Tobacco Documents Online

986 451 I0 15 20 25 Q- Hum, hum. And do you believe that to be accurate? A- Yes, I do. Q- The document that you're looking at, RJR-3, was computer generated specifically for this case and I think it was done on the twenty-first (21st) of April nineteen eighty-nine (1989), is that correct? A- Yes. Q- Are you prepared, as former chairman of RJR-Macdonald, to produce your company's financial statements for the years nineteen seventy-six (1976) through nineteen eighty-seven (1987), Mr. Hoult, so the Court can verify the numbers in connectionwith advertising and expenditures for the period covered in the document already produced, which is RJR-3? Me IRVING: My Lord, I am going to object to filing the financial statements of the company for two (2) years. If my friend thinks there is something in particular about research or else let him ask the question and then Mr. Hoult will certainly undertake to have it checked. But it would be sntirely inappropriate to, all of a sudden, file financial statements of a private company, I may say, on a basis like that and burden the record. I might -- may I suggest my friend asks the question, if he thinks there something wrong, and we'll AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Division de Pierre Viloire & Associ~s L,~e

987 452 5 i0 15 20 25 provide him with the answer. Me BAKER: It's not -- to begin, My Lord, it's not a question of burdening the record, it doesn't necessarily follow that once having looked at the documents, one is necessarily going to file those documents in the record. I believe that we are entitled to a reasonable verification of the numbers that came out of the computer. There is no way to do it other than by going to the source, which is a certified financial statement, which I'm sure this company has got and has got very readily available. If it's relevant, it will be filed, if it's not relevant, I can assure Your Lordship there will be no attempt to file the financial statements. Me IRVING: May I see the other document you were looking at? Me BAKER: Yes. It's your document that you produced, number 2. Me IRVING: Can we just look at it for a moment, please? THE COURT: Well, that could be discussed at the break, between the two (2) of you. It is obvious, I mean we're not going to have the witness look through all of these financial statements while he testifies. He can do that... AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Di~i,io. d~ P;erre Vilaire & AssociCs Lt~e

988 453 5 10 15 2O 2S Me BAKER: I don't need the witness to look through them at all, My Lord. I want to look through them. Me IRVING: My Lord, if my friend has reason to believe that the exhibit which was filed wrongly states the figures for research, then he must have something on which he bases that. Let him put it to the witness, we will double check it. But it is not proper, in my submission, for Mr. Baker to simply say: Well, there's a figure here of one point seven million ($1,700,000), are you sure that's all, I want to see the financial statements of the company. I mean if we're going to proceed that way, cross-examination is going to take weeks. If he has some reason to doubt that figure, then let him put the question. THE COURT: Well, what I suggest is that you speak to one another during the lunch break, and probably that could be smoothed. Me IRVING: I mean, my friend knows the financial statements of the company are in Toronto, they cannot be made available here this afternoon, which is when Mr. Hoult's evidence AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Di,,i,~o~, de P~erre ViComte & ASsOCi~, Lt'~e

989 454 5 10 15 2O 25 should finish. Me BAKER: No, Mr. Hoult's testimony may not well finish this afternoon, Mr. Irving, and this trial is not centered around Mr. Hoult's travel schedule. So if it is appropriate and the Court determines that it's fair, proper and reasonable to have those statements, then Mr. Hoult will stay. THE COURT: Well, at this stage, I think we're losing time, let's proceed with some other questions and we'll come back to these questions. Me BAKER: So I take it then, My Lord, that you want us to try and negotiate an agreement in respect of the company's statements? THE COURT: Yes. If you can, if not, we'll decide. Me BAKER: Fine. THE COURT: I don't want to lose time in looking through that. BY Me BAKER: Q- When you talked about children, or people under eighteen (18) to whom you don't advertise and who your company AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Division de Pierre Vilolre 8, Associ~s L,ge

990 455 AD i0 A- 15 20 Q- A- 25 Q- does not wish to smoke, you spoke of information they should have, and referred to newspapers and things like that, newspaper articles, I believe, and... Trying to draw the comparison between the adult exposure and the child's exposure, that's all. And is it your testimony that the children don't read these newspapers and don't read these magazine articles and don't watch television and therefore aren't exposed to the kind of information that would let them understand that there is a risk that their parents might know about, so the parents can make an adult choice, is that what you're suggesting? I'm suggesting that as people approach adulthood, they are more interested in matters of controversy, more abstract matters, and it's just our company position that this is an adult custom and we want adults to smoke, not children. So that's why we don't advertise to children and that's all I can say, Mr. Baker. We have taken an arbitrary age of eighteen (18), which, as I say, is two (2) years older than the age that the Canadian Government takes, but that's our position. And you don't try to help prevent them from starting? No, we don't. We don't think we are qualified or credible to do that and... Who would be qualified? AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Di~,~oo a~ ~;erre Vii(mire ~, Asso¢i~s Ll~e

991 456 i0 15 2O 25 Aq 5 Q- In my view, Mr. Baker, the corollary of what I have been saying is that I don't believe any interference either by the tobacco companies or any other authorities will cause children to smoke or not to smoke. Not to smoke. I think there are other social factors which are bigger than any single authority. I see. You're suggesting that it would sort of require a total effort by society? If it were determined by society that this was one of their major priorities, yes, and I don't know whether it would necessarily work then. If you take any other field, I mean the most concerning to us all now, perhaps, is the drug situation. I don't think the efforts of governments there have yet shown themselves to be very effective. But what kind of actions would you be talking about, if it's not the tobacco companies and it's not the government, then what would, in your view... Mr. Baker, I don't know. You don't know? I think this is an issue which is far bigger than my qualifications. I think you would have to have a panel of psychologists, sociologists and teachers and many others. AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Division de Pierre Viloire & Associ@s LtEe

992 457 Q- Yes. THE COURT: Okay. HUM, hum, We'll resume at two fifteen (14h15). AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Division de

993 458 i0 15 20 25 In the year of Our Lord, nineteen hundred and eighty-nine (1989), on this twenty-seventh (27th) day of the month of September, PERSONALLY CAME AND APPEARED: PETER HOULT WHO, having previously been sworn on the Holy Bible, doth depose and say as follows: Me POTTER: For Imperial Tobacco, Simon Potter, Lyndon Barnes, Pierre Bienvenu, Craig Bordan. Me IRVING: For RJR-Macdonald, Colin Irving and Georges Thibaudeau. Me BAKER: For the Attorney General of Canada, Roger Baker, Claude Joyal, James Mabbutt, Paul Evraire, Lise Tremblay. THE COURT: Maitre Bienvenu, vous m'aviez remis une copie puis je l'avais d~j~, cette transcription-iA. Me BIENVENU: Ah bon, alors ga devait ~tre la mienne. THE COURT: Non, celle-l~ c'est la bonne. Je pensais que c'~tait celle du vingt-six (26), c'~tait celle du vingt-cinq AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Division de Pierre Viloire & Associgs Ll~e

994 459 i0 15 2O 25 (25). Me BAKER: My Lord, I regret to advise you, we have achieved no agreement, which means to say that I've requested the financial statements of the company from nineteen seventy-six (1976) through nineteen eighty-seven (1987) consistent with the years for which my friend produced some financials and my friend categorically refuses to make them available. Me IRVING: My Lord, we are now at the trial, My Lord. And my friend examined Mr. Hoult for discovery for six (6) days, as you have heard in the evidence. There is no reason advanced to suggest that anything in the Exhibit which was filed was wrong. A great number of those figures are confirmed by other Exhibits already filed, the operating plan, Tab 2 of the book, for example. There is simply no basis in my submission at all for a request like this, which is nothing but a fishing expedition, to bring all of the financial statements of the company for a ten (i0) year period simply to satisfy my friend's curiosity. That's what discovery is for. My friend might care to suggest, My Lord, whether -- he started this morning by dealing with the figures on research, and for one year it was one point seven AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Division de Pierre Vilalre 8, Associ~s U4e

995 460 5 i0 15 2O 25 (1.7) million. Now, I gathered from what he said that he had some doubt whether that figure was correct or not. I don't know the basis of that doubt. I don't know whether -- what difference it makes if it's one point one (1.8) or one point six (1.6), but the figure is one point seven (1.7), and it's highly improper, in my submission, at this stage, after extensive discovery, to simply say, "well, I want to see all the financial statements." I might say the financial statements won't show that anyway, because financial statements will show gross figures, they won't show a breakdown as detailed as that. So it would be for nothing in any event. But I resist that request on that ground, My Lord, that is what discovery is for. My friend had all those figures at the discovery. He asked for some additional information, he didn't ask for anything in addition concerning research. That was the time to do it and not now. If he thinks there's something wrong, he should put to the witness that there's something wrong. But not simply say: "Well, I want ten (I0) years of financial statements." And as I say to the Court, those figures won't be in the financial statements. THE COURT: Yes. AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Division de Pierre Viloire & Associ@s Ll4e