. It may have been part of a third or a fourth document because I have many documents of this sort. I really cannot remember precisely why that one (i) was left in there. It may have been, as I indicated, that Mr. Irving had indicated to me that I should be brief for the expert witness testimony and therefore this was deleted from an original or an earlier version. Given your lack of belief in the entire issue of the benefits and purposes and the effectiveness of generic advertising and given the fact that it is in this document, New Zealand document at page forty-one (41) and not in your expert's report, are you prepared to testify affirmatively under oath that you wrote that and that, in fact, it wasn't written by somebody in New Zealand like Mr. Hagan or Mr. Martin? I am prepared to affirm that I wrote that and that Mr. Hagan and that Mr. Martin and no one in -- or anyone in New Zealand -- had anything whatsoever to do with it, that this document was entirely my own work. That is not to say, to add one small rider to that, that my writing is entirely my own work in toto. Odd phrases and paragraphs inevitably creep in from previous writings, from sentences that one picks up from other AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Division de Pierre Viloire & A,soci~s Ltee

2821 2348 MICHAEL WATERSON, Pet., Cr.Ex. 5 15 20 25 writings in previous years that gently filter through and are changed in small manner. In other words, most people in my sort of occupation tend to paraphrase what other people have said years ago. It's obviously a very common phenomenon. I cannot testify that I was the originator of that. I can testify, absolutely ~-; completely ~ ..... ~" New Zealand, or Mr. Martin or Dr. Hagan, had anything to do with that paragraph, or indeed with the rest of Appendix I. Do you think that -- I'm putting this question now to you as an expert, as you're here as an expert, and in fact you qualified yourself as an expert, and Mr. Irving has put a variety of questions to you. You've done an awful lot of writing, and you've testified all over the world, and you work for the U.K. Advertising Association and all those things. So here we are in a Canadian court, and we have to have a judge who someday is going to have to make up his mind about what all of this stuff means, Mr. Waterson, so I put the following question to you: Would you believe that a Court would be better informed on the subject or less well informed by the absence or the inclusion of that phrase at page forty-one (41), which is absent from your expert witness' report, which you AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, D~,~o~, d, P~erre Vi[oir, & Associ~s Lt4e

2822 2349 MICHAEL WATERSON, Pet., Cr.Ex. l0 15 2O 25 Am Am say you wrote? From the purposes of the judge making up his mind, I don't really think that it is terribly material, because I go on to say that even in the instance of generic advertising working -- even if one assumed it would work -- it is still quite different from the collective actions of individual brand advertisements. I don't believe that individual brand advertising will accidentally have the same impact as generic advertising. I furthermore believe that generic advertising, which is advertising deliberately aimed at doing these things, at shifting whole markets -- I don't believe that there is a great deal of chance of generic advertising working, for the reasons I've outlined in the expert testimony. Therefore, I believe that that paragraph is largely irrelevant to the expert witness statement. Well, what are the reasons that generic advertising doesn't work? Because people are not cyphers, and because attempts to make them smoke more or drink more are much more difficult than attempting to get them to switch brands. Okay. If I could -- I'm... It is inevitably more difficult to get teetotalers to become drinkers than to get current drinkers to drink AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, oi,,i,~oo d~ ~i~,o Wlo~ & Associ#s tt~e

2823 2350 MICHAEL WATERSON, Pet., Cr.Ex. i0 15 2O 25 AN AN AN ON AN Molson's. Good. Now, when you say "smoke more", have you ever seen an ad anywhere in the world that said "smoke more'? I don't believe I have, no. M'hm. What do you think would happen in the United Kingdom if one of the companies tried to do an ad that said "smoke more"? It would certainly not be allowed under the advertising regulations. And what do you think would happen -- well, you don't know about this country. Do you know about other countries? I would assume that in most Western countries such a campaign would not be allowed. Right. So, you talked a little bit about behaviour. Do you know much about behaviour? Not in the specialist advertising sense. I beg your pardon? Not in the specialist advertising sense. What do you mean by that, "in the specialist advertising sense"? Well, there are many books and references that refer to the impact of advertising on behaviour. Those which I have read tend to group around one particular aspect of this, which is the difficulty of getting people to shift AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Division de Pierre Vilaire & Associ~s Lt4e