Tobacco Documents Online

443 NEIL E. COLLISHAW (for the Applicant) Examination by Me Potter i0 2O 3O 40 A. I would point out, however, that that letter refers to tobacco sales. Mr. Epp referred to reductions in the numbers of smokers. Q. And is the distinction important to you? A. There is certainly some encouraging evidence that there were reductions in the prevalence of smoking or in the percentage of smokers among young persons in Norway and other countries following a ban on advertising. Q. And is on that that we would have the specula- tion whether it is "painfully few" or not? BY MR. BAKER: In fairness to the record and in fairness to the witness, Mr. Potter, what possible use would it really be to have him guess at what Mr. Epp meant on the 26th of May 1986? BY MR. POTTER: That"s not what I'm asking, Mr. Baker. I want to know whether what Mr. Collishaw has just mentioned, as some evidence regarding something is not regarding consumption of tobacco but regarding number of smokers, the words used by Mr. Epp and which Mr. Collishaw has been careful to under- line. I want to know whether what Mr. Collishaw has just said is in relation only to number of smokers and not in relation to consumption. That's all I'm asking. BY MR. BAKER: That's all? BY MR. POTTER: Is that it? A. Yes. Q. I'm in the same document, Mr. Collishaw, but I should draw your attention to the fact that we've changed Hansards. We're now no longer in May, we're in June 5 of 1986 and we're at Hansard, page 14039, and I'm looking at a presentation by Madame Gabrielle Bertrand who is Parlia- mentary Secretary to your Minister, and she reports to

444 NEIL E. COLLISHAW (for the Applicant) Argument i0 2O 3O 4O Parliament in the second paragraph that in her and the Mi- nister's opinion self-regulation of advertising must be reconsidered. Can we agree, Mr. Collishaw, that this is a reference to the Voluntary Code which we mentioned some time ago? BY MR. BAKER: Hold on just a moment. You are asking the witness to interpret for you for clarity what Gabrielle Bertrand meant? BY MR. POTTER: Well, the fact is ... BY MR. BAKER: Is that what you're asking? BY MR. POTTER: I'm not giving another reading of this, I don't need it, the document makes it crystal clear exactly what it is talking about. Q. And she reports at the bottom paragraph: "This is why the Department of National Health and Welfare has granted to the tobacco industry an extension up to the end of June to allow them to submit a plan aimed at regulating its publicity and the promotion of tobacco. If the industry does not come up with an adequate project for solving the immediate and most important problems of publicity and promotion of tobacco, then the Government will clearly have no other choice but to consider possible legislative controls."

445 NEIL E. COLLISHAW (for the Applicant) Argument & Examination by Me Potter i0 2O 3O 4O As of this date, Mr. Collishaw, had your Depart- ment recommended an advertising ban? BY MR. BAKER: Before the witness answers the question, Mr. Potter, I cannot -- I do so with reluctance I assure you -- fail to point out that you have put a question to the witness in connection with two paragraphs of the Commons Debates, page 14039, and you began with pointing out the third para- graph from the bottom in the right hand column and then you jumped to the last paragraph which begins "This is the reason why" If the matter went no further one would assume that "This is the reason why" refers to the paragraph third from the bottom that you read. You failed, however, to read the paragraph inbetween the two paragraphs to which I've just made reference, which says: "The Voluntary Code now in effect has been violated in many cases and on many occasions" Now, perhaps you'd like to reformulate it or re-put the question to the witness. I think it might be fair . BY MR. POTTER: I won't reformulate, but I will admit that your point is well taken, Mr. Baker, My only question is: Q. As of this date when there was a report to Parliament that the Government will, if the industry fails to come up with acceptable proposals, will clearly have no other choice but to consider possible legislated controls, had your Department recommended an ad ban? A. The Minister would receive recommendations about policy directly from the Deputy Minister in the normal course of events, and I do not know what transpired at that level of discourse in the Department. I know that at that point the Tobacco Products Unit had made no such recommenda- tion. Q. And in fact as of that date had the Tobacco Products Unit made a recommendation of legislative con- trols?

446 NEIL E. COLLISHAW (for the Applicant) Examination by Me Potter !0 2O 3O 40 A. I don't believe we'd made any particular re- commendations. We may well have put forward various policy options. Q. Turning the page, and in order not to jump over paragraphs let's do the first one even though there are no questions on it. There's a discussion of the need for changing what is considered to be "weak-hearted warnings" on paragraphs. BY MR. BAKER: Where are you pointing to, Mr. Potter? BY MR. POTTER: Well, it's the first paragraph, as I've stated. And now we come to the second paragraph at which it is report- ed to Parliament that: "... second, the Minister wants a restriction on lifestyle advertising. Advertisements and promotions linking smoking to health, sports and an exciting, attractive lifestyle are totally misleading. We are extremely concerned with the impact of that kind of publicity, especially on young people." Q. Now, first of all, Mr. Collishaw, as of this date, June of 1986, had your Department made any recommenda- tion of a ban on lifestyle advertising? A. Again, I do not know what recommendations specifically might have been made to the Minister by the Deputy Minister at that point. No such recommendation had been forthcoming from the Tobacco Products Unit. Q. And had the Tobacco Products Unit issued a recommendation of a restriction on lifestyle advertising? A. Again, we had put forward policy options. Q. And did those policy options include either a restriction on lifestyle advertising or a ban on lifestyle advertising?

447 NEIL E. COLLISHAW (for the Applicant) Examination by Me Potter i0 20 3O 4O A. You will recall that from a document we looked at a little earlier there was a discussion of principles of various things that could be done and I believe some restriction or a ban on lifestyle advertising was one of those principles. Q. Yes, that's Exhibit ITL-12. The question is whether you had issued a recommendation. A. And as I indicated, we ... in the Tobacco Products Unit I don't believe there were any particular recommen- dations concerning any of the policy options or principles. Q. All right. Now, within your Department, Mr. Collishaw, I'm going to ask you a few questions about this second sentence. "... advertisements and promotions linking smoking to health, sports and an exciting, attractive lifestyle are totally misleading." Now, let's deal with health first of all. Leaving aside the question whether there exist advertisements or promotions linking smoking to health, had your Unit at that time done any research or studies to determine whether anyone in Canada believed that smoking was linked to health? A. That smoking was linked to health? Sorry, could you repeat the question? I got loast in your preamble. Q. Obviously someone believes, apparently the Minister, according to Madame Gabrielle Bertrand, that there exists advertisements and promotions which link smoking to health. A. Yes. Q. In fact, she goes on to say that: "We are extremely concerned with the impact of that kind of publicity, especially on young people." And I'm trying to find out whether any study was done to find out what that impact is. Was your Unit in the possession of any evidence at all as of June of 1986 indicating that anybody in Canada believed that smoking was linked to health?

448 NEIL E. COLLISHAW (for the Applicant) Examination by Me Potter i0 2O 30 40 A. You are not asking about advertisements linking smoking to health, you're asking about studies linking smoking to health. Q. No, I'm asking about the impact. Someone is extremely concerned with the impact of this publicity, and I'm trying to find out whether anybody knows what that impact is, and if anyone should know it would be the Tobacco Pro- ducts Unit, and I'm asking whether your Unit or Health and Welfare, to your knowledge, did anything to find out whether anyone in Canada believed in June of 1986 that smoking was linked to health? A. I'm still unclear on your question. You want to know about studies ... about people's belief on smoking linked to health? Or about advertisements linking smoking to health? Which is it? Q. It's the belief. I'm looking for the impact of this advertising and promotion which creates according to Madame Gabrielle Bertrand extreme concern, and I'm only trying to find out whether there is any evidence whatsoever of anyone in Canada believing, as a result of this advertise- ment or otherwise, that smoking is linked to health. Do you have any evidence of that? As a result of the advertising? No, I said as a result of the advertising or otherwise. A. Q. or otherwise. Do you have any evidence of anyone in Canada believing that smoking is linked to health? A. Yes. My colleagues in the Health Promotion Directorate commissioned a number of studies that examined the question of people's knowledge and beliefs of relation- ship of smoking to health. Q. Well, do you have any evidence that anybody in Canada believes smoking is linked to health? A. Yes. Q. And what is that evidence? A. One example is from these various studies that were commissioned by my colleagues in the Health Promotion Directorate, but there are many other examples too, other studies have been done elsewhere in the world looking at people's beliefs and knowledge about the relationship of smoking to health.

449 NEIL E. COLLISHAW (for the Applicant) Examination by Me Potter i0 20 Q. Well, I would like to see those studies. I'd like to see the result of the study which led your Depart- ment to believe that anybody in Canada believes that smoking was linked to health. A. Again, those documents were made available in my office and they may well have been picked out. If not, they're still in my office. Q. You are correct, Mr. Collishaw, that we do have the results of many polls and opinion surveys. Now, the only thing I can find there is the extent to which Cana- dians believe that smoking is linked to ill health. This clearly ... A. Oh, yes. Q. This clearly is an indication of concern that advertisements and promotions linking smoking to health have an impact on people, leading them to believe that somehow smoking is healthy, and I would like to know whether there is a study like that but we have found none in your docu- ments. BY MR. BAKER: 3O You are suggesting that on your scrutiny of all the documents in the Department of Health and Welfare you have come up absolutely empty-handed with any document which suggests that lifestyle advertising induces a belief in health in one fashion or another. Is that what you're sug- gesting to the witness, Mr. Potter? BY MR. POTTER: Well, induces a belief that smoking is healthy. Q. Do you have any evidence that anybody in Canada believes smoking is healthy? 40 BY MR. BAKER: You know, you're engaging in somehwat of a debate centering, on a word that was used by a member of Parliament on June 5, 1986. I am not now discussing what has been posited to you by Mr. Collishaw or any of the documents of the Department that smoking is in fact healthy. You know, words can be used out of context. So what is it exactly

450 NEIL E. COLLISHAW (for the Applicant) Examination by Me Potter I0 2O 3O 40 that you are asking the witness to produce? would show that smoking is good for you? A smoking which BY MR. POTTER: No, that anybody believes this, that smoking is good for you. BY MR. BAKER: You mean on this planet or perhaps in another hemisphere? Hold on for just a moment. BY MR. POTTER: Q. Do you remember the reference yesterday, Mr. Collishaw, to paragraph 12 of your pleading in the RJR case in which it is alleged that it is common knowledge that cigarettes have a negative effect on health? A. Yes. Q. And you confirm that? A. Yes. Q. And do you have any studies showing that any- body in Canada believes otherwise? A. Yes. Q. Believes that cigarette smoking does not have a negative effect on health? A. Yes. Q. And do you have any studies showing that anybody in Canada actually believes that smoking has a positive effect on health? A. I'm not so sure about that proposition, but if we go back to the various surveys that were commissioned by my colleagues, as I recall dimly some of the results from those surveys, there were questions asked such as: Do you believe smoking causes lung cancer, heart disease? - and a variety of other questions like that, and in many cases there would be a fairly high percentage that would respond in the affirmative, sixty (60%) or seventy (70%) or eighty (80%) or ninety percent (90%), depending on the question, but the other twenty (20%), or ten (10%) or twenty percent (20%) would respond to such questions in the negative. Q. Yes, I've seen polling like that from the docu- ments that we obtained, Mr. Collishaw, on questions relating

451 NEIL E. COLLISHAW (for the Applicant) Examination by Me Potter i0 2O 3O 4O to specific diseases, usually diseases other than lung cancer. I think you'll agree. But on the general question whether cigarettes are good or bad for health, do you not agree with me that nearly everybody in Canada believes that ciga- rettes are not good for you? BY MR. BAKER: I think it's not open to you to ask the witness his opinion on what everybody in Canada believes. Studies are available in the Department on which we have given under- takings that we'll make good on, Mr. Potter. BY MR. POTTER: Okay. We will let all those studies speak for themselves. So this becomes ITL-14. Q. Mr. Collishaw, we are going back to the C.T.M.C. Voluntary Code and I"m showing you a document dated July 9, 1986. It's actually, I believe, several documents and they span pages 4723 to 4732 under the Attorney General's numbering. It begins with a letter from the Deputy Minister to the Minister, attaching documents regarding proposals to change the C.T.M.C.'s Voluntary Code, and what we have in the final pages, that is to say from 4728 on, is a summary of the C.T.M.C. proposition and in the initial pages, from 4724 to 4727 it's the commentary on the C.T.M.C. proposal. And I see frist of all on the covering page from the Deputy Minister to the Minister, he concludes, basing himself on these documents I think it's fair to say: "... that although the C.T.M.C. has made some small concessions in ideas on how to modify that Code, its proposal clearly do not go far enough. They appear to be intended to provide a basis for negotiations." Now, let's turn the page and go on and this document here is the comments of Policy Planning and Information Branch, dated July 8, 1986, regarding the C.T.M.C.'s proposal. Did you have a hand in preparing this document?

452 NEIL E. COLLISHAW (for the Applicant) Examination by Me Potter i0 2O 3O 4O went out? A. Q. I was consulted on its preparation. And did you see it in final form before it I don't recall. Probably not. Were you involved in discussions beyond that consultation on this topic, on the proposal to modify this Code? A. Yes, as part of my duties as a member of the Working Group that existed at that time that we referred to earlier. Q. I see. And in the document, I see in the first paragraph on the final line, "However" because the word however" is there because of steps which are taken to be too small ... "they?, the C.T.M.C. "... appear to have made enough progress in their first submission to allow for further negotiations.? Were you consulted on the advisability of further negotiations? A. I don't recall. Q. And in relation to number 1 under the heading "General", we see that the C.T.M.C. proposed to Health and Welfare a Code which would start from the position that anything is allowed unless specifically prohibited in the Code, whereas the writer of this document ... Do you know who wrote it? A. I'm not sure. Q .... states: "N. H.W... " That's: "... National Health and Welfare"s position as being a new Code should start from the position that no form of tobacco promotion which includes advertising and sponsorship should be allowed except as eprmitted by the Code."