Tobacco Products Control Act Trial
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Length: 82 pages
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Length: 82 pages
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258 NEIL E. COLLISHAW (for the Respondent) Cross-examination by Me Irving I0 2O 3O 4O let me show you again RJR-4 which has been produced, and draw your attention to the paragraph in which you refer to "Market and Social Science Research", and where you say, for instance: "Market and social science research in any national tobacco consumption trends, including that by Boddewyn..." and I leave out some words: "... and ourselves, Rogers, Meyers and Collishaw, offer no compelling evidence." Is that the document to which you refer in this Exhibit 4? A. This document that begins on page 11754 actually contains three scientific papers that were presented at the same conference... Q. Yes. A .... and the one to which we refer there is the one that begins on page 11758 and carries on to 11760. Q. Okay. Now, is it a matter of practice within the department that where a paper, such as this which we are now looking at, is to be presented, that it must be cleared by the department first? A. It is - I receive authorization from my superiors before presenting such a paper. Q. And so I take it then that you received such authorization before you presented... A. Yes. Q .... the document before us now, which is RJR(Reserved)-10? A. Yes. Q. Now I just wanted to look with you, for a moment, at page 11762. A. Yes. You'll note that that's the third paper... Q. Yes. A .... Not th@ one that was referred to in that briefing that we are discussing. Q. No, I appreciate that. There is a table on that page...
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259 NEIL E. COLLISHAW (for the Respondent) Cross-examination by Me Irving i0 2O 3O 4O A. Yes. Q. Titled "Tobacco Consumption (inaudible) per adult 15 and over, in seven countries, 1950 to 1984"? A. Yes. Q. And it goes as far as 1986 - no, 1984. A. Yes. Q. Inthose countries. My question, Mr. Collishaw, was whether you had,as between then and now, completed that table? A. No, I haven't. BY Mr. COLIN IRVING: Thank you. I think we might take a few minutes now, if you don't mind. BY Mr. ROGER BAKER, Q.C.: Sure. RECESS BY Mr. COLIN IRVING: Q. Mr. Collishaw, in the course of your duties, have you been involved in discussions, or studies on the impact of American studies on the - impact of American cigarette advertising in Canada? A. I don't know whether we could call it "studies", but certainly it's an issue that I have considered. Q. Do you know what percentage of the total of media advertising for cigarettes in Canada is in fact contained in American magazines? A. At the moment it would be nearly all of it. Q. We!i, you are quite right. Prior to the introduction of Bill - prior to January the ist of this year, Mr. Collishaw, what percentage of the total would have been represented by American ads? A. I've seen figures of the order of 60 or to 66%. Q. Have you done any studies to validate that figure? A. The only thing... Q. Do you accept that figure as being correct?
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260 NEIL E. COLLISHAW (for the Respondent) Cross-examination by Me Irving i0 2O 30 40 A. It seems a reasonable figure to me, yes. Q. Do you know what percentage of the Canadian market for cigarettes is represented by American cigarettes now? A. Yes, it's less than 1%. Q. Do you know the highest point it ever reached in Canada? A. No, I don't know that offhand. Q. In your studies, were you not aware that at one time the percentage was at least i0%, if not higher? A. No. No. Q. You don't know. You are not aware of that? A. No. Q. Are you aware that the American cigarettes cost more in Canada than their Canadian equivalents? A. Yes. Q. I think we agreed earlier that you believe that price is an important determinant and... BY Mr. ROGER BAKER, Q.Co: No, we didn't agree on that. I object to that question and the speech on the subject, Mr. Irving. BY Mr. COLIN IRVING: Q. Do you believe, Mr. Collishaw, that price plays a role in the decision whether or not to buy cigarettes? BY Mr. ROGER BAKER, Q.C.: I object for the same reasons I objected earlier. The witness's opinions are not receivable; they are irrelevant. He is not an expert witness. BY Mr. COLIN IRVING: Q. Did your department do any studies to see what the potential result might be on banning Canada cigarette advertisements while at the same time permitting continued advertising in Canada by American compagnies of American brands through the international media?
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261 NEIL E. COLLISHAW (for the Respondent) Cross-examination by Me Irving i0 20 30 4O BY Mr. ROGER BAKER] Q.C.: Studies in connection with what? You didn't specify what kind of studies you are referring to. BY THE WITNESS: A. We - the issue was considered. BY Mr. COLIN IRVING: Q. In what way was it considered? A. We examined the situation with respect to the presence of American cigarette advertisements in Canada and the percentage of sales in Canada accounted for about (above?) American cigarettes accounted for in Canada. Q. And did you do any studies which would show whether the absence of Canadian cigarette advertising combined with the presence of American cigarette advertising have any effect on the level of sales of American cigarettes in Canada? Well, what is meant by "studies" in your question? Q. at all? A. Q. or other... A. Q. A. Q. A. Unit, no. Well, tell me then did you consider the matter The matter was considered, yes. Did you commission an econometric study, No, I did not. ... studies which might show... No, no such study... ... What had happened? ... was commissioned by our Tobacco Products Q. Short of making any studies, did you come to any conclusions about what might happen to the share of market held by American cigarettes in this country, where Canadian advertising was prohibited and American advertising was permitted? BY Mr. ROGER BAKER, Q.C.: When you say "you", do you mean Mr. Collishaw personally?
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262 NEIL E. COLLISHAW (for the Respondent) Cross-examination by Me Irving i0 20 30 40 BY Mr. COLIN IRVING: That's what it usually means. BY Mr. ROGER BAKER, Q.C.: I beg your pardon? BY Mr. COLIN IRVING: That's what it usually means. BY THE WITNESS: A. The conclusion, in looking at the situation in the light of the information that we had available, I concluded that it was unlikely that American cigarette sales would increase significantly in Canada. BY Mr. COLIN IRVING: Q. I see, and what information did you have available? A. The information which we've just discussed. In addition, I knew from discussions with representatives of tobacco companies that Canadians generally smoke flue cured cigarettes that are made from flue cured Virginia type tobacco, whereas American cigarettes are made from a blend of different kind of tobacco and they have quite a different taste and that, by a large, Canadians prefer the Canadian brands which have a different taste than American brands. Q. In your consideration of this matter, did you give any thought to your own comments, which we looked at earlier about the Denetration of American cigarettes in the French market, for example? A. Yes. Yes, that was another piece of information that was available. Q. And did you look at the consequences in countries were National advertising has been banned, to see whether in fact American and International brands took a greater share of the market following the ban? Ao That was also information that was available.
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263 NEIL E. COLLISHAW (for the Respondent) Cross-examination by Me Irving i0 2O 30 40 Qo Yes, and did you find that to be the case? Yes. BY Mr. ROGER BAKER, Q.C.: You are calling for an opinion and we will object on that basis, Mr. Irving. BY Mr. COLIN IRVING: I am asking the witness whether the department found in its studies that, having banned local advertising in the various countries in which it has been done, the result was that the American brands, international brands took a greater share of the market. BY Mr. ROGER BAKER, Q.C.: You just made reference to departmental studies; ask the witness if there are departmental earnings, Mr° Irving; don't ask the witness for his own opinions in respect to studies that may or may not have been consigned to writing, which would then properly be called "studies" BY Mr. COLIN IRVING: Q. Why don't you answer your counsel's question, Mr. Collishaw, is there such a study? Ao The department did not commission any such studies, no. Q. Apart from studies, did you simply obtain any statistics which showed the share of market of American cigarettes in say, Finland, or France, or Italy, or countries like that, in the period following an ad ban? A. I believe some such information was provided to us by the Canadian Tobacco Manufacturers' Council during that period. Q. Is there any other source that you can think of? A. Not offhand. I had other information on tobacco sales, from other countries, but I can't recall specific information on brand by brand sales. It was overall sales information. Q. At the time of the Parliamentary Commission
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264 NEIL E. COLLISHAW (for the Respondent) Cross-examination by Me Irving i0 2O 3O 4O hearings on Bill C-51, Mr. Collishaw, did you or your department bring forward for the consideration of the Committee any scientific studies, econometric or otherwise, on the impact of advertising on total consumption of cigarettes? BY Mr. ROGER BAKER, Q.C.: When you say "bring forward", what do you mean, Mr. Irving? BY Mr. COLIN IRVING: I think the witness understands it, Mr. Baker. BY Mr. ROGER BAKER, Q.C.: I certainly don't. I'd like you to be specific about what you mean by "bring forward" Do you mean "table" before committees? BY Mr. COLIN IRVING: Q. Did you present to the Committee, table to the Committee, make available to the attention of the Committee any studies of that kind? BY Mr. ROGER BAKER, Q.C.: When you say "you", do you mean the witness personally, or any representative of the Canadian Government? You and your people, or your clients and their counsel were at every one of those committee hearings, so what was made a public record then was accessible to you then as it is accessible to you now through Government offices. So why do you put the question to the witness in that form, Mr. Irving? BY Mr. COLIN IRVING: Are you objecting to the question or not?
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265 NEIL E. COLLISHAW (for the Respondent) Cross-examination by Me Irving !0 2O 3O 40 BY Mr. ROGER BAKER, Q.C.: I am objecting to the question on its form. It's a ridiculous question in the context. BY Mr. COLIN IRVING: Is the witness going to answer the question or not? BY Mr. ROGER BAKER, Q.C.: What's your question? BY Mr. COLIN IRVING: I think you heard it. (TO WITNESS): Q. Mr. Collishaw, do you know the question? BY Mr. ROGER BAKER, Q.C.: When you say "you", do you mean "you" meaning Mr. Collishaw or the Government of Canada and any of its witnesses? BY Mr. COLIN IRVING: Really, Mr. Baker... BY Mr. ROGER BAKER, Q.C.: Yes, I know it's getting tedious, Mr. Irving... BY Mr. COLIN IRVING: Q. Did you department - Mr. Collishaw, did you personally bring to the attention of the Parliamentary Commission any studies showing the effect of advertising on consumption? A. I don't recall that we laid any scientific reports before the Committee; I know the matter was discussed
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266 NEIL E. COLLISHAW (for the Respondent) Cross-examination by Me Irving i0 2O 3O 4O in Committee hearings by Mr. Epp on at least one occasion when he appeared before the Committee. Q. Did Mr. Epp not say that he would be bringing forward scientific studies for the consideration of the members of the Committee. A. I don't... BY Mr. ROGER BAKER, Q.C.: What Mr. Epp said is not subject to discussion by Mr. Collishaw; he either said something, or he didn't, Mr. Irving. BY Mr. COLIN IRVING: Q. Well, do you know if he said that, Mr. Collishaw? A. I don't recall, but we could certainly look at the Minutes of the Committee hearings and discover. Q. Didyouc department - has your department been involved in any studies in Canada, to start with, on the factors which induce people to beging smoking? A. Certainly not - no such studies have been commissioned from the Tobacco Products Unit. However, there may be such studies that have been undertaken by my colleagues in the Health Promotion Branch, or there may be such studies that have been funded as research projects through our research funding organization. Q. Uh-huh. Are you aware in fact, Mr. Collishaw, that there have been studies done by the Health Promotion Directorate, looking at that very issue, such as that, for example, prepared by Karen Bell (sic), which I'm showing you? A. That particular one is not one I've seen before, but it is the sort of thing that they may well have prepared, yes. Q. Are you familiar with the conclusions which have been reached in studies such as that of Karen Bell and the various other ones which have been done? A. Well, since I haven't seen... BY Mr. ROGER BAKER, Q.C.: He just said he is not familiar with the studies, so how can he know What the conclusions are, Mr. Irving.
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267 NEIL E. COLLISHAW (for the Respondent) Cross-examination by Me Irving i0 2O 3O 40 BY Mr. COLIN IRVING: Q. Let me suggest to you, Mr. Collishaw, that a great number of governmental studies have shown that the inf!uenceswhich induce children to begin smoking - people to take up smoking are parental example, sibling influence, peer pressure; are you familiar with any studies which come to that conclusion? A. Yes. Q. Wouldn't you agree that in fact the overwhelming weight of the scientific research on the subject is exactly to that effect? BY Mr. ROGER BAKER, Q.C.: We will object to that question, Mr. Irving; it calls for a conclusion and opinion of the witness who is not an expert witness. BY Mr. COLIN IRVING: Q. Uh-huh. Would you, through your counsel, Mr. Collishaw, be prepared to give an undertaking that you will be testifying as a witness at the Trial of this action? BY Mr. ROGER BAKER, Q.C.: Well! BY Mr. COLING IRVING: It was one of the questions from your learned counsel in an earlier discovery. BY Mr. ROGER BAKER, Q.C.: If your question is put in the sense of assuring Mr. Collishaw's presence at the hearing, without benefit of subpoena, we can undertake to produce Mr. Collishaw at the hearing. With respect to our Trial plans, I am not prepared