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Antonio Cipollone Vs. Liggett Group, Inc. Transcript of Proceedings. Trial Testimony of Peter Vanvachten Hamill.

Date: 17 May 1988
Length: 143 pages
507809687-507809829
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Jones Day
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Hamill, P.V.
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27 Feb 1998
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Minnesota
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19970311
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TRIAL TRANSCRIPT
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sen14d00

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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEW JERSEY Civil Action No. 83-2864 (SA) s ANTONIO CIPOLLONE, individually, and as Executor of the Estate : TRANSCRIPT OF of Rose D. Cipollone, PROCE:.'DINIGS 0 Plaintiff, -vs- : Newark, New Jersey LIGGETT GROUP, It3C. , a Delaware Corporation; PHILIP s May 170 1988 °=;ORRIS, INCORPORATED, a AFTERNOON SESSION Virginia Corporation; and : L,^.LN' S THEFiTRES, INC. , New York Corporation, a : Defendants. _ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - B E F 0 R E: .IONORAF3Lis H. LEE SAROI:IN UNI'li.D STATES DISTRICT JJ;3GL A P P E A R A N C E S: BUDD, LP,RN::R, GP.7SS, PICILLO, RJSENBh;Ti., GRUEtdBERG & SADE, ESQE. , BY : PIARC Z. EDELL, ESQ. & CYNTfi 1A j1TAa+TLti'., LSy~d. -and- WILENTZ, GOLD2IAN. & SPITZER, .~~.S:~S., BY: t`u,AN ti. DARtJELL, ESQ., Attorneys for the Plaintiff. AIWoLD F. PORTEk, ESQS., EY : PETER R. vLEA.:LEY, ESQ., BY : TiI0.S1-'.S L. SILFEN, ESQ. Attorneys for the Defendant, Phiiip Morris. Pursuant to Section 75 Title 28 United States Co;e, the folio~ring transcript s c rtified to be an ac urate ~e- n ;.1c3 .he ,Q record as taken stenogry-rp2:icjt 1,j inA procecdings. PhYLL1 'P.'LE.'i, C. S. R. Official Court Reporter - ited States District Court P.O. Box 25588, Newark, New Jersey 07101 pU5'LLIS T. LEWIS, CSR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER, IdEWARA, NJ
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2 3 4 S 6 7 a 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 13 19 20 1 4 /. 23 24 25 A P P 8 A& A p C E S t (Contiswe:i ) 6REEtMAUN, ROWE, SKITH, RAVIti, DAVIS j nERGSTSxDI, ESQS.. BY t ALAti S. NAAR, ESQ. , rAnd.. WEBSTER 4 SaEFPIELa, ESQS., SY t D'JHALD .T. COIIti, E6Q.. JAHES KEARNEY, CSQ., FRANCIS DECFER, ESQ, Attorueys for Detendant, Liggett. 3RO«!J & COIitJERY. ESQS. # BY & RAYPiC)NU r. DROZI30NSY.I, ESQ. , Attarneys Eor De:endant Pbilip Morris. STP.Y~'.ES, TAM s & DIY.L, ES2S., DY t E7ILLIAS fi. T JCKER, JR., ESQ. , -and- SIIOJK, E3ARDY & DACON, ESQS. , BY t STEVEr7 PARRISEs, ESQ. , ROBERT E. VOFYTKRIP, ESQ. , PATRICK M. SIRT;IDGE, ESQ. Attarneys for Deferidancs, Pail ip Nor r is and Lcr ii iard. PHYLLIS T. LWIS. CSR. OFPICIAL COURT REPO12Tk:R, NLWARK, NJ
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I I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 g ?n ~ • " 3 14 lr i7 2L 2s, 20 nI ~ 22 23 24 25 1os33 T3:E Ci?UfiT: Cood atternoon. Ploaco be aeated. We are aw&iting onc ~uxor, and there are a nux-bat of thinflb that I can take up with counse3. The firnt thing iG, at the Qnd of our lact day, Mr. airriaga made a proffer, t:cd a copy of it was furr:aeheca to r.o, crspncting Dr. re.d=.r.. I don't i;now whether Pldintiff ha.,; haG arn opl.ortsni ty to review ana cc,mment, but -- iIS. ::h:.TMR:;: ::o. «ucyE-, I Laven' L hwc a cr:or:ce to rcview it. yet. TIt, CUUFT: : ii riyht, t:on. 4tc1i# tho:.' L: s a:ac:t;ssic you shouid ;.ut on yo;:r bgcn6a. C1:Of . r.._r- r i•^",: ~.tL' fic'X~ L S,«f!C.s, :::Z:Vr. i'iu r~'v:Ci L C~ ':,fiC . ..Qa. i. +„ c,f Dr. Cac :.t:uGix z:nu Or. Lee. `i`he ln~.!lCF.i~(: lfi }•Z1iC%lei tc rcai:. :::e Pi4.1nt-Ifi then irjc:.catc:u i!t: c.4y C:iC°'}' l.ri$ :jt,`YeA4;i t: oi7a, I haVE.•' ;sGiX1Ci:(: with un G thoLe o[;jautaom. waicti trc r-uut&.n.:ci and 0 z:ia:.;e are ovc:rrulcG, anu : wi? 1 givc ti:o:~e to i:r. L'ncl::rrroc,d :.o Lwlt you can review al- your leibure. HR. REi,i'u:c:F: Tbt:nk yuu, 3uc:yc. ^t:T.11 CQFS}:T: I have two docuracntrt of tk.e T.idcroeti Cocpozution, one ciatcd hprii the 26th, 19r8, and one dateci May Lho 3rd. 1PU6. AFpacentl.y certain iecLiona were de,eted becou::a of the attorney-ciient privilegc, and I an uuctaiAfng the 50780 9689 .. " • r.VurrTAt. COMM P.EPflRTLR
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I 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 10 11 .1 4 13 14 zs i7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10834 objection of the Defendants to thooe documentc. I have also, so you know that I have macie use of the interim, I have again reviewed alll of the documant3 to which th wttorney-cliant privilege Yas achertad. Thcy were subaitted to' the Court ursder seail, and lot mw juct eay genera:ly that Sii co insta.ncoc, I concluded that the privil.ego vns not proptr3.y anr.ertcd, but that in any event, t.bosg Gocumencs: aro no i,ong*r rQlevtcnt or ndzaius.ble bLcauze of com of the ruii.nq:; t:%aL ti-4e Court ha:z maao or. the clair~.: prmsc+ntod by the Pir,int:: f. ;o Whet I have donc ic, I wf:.2 pecmit the P:wir.tiffz- c.o :ew.~ew thssce Lc: svhicYs the CouCl. 31ac cosicauciet,;~ tne pr:.viiege c3ooc nvs.: cXi:yt tLuci cre rciovc:nt and ::ackiu ix; ::ursa~:~ o-,rcr: anc the :.axsncc: will rriaain unc:e: LeLl. 7•c,: t:vt purpoluc of the record, tho.;c idoc(lurCnL.:; k%tiicli tisc Cour t =indt nr~e not entst f cG tc tt,e r)r:.vi::ec;c wc:c »ra:kcc: by ttie aefendai.t:. as: Privilrged Doeutnent~ Numberw G, 7, 55, and 77. r.L to 77t wr,iCh i:L a itocurncnt c'sateci Febru;.r.y tt:* Mi:. 1370, Z' only p'eraitting a iimited por_zot, of thFat:, thaugri requiri.n, ti-iat ; it be Lis.cloued, and that it. the brcckr,rourWJ sect..rui vhAich acCim on page one and conCludes on page four, finding tT:at; particular cectioh is not entitled to the privx:ege and iz :el.avant to the iw:.uen in trsis caae. As 1'vQ indicated, the balance of the docuraor,tL will remain under seal, and I will deliver t:zoxc now to Hr. Uncic twooc3. 50780 9690 a.1.. . c v e .aM.
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10Q35 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 1L 13 14 15 1E 17 10 19 20 21 22 23 w4 25 MR. C4M £xcuge me. Your t3o,not. THL CCnR'x t Yes. MR. CAFtNr Could I have an opportunity just to identify the documenti, to rahich ycra have claiaied there is no grivilegc beforo thQy're turned over to Mr. F:aell in cafln I would like to talk to Your Honot sowc more about tbem? THe cCUF.'i': Yec. tYhat I'r going to do ira hand tbono four bacic to the Teiendnntu, t,ecIIuse i'm cure you dcrn't recxesabe ~ what they ares, -- }F.I'.. CCIs:c: tio. TI38 CGL•F.:': -- zs-tca give you t3,at o; por zusiity, arul the6 tak'4' a;ioi1ld be., turr:CC3 ovCr to Ua P1cllriC:..f£~. I i;.:vG a nun:Ler oi, ot.iit Zt~122.~j~: at',Ca uEt1.G:G to uiLeuuc:, :aut I unde crt:aUd the jury zr, now r.c:rc, uo I'd rathtr :~oL i:eup tbem srraiting. :;n3 we cari tui:e Up r.,he iiwlr.cicc of ti,utio ::h;.ny:~ t~~, ttic end oE t:k,e c:ay. V1i11 you tsr:.jlq i-n Lt,c 3ury? TII£ CJUM C'LLr.i': A1: rice. (T : e jury or:+_c:rc) :'I:£ CO=: k'! Lt:uEr tit r-tsateld. Good Attecnoon. I hope that you al. vacation vithout ua; and are ready wc: resume. Nr. I:ortbrip? vsd a nice M,R. IZOR:IiF~.I c s Your iionoc , ae' re going to reoume by roading ft= the dapoLitf.on oi Dr. fiaa:ill. G tM_%_ '". •. ~~ l3:&: .. , .. . ._wL~Rt• .~... ., i - rr- clRr_ RFPoF'rER 50780 9691
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I 2 3 4 5 b 7 a c 11 12 la i AI !5 I;: 17 18 1S! 20 21 22 24 25 10836 Mfi. EDELLs llrsy Ijuat aztik you to wait one uecond? I thought we were going to proceed directly with a live witnotrz, Your Honor, and I have to get nome transcripts. :`i3E CCJRTs All rig.`it. (Brief pauQe) VIR. NORTI:~':IPs We hrve aome jury bincer& to pao:: out, Your Fionor. arlf'. COtaR:`: F"11 righi:. HS. t4"A:.'TEFS: kr. Cohn, 8ay we ncc wl.nL'r• ::: :.tie jury bir.dc.~c:> before they no to the jury? HI`.. JtUMNc:LL: Your I:onar, we'+G l.i.ke a 4iae Cr4r oR.:£ez:e tbe jury oponu tlie bsnuers. t.:.c ::(o1_vwing tai:eL, place at u:cit bar ) T!HE CCU?'Z:: Yc::? tvlu:t' s the probaczri .ii't. LhP,t;F~Lu: IL':: raore ofi a ctjeCti.'Llf i'our ::onor, to the cxh:b:.ts cvniaizlea in thx jury troUk, urui 1 cstn't know if Your i1ur+oz evc: rulcc: cr+ ;:.. Sorae of them. I die; not object tcrr but certnin oneri, :. and dcn'ti l:now ut,r~t' c~ in that jurr bocrk I a[ld w:1dt.'I-. not. ii:u :;. LhO caw w@ were furnlut;ed with? MF.. t:,1R<'ruaPs I believe it wao the uaiat that y.:u rorere turr.ir,hed with. There is nothing in bere to my knowiEC3Ve thzat in not either in evidence or ~.Y thecQ awy be onG item htre, it will not be offered. tve will not offer the RtewErt-Lerrclu :.rticle. 50780 9692 u.,w . v,,I« -8 .......,. OFFICYI'+L COURT R D2'CSiRR
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10837 MR, DK?tt;ELLi F3hat dbout the lact pages with the coments on thQm? KR. NORTFiRIP: These thingr.? MR. D14RNELL: Yet. KR. r14&Tf?RIP: Wa do plan to offer that c3oc-urz©Rt. TfIE DAItiaZLL: Wel i. I object to tr.at, ar,ci We' 11 just have to deal with it at that tirae. TiiL COUR':: All rigt:t. Wt,crn wE get to it. All right. FiT1C. ('+'he folloL%iitr wai:e~ p:aGe in oF>Cn cGurt) 11 I F, 33 14 17 16 I9 20 21 22 23 25 :'f1f: CCilfil' s All r3.gY:L. Lc:t :ae juat rcai:.ti6 :.t;e jutU. °lP6t ~ re rCvE:'::1!":~ Fi ~)I G?CCC!'1: ` ~.:~2 t k'J !'~.`aVC fU3.loiJvG Uvs GCC j Ll:at iU, ttti~ tis ll Lc: a rc~aiag ~f a Or,. I tLict :.t, zZ iyc:. ~a . I3ir:ixi . f1(t` .+:, not :) C. I'ic~nil~,L, lUilr l:Uiior. :'TIE C~GUP'~t Aia r:;iJt1 .etlC hc: hisl vC rt'it4"tCF'y ::Y,• an:.vers yJven Lntsar owtAh by Dr. tir. l,urtnrip? DY HR. tiaRTf3fi:Pa 0. Dr. fir.Lill, will you utatd your iuil tu,.me, pleaso? A. Pator VanVachten Hacill. Ti.E COt1fifi: xiar,t to f inisl-. givi t,c, these out f i tit? MR. t7JR'TF:RIFz Oh. Yers. TE3E CJL'Y,T: Of course, the jury is romincia8 a,uir., naac ruloi Do not turn to onytb.ng in the exhibit book until I .S ..~. • 1 Sr ~ • . .. nr~~rTS_r_ ~rs=a~~^ kR~A(~P2•F:R
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r 10838 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ic 17 1S 19 20 21 22 24 25 qiva you perraiucion to. (Binders were distributed among the memhers of the jury. ) {~. Where do you 1ive, Dr. iiauaiil? A. £ctre in Annaptrl ic. Q. uoar long have you lived in the Annapolic aceu? A. Since 1958. 0. ti6er. you were working with the t1.S. Public kleeltis .ervice, war that a iull tissQ job? h. 1 vaz a career officer, yc;s:, sir, Hodicail nfficer. Q. woui3 yuu tel'l s;rs your ciutiea gonerai.: y juct betarc you reti.rec:^ !,. i Y1E'+:. C:AiCf 7«Gd1C.L1l etjV l:,-(:i. in tt1E3 iaat ioTiFs:; CC'iZti: r Cir llcul.Lr. StUt'tC:.iCS, YX::c oi i:t;e :'ubIic 1iEaith SCrvice. I t<ad been w i:.t. LhC liesll-1.t. l:xarai nat ion ::uy vey ar.d cqu:.pmen:, c:ot e€ pulL:onary func:tiWi CN::tinc; uevc.: orL't'nL tor 14 yoarw ric;i,t aftc: r.4z.~ri:intj -- ric3ht txkter :,'sw- :au:1ye r cti;.Ll°eo tt~e:C .ar 14 yeart. 0. vux:ng that ? 4 yeQc POrioti'i, and we ere 1:ulkinq Appro3:V:a~-iy 7:964 ta 1978, ic that correct? A. Fagk:t, Cot reCt. o. Dr, i:=ill, ic it corr¢ct to ct,ar4cterZCe you AE, an epicier~~iolcgiLt? A. Y©r:, uir. ~. Dr. I:ami:i, how did you happen to bcsconxi involvEC3 in :.hn preperation of the Surgeon General's Adviuory CommittQe rerort? T.0 s . + ` r .v. . r.t_ r%nttc%nr trttTirie+t+>~Tt
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 0 D 3. 0 12 13 i4 1:~ ZV 27 16 19 20 22 ~ 24 25 10839 A. The SurgQon General - as a careor officer, I was invited over to biE office and met with Dr. Terry and Dr. Gundlesf r.nd chatted for a while vith pe. They certainly kncw a lot about ace 0 acked bow I would -- how I would liker to join this activity. A.Pter deccribing it in a bit. In thoae clays, it's like tha king, when you -- the requeat is a 3.ittle uoze than a vo:unteoriag. I caid, yer, Lir. MR. MRTgF:IPt lour Ficnor, I'c3 aok zYat L•h;: jury be aLiowed to turn to page two ai the iury birkler. It's 5 pa;o .rom tnc 1964 repurt, wGic'ci iv in et•irlence. THE CUUP.T s M. ua rnez i? 'ri~'. ~?:t~r.~j. .~j.. Zlo piGbiC`'u`~ .'u`~. }otir ~OrtU~. TFi£ MuF:: Al:. The jury t:.:s,' turn t:• r-Qyc Wo. lou bctcwca thE raerdic;a1 couru;,n&;.or? • : vaa cal:ed Vurint:J LY:innJ, but ,.1ue i1t.y;.e . Tilt CUt3f:i: £asc;~~e rs.c am::ju:.ea i;: ~.ieXGca3 ^.i3S t3ITt':~SS: Yes;. I'm norry. I Wao Collet3 vt+riouL tr~ingo, but the r,cr~ tii~r:Z 5tic~.;, i~ thC Etaff wdiCttl cooxdinntoz. I w" oxoct:iivC DocretarY, ocienc.ific diraetor, mar3icai coc,rdanator. T:Y:.tt was t.:,e naAe that ntuck. 0• riad you done work iu the area of amoh.rsg and health that particularly qua3.ified you for that posi.tion o:r were you -- or waa that a prerequisite of the pot+itS.ol3? 50780 9695
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10840 1 2 3 4 3 6 7 8 9 10 ?I 12 13 14 15 16 17 ls 20 21 22 23 24 2S . I van the first chief of epid4miologic utudy for the nQY air pollution medieal piogram in the Public Boalth Service. And as such, was trying to wonder about all kindra of heaa.th effects of this t2iiag cailed ai r pollution. ie didn't oven have it tao well defined. But I had been doing that for a couple yeara and I had fcraui training in opidemio.ogy and a lot of expQrience i Chect aiueaues, cl%»:.cul. So, they -- that'c my pact relevant oxpurience. p. .ro 2'obacco :ryuusstry P.uE:eatCl: Camittec wab invited by t Sc:rgeon Gene:r;i to subt:it E 1i::t of propooe4 mer~acr_- ot the cosanittae or proFwrzeL cunruai:cnt;? : F1I. :IITNEaw t 11%; ' ~~ day lhrc:e. i•;R, UD£.'::i:RIPs 02hut'L ont of Lise nov pac;c::. ':.'!3C It'r: in tsie t,aCF.. t:X;. r:UF.itli:lr': Aii F'r. :.Ot:y. we' re out: of order, Your }lonor. E~E hac: i:ome ncw snccrtion:: today. Q. Wou.ti it be fiit to zAy that tbi& appointment of ti,e Surgeon Gonerui's A:iricory Co=ittee uau int:endQd to try to enswer raeclical quec:tior,G rcgaLding the tobacco and bat2th controversy? A. Try and anuuer tbe guCsLion of, what atti the hwsltb eifectc of siaokinc;. A:,y health effCct6 of eook:.ng that we can yoazibly anuveic as thorougt,iy and tleut ac we po ssib.y could. Yeu, health aFfacta ib a littln broader tasyba, but inedical, you in u . i a . .a. ..
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I 2 3 4 5 7 9 9 10 11 7. 3 14 i5 16 17 Zu l!) ?3 w14 25 10841 kacrw, y@c, sir. 0. ©ut, you Vaie txrlling us - why don't you tell us, if you tiill, Doctor, how the Advisory Committoe ituQlf wes selactad? A. Dow it came about? 0. Yoo. And again, feel free to cefar to any c3ocuuonty. A. 4'hia was kir4 of an Qxciting task. it vas a d.fticuit taEk. I wa3 toavi3y involved. Ihas3 somo guidclines L.=ott, ;i3a Surgdor: Caneral on m~eting:, artct promiseu that he had made befor - I caiuc aboard on -- t: is wt~s qo:.ny to be oprin-r:indeci, ia_t, uno+aued. t;:, uisbir.sed au pout.ib1e. t;abosiy co:2-t.: witt: an e:apty i I'C::dM F. iii!a1L do f01: w£3inl, by ope11-DinCUL(i .::ICY unhii3rej LOL' ~,C'r~e:ct:oo 4n t:ac iasue of docs j:iokiY15{ c:Fu;C i"It; ceeAcC:. if Yoi: had alroaciy r;4dc ur- your rind. ;:t:ett, you knclw, y ou a:c 4L :.e. :ii:.itii.y.y int:ciQi.h.1.C. ::ut, yoLl CA .&0 WaC:t t i have pi'tClp, w 'vi:::.? f;sIow enOu9a ub oui t:3:e ts;cu oo the:y Art cJMIJsL::c az a ;)i3Cl90ea::. It`b kind of a little ait oi a balz.ncing A.ct. ^~W r, i~ Kintl of: in retrospect, it cam out that tk lot of tt,e guyL~, I particuiariy with a lot of other tbings, they l:i,nc: of 1oukec5 at I tbio with or:e eye, in a way, like even thougt+ I 2od Veen r.-molcinq, I vrAsr still a amofcesr, 1 hadn't quite made up r-y n:nd, not roally, the red;ly gut iasya. Does caoting cau::c lung cancer. 50780 9697 OPPICIAI. CODR'r REPORTER
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10842 I 2 3 4 5 6 i 8 9 in 13. 12 J 14 is 3.6 17 13 19 20 21 23 24 25 0. You hadn't Qac1o up your mind at that point in time? lio, no, no. :.at'n got the docuwnt part of the rocord. Why (ton't we xsark that docuwent oa D-I1azi11-2. A. This thing was try final briefing document to the Sutuaon CeneraI. Aftor I b&c3 gone througb a month of wxateveL you wr.nt to know I prcsenGed thiG ducuAant to the Surgeon General in an oral ptc+wentation and my reCo=enuationz. And he ucr.oci accordYngly. I triod to fo:a~alite my Crireriv, rjo,t oL wtsich were atuf.f h3 boc: aiven mc, and LLcrn IK:te &ro thw -- not 4u3y the people. aUt who coxe vf t'ce rccozr;;n,3ndar:, wcrt. P`o: e#-.as1pie. Tobacco Inuv;str.y Fercurci:, ;.oui4 fieLcr. car: wc ~i..our,:, tZsec~ nwL:C':i. ah4i, :."S.r.:rt 11/ f { vc -- they fl.'.c. Ci..`a Sui~IC:-}n (:L'fIG1:41. zc.I ected. Cut only ftvc vosic~ :z,xoo to ccr%,c i4: avariety of rCW'QSiw• tiF.. T7OP.=FCF?II': Lxcu;.•u rr just o raomaant. Your ftor.or• I'd t-t;:cr into evidence L'ti:i.en:lant'r: Soint :ricz Fxhibit 345. t•SG. DhI',2,'LZ.L: Your Honcr, I have an ob38ct'son to :.h.`2t. May we be hoard at hide b&r? Ln TUL L'dURi L jtlL r:,ght. CO (Tbo follouing tukuc pIa4Q at cipe bar) o1 W Tt:E COUit: i I don't have a bool: ot exnib;tc. Mr. CO NortY,riF, do you have anotrsor set of, a book for ae of eubibita" cmv=zz ". a bv , C. V• . rnitTtV ks:Fbn",*1•'.t2
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1 2 3 4 5 7 a 9 'G A 12 1^ ~ i3 i 11 1C 17 ]3 e t. 20 21 22 23 24 25 10843 N:R. 3.'ORTHFtIPs Your Honor, x beliove it appears at page 53 in the jury binc3or. THE CAURT s 53 of the jury binder? tiP.. ti0R!CHl2IP: Ti:at'a correct, Your l3onor. It's right, bere. Tili3 COCP:T t And wbat ia thi a? ttfR. YiOF;:'URIP: It' u the document prepared by D:. I?amilZ that we were just reading about that dau marktrLl s<nd idenC6 tf ieo at t-.is depositic+n. It wtsc also uved siuig ing ttw cx•rua'n4tiar, of rz. ;c:buxian, bu: not ogiereci in uvider:ce. I we iicod it 4-.nd I thinY, f~-r. Edeli uccd it in croc*-cxQtaina t.ur.. e: xucr,c c. f-.F.. I tihInk onc pege wm-~: F u~ in :'ti' t.`.`}.UR.i: i A.i:d {dnt2tz l':": the objoC:Z.iC3ls,, TiL'. LPlrtltla~ :il:. ~1.~T'.c`ii iT,: ryi:lG UAiy OCijeta.{UT e.{UTe 1::, 'tu12t' LCt:Ur. ;:1 uil": `.LmiL1F.nt1l wec4ion, wo have odiT~eilYtiy':r oPini.oTjt' on reup.ic, I takc i.t t:her're Dr. fsrimias'rs, anu tha4 c,}etsL into Lize opi::ion i.4sue. I izve r4o prc,blem with the ot1hcc piirtn, ii ;:hey +.i8rct to rodcc:t it, Htm rG•comai.ridaL iiho. Vaa''i.'ta 1:iaU, thiJt ' G ia.'. wactsal• ::R. MIR^IMIP. I think thaca are factual rtatcraent^. b. Dz.Uaswi 11 ao to who raade whnt roccamer? dbt ions. Thst' s tihat Pae11 u;,ed it for. rih. RDELL: No. 50780 9699 Z'bE COURT s Who are they oor~nts byj Dr. Eumill? ~. . .u .. . a . , . . .. OFF ICS AL COURT REP4p'Y'DR
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 n 9 10 11 i3 1 .44 1.s If: 17 Ic lA 21 22 '13 ~ 24 25 1c044 MR. NOItTURIpc I tbinic they are co=enta by Dr. ciumi1; stating what other people's viava werc. MR. EDELLt Ky urie of tne document was to refre-ch his recollection concerning Dr. Fleaer bcainy rocoawnded by the tobacco industry. It waca't to talk about what anybody's opinions were concerninq Dr. Fiesser. Kfi. DARtsE*.La Your t1onor, if they want to reaact that pcrtion ot the C(imr-+ChtFi, I have no proDieru with it go.::jg i.h. I t:I1:.ri1." the commentS, first of isil, I c3oti't know Whoze Guey Sre) : owe of t.beum are ot:herz', .c+Le brs tt»yr,~ are r,.ot t:ttri,t,u::cd. tkF.. .:OP.TiiRII'o Tt'u an aiiciant, ducucerit, Yout fTonor. t: .LiiL i.t'r ap~szoF:riate to cc,me into cv,.ULiic::s f!aL'ly!t'u Vieii ett tljl: tiM C.*f ti'1E: CY.rCUti:al,Z:nGf3s CL 1q:iLL V'VL gL'M 1 on Yn tise :e+cctior+ of tr:I ~- ca~: ittv~- a, u:ai be' z tt::.if~ ir.o :.houz~ :.t f tilid :.Iie Co13rt' i; 2taiC:vC::~ t!1`u~., ss1~G I~;,tti:lk C.t.:.t .i~~ upprol}ri&te aw & djocur4ent t-2-,at c:ovoir. C,:iat ~~crioc: cs: tir:.& w ::e n thc comittaE vWD sacjng c9nveiorta. i9R. LU4;.L: Rrr: tire h:ghligi,teti pvrtiorsfz ps:rtni.nir.k; to 61i:. iir''.2'l: LL: They're f*rtaininy to bott,, cozzants znd I the recu~^.,~aendec: parts. I have no probleu:; if we ctop at recommer,cied. P.R. S".? :L3. a tly problem with tiai:; in, the Ccurt hr<d exclu6ed testimony by this witness concirning hiu intlreu:~io; z and opin.on,c of varioub poop:.e, and thits ir; nothiny mvre tban -- , a j;. .1. . 50780 9700 " ^•»•••T%* __r•nnr.r n1PttilMVL^.t?
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 .i J 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10045 MP., ilal:fiEiTtiP: Your 0onor, I think he waa part of the nelection prucQUsf he vas one of the onge making recoroendationc. These were recoemeridationa actrd upon, and cince iuoat of the wmbera of the comittoe cam from thic group afnd I think itt goeo beyond cimply hia opiniotWt, becourre it is a hiutorical recorc3 tt.at action warz haned on, and I think for thx+ r+laaon it szhould not oniy got aroundt ttm he&ruay objectioa, but a.r:o thct opinion abjrctiun. Tt32: CCCF.: t We2.1, the onxy t±inr thAt':; not clcar to we froz looLinc at the docu~.~ent, wt;eti:er these are bib opinio:u:, or whQt;Yer uc'u the cjrrnorak conpcni;u:r. Can yo~ rop:Q::ar.L onc wwy oi the ot~ nr t becau:>rr t:y i:ir:: l e: , You rt'orior tisc e4' w a 'it:::: tiUrjCir, i:. wi'ILi r,evGr MI;. ;;0:;T.;F:IT•i I thii)Y. you' re correct. 31F.. EDL':.T.. . t 4kay. . TFIi CCUP.'« : DoeDa the teDt imorly tle+:I with the cotC+ieT:'s:!k?! n~. hCi;''~sr1~`: Ve~rh brlef2y. Z:ariy of the ccmor.tc at not. drsr.lt with. TI?E CuURT: Ail right. So is therc any reaaon why we c&n't let the jury, . fo2low along and decf de later wimther tl:e i coumontu go in or not? I want to bear what if anything t:e uaYs about it. 50780 9701 ~.u , . . . , . . .. nv~tw~w• rr.nrrT nrioANt+i^u
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3 2 3 4 5 6 7 V g 12 .s .C• 17 ZC 10346 MR. CUCLL% Well, aie long aa Mr. Norturip is not directing the jury's attention to a c3oausent wQ're not dixcuasinq during Dr. fiasuill'a testimony. I HR. NOR3'E!RIP: De is diacuuxing it right noW. I THE Cc3t'R'3's To the extent that Dr. Hwui1l diccuuucs i I i.rn hic teutimony. resthing turther. Then I' il 4ccicic a::ter I hear it whothet it zhouid go in or not. UF.. LkR.~:E:.L: Your Lonor* while we are at 6i.ric bsr, wl-,ar. I trznGlated my page and line objectionc at Your Hono:.'u roc,ucLt, I 3eit out tr pagc, it' r. FA<1e 249. You: F-or.cr ra4::tzinc~ a f,.IL".1:,.:r: objcction. I liloul(1 Jufst R.:.k whCtri iiL'. ECrCi:r:.j) Cots tCl itt:7iti.t poil1i:: i"if2 ',j.~.fuwL's s3 we CT..li 'dteal vlta it at ::itiC 1;lur. May I uuk tzadr, you ct-a_• cn Zoi-, ai 4.t? y to ztarp . Fii;. £rF.I'~ELU : I wi: i iot you know. (Th<;, followiny taAKa:: pluce in open coart) :xOi Th:::f': Your Lon4r, :'t; reques;t i.k,,::'. ri,v jury be clio;ae:: to tLri; to page S7 in the jury binc:c•: Ti!L' COUZ:i: Yea, the jury moy turn to par:.~ :7. 1h. t!4F•Ti:P.3.F's -- ond al&o be a2~.crwed to 1o:.k a:t pagc 2.1 23 24 25 T:3I: COJFT s 617 MR. hCU:':!fiIPi Yes, Your Ronor. Tl!Z CGdRT: Yee, tua jury raay. MR. t:aRTHFIpi I'n uorry, Your ilonor, not ~ m ..~ 00 m ~ ~ m N vs J , s v w, C..a. .. nPcrrtAr. mrmer 11EP(SP.TSR
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2 2 3 4 5 6 @ S i.o . 4 1: 3s 1C. 17 16 19 20 21 22 23 24 23 10847 A22 riqbt, Mr. Carison, you can continue reaaing. A. These were big iaagueru. Garctnc3r had two books or conctethfng 2ike that, so, i went to Furth, who wr» -- well, tha was on the V&ge of alternativeL, I bad backups. AZtarrnare choices. Cancer biology. Jacob Purot was the firct -- fly out and talk hitc into it. Fiouor ca=. on. Gardner voulcin't. Schwmen caue on, Laliaistre ca"- on, i'erber came on, Cowroe accepted but 1w wouldn't co= on for about tour or tive =nths. fie bad a book he had to f iniWh. be never carac back, but he sCCOgtod. uaiman and Coouzetir:, they wct'C .».. neit::er one would co= Oli, ia} I htlCl to till. in MvX'e t'e3G'tve6. jlGac't: MCDe£r,vLt. I vii;:tcL twiCe tryint; to tz:?t n.m -- t.e wac, r;y rkuwbor anc c:rcAce of e.~varyuc,:iy. be waL tinr.? ~y -- l:e just couidr.'t com- on. lie iaat;i L°i3tlLnGUL: cQ=3 tt3t'I1LL . :'i.naily, ::tanhope %uynd-Joacz ca:ac orLc tiil <«:: .pot as the s,et3ior taan. R,ap.:.ar., wt:o wa* laiy,hly reco=eac:c.•~ ;; t~x r:l:nost everybody, includinc T.RC, juct couldii't do it. Ho '.4:ici --- Q. j2t.en you aay reco=ac3nued by evQryboCy in ^1RC, w:no ia TIRC? fioaacco Inaurtry Rersearcta Council. Clarence Cool: Littie. I yot to i.now hir- fairly weli. Q. So this UefendanW Lrisaiil Sxhibit Vun5or 2 accurately Ln ~ CO reflects your file? & ~ ~ A. I think so. ~ w ~ . . ~ . ..~. .
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2 2 3 4 5 6 i $ 9 zi Z^ ~ :.3 14 15 lr, 17 1`i 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10040 C~. Doctor, if I can cummarize your testimony on t?,is, ba::ically, what you did, and correct me if I'm vrong, is you wouic'd gather namec in varioua diaciplineu of modieine and ccience frop a number of organieations that - people tt,esy walai euggcsct av appropriutae for this eowittee, then you vould revfe I i thase r.ncx•s with other orgar:izationa, review them dith ccs:iur prGp2.e with tne Public Eieai th Service, and if there aaz, no se r i.our. ob joct ion, you' d rank them and propose them to the :+urgeon General, is< thct correct? D.. i'r: uay ~Do, 1•es. I re:.::od 3sea•oiy y on Dopkir.::, becaufJE ~ hac t*en zher+a cnct I knew a'Lot of the r.enior peowple Lbc r e. .ia•y wtro vexy s3c:ipful. Yc.,#, I think ta-sas.'G - ye:.. 0. You: ob)ec;.j•~e was tr• oc~k Peot.ie Who b4cl t,o:. Lat.C LI; C.hO~r'r LaL1:Cw o: tZi{t C31.1e::tlt7liF: t71ad1t ::iiiL co.R°..iUt3o wsl$ ;;,r,poj.ntcd tc, try to anLti:er? ::Wt tSilG•: oae of L"Itf: JSjC'ctlvoz. it1Ei I StaL:eG•' Ctte.'c, L:!y On jectivt was to get Lhe brigi:teQrt people I couid yet. 0. Get highly qua1:.f ted people that sadn't rsade up tnr; r oincsz7 A. FiSnt. 3oth txfierieitced and inte3ligernt. p, Cne of the groups you referenced or refecrsd to au euggc:;ting naZvS anci ttsat you cbecked with was the TIRC, :he xobneco 2nctituto Reoearch Co=ittoe. Ln J A. F.igbt. Director wau Clurence Cook Little. ~ Did Dr. Littl.e cooperate with you in this procens? m ~ . • . w. .
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1 2 3 4 5 G 7 8 9 I a , 11 ,2 . '3 14 I5 16 17 1F 19 20 72 23 24 25 10349 A. Yep. He had very sultry rercarkt about people. De waa always vary he3pful. Q. Sut, at leant at the tisae you verQ called in and vere concuited and you atarted work t2ey badr,'t even eae2.dcted the committeu as yet? h. 2.o& tir. 2:o, no, no. They Used the fi.rct i.ict oi rocGCm.cndationa frora the ostuids. rroo the ftvo Qroupa. fi'hat'4 all they had. %1. Did the 5urc3ctnn Genernls u Advicory Co=it.tee actura3y 60 zny reacarcli ur have us:y rQaeurct, cione icL tl:cim? h. Fce:,aacch mco:z:ng wcot7 raew ctuaie;,? ;. :=ew ;,Lu,;Iiev7 T,. ::n. `n:~t a°as: ~13 - in ta~;: L: rzt w~:ct:r,c,; r;a~t waL CE Ctat;' ;.o :;e out of ::i:e chr,rter. Dr.caucc :.:: yoj ;:Lart tnce t L-r,ern iitarally tt;cre wouid be sw 4xn u. Fitcau:.:c of uL ucro ic:.sccca oriuntCr:. I C• Co vnnt you diu or wh4t the Surgc:o;: Cenccaz' L ry:3v~ ~c~ry Coruaittee dici v&i rc1,1 on publ.Lched 2itcrature auci aay;x g-airn aowe ini-orrzation f rra, uomo ztudirs ttye'L wcre iu p:ogr•«zr•, irc that cor recx.? P,. And unpublistsed lit-erat.ure. Q. The cormittee did invezt;igut;e sr,me ezi::ting work thatt t,ad not been pabiisiiod7 50'180 9705 A. By ai}l aearis. And did you alco inve .tigste cotare work that I3ad been 4 . 24 a1 0
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! 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 10 11 !.3 14 1J 16 17 1ts 19 2 V 21 23 24 25 publishod? In other wordr, you went behind tha publi$he3 reports? A. Oh, by all. u:eratu, yea. You. I yea. Q. Did you also colieit tha vieub of the various interecte6 organixtetionu? A. Yos. 00 hn6 by that, I gsther, then, what tbic "ct3.on of acknowlec3gmcnt4 oi thc 1964 repart it about? That'a how that Occuzr.ed? A. Thk:: ic Lcie orY.ole coYlection of it' L almost evEryboc3y va twlro~2 to C33at lse:lped us in whoie -- ir, bvn:lety of uayti. uot;:e Wezt l.or:.~csi ccT.i;~~~ cant:.. Obvi4uLl.y Fetc: F.ori:AcTGTl':0 ccru"ultur~L. W.,~vH ,•o:.<<c :nLvrmat:.or,. wro yLu ;:on't - cSs.ffernr,: peop,i.e did -- t'r:ii; 1:--r inti:udez -_ t:P. .our izonor, i'C3 O:icL LaYit ; r;,c jLry i;r l:err;.~::cjO to tuir~ tca ;gAgo tY,rco :r. the jury bins3c:r. :L'r, fron Lbe 164 rwpaz :;, ur:d ir 6!videricc. u. 7I:L CG'a'r:T c Ur. Darndit ? ~ J Co Mh. DR..r:fi',:LI,.: *;o prbbsc®, 1'our i?onor. N ~ J Mllt C4MMc :l,e jury s=y tutn to page three. ~ Thiu wau a :.ist of peoplo that the AdviEory CoarattCa wen;:ed to thank for t~,air contr.butiont: to the report, is that correct? A. Yec. Iwotild amy that' s - yes, I would cay tt,at's: a fai.r charactetiEation, yea. s u. Lo t. . MA. ... r.~r~rt c,t. rnriorr u;:!7+nttmPQ
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10851 I 3 4 5 6 7 s 9 ZV 11 13 14 la 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . t:ow, ammng thia 1Sst there 3a aGeorge V. Al:cn. FC3:,x~~~~t' anc9 executive director of the Tobacco Institute, Washinc3to[t. D. C.? a. Yaa. .1. Did you have any contact with Mr. Allen? A. Yea, siz. r. Would you da:.c r ibe that xor uu, pl*aje? 1 . Inc.. Frobabil h3d a couple of ptfono convaraaciun: and L?;ei: got or.e of L•na LH:bt cha:acte.i'latiolZ:d of tLe -- :.t' u cf1+L Gi. 4aQ .xocuv~nt•:: in ther4 - o~ the hiiato.y or tr,c u::u of ~obacco. I jon' t r nciw who no Who r c ke ..- bow ha cooked it up a.nd --:2nt it to uu. it wa:j ahorruoiuwy va3uaUla. Tuat':: essQntia.lf Ajr contact. tiy contact for overybody .ra:) on a tachnicai --- wi.oevy could givo ua iniorraatir,n, that was it. 0. ao, he provic:ed you what you aciced him tu? A. Very definitQly, yes. Q. Tbsre ia also listad here an Arthur D. Little zncorporato Frora Caaobcidre, t1aaaachusetts. Did you hnvo contaut witL this company? A. Yes, sic. 0. Would you tell us about that, ploase? Ln ~ co ~ A. I think it wao eithor Dr. Little or Dr. Dockett at TIS,C suggested to ua that Charley Kensler was a first clas. I gAiarmocologist, was doing aomt -- hts worked at -- I think he ++au the chief of the life sciences or one of those kinds of things M. / • • • oPPICZAL CQtJRT REPOFr:ER
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I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 g iC { 10852 ~ a: Arthur D. Little -- he was wbrking on c:lial tGxiCity, vhich was of a lot of 1,nterent. So, I went up and every tirC I went up somevhere like that I purposely got aomebody on tho co=ittiere, not just another consultanr, but that was a ktay to get ttsom raore invoived. I think - Ijuet can't recall -- I think a couple guy4 wont with us. We were impresued with fienss pr's lab, wlat no wa$ doinr, a.nd the way he doeu rwrh, and he casr down a couple nonthr, la:.Er, zade a special pro::untntiori. ihat' c one of the things I ucan by tiork in progzEzs, bec.:use whcn we v4w :.t it wae uti 11 11 a;:l in progzeyx. ae rot enougr. :tuff together to Mbl:r a 12 coaexant j:.resGnLar.ion and it w4t, i; Firbt c:.aac 13 Ycyu know, to the wi,cle co=:i t tcc. 14 0. taow, c:hcrc':, sluo 1 iL:tLd here a dc:ctor - uE:cl, I 15 :.i1oulctrL't Lay. T"riire iM wr. FoScrL liockett, Dr. ClALcI'.GG Coofc 16 i,1C,t's.er and t.taj: the 'iU`•.!'nccG F:ESearc:u sTjNtlLUtC Cu=ii.t:.eo? 17 1'~. P.igat. 1S ~. Did you have contact witti ttsor:e qenr.1eD,cn oi ths',-. 19 oryan.:.at t on? 20 ~~. 4uitrs a bit. Tbo juqx:rz -- both somc letiter:• -- I think ~ there auct be five, gix aattorn, both betwersn iao and Cr. I.itt:e 22 and t,o and Dr. Rockett, attid Dr. Litt.ia Linally detailed Dr. 23 8ockttt to L'w at our ZioFusL2 for whatcvcr you do, and our tira: 24 uve was -- vall, it woo really hclpful. Becauor, th ey aa3 boQn 25 in the field for eight years. 50780 9708 M~) . ni.v . , . v. , i...~.+n7s,r n^ttnT L1L•QnyTFt?
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1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 .1 i '1 ~ 14 I£ I7 1E 19 20 21 13 24 25 I mentioned krtsfore the enornous l:robiem of reterencsa and b'_b2iograpY,y, anc5 Mr. Roos frc,m the ilational Library of Medicine, the one that eas working vitb ua, the great reference *an, he and I went up there and apent a day or coupla days seoirtg how they catalogue all the saaterial. 'r~'~ey b,3d been cGlleGting materi.al and they haci an hbaoiuteyy sta5gering collection. I wna inpre$sad by the fnct tuur thoy could tetr ieve it aotter than we seerzed to be aLle to. So, we wont, up there and tn:krad to their librarka.n, their executivc of:icor, to get 4oma pvr:tty usrn good ideas on :,ow to praceed asa;a then trjcy offe.red .o s;ond us any re7fxncc we rc~;uF:~.te4. Q. :.'1Gi t.loy aCrlti j%oti li:if".xe wi.:e'. i4il0 ll:: X;of:4L i:;i:tci.:.L:? iit 2C.'~~,'. .r.+liT,iCt•i: i`v it Wi,if.: tiCire :.:K;r : cuuiu rLaG 4t "Ic,;ht. :'Uu r..aCie LC•:G`re11cG to .:t':f.LGrZ ::ant to yott Dy i•t:. 'riLir:Qr cor,cerriIng >r. C:.arcnce Coofc S.ittl(:. the ve;ontifi.c dixector at tr.att tipe oi t.ae '"obacco sndu»trh Rl&search CoTarittec. Lct me r;Lad yau w c3ocur.4nt conLi::tir,Y of four nar,yEs that has GEern r".azl.ed a. Detenc3ant'o i:xhiCit, Defendant Rami.i iiumbcr ; and ~~ li ani; 1Qou if thor:c are the documc:nts: you had rePQrcncc to? A. Ye5, ait. 0. mc;+ thio was an exchangc of iQttexa between you and Dr. L:ttlcz? A. 1'ets . 50780 9709 .u ., t. W i . . I.. CFFICIAL COURT REPORiBR
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 10 11 I 2 iir 17 28 19 20 22 23 24 25 - 1085~ q. As well as a memoranliua to Dr. Uut4iey f rrur you concerning a vi: it from br. Little, ia that correct? &, tbcol.uteiy correct. HR. rORTRE1IPc Your i3onor, at this p: int, I dould offor into evidence Deiendlr.nt'a Joint Trial Cxhibit 2503. rtR. DAFtNLLL& Your Honor, I have arn ub jection to that. t:R. 2i0RT6RI P i E houlct we t:ave a.: idc ba r 7 MR. hMU:LL i Yer-.. THE COJRT: What page fb it on? 3s: it x.: the hook? Mr,. PDRT8RIN IYt ir, on page 35 af ttse jcary vinc3c=. (The Loilowing take.; p:.mce a; :~Yde L:.r ) .. tm. DkFi~~.s..~ I~: ~'~ ~I~: Your Honor, Z object to tbit. • c .*. Liiil• LEYCc:LitjQr itl th:ii EXr:i.t.`1t" 't1:. ili:m4ili yivie:: r.Il.:. :12:~iirn r3:i LC> FIr. L•'i`..t.iic 4 t2ii:i LtSe VUCy SaGa Lee.i'.:i!ul?ny talraE: i:LL:CrE:31 G}' 'YO:31 flonc,r w1nor, :3e Lau >:eao it thz rocczc: u:: p4ri. e:i :::=. a.=:wer aad wt;en Your fionor :.ustainc:. :ay G:•1ect3.on to it. cc I urst3't knou u?,at Lhf uif.arcnce xe Uutvcen having ~hia: reaci it anu havisicj the ac:tuel doeue:ent. nrtd iL's not proper foz afact witnor.r;. THE COi1RTi Yec. I' Ii. sfustain ttie c:: jacti on. tr,era' s a way to redact this riocutnent juct to exclu:iE Lis :f opinior, of Dr. L±ttle, be cari certain3y talk aboLt iiic> mecLlng aad the xeuultn of the meQtirig, but hie opinioli:., as+ to that. I' Ii austair 50780 9710 So it tbarQ's a way to redact it, wet'c do it.
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I 2 3 4 5 6 7 V 9 10 11 12 13 14 17 20 19 20 z2 » 22 23 24 25 10055 AiR. NCRTfiFtIPs Your Iionor, I don't knov that ttsero is a practical way to redact it. We can tako a look at that and porhaprs offor it tomorrow if there is. TPE COURT: AIi righ::, fine. (Ttte fr.l2owing tatec place in open court) KF.. DMIICLLe Your vonar, would Your Donor give the appiopriate inatruction to the jury that they are not to tutn t the pAges where this document apFearu? THL C4QFT: Yes. Well, the jury zf,ou1G not have tutncd to thit, p.aqe. I;:hink thc:y'vL abic:ed by my ins:`.ruct.an-~. Hfi. DtUZN::Li.: ~'hank you, Your Eionox. Q . Dr. Nu=i i: / 1 ct iic t,snc: you Wbct f4~:. ,x;en r~. i.erc: aa DeienJj&ni.-,' 1:am.;z1 11 ,,.,i, ;f you ean ~u4nt~.ytr•zt u0c;:rnolite r}- t::at I reas:, k•hc; autrored wt una ap"proxizi4tu:~y V11eF:. h. xe:s, t%iL. :;;*b edr.xst1L'C:, TS1reE: .,~`~I;cgg(3:;f.L`tt to thL3 Sttld1. 'I'hV pLtrQftC:iCi.1C: 1:~taC.t'.M,.^+t.::# .''al't.h~ ~YJit'Ef LLt• Zl .'tuYtE.'[i :iCZio6':?U&.ji' Cc3~i~:Gi~ i.iiU'Y ate lioi t1li' Cy'iY ;;Gu:.ajji:lty, clo3@ p3reIZ. T.iu vnr. c]onc c,o ,:1y by me with ri3Vicc, z7,or:e auvi.ce, from Dr. 8a;rne».3oRe;., Dr, tiunciie}•, I think Dr. flunci:ioy pasre4 it before Dt. Terry, thu.u Particular one. Dr. Princ3ie, who wau chief of the tlureau of Publiz Itex.lth Hethocs then. Isnd pot:;ibl Dr. £nJicctt. That' y -- thaso wert __ tliig is a bactground paprt in prQp.:tation fot the very f:lrtst mecting in attomptiug, as a discuerion piece asi3 to brorsdiy outline differant ways L•ba . . . ' ::a . .v r 50780 9711. Qf'FICIt.:. COURT RRPORTER
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10856 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 € 9 10 11 12 ,3 ~ 14 15 16 37 16 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 thQ utudy could be undortaken, but they were the ones who --- 6~ the : urgecYn Ganor a1 told tham, to cealce the decision. Q. Sut, did you writa this specific cdocumont? ~~. Alsost ttte whole thing, but I had advice, yass, atr. M?t. R©MERIp: Your ilonor, I woulr3 oPfer in evidence rieieizuant' & Joint Trial Exnibit 3047. U.. DAR2tF.i.Ls Your Donorr I have the seme objecticn n to tt,Q pr ior ExhibL4. 1n COURT c P7tirtt paqe i:r it? It ic haye 44 ar, tt.Ike jury nlnc:cr. I bc:izvG, yctur F1orior, tt,at ray be a pare witbir, tbe 4;accuwenL, bu:. i r: t: c c.iocumcnt. s; hy dut:' e we havr; a r.ine k.ar on that ane. T::E CULRT: FoJe 467 '.:F. NDRTL:'r,lPs 3+C, I bu11.eEse, 'ioai idcyr+o,:. Tti:. CtiCUi:'''7 Let me juvtt read 'At f:r::t. (The fcl.:owiDr ta4ec Pixce at cicico bar) "NIi: CCUrT: 13n't thiv tha cam e tb2nc;,• MP,. D&R3sF::.L: ye: , Your Honor. 2H^ CaUP.Ts Teatimonial? t'Ft. CQGNt Judge, look at aii the ribbors:.. Zt'c got to be adm:.:ai:,io. :'i!E COtiRT t YOE. (waughtet) DR. NaR:URIrt :hib ia very dkffaroi:t. fii.is ia a ~ ~ CO GN • . ~ .r•• •
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1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 1c 11 12 13 1.J 16 1-7 it 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10857 documnt used by the Surgeon c3eneral' c l.dviuory Co=ittee at on+ of their early mQetings, prepared by Dr. Naraill, aith asmistancer, he xaye, by mamberc oE tha co=ittee. THE COtfiTt You mean tni:a, p&qQ 34? ~',R. NGRTi3RIP: No. I bope - X'm norry, You: Vanor. Hlt. ©MWELL: I think you ceant page 42. TYiat ° s vhar I thi.rik the cdocurventt startz. PIR. KGRTTRIYt Qkay. Wei:.e 1 apol4qixe. I otntiouciy rjust hi:ye given you the wr6ng page. Tylilt' S1 it. :'GE CCtTI:T: Is ttiertt ar,y ouZec4ion to tt:iw? ts~~. Ul~'•2;LLL s :e::. Your !Jot10s . dc;cutatr:,c, I'tj not zur$ wha'sL l.wge t li:~ vi6 .Yt w L•Z)t!i:i: [ L 1.T1 ifll: ;; U r`' 1)oaY. f am ta~,aE the terr:t ":'hc scierai; iC cor.M :r~::c:y hus no:.~ yc4 ucvoic.p0:l 6atir.isctory Iatorencc-wakins rn tu~~ urco:," an;3 :'rur t:vrlot 3urtalnect tay objection, tEli+ng ave,:Xc:ociy wkt.:t t;e :acar.c: !:Py :.hst cLatcrg-tit t,t ptige 219 uf the depositioc, ~ot:r i3at:o: trte objeCtion, s3o it'n cottin5 the barAa te::tisar~ny in t;hzuu,;U titc oaci: door, vsuich iu hib ok°inf.on in the orcL uf what iYe me&nL ?Ar.c what is meant by this torra. T:crch'j postulat,e:.. ~ :13L CGUftT: Is the objection to the documant or hi:~ exp2ar.ati.on o« the docuront? i4R, nA~Z2:RLhs It'2 to both, in 9etMing torth hiu opinion, and when he went into it, Youx Honor Guotained the entire line. If they want to excise page 14, then i:kat'b Ln m ~ co m kD _J w tlRttiiL~ r . ty~uv. ~s~t ~.. v. OPFICIlu, COURT F•i.h4t:TLR
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 6 9 10 11 ?3 i4 i5 i6 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10858 perhaps a diftQront - raaybe we can aGCOCCaodate it; but otharwise - Yit, T1OMIHF.IP: Your Aonor, I think this is a document that Dr. Pama:l baa just testifiod from his deposi.tion that wau pxeparcd goz the Surgeon General'n Adviuory Comi.tteel i,t's par of thc backgrourui of the report. Be said he had input f rom Dr. Dayner-Jonet, the chairmzn of the eo:anittee, and thiu fn more thZn juut hiu o~•i:.ionF it's a part of tho ae3tberationc and r.iztory cP the organizntion, azid I thlnk it' s a,-pPro;rriate for ~ thc jury to hear that. t:Ft, OtaR^:U:,L•: Your i>vnor, theta's no sY,awit:a tan; uaere I in the t:iat anybody on the t;o«.r,itrQe ever ut;eG tt.ii: Jocuuent. :.r. L-;ic 1.,LizriotY ju.z-L rccc: by Mr. ?:cartl:rip, t.hc:y ;,aft: tLex r:acic ul: thric own mar:cl:., atui ;n iC., Or. 1•ian!i:.l a.r.ta:: tllr opir~:ons ~ ~c ti2izt t'sir: :tato oL t.::c art vac at tallc: tiro As for i:li.0Lf r:n:i Your ilonor buctairled wy objec::lo ' t4 tn::~ tc~ti:ac:~l ar: r.a tt,i:. l:or: ior: of the Jscuracnt at -k~4y& 21 of ttlct r"iepozi t 1.an. he n ~, . . . _ ~ . ~ .i . o.~, ~joCt:vn. ap. ~:..iiaaZ. Your j.~L7YK)r d:~ ~.:c.te.n . UF:. DhF,MLL: Excuce mC. ^tm Ct?CRT: IE that the or.ly portion that you object to? 1F1F.. GRRNi:LL: Yas, that' a cortoct. Tfl-:~ COHP,T : Vo thgt' s Romi,n nscaera2 tbcec cn poge 53? MR. DAMNELL: TY,At's r.orreat, Your F9onot. G s:, 50780 9714 PiCXAL COUH':' REP©P.TER
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a 2 3 4 5 6 7 f; 9 i 1 13 10. iC 17 10 13 21 2 .~. 23 2A 25 10859 MR. NOATf3RIPt Your fionor, I ctrenuously urge that th Court permit th.at. TZse document in part of the official document of the 5urgeon Gonerul's Advisory CourmittQe, a documan used by thQm, and I think the yucy is entitled to hasr what tho document uays. Your Uonor hafs uustained the objection to Dr. t;atai1l' e cxplain:ng what lu: aoanfi by it. I think Yvur borior vhou3d not have done that, but nevt•rtheless, it aQcr..z to m.o thaa the docun;ent vtAnds in a very diti'ctant pou.ition bccau:e i:. das circulated for use at thd rsc,etinr. HP.. UMUlEf.t.: ?hero's m showinc3. 1`r>ur dcnor, it s.'as never uzed or xeliea onj or,ly tbat it wAot vriti:Qr: by Dr. aamill arui pa:;ned itc way irtto the Na.tionu: A.rchive:. "1*ic,tiy t:avr.d evcr tcrnp oi IapCr. Th3t' t; the only evi4c:ncc that tt:L Lct va:: __ t1t:. Ibea 1eSYe it waL ta;It,ilaony o€ i:r. uCr2UJk&r:. ,rUE CCDL)RT: Lcat' c}u::t ra:.t, .:ibvc:t t:,i:; zn yc:nc:i:.:.. Mr. 2.crtLr:;;. nssu&i:+r t-44at Ma mberb of tt:c: cucx.actc;e zacic cuUmisLion:., doca every submisulor, bocome adzi :ci.b3.e :f iL Wa r, not aceepted by the Surgeon GsntixuX'o corr-ittee? HR. NGI:TRhIP: Ou, I thins: f t' & ru:.avant, You r t1onor , as part o€ the deliberation of the conzLittee;, cnd part of the clriim that they were conciiiorinr,. Tf3E COuR^: But vhy? Why iL~, it raievant? MR. i10M'E+P.IPt This is raore trtan s documctnt by Dr. Hcamill, because bxc tQstimony i.s that it involvea the vi®wa of .+ 27. t\..., C..+. .. 0PPICIAI. COURT REFOR:ER 50780 9715
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10860 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 s 4 10 11 12 13 14 La 16 J.! 2el 10 20 21 22 23 24 25 varioua mm.bers of the comittee, and it was the gtacting paper for tbem. MR. DFsR:'~i.LLs That's not what be uaid, Your f3onor. He said it was basically all his with :soa:e 3yackgroundr and he nevorl identified who telped them. NFt. PiOFTI.I'iIPt Ue did. Ile said Layne-.7onec:. KR. UMELLs You r3on't know the or.torit to which -- i t~.I:. VOR2:.RIP: TY:Wh zic;#:t, we don'r k::e.W the extant. IM. DAF.t:L'LL: You uon't knasa if Ba}•ne-Jonez cbnngcd one word or wrote the salioia tt:ihq. :iiF; COURT: t,!:k.t' L the c:nLe of thiL? i)o you :r.vo tisE f:r. DT:i:t:'"'LL : 19G2, proU:cbly. Ufi. t.ai'Tf:12ITF: 1S)62. Your Vonur. HFC. W-.'.iLLa,T i?y Dd-AE:iC p:oblEM, Yeuz M1!pi- over into the VpiY11Cn .d.~rVa with Dr. M{wmii1, 4n4' ~.`. ,u/t Llip;, it right into the ba::r. aoor. :.M COUFti s C:io ib be the orixy fact w:rneru7 Mk'. I:OEi'M: IP: Lie w3t:r+' : at. the ti&v of thr: ciapositxon. 14P.. GARttELE.: But he ia now. THE CO;:F.2•: On that baZiar I Will surtain the objQction and coqulra that that pbrt be dclotec3 fma the subaii.ociors. Othorwise, you have no objGct:on to it? . P.R. 111.RlIELL t That' s cor r eCt, Your bonor. L'a t'• = t~l " ~ .v. :.
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10861 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 6 9 i1 34 1 G lry 1S 19 20 . 2• 22 23 25 THE COURTs So it'a Roman ncsmeral throe, page u the jury binder. (The folloving takes place in open court) Q. Inviting your attention to page three of the docuaent, an8, Your ponor, I'd request that the jury t>e permitted to turn to the jury binder at page 44, Q• titt. DIhRtIELL: t:o objfction, Your Honor. TI:E C3URTi AI1 xigbt. The jury aay turn to page 44. 3nvitirag your Wttenkiorn to page Ghrec of the dcscu=nt, yoO are taikinc3 about work that the cor.witter jsliouicx ao. zz; thMt yoLr :,ttiter;ent, bocidex: going cieeper into thc kriotti`f;r ::uci, aU 1ur:c1 ct,nceer, t:rart di:zeat-e, o:L cc-r.r,r&, tlie cou:riitt:ct rwmberr e+ou3d &2co con:;.i:1cr sor.w a:. L1,r fo,t:.owin4 k: rldL oi tt,lilg::3 h. I ruven't Qeun Lur 22 years. u, t•zt::c your tirw. .f f you want, Eoctor. :'Ut., :.iz. 1•«rott cisatr and, yf*s:,. I Q. B.u the torsa, tnaGti.erst E;robiem:;, such nt. :ung c:ar,ccz, have to do with dQtercaxninC w:,other or ctot 4iyuzette nmok.:rg ca:3:;tti3 wt1nq CQ[1CeL t 50780 9717 A. :`hal'a a good deocription. (). A:vo, you e:tato, " one of the thingh the cdmi ttee wc:r.tttc:rs would z+lbo coneidor, the setond one listcd nc, c,Lote, a very zcricus eoa.:iueration ot, quote, Cc+ucati.on ar.: a::a.ociatior:, c3oue quote, although, becaube of the tirae '.ircitatirsn, thi:; can J "• + M, • '• • ...r%~ rnfl1S`30"T`D
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1 2 3 4 5 G 7 9 10 Ii 12 13 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1111162 :xs only vory superf ici.ally explored? A. That awtans at thia fisat eeoting. This vas a dGcunent AE'ur the f i r at eeeti ing, yen. . But, you didn't ace how they could ®ake the decisYUn without creati.ng aoae utar.darda? A. Thoy bettur creato zomQ kind of standa+rdo, fer•, or a:ti:ec r.tanda:d:, tha;t may becoiam univerao3 like Foch' ypoatu1acu;: ar,d ciziseled in nc:ona cr at 3.east articulated, sayxng, r,ab d.u 'ie corzo to t,i:ass conciu::lonc;. They Gad to, at 3miniiuur -- ai: a ..ain•i mu: , thuy haci to do tyst. noy d.td vo co ;Q -- aor,¢ ktre Zithor at the baginning af the booE: or at the c:-,d cf" zi;t; book? 1. Uow did wm corze to thene conelu5iotW. ?. And they did tsat? A. I think they did, yes, air. Q. Waa there a debate ovQr that on the covrsittoe? A. Ob. God. Q. DifferQnce of opinionu on Oat the stanc3ardla ehou3d bc; tt. It ventt on from the firat meeting to -- iwasA't there at tDQ 2aat aaoting, but I know it vent on until we - there were various debatea ail the vay thirougbo it was touch. It kind of avolvQCl and just kind of arose. Caat out of nobody's hoad. ho mino. ttot the Surgeon Goneral's. Not Dr,. Bayne-Jcnes'. It vasn't in anybody's bcrad. Didn't exist aa such. . . . . . OFFICIAL COUBT R,:Pd1tT6a
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10853 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 15 20 2I 22 23 24 0. Cam out of the dfscussions of the eoasmittea and ultimately their dvciuioao? . 1'ea, sSr. Dincuunions and argumentn, too. Q, would those novr dtandards be reflected in chapter three 04 the A.dvisory Ca=ittoe report, entitled, Cri.teria For JudCment? 'lour Conar, i' d "w, if ti:e jury raight turn to page 10 irl, the jury binder. Wc in Qviuence. 1.. ~ !"`.lt. DAAc;f.:U: 102? ~ ciR. '..'OT•.^i lifi iP: 102. ~ : KE CGU?:."s !:+ . aarr,eil? r:r. l?r.W;CL,L s N'o objoct3.os:. TiiE CGUX :': 102. ';.'i~e jury ~y tt~.r:. Y'ax.r L;1.Z, a;ici is, :ao.e CT.CCiCJC:J iri baci. ir. -- Y:ex•e is -- But, tt,c 6taz-kucrc::. aate ret out in char,tEr t13Lce, ia t,bat c ur:c:ct, anci 4t~:urs thay wc;r+c ap;~:..er~ in o;.l:es chapter: ? $. Cut, cvoy are ve~-cribe(3 a lot s,ore .r. one specif iC ct::.ptcr' o;rJ appl ied anti us:,od :.n fjleu*h and blood. That' a ht,a: tt)C~ tbiu is roa33.y cxcerptecl frora t:+at. Q. So, tYle rar,s:t extenr,ive raccount of the: r utilixatioi: uculc: bo found in chupLor nine in tbe uectior, oatitled, quotc, c.vuYuation ot the Ausoci.ation nerwaen Smokind anii Lung Car.cor, unquote? . Y66, :.ir. 4. Wa12, thos:e criteria that we are ralking cstout, Loctur. 25 were developed by you and the Surgeon Ceneral's hGvinory 50780 9719 .. ;. i.u '. 11 v r , . . 1. OFFZCIP.L COURT REPiaRTER
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 S 9 10 11 ?F 33 i4 15 3.G 17 20 21 23 M M 25 Co=ittee, weren't tbey? A. Cy the Surgeon Get,nral' g Rcfviaory Cosamittee. 0. Yuu played a colQ in that, didn't you? A. I Ylayed a rola, yes. ^bira is tbeira. p. Now, Dr. Hamili, at the laet sosLion ot your c3eposit.ion !'.R. D?11t:i1:L:.s C]cCtiU@ irie. Whbt 114907 V.F:. *.3OR"i'c3RI r: 1?. Q. -- I bclieve you utatec3 that tho Vurgeon Gener4l hsr3 ....~ adv i ued ti:e co~~::.toa that they would hitve aw iuucr. ti6rie ai; L tsey needeu to c=plote their aoui5r.ment5f do you rocel; that? A. 1'C'i:, Cair. yf. :) r. uc~r..ii: . iet rx s:I:ow you what tws Le en ~.rl.u9.1 uc; c:epocition L'x, r.i~:t Tiwmi.ll r,cmLcr 31 ar.d w:,R yo4 :: yvii c4a idcr.t_fy tia:, docurcat. 1'{. 704. tong tit;a: ago. i'eu, I rccvg;.ixe that. tl4.ut• is that cavcuraont? F•,. 1,.'o ons vL the eariy paiJer.G entitiad °Exar.in4L:o:.: A C:itic;us of F.xpert:; on Attempt, to Inc3ucs Cancer Wiia Toh*cco uerivutives:," by i3aro.d sxe:anrt and Cutiteri.ne rlLrro~:.6. R• j:bz that docuwent propared at the seriues:t uf t:1e S4rgcos1 Canr-.: 41' 0 ht$v 1.f3oCy C6rai ttoa? h. Iaa jsaying -- I will qualify that. I think it Wac: diracteti by the order of Dr. Ken Endicott to thom, who worked tir thewt xn;i we uzad it in a ai.~ccial mecting, our f::rcrt c:ncer suo; ection meeting. 50780 9720 u. . .. f ..>a--K . AT. CAT1trfi DFPf3L14-rr_R
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I 2 3 4 5 6 7 6 9 10 11 13 :C 17 16 19 20 21 2* 23 24 25 Q• A. 10865 WhQn you cay ve uued ir, who aro you ruferring to? Eitber all or pont of the people on the comitteo. I don't know if - I don't know it everybody was thore at that meeting. p, Who vete the big co=ittee? What was thcr title of tbe bi~ co~.~nittee? A. The Advi oory Co=ittero to tho ,urgoor. Genc:rai on 11ca.lth, uffcsctG of 8moking On Ileaith. g• Dn I unde rctanii yoc: r tu ~:: irony thcn tt:aL tt:i s docswent wa: u:+©u by rhat ca=attee? I wiia ranhzasu it. '4-:a:j thU uocu:aenL u5o~I Ut~- t;.o commi Ltcc? A. L`~,ccl in toc t;tnse af ar.:: vcry C:oi2Llderec;. Q. S1I1C1 We3:: D:. B41C1iC:Ctii.t? F,. D:. E11diC:ott isral• diYttGt'GY' C'f UhC: iat1onUl C-La1•::eC :n::~titut( (i t .Y-1.. 0• And who waa Dr. ?ta:o2d &teHart, one of the aut:;or;. of ttS.: c:ocJment? A. Chief Juborat.carj of patt,Oi.ogy. rsAtio:Wl Canc'er Inr:t:tute, 2,CI ic a good chortcut f or that. 0. Dr. flaaa'"s21, who was vx. -- wno was t4lii4m G. Cochran? A. Willisia Genel Cochran, l:rote;cor of utatiatiicw at fYattibrd univer~ity, s:nd to was; from Glaoglov, a scot. Q. Khat was Z1iE area oL' expeLtice? 50780 9721 pl E'. Y 1( M8 .V• ..
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I 2 3 4 5 6 7 6 9 10 11 12 14. 1 J 1G 37 1& 1 S+ 20 21 23 2$ 25 10866 A. 3tatistica, had been ct,a9.cnuan of bkostati .tlcn at Fopkina. 0. Wau be an M.D.? A. 130" no. t3e was a a.atbe=ticsal statiatictaan. Q. iyas be am epidesiologiat? A. Ve was a ntaticticiari, aathe=tical atati6tician working with cNic3ecn:uiogiats gor 30 years. Q. Dit. Fami11, did you Continua to have contuctc with thu Suryeon G:enerul'G Ac+visory Committeu aftet you left the iwvitior o: taecSac,a1 coordinator he"ugc oi your ?rioslth? A. Yti:::r S.i.r.. :;,,~~i trle nut:4rt of tt;iu contact? I.. ir:fs;tu:ul. 1,410 uO:3iG -- both - wcll, yuite a fcw. a:jli tzaA rJ: c~Gl.^r dvet. • 1 ti{'ouiV YG rserlt. Yaor:e mzLt-i Yls1 Z.. uaLIC.' ~ ~ to ~.itC::k; 'i.olaF: s 3. WGLliC1n 't. i u.,c, ulz:o, o5vltsu:;1y, in tihca :,anuar}' 7ti,, ta. cIi4 conferer.ce. .: . Tl:r,;: ag:, tt)e pi Qrir. conf c rcrice aruiourici nc the : urgc:Un Genc:4i`n xuviWory ComattoP report? L. Ytl:, :;IL. 0, werc the conciur:ionS oi the Surqeon GeneraVt Aavieccy Corrr3ittea rCport, to your know3edgrr, accepted by al,i M-r.ucra af the CO=itl;f:C? A. yec s ai x. 0. Cloa dici you know tha w? A. I:¢11o we mt for uoout 45 pinutoa before tbe prESa ., . L , • . . Ln m J CO m
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1 r 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i© 11 1^ ~ 13 14 15 16 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1~~57 confrarence in an anteroom, and Dr. Terry wer.t to each person joparately and asked hiia if c:e was aaLisfiQd, was this ---- docu zhia roflect your thinking, your decizions, your cnnciu.3ionr:r and he askraci that of every single man and ho pronounced t::a;, at tno pro.~iu cor.fexance, that he had done ttiat, ar.d t1har wirhout excepr.on, uverf man agreed. Q. ,lr. Kuwi13., chapter nine iz tiao chaptar on car.cer, azzd, iri ;artzcu'.ar, iunc3 cancor. Do you kr.+aw urio wrote that final chaptUr? irr;ttt wC3ai1.j be. J' Jrart; and it WC31iC ts:rougih inZ,t:rc:IlwJiL' re•j.::ion:j a:ui soeetiw+cs a:cnoCt ttnreiogn:-ab:.u Yror tl,o - You the begirizc: ng Go ;.:IQ ei:a. I kou2d uay it w•ould noL br: rga3iy accurate to Jwy any:,ody wrote 'Canczr.r ~. Do you know who did tuo draf t, the init ial draf t7 A. I think there were two drafts. I think Len Schuman wiotu a draft and : think Burdetts wrote a draft and put it into a pot. Q. ar. Itamill, on payo P.man Aine, quote, the cocutiittee acknowledqes with gratitud© of deep appreciation t.he subatantiaI cooperation at;d a3siatance of a nuaber of peopiQ= and I would 1S.ke to ask you eom+s about eome of the poopZe mentioned tera. To:l me if you're fariiiiar vith them. Dr. Barold B. Axidarvont? S . C, .~... OFFICIAf. COURT REPORTER
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10868 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 r 1' 13 14 1S 16 17 10 19 20 22 22 23 24 25 A. Reterred to him carlier, he and Stewrtrt. He +raa the oditor of tha journal 'Canc+er.• Q. A. 0. r., 0. I.. Joueph Berkson. Who was Joseph Borkaon? Chairamn of epidemiology at Mayo Cxinic. Did 2u have connectiona and dealings with tha ccmittee? ne wrote quite a tew :,Cttera, yen. Fow about Karvin Kucct:ner? Who ira F:arvin Kuvciiner? tiarvin Ruschner is Lhe d*&n uf tLc W~-uical. :ychoo; in 5:oneyyraok. In fact, he i~ the i:E11i0f wsciicai c~rsar, in the Univursity of. l1eu YcKk ~~:yatcm, protxauly the pre-anineat or one of the two or three pre-emi:suni r:o:3 in cCLci.(1oqeLie..;~L, eAi:•criwcr.t:.l, c:,ir.ic:z~i :a tls a wvrie:. Q . E . N:io wass rac'i La ri;vf::' i3c watc the a4:.ifl; xutt.lr o:- t'ta iwu7os:: ;.a:con, :nwcJen, t~i:a iogr~j:h:c : i3.vctte boo): ofi i.ow:cco. ::r,:,rmou:ay 4'.:l.uab: -k~ rCftrCt:ce doWix $t :.iiG Jr,.YGrtl::y of VirC3ir::.&, F:iGai.'1fii2d Q~ hcweYer attA calicc:. Q. The Tobacco rr.nuz::ry fie_,enrch Comittce wur, i.r.vited oy th, :.urgraon GerYeral to uui.~:,it a 1ic:t of propooerid mewkmrr of ti4e co=ittee, or propoced cor,vu3tanL•L? A. Yot: Qean iu the i.nit.ia3 uQiectic+r:? 50780 9724 Q. Yes. A. Yow, they were one of the -- they were ostc of tUe r,ajor groups conculted, yo&. Q, And the Tobacco InduLtry ReMearch Committee brsd a rigbt t .,La . . I, . . . nnc.rTnt rnr" nrpnrTrs
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2 2 3 4 5 6 7 ; 9 10 12 '6Z 13 14 zs 17 13 19 20 :t 1 22 23 24 25 iflaa~ objecct to any uiowber o40 fiho comiaittee in being bis4©d in so:ae aays ia that csrrrect? A. Yis. They had the right, pro Eorwa. 1.14 Ta your know:ec2tjc, did the Tobacco Induct:y rte:3e.,rc:z Camuaittvo or any cf itu r:wmi:)ara. iunding mem4era objc+:t tc: any ~i t~4 wscr~ber;~ cf tar~ 5urgoor, Ganeral' g Co=t 4tee a:~ bol ny bi~.~od7 ia . ~. ai u~ s~3;:.t yaur u:idc~r,e.~adiuy waa of t~.o c~f:c~rts ~izat : i!L' al2r:aaurl :£.'f1c2Ccli t~ai1e: tG iCYbL:'e «"'uk3mtK'r:; Gf L:}E: P.a:Y:::LTC'J Ct3gtt,11tL'cG tdfist(r lao1: :J:.afiud. A. I tl ad invi::i:U GEt4CJr -- i`.t idi1:, tab: INc'1tloicJi iDct3rt .kaaoC:atiGri-s, Ps,iJ.ii.C Eiea~t'.~ A:i:.oci.s.ltionr TIM. Th3rrr were five star4rrd ofF witb about 2'J0 recoruac.•nd.3tiona ansi they aere - naraQa wero circu'latcct th-rocagi•, :.i:esQ graupo and ttsrough tho U.S. Public E3ealtb Eazvica# aer.ior 3cafl of U.S. ; ctblic gQaith Service j and looking bGtL for biau, it aomeone -- for ox"p1e, Lillienfield teetiifi¢d it was abaolutQly outstanding but he already iwbllehed ttsreo or four tirnes on sraoking and 2ung cancec. Bsa vae automaticaliy cxclude from being a s.embo: of the coramittoe. Be ia the beet rringle exaa+ple, but I stuck his undsr -- and the quality waa probably fmportant ase biaa --- as bia, ca be ascartained - as well ae can be as;cestainedj and wa vent through -- Istarted -- I came aboard right at that time. i ;;a , ; , , ,. , 50780 9725 OFFICIAL COURT P.EPORTER
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I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 zI 12 ~ 1' 34 t5 36 1^ 16 IG 20 21 22 23 25 10870 I startmd -- took those naiaeb, ctart©c3 calling people all over the countryt and thoy would give us a name, ca3: sonebody elue. I r.adar hundresda of calls on both coapetGnce tuid biaa and, also, nometiwes how would you like to vee then sit on the Ctsm=S ttee . I had all kinds: of scote cardr. and sateetst enc] Lhrn w yot down to really kind rii a sorsi-finat, a gcoup. We wonr through a few of the uer.iot -- mos:t sir.ior off:,ce:;: of the Public hcrr.2tYh offiCt, and su;. doc:n with Dr. Terty, Ur. Futlandei. who cous just rc::itinq - he wEs It;uie5ley`r: Yrc6aceLsor -- anc: went: over a11 the r,::rc.:: z::rd ;,ent out .i)v; wa::YC:fL. W:G t tl@rQ ia'1 ciCiE.'t3~;: to avoiCl :J::villt.- 40 MnbtTYSS GL Lt;C S-UL'q::on GCJ:E.''Ca3":r isCvisGry Ca73.1~.Tti.''.tee f:C".op1.(: irhSo hi1Gi .r.IJor2$ ar.c3 pUj);d is:heu ou tise ~;W.';ject fji ;UXjuk.j3g anci hoa'ti: pret•iouw2},' A . Not pe r no. sf they har: publisccc3 aj:3 hzd a Lirsa Cur.c:.sLi.one yeNt bUt not, you know -- ;1ct if tt30y Wozkea it1 tbore and thei r conc.us:ion ua3, 2 got to do a lot raorar wGri:. 0. So it it' Lair to s&y that tho Surgeon Ceneral tia: loot:ng for people who worQ qunlifiee7 but who twd not r4L:on a s:oraeai pacition on h. Precibely. ~. -- the aubjrcct of cigarvtte smoki:ng and healtb7 Cr.. L.i •. . u E, . .U. OFFiCIfsL CC?.7RT mi'Or^•TEk
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10871 2 2 3 4 5 6 7 $ 9 ie 11 12 14 +r. 16 27 2C 19 20 Y1 22 23 24 25 PrQcisQly. MR. t6'MMMIP: Your Bonor, may we t,ave a side bbr? (The following takee g3.ace at side 5at) MR. l:OfiTiiRIPs We have an objaction to this page whicl hr. DarnQ31 hau ctfered, and uy objection ics that #.t raally hAs no relevance. Dr. Ha=i11 ddor:n't revc:al any knowledge izsra ot any relarianchip with Dr. Fieser snd A. D. Littler and 1 iool tt' G not t$:!.°t'8fit. 1iR. DARI:L:Z,L: YIe13, in tezponzE. Your Eoner. I wouic point out r.lat Lr. Larili was z: pc:rson wbo vuc cYaryed with oelcctinct t•hese ixsoplu, tand thr fact that it was nts:- re•jccicd i: aii:. tl:at i3t. riesrsr r.uG wLrkcd tur Arthur U. Littlc i t2:ir,k :~ r.l,jTli~'.cz:Cttl 3accao:;iI tv2 w:~r c:c,r~cc:r:~ed wit:i ~a:as, arsi .13IE: 1:: l.:r ;.:tc c;n L•iyc cc~:i~Cc•e. -uncl iL ua,5 nctifer told to t.iL: Lrc~ :ie ~,ao »oLLeCi for h:-tt:ut U. LitCia, uao &l.:o c:id work fot Ligget.t. Mfi. :iCRTH.;IP: Rnci i.: Yaur Do7or xu] cu itc tne P1aintiLf'io favar on taiue then Iwau3.c: hnh you uf tnac pagc:. (Thc Caurt cowp'_iars.) 'rKE CO'JFiTs Any ol7jectf.on to t'Ii3t? to rQac3 :.Y.c test Tit3 CO' a: All ri.ght. yo 1011 perrait it all to be read, then. (ThQ foilowlnQ takQC place in open ccurt) .+ ui.a• ...r -. •a s • . ..,.. .
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1! IZ 13 1 << is 16 17 3E X9 L0 21 22 23 24 25 10872 MR, NORTURIP: Let rae advi.rse tbe Witnoro::, Your Honor. THE COUftTt Yes. (Off the record diecuaxion between Hr. Carlaor: bn.d t.r. tlorttsrig) Q. Tbere iB a referoncd in the document to D3c. E'icrser. A. Ye::. 0. Were you aware tl.ut Dr. Fioaor had boan a conxultant for Arthur L. Ltttle on rvork perforpeci by Ligoett & MyorL~? A. .~'Q• Q. r+'are you ever auviaec: of that by Dr. :'iQaor c:+sxing the courae of t:i- work? i:. Tli. S'1~:Gt aidr•'t t.i:.Y.r. very cuuCi:. i'Q k1f;G or ai:d iow:. t9sd tie cdvi~ec3 you o€ Mv T}rior relstiua.:.:,ip 2:Qn-ier arsc hr::iuur L`. Litt.ie? ~, e... A. know I:enaioL very wei.l..a Yru: tiidn't L.n:r.` tie isau a rc:lat.or:s},ip with '6).. Q, You didn't knorr ne had a Ye2atiohzUip witt, thrthur D. Litt;e. A. Fieser did? (;. yeu. u-toKa Cr. Piever'e participation as am,;a5er of thd, I 1:+lviuory Coamittee to the Surgeon Genfirel. 50780 9728 1..:+ . , V 1 e . . ha I~laTJ R P. T fi 7 f'.Patftllp ni'bAtlWL• Cb
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10873 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 6 9 IC 11 12 13 i4 15 16 17 is 1S 20 21 22 23 24 25 . IIigqast deal was months of research with hiis brster that hO waa goinq to tra;n &bout a million batn W:th incendiarios, goin~ to dlet them loose in 7okyo with inceru#iariee and burn Tokyo dowA. That was his --- he wac iaportant. He was irnportant regardloss of who he had roiatiorshipu with and ha aad a:ot of them. I just don't moan - he bad a lot of Q. You sre talking about Dr. rS.e:.et? , Yen. tDe Nbs reaily on the gr6unG f Ioor o: synt2:eLidin5 carCinogcns. -- p. r4r. NortnLik• rt,r:wed you EacA:, 30 Cor idcr.tifz.arion obvic:ur.3y not ;ay CjseNl:fc::,u --- ut1c: tia Ur:k.^ca 5Iou t.xr c,x not the comr:.ttee wzr.te,~ riore t'_:~,c und, nceJpd raore tiirae. Dp you r: U"e:Ai)C: L' L;'1ty--,t` r',ir e' Q . 13id tr,e co=itt.ce ever c:a:rr.owr. ~ts concerri taM;, tt:oy difl ncat r~a~~o wu£f icicn~t li:r~e 4:~ d:) ~La~qug;:c; jt~a? . Yes. IhR. hf.R:IIELL: ::xcuLsu ;ae. f,r tiLuf peCe Lrc wz now? h.R. NQI:ai;f.ZP: Pcye 149. fiR. At+Rs.ELL: Tbat. `~u the page I had a probior- wit?;, i: you' 21 recall. lQR. k.LRTHRII's I'W corry. MA. AAIi£uLi EA-Wo bor, Your 1icrior? (The folioa.xng tai:es pl.uce at uida bar) w+, • v• .• nnT" rF.rnrmP-st
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I 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 20 12 19 20 21 2° M 23 24 25 10874 HH. UAT{ii'CLL: The probia.ra I tuve here, Your 13onor, this ia the one where I inAdvertently faiied to aark an objection. The objection is that it is -- paclc. :BE COURT: t:hich page ia thizz , now? RR. UAMELL e Xt' n p$ge 139, Ynuc Goaoz, the s$cond +49, anc'i I think Your Honor uu::C.ained a siziiac objection to page 1&, and I wouitl ahow that to Your Honar, which I think the tec:tinrc,ny iu bai:4cally r:irailsr. I'a aorry, imcau;:e of Uhe 4didr.'t c*tct-h it bGfore t.r. :aarthrip ::tartied to read it. _"uE Coum: va;at's r2xc relevance of tL:.c;'e PIR. ,"`ORTI3F;iP: it goea to the cradiLiis t-! of rE••j7or;,, YJtir i+ur.oz. It's an exhibit t1.Lt k'iaintif£L :wve ~~,:t ari, they've c:f.e:-cd in cv.~acr.ce, ana it'C ciwA'.UU:: r.1hay wtrc : li:i:,WU to ti:•G~'iC Ci(JciSl:/13, a3i1rJ I tZi:cl3j: ::: at's. i:pGropri.: tt` .`Gr JLla'y tC: i:YZGk'. :tow, it lir. Darneil haU Borne payO;: to rc:a6 Lo Pu:: ;Lt I I irn c.ontext, lie may .c? iow. su be ootusi:t•ant, Your i.9aaor ru::c;i acja:r;ot z:uor.t the iucs:ti.cal dueution on page 13. 1 dvri't I;n,;~+w i Whl psge 145 srouid be read. I think it's he*.r:aey, w t::ir,4, lsia poreeption, t+ncl I ucon't remkly think it':, reievarit. Mk. 1qGFThI:IPi I thin'r, the quosticn di4 tiht. Coz=ittda wake reprec.antationc that they hac3 need for mozo time,l and vt;ether or not it't true may not be ra3.evar;t, it was the fetling of the coamittee that they were rusbt+d. It'a important ~. 4. ~ ~ . . .. OPF7CI1'.L COURT REPQRTER 5 0780 9730
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10875 1 2 3 4 5 G 7 a 9 10 '1 . ,, s i. 4 16 17 lE 1~' r 20 21 22 23 24 for the jury to know. TF3S COtjRTi x'm going to let this be read. It aay be inconsiutent with a prior ruling, but there'L also evidence that they've aluo ioad it and approved !t. MP.. DAItNF.LLi Then vo have a cligbt problcm. We neod page 150 read. The copy I got Zr:rom the rrportOt was xeroxgc: improperlg•. Do you have a copy of page 150 that's Icr:.t,ic? NR. rd01UliP.Ig a ho, I• m at r a:.d I uon' t. YR. DFMM.Ls My prubl.am is, I doi.': i.a•rc it t:erc. Ii we :aay :.bke a two necond brctal:, .~".I'y a&..U ~ 1 f:V ClItC j./a: C 1:huL' F rclevant. It'fi the very next page. MC, tx.•c;,ui;eo, to pu;. it _,23 cOr:text. ^i?E: Coi3Fi: lai rigiit. takcz. p;:ace in o;.-c:z cou:;.) FF. t;OR'rFRIP: Kay I havc wac 1a::; c,~a::~c lvr. a.,d waU'+r(:rp viU'3LC3 (f?'eGCit'c3 rl'.a(i) tifi* tN~R:'iikiP: tic' 11 just uo :.he -~s::-t uae i+ver to Nic~ up tt;e cor.tcwt. 0. Did ttie co=ittee ever expresf: its Coac4r:1 thiiL J-t t:1Ci taY' have sutf.cicrnt time to do an adeqcaate job? A. Yer3. Q. To whom? A. To tha :urgaon Gencta2, to Dr. Lundiey and to me, wtien tt wan wnounc.ed that rro had to be Lin:sbeci at. the end af t'tm year W AJ 4 . 7iL~a~f Zr.~i~. oFFICTAI, COCRT REPO r~":~R 50780 9731 ,
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 10 11 12 13 14 1rJ 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10876 RR. IK?RTL'FtIP: Your tIonor, t3iaoe trc only have one copy, I'm going to r4ad the question and answer and to tuove it along. Q, And did the fact that they made that s:tatoment affect the quality of the work that waa perforyed? The ststement to that queration, I uay no. Evetybody FiR. DRR1!ELL: Excuee aa, Mr. Nortlaip. Wou3d _vc+u ir,di,c.ant.e when your anowering c.rtd quustfonincf r* we can disi-ingu.zh it Lor tktu jury? Hr. tv0:2TUG:F: : ute. r A 3 ~.~`.~1y .. . v ri F: t h+rit.'. 4- ~ r- to Lrl..t.a.t. CsUt::t..Url t <Urlt I a ..3 r y ..~ n0. '-'vGryuvd;r ju::t h+:c to work a Little hazuat 1 ic :.'t:st rigrat, ri.? ~I1.`iJli'Li": .~.rtt-. "QU::_' r i arr ..vr ry? "nr7SN'Ep: YeE,. I3P. Page 1.74. 0. Tl,ere w3a Do:w t6GL'imony in your prior ciepocitiut: concerning tl:e CritQri3 for r.au:;aiity octab_iched by thcc Suzgeon Ceneral'e Advizory Comittae; do you re:riQar,ber that docicion, air? A, What about it? I iersaa+Ler comQtt:ing like that occurring, yes . 0. Would you agrwf witb Dr. Schuraan, that the Criteria was W u . 1 , C.v. . OFFICx1lL CODRT REPORTER
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1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 13 14 1'r iU 17 1i; 13 20 21 22 23 24 25 10877 not pore than a codificrztion of criteria that had been uaeed for some time? A. Can I isnuwer? Yee. I 0. i am cor ry? A. Y©sr I would agree with that. I yould call it eyetematic~l i but that's al.l. MR. fr3F.;URIF: Your Honor, ttlat't all. I zwve an ofEor of pcoof to make i,n some of the arpas that the Court haki ru+ed on soma arcas of tewtuaony. T:,tw C.-nUfiTi lnd do you huve another wztne;L=: ofter I M Fc. ?:ORViF:Ii': i boZiaves we havo anoti•:or i.r~ttyea~: by !rr. ?:e:uzney. YOUY lioi1JrI .7t C.:m:D < <Iie' o : 1l:e : o .(:f6:: pC'ct3.Ca:ft of ihQ uepoi:«tioli iaL roaC C~j)G1:.01]e ;:h.::. r};,): .'@.'1C' OTI tfic ~~Etl11L1~:'& CLSCf3. l+ii CGuF'•Tt r.1t right. You "y. Your Nonoc, I'd like to introciuco ::v the CourL 9-:.•. Jou, uho is Mr. I:orthrip':: gecretaryo who wiii read the eitr.e.;i~- portlonz: of the readingU. M3. WALTE&S'I Your nonor, we were not abta to deaignAtc ubjectionn in aovance on tLie d4po&iti.on, ccs we're going to 21avo to abject cs we go along. TItC C4URTs Aai right. I P.S. WALTI?RS: Are we going to begin ou p4yo 217 am ... 0 OFP I C IAS. COUf:~i` HBPORTE;R
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1 2 3 4 5 s 7 a 5 10 11 1.3 14 15 16 17 1C. 19 71 14$'Is NR. KEtJDrEYs No, we're going to begics on pagc 158. MS. piALTERSt I havo no objection to that. MR. REARiIEY s 15$, line 24 s Q. Dib your smoking habitc change Wh.lo you were ::moking Tru cigarattea? Ft. ?IO, air. tIS. t+tAG;Gt5 t Mr. ItQarney, it you would ju3t let z»e I know which page you're stoving to. MR. KEAfiZ.EI's Yac. ?'P tho Court alewt;ou, toc,. I'vo rot a cok.ry of this if the Court would Zixr to xuliow. TI1L Ct)CRT: I'd appre:ciote that. . . ... j . , ,•., ~t. .. , , ril:. RE.F.J~3«Y s 11.~.~ ~ v~ Lt~N=,. Icai t~~,,..t r: ~. . i.: w To.de 2718 line nine. ;. Could yaa Cell " Zab4ut Xuu: Dct.cnict.i flave you crrn; inuec: ta ceke 1,L-s rc;yuiLr ly wnu , a rclation6hip over the yeara7 Ln m J 00 to J W ~ 1 e •L..J r . ~ l e'• ! V t , • V • ..
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 C g ZC 11 12 13 14 I5 ,{, 17 1 (; zS) LV 21 22 25 % nepocition of Fone: Cipollone 1087 We are very close. MR. RLARi•;CF: Go to Fage 180. Line 13. is che a heavy smoker? A Not in front of ine. w Over the years prior to the time that you contracted the i.ilness; that you alleget3 is cuused by smoking, did she not amoke in front of you then? A Yes. tle su:oked torett,er. 0 SJas she a heavy cmoker during those ti:aes? A She crnoked i ike Lie. t4e smol;ed. We had a cup of coffee. t;e played cards and we mot:Fd. C I believe you oaia your cister Thonasina started srokincr at eome point? r1 1'e i: . ~ i~3JE you mz~].:'iLkitlf'G C ClO-,2 tGi~t~Gfls~h» with 11et over the year:4? A S'en, C, ItooF -:hC rL2i1 C-mJke? A S'et.. Are her craok;.i:; bc::~stv siz:iiar to what you dercril~*c: aL r yours? ~i Y e n . {~ now often do you sNe her i A tiaybe once a rcouti: or cometir.iec A,ore often. :om etim rs less. Ln ~ J co B ~ J W Cn PIiIrLLIS T. LL't;TIS. CtSRO OFFICIAL COURT RSPORTf:R, t0i'MM. LiJ
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I 2 3 4 5 6 7 0 S :.0 11 12 13 ?1 22 ~ '' 3 24 A Deposition of Rose Cipollone 10080 Did your brother Thomas at some point start sraoking? Yea. Q Bave you maintained a relationship with him? A Yes. 0 How often vould you say that you see Thomas? A Every couple of mnnths, that is all. Q Have you ever talked with your brother Thomas about smoking prior to your illness which you allege is relate6 to cigarette moking? A Not that I can remeraber. 0 Doec he still emoke7 A Yee". Q i'.ow would you Ze:-cribe his Eraoking haG:.tc? 1: P.eg4ldr I gue3n. C= T+oout tne same ar.iouct as you vr•.~oke7 A I don't rca11y icnow what other poople wou1L ao that r.wc'r.. They =,cf:e. w 'lust use j our best judgment. It That is my best judgment. They s*.:ol:e. ; .~,-id you ever smoke irn the prevence of your no;,her^ A Yey. I did. Q What vaU her reaction to that? A She was thought it was disgusting. Dhe thought it war unladylike and she didn't like it at al:. (~ Did she ever tell you any other reasonz wt;y you PHYS,LIS T. LE'riIS, CSR~ OFFICIAL COURT RwP'C3RTER, h~..'Fi«RF', .
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 10 11 t2 13 14 15 1C 17 ? fs 2 •i 25 Deposition of Roue Cipollone 14681 shouldn't smoke? A No. Q Did your sistere and brothert ssoke in front of your mother? A I don't knov about a:y brother. I know my older sister did. Q Page 232, line ten: Did your huuband's father smoke? A Fle had srnar.ed f or awhil e. Q P.ad he quit before you raet raira? A t•3o. fle was sMokinq uhen I met him. Q When did he c_ruit? A I can't Give you the year. ,1 Do you know of any occ:2::ion that cau;,ea hit: tc qu_t3 A Yes. He dvvelo;-c:d 3clhraa aad c:a;:nyse.aa. u Do you reca:2 i:i:> cate o:' d€at:.? A ttovenbc:r 13, 2S71. C! raow long if _rcti can 4~jtrti me an app-rckil:+f.tion Y,ae. lie l,aa ast•hma and ercphy_e:^.a prior to his uesth? A A few yeor:. I c0:,`t S!iVe yOL tt:e c::act nuNbcr ot years. 0 Dici he attrit,ute the asthma or e:nphy:.~emII to his sr::olcin;? A Yes. The c3octors told hitt lie uhosldn't smoke becuusc he i,ad gotten emnhyseraa and tbe asthma. 13 e 4idn.'t have the aEtinza before. It aevelol:ed v,.,hen he was old. Q So he cqu.t snoking?
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1 \ 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1a 1C 17 .: 2 25 Deposition of Rose Cipollone 10882 A Yes, he did. M3. WALTERSs I have an objection on relevance grounds to the next four lines. "TF3E OaUP."'s I'es. Sustained. Nine through 13. lR.A. F.EAR*1EYs If I may be heard briefly? TF3E CJ`3RT: Yes. (The following takes place at side bar.) MR. F:CAfi'c:?TM', Y: I wouid suCmit that the reference by ;+.rs. Cipa2lone in the deposition to papa wao very de;.ermined 3.n rerpQnsc• to a question ahout, do you know if he saw it or obtained proiessional help in q4ittinc,, certainly gives evidence of l,er state of Ainc~, namely, that a petcon who is Gcter yine6 can ytor . c:r:oEir.r without seeking profestional nelp and certuir:ly :ier ztate of r:uind with revpect to hpr pe:v:Wiv~ly a:-Jiaity to r,uit smokinh ii~ ar, inr-uf that has bcen in ts,is ca;;e. tt ir:k tt:at nFcesr,ar:3y aetermines her state of a'.nM. '..e uon't know what it uE'terilines. Etit t'cce isrue is whether it ii; relevant. c~';,c :::~er anybocly else in her famil.y had diff iculty giving up smo):ing or not. We tr.ied to c:zaw cut throu,,:i r.rs. CiFol3one'c con the reason wny he hud trouble 5it•ing up smoking and it aac barred. I think your L'a7or to be consictent has ruled l0 J W CO
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1 2 3 4 5 G 7 8 9 1:~ 11 i^ 13 19 "sQ 21 22 23 24 25 Peposition of Rose Cipollone 10883 whether people have trouble giving up smoking or not is irrelevant. M. Y~.'A..R';'EY: This ia her state of raind. '"his ia the person - the plaintiff in thiw case claims was !aecau;;e of her state of mind and the state of mind she waL in for a variety of reasons they point out, that she could not atop. She aaa not able to stop. Nere, aree is; aayir,-; that a person need not c;o to proressional Uelp i_ t~:e•,+ arw deter!ainec er.ou,h to 3toh amoking. T:3E: CJU :T: She r7oesn't really say it. T:.uUmit an iazerence cou1u i.Q CpU,~•,T: 1 will sustatn ttie objection an chFs gzCl:nC3;i "- ~'R. 7ZLF:u:';31': Put it on the record. '!Jn CCUa'.". -- rAce 233, lines 9 tt:rouc;n 1_-- ar.J I am sustaining the ob;ection becauae I do not think it i3 relevant that othrcrs were able to quit and I do not tnir.K it goeo to her ztate of mind. Even ii it does, I think that the l:re;ui:ice of showing her father was able to quit outweighs the lim.itsd probative value. H.,, kAL:'ERvs I aasume that that ruling will stand for Thomas Cipollone. There will be tevtimony about him further on. We can probably kill two birds with ono stone. TtiE COUtiT s To be consistent unless there is a PPtYLLIS T. LL•'I4IS, CSR, OFFICIAL CODF.T REPOP.TER, MRARR, tiJ
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DepoEition of Rose Cipollone 10864 Z 2 3 4 5 6 7 s 9 10 11 1^ 13 14 1S 16 17 1s 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 reaaon why it should go to t4R. Kr^.IRtIEYs Thomas Cipollone testitied here, brought itere by the plaintiff and if there is information that i3, I sucruit, infor:natfon here may very well be relevant to his credit;ility or Rose's, and I rua entitled to put in evidence why zose Cipollone is not here at trial to r,o to her eredibility, the credibility. Ta.: CCURR' i .a a. . we get to it, let us deal witiY it. (:.nc of siie bar.) Q Did vour huoband•c siator Lina CipollonP Simeone aT1oke? A t:o. Q Did shz talk to you abcu} your =oi:ing? ir i3U. 0, Did his ctr.er yi.;ter Antoinette smCke? 11 *Ia. Q Never aj far an you know? A i1o. C Did she ever talk to you about amoking? A Wel3, rhe used to sometime3 say in Itslian, oh, you aze always smoking. q Did she tell you you should stop? A Yes. She used to say but not in specific times or every time, once in &while on occasion. We never got along too well with Antonette. I didn't even remember he had another sister. We juot were too different in personalities. She PVYLLIS T. LEWIS, CSR, OFFICIAL COURT P.EPORTER, rIEWARR. NJ
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 le 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Deposyition of Rose Cipollone 106@5 is very old-fashioned. Q Do you recall generally the tirne period that she was telling you that you should quit smoking? A I think when we fi rct met. Q That would be around 1946? A '46, yes. Q Did che say it mignt be bad for your health? A tJo. Q Did she give you any reason why you should c;uit? A No. She ju: t :;aid in Italian you are always smoking or eamethirrg to that effect. f;R. MARNEy: Page 251, line 18. G You mentioned in your tez~ti!aony this morning I believe the vora^, you upec's were that you took a vow to read vory brc;,7 A t7her: I was aAid, ye:>. I wris very yourt,. :ii3t is when : k'an ir. r,ramraaT ::choGl. Q Can you te? I. r,:e way you 'r,app`necc to :eel co ztrcngly r about rea6ir.g vE•ry hrohcly? ~'. tiel], wher~ I lerurrieG now to read, I was very young and it ct.arted with fairytales in first gradc•, and it opened up such a vonde r f ul wUr 1 d f or me. I thought f t v.ab so fascinating that I started to read and I read as many books as I could. And when I got older and joined the library as a i.e+r, ^t+srnV2a nelttflM L1aDrio+R«o " P!•'% AS.' - 1JZ
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 20 21 22 23 '4 Y 25 Deposition of Rose Cipollone 10886 chi.ld, I thought I would be able to read every booL in the library and I started with the A's. I think there is som.ething spectacular. I was child. Q But you continued to be dedicated toward reading? A Ses, I aa a dedicated reader. Q One area that you mentioned this worning you said you read science books. Could you be a little raore specific for me in the ty-Le oi science books that you read? A I can't really be specific. I conridez Vational CeonrapYtic a science type r.oo'r., magazinr, ocience fiction, ma<;4zir.eU, Grani aagaxine# science ficti.orn storiet, sciPnce cooks, if it was wparticu3ar2y ir.terwstint, ::ubjec*_. I tell you, I renci and I have read and I read vl:':3tG'vCt'. : orae'times ire.c+d a bcpok wi}:E tt;•:It `s]ecc:JGH I 11ad Ltoii3ti23cj E°lwe to ret:C. ^ T:id you hare occz4r-.inn to rc::d book2 oii A t3at really. r) Cheuiistry? A o,- ometiAe a. Q i<You1d it be fair to say that you hac a particular intereEt in science Articlew as op'po:aEa to other type of literature? A t1o, I read every kind of ? iterature. C Syould you particularly have an interect in the ::cience v-vr.t.Yq _2_ LE49IS. CSR. OFFICIAL COURT REPOR'MP., tW,;AR::, 113
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 1G 11 i? 13 14 iE 17 3C 39 20 ''1 ~ 2'' ~ 23 24 25 DeNoaition of Rose Cipollone 10867 article in a lay magazine? In other words, if you would see a science article in a lay =gazine, wou2.d you be more likely to read that article than another article? A I read all the articles in a magazine. 0 You r•.entioned that you would from time to time go to Atlantic City on bus trips. Who would go there with you? A My husband. 0 Can you c3escr ibe: to rae how often you would go on these trips to Atlantic City? A Since we used to go to Atlantic City when rTy children were nr:a12 and tt:nt was before tney built their catinos. It is a resort. It's a twautiful beach anG ocean reE.ort, so At%antic City is not new to me. tig a1wav4 wont th_re on vacaation, take the :;lhildren ti-zere for a few da: c. Then when :!:ev buil;t the casinos tic cont_nue6 to co more or 3esr orn a ciay tr ip tiroulc; be, go on the bur; in z: e ut;,r::inc;, sta,, * iew hcur:; anc comr :x,ei: ir, the ever.inr. ; S::jen you were ao+_na on tne da.• tripz, weLe you going to the ca :inos or c,oin_: to the beach or what? A lae wouir) go to the r.azinos an:3 uali: the t;oards. 0 ~Ji;ile you Nr•re at car;ino~; did you gaxnle? A Oh, yes. C t•11iat were your fs.vor ite gazireec? A alot mchine:. tIP.. F:Yi 255, line 15. vuvt.f.TC *r. t,F??ZS. COP.. OFFICIAL C'OUR'+' P.EPOKTER, *d£KIAF:K, M i
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Deposition of itose Cipollone 10880 1 Q Do you play other gamess than the clot mnchines? 2 A OccaEionally. 3 Q What other games do you play? 4 A Once in a rare while roulstte. 5 Q You ment ioned on your tr ip to Cala if ornia you stopped in 6 Las Vegas? 7 A !'es. 8 Q Cid you gamble on that trip? S : A k Yes. What gantes uid you play in Las Vegas? U i2 A Q 810,14: muchinec. elny otr.eru? 13 :.~' C C i6 u ou sw o!:e whie e you were g2 a•; i n i~? IJ 16 t ::ot any r:ore. ^:;: you then wher you were going to Atiantic City i 1_7 t: Y^E. 1~a Q wot21d you :'.molte IlG)ZC' or le is oet::ei thai1 noCT.".rti ti1i iZe you la were p1a1'lzS? 2C A I t!: init I cmokeu imore. I$lwrsyc had the cigar e t::r• znc: 21 the uahtrtay. 22 Q Did you chain-s:soKe while you were gambIinr? 23 T never really tt.cuaht about it. I just smoked. 24 Q Did your daughter Ma r ia ever smoke? 25 A 'Jo.
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 14 ]. 5 16 i7 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Deposition of Rose Cipollone 108es Did she ever talk to you about your amoke? A I don't know: I don't recall. 0 You don't recall or did she ever suggest to you that you snoal dn't smoke? A I really don't. I am being honest. I don't recall. Q Does your son Thomas still swoke? A tJb. Q When did he quit? A Quite a while ago. 4 Can you give me a roore de_inite uate? A I can't give you a date. I know he hau gone to Dr. Lowy Lor a checkui, and Dr. Louy asked hir. if he szrol;er., r,n; he sa:,4 and Lr. i.ory sa:d well, you s;loular,'t -s^.:oice, unc raybcy he neara ~,o=ctl,ing ar.d Idon't i;now why ':.`om Q L?ar, that t7efo:E you were uiagno:=EC:, before you hac: a prublr:m you brougnt t'raic. Zaws4it aheut? ~. Ca, yes. tS" L31:L"_'ERc: I ansurae you are not caoinc, to reao any:aore. In any evenr, I have an ob3ectior, on the Eame cgrounds as earlier to lines 17 t'r,rouc+n :3. Hr. l;L.tiRra:Y: I have the c,wne re5ponse I had an the lart one. "E CODF:T: I will susta:.n the objection as to the lines for the record 2f7, 17 through 23. ~ m ~ co m PflYLLIS T. LEWYS, CSRf 4FFICIF.L Cc:JRT P.F.FORTEF, !?ES1MR, t33
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 13 14 i5 16 z7 Ii i 9 20 21 22 {i "3 24 25 Deposition of Rose Cipollone 10890 MS. •aALTERS: Are you starting now on Page 291? MR. i CA.RflEY: ces. MS. tdALTEP.S: Judge, I have an objection to this whole section which goes from Page 291 up to psrgs 323. TSE CQJP,Tt What? KS, tcAi.TERS: I have an objection to the enti re section that goes from puge 291 up to 323 and maybe we could -- I could suiticrztize it briefly. TL'E CCt)F.T: I will :ee counoel at side bar. (The fo1lcwing takes place at side bar.) ai2. EEtLL: if I ttay mFe a cugrection. Oa}e of the ;:roblens we are having is :x•cau-e we anticipated a live witnESs as opposeo to rcading tnis afternoon bQcauve the Iive w:tries-, Uas herF to take ni-e ' GE'z)ocition an3 we were ur.ciEr the ancuu.r rion he wau roint; to ;)e put on the st.and. ^•`ihi.^, ir a~.ide :rou, t:ye objectionc beinc pc,ied in t}:ics. ''.bot ir- c:c:pwic}ativc of that %i;lich h&: G1rea:.i;-* beerr r ePd Lnto eL itJeace, ct tLle rC•r;uL:::- of the CiEfenSdar.tE in r1i3r.y instance:. I thir,r, to :wc~litatc tne reauinc of thi.^n c?eposition, we chould L)e given the opportunity to - the opportunity to pre;t•r.t to the Court where we think the evidence i3 &ireuciy introduced and bow it is duplicative and proceed with the kitness' testiscony we anticipateC today. I cor.'t understanG wnere we are being placed in the
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1 2 3 4 5 t 7 0 9 10 10691 situation of going through a long protracted reading o[ Mrs. Cipollone's deposition without the opportunity to really present to the Court where we believe it is duplicative. ;LR, P:: AAr;EY: Let ae reapond. •?udge. I gave Mr. Mdell and lSs. 'Aaltera a copy of the prorosed reac:ingn aome tirue ago, probably nix weeks or ore. m I *t wsa anticipated that and at different pointz in ti:ne of the trial we tE:our,ht we would have down ti::e, we sugqe--te,i sae wous d reau it. ~N tha~ t~r~n wvo nriV;-od aria LF"t13 'sltt3 -m anV '/7F"e i:~ y i2 13 14 15 16 17 1s 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a;o :;y ,.„ Waatcti what t:.ey wanted to do Was r3ise objectiUnz whi;e we were reading the dei~oeitiorj. They hacd a:apl~ opportunity, f' th,.y chose to seek prior ra:i;i•;s on ab;c:ctfonc to do ; recinely thac. I would oblect to the interruption oi the reading on tnin- - t.herefore on this procedural requeet. "TR. LDEL;.: I wa3 advised on Friday -- if we went till Friday - I get ray weeks miaed up -- that they were goi;Zg to call Mr. Cu1.lman back to the stand, I spcrnt all weekend preparing for Mr. Cullraan and *is. Walters spent all weekend preparing for the live witnesn. I was informed yesterday that Mr. Cullman would not be called and then to proceed with the deposition of the pIdYLLIS 3'. Lr-WIS. CSR, OFFICIAL COOItT REPORTER, tlE:•IARr, t7J
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1 2 3 4 5 6 31 115 ti? 1L I c 10692 witness we were going to call today. We only have so much in rerms of people to work on these things. We are not trying to impede Mr. Rearney's reading of the deposition, but on the other hand we were led to believe that this morntng initially was going to be Mr. Cu1lu,an, and then it was crianv_ed to taking the depocition of the other witncssc, and then after tne deposition was L*ing taken - that is why we took it thic morning - he was going to be put on the witr,e5s nt8nd. To put us in thic Fltuaticn is not fair and highly krejudiclul. !:R, fF.AR:'w:': I c'or.'t thin i: it is a r1a jo; prohiem s: Mr. Eciell sua, itz it ir, Pir:t of a1;I, I ur:;:erstcod la:~t r:ioa;; it was tl-te intention we wnuld;ic u:l. 4he rhaeAngs on ^ue: Uay r'ornihc. B$cnurL &t taat U11it ble worc af t!:e un;:ervt,an;:in:,;, ,ryh uiiuerstanding that _., mE. EDEL:i Tl:at':- nat correct. E.R. #'.CARt:CI': -- rr. Lauciu::' ;iepoicition would go 21 i4 or,. N.P.. EDrLL: tai ;5 „r . Cui iman woulci be on th e s5tar.d. Rn. F3M?L'Y s I --- 2m. T3aI-mir.2Pz I said to E':r. Edc•ll last week we may read the depositforts Friday. Ln m ~ CO m kD J ~ CO PEYLLZS T. LMZS, CSQ, oI'FYCIA*.. C1UF?T REPORTER, tlEt'tARR, NJ
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 14 i 5 2G 17 20 21 22 23 24 25 10893 N:R. EDELL: Then I was told never mind, r.R. nARam I would think our intention is to get this deposition read and out of the way in the next 15 stinutes. There is really not rtuch left and then the live witneca to go on. I•IR. PA.RRI5f!e Dr. Laucius is here, ready to go when the depoEition i ; fi.nishec:. N.R. EDCLLs The problem is they are going to reread for may 5e ttse second or third time testimony already in the record. 't''IIC ..v'JR^.'s There should not be any rereading. if it it in, it sh:,ulc3 nQt be reread. ;},R, ;;r}tr,Nx;y= I'v only rcreacing the one and I am. prepar^ci to ar t_jue. and that is at the very enG, that that :s neie;,sary here, in order to put t"'e reading into cortext 1~ec4uae oi tla brea~:e:p of the -- :.,ecause of t:,e break ur of t•IiE` 6epo:.x*_ior,, rxs it c:tas reaci t,y y1aint:.f£, there s v one eec*_iora that I bei ieve neei: to Ihave -- necdr to be rere3c: 4. o ,r,ive a time se sucr.ce. That iv the only one I am, aware of. I am prepared to uenone,trtate that. I have tr,E deposition as it uav reuu in on plaintiff'c cese. IIR. PD~3.Ls I aA not necessarily say ing tnat the prQcic.e question and the precise respon3e was given previourly but, for examrle, if you look through here you t7al!,
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I 2 3 4 5 6 7 e 9 10 11 2L 13 14 .q 16 37 f + 19 ^1 ~ 22 23 24 25 10894 will see a question lil:e I know we have gone over this before but isn't it a fact that so and so. KS. WALTEFtSi The novena issue. MR. EDELL: That is going back in. KFt. I:EARHEYs The novena issue is the only one that has been read, and I will demonstrate to the Court it is necessary to read one page to put it into the perspective that is tied to the coughing issue and that is not. TIIE COt.t~,Ti I am interested to expedite it. There are objections. Y want to rule on thew, but I cio not want to - in every other inctsnce with the dEpouitions, I have been notifieu of the objectior., read them and rulec: on ti,em, and that is what we ought to be doing. ,11R. MELL: WE anticipate~ to provide the Cc;Lr t ti:itis it COniG:1t. T':e taliC~.'C: t1:aout it at ll3":c11. `~ Pt •.~IJ~'~': Tr,e t:zine~ I con't under^tand, 7,:r ~`.a~• '~Fr. ... not going tr~ go over Mr. fiezrney'r arLursent sbout hcra 1cnc.; "s. Wal.tern knew we werc, coing to reac3 tte de_r.o:-ition. iNy point is =f tf-liy ab3ectihn was cofnS to Le rairea, Frby wa: n't it rai:,Ed betor.e we almost got fir.i::lied with the deposition? If we otor tt.is uepori tior. rcauing now, it is yoinc, to be confusing to the jury. '_'t': ycing to be a.;reater waste of tiue if we have to corne back. We are alraost f inictied. I aon't understanc: why we can't go on. PF.YLLIS T. LL~'IS. C: R, (.`Fi ICIAT. CADRT REPQRTER, ?aE<mI:I'ti. ?z-T
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10895 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 MR. lCEAF.tIEY: Ms. Waltecs gave me counter dersignationa I have been reading and I have had them for wQeZt3. ti5. kAi.:'ERS: I aavieed you at that time I had nuaerouc objections to the vast bulk of what you were reading. The reacon we didn't designate objections and give you the transcript in ac:vance is becaus:e your procedure has only been recent. T;e didn't realize you isrere aoing to read the last two, Dr. Lee and ryz. Carluccio'st until the end of lant week ,vou the t~?. ED::LL: ^'here huU been destire.ction_ of innumerGble wi:nESsefc in ca:.e. !'or the dcrendan:s, to no« suCg£::t we sruuld have an6 we thought we st ili baci ti :+e to do it and hand tran:~-ript tonight. been able to prezer,t a:1 t:.e~e objectior.s Nia: wee:s sgo or lu 19 two or three weeko ago, Ne have k*enn wori:in.; kith the tbree-day rule. 20 ZSF'.. i3Lw nus:LrThey will have the su::e prabler,: 21 toraorrow. We are gc.in5 to reat tomorrow. 22 TH:E CaJRT: You are? 23 I:1R. IZOR7"ilF:IF: Prob.3bly, 24 Mit, I3LE1UtLEYi t'e have three =re deposition:. and 25 plair.tiifs know exactly who they are and who their --..~ . -- - . r..... n r n In r,xat+Tf, -t.q M'1RT RF`AAR^."1'R. 1:T'Sy11T?P,. 27z
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 13 24 i5 xY 1 V ~ 19 20 4 ^1 22 23 24 25 10096 designations are and we knar exactly their counter designations, Carluccio, Lee and eoward. msp. VtALTEREs The Judqe already looked at Dr. Lee becauEe we were notified last week. tSR. EDELL: I will provide you with our gpecif ic designations on Howard. I am working on that as we speak. ttS. WAL:FRS: This ne=t group of objections here, every single yuestion that is asked of Mrs. Cipollone in this section, which is sozme 25 f,ageb, covers the health history before '61, goez: to her ga21L-]zdder surgery. Ri.l of it is totally irrelevant in this case. *5F. ,.;A :M'Yr t!y response is that it is relevant ir. a r.umbcr oi reErects. Fir::t of a12, uurige, I believe it is reyevant to ci4*mnne trate to thi~ jury the nmnount of contact tY,at Cipol.lonE: ;iad with the health profession4ls throughout th~.~ year_-, Ix,th r,hy:;icixn:.~, howp itale anG so on. F'or two purr,e.es, one, it ic relevant tc tne claim .n thi;, case that t:r£. Ciaollonc: wat: induced to buy the cigarettes becau.>e of Ligget.t adverti.siny, whi::h says, 'uust what ttie doctor ordereu." We're going to thir.k it re.evant to demonrtrate that this woman knew where she could get cuedical aci:•ice, contact with doctors. TF3E CUUfiTz C&n't we no it wftbout going ir.to PHYLLIS T. L.V'W*S, CSR, OrFICIFiL COURT REPaRTER, i:EWA1?R, :3J
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I 2 3 4 5 6 10897 ailments that have no relevance to the case? MR. REARx.SYs Let me continue. Throughout the period - in this reading there are ques3tiona with respect to a number of doctors ::he vicited, whQtber or not che spoke about ctaoking and i,ealth. In nomQ Dr. Politto she said she did, othEre she didn't. L ? << ic 17 22 23 24 25 we are s`timitting that to c:eraonttrate that not only did she have access to the medical co:yiunity and advice with respect to cigarette snoking -- M5. YLUTERas :'hat is a fE:pnrate :ection of the objection. MR. NE~,~"tNY: That _s inter:.~~rsed. 'SS. j;isLTPrr : UCt o7 theSC : a!7ez:. .. .~, ~ - •,.. ''?'t?E C:~:JS?: s the prc;tslc~ :s t:a pr-uct i caa proble~. zf there are going to be objections I k•ould :ike to uea3l with tiscm.. What do you sugyC'st? C.R. s 3udce, arc you roir:: to take ar, afternoon break to(3a;r? T°!E COURZ'^s We11, I gueuE so. rut are you te:.l.ir.g me that you want me to read it durin~, the t;reAE:? ?'s that what you are saying? i•iR. fi.EhP.NCY s'io, but it wil2 give us a wo-ment to
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 13 1J 20 21 22 23 24 25 1089C tfiink about it. T)IE COURM: Un?ess you think you are aeriously and adversely affected by interrupting it, my auggestion would be that you put on the live witnesc, do what we bave always done with the c:epoaicions, give rne the objections and I will rule on it tomorrow so you have them tocrorrow. How long is the Sowat-d deposition? l4R. BLt_AFCLEYs Fairly long. Maybe an hour, an hour and 15 pinutes. t3R. EDRLL: t<ot that long. THE COJR'-rs It is a question of hoW much tirne I have to read it. Nr. t:3o idea. Thcy know what tht ciozir,natior,c are. ^IM:: CC'?.:7: Let uz tz:ke a brea.i: And see ii you can't rake this uay & i.:..tio mort.• e:ffi:.ient. (i:r:a of lc:ic:e.~ bar.) "'Ri:' C^t'R:': t4e:al-crs of the jury, fn an attfl;::pt to sl:eti*a up the 1xccN::sr we are going to take our recess now and re:3ure at t.ree o'clock. E.12 rise tor ti-,c ;ury, please. We will :eGllme at three o'clock. (rP.cess tc'1keR. ) VR. KCFzP,;Ey: A.t trie tirae we will Eusperid the reading of the deposition to have your t3onor look at the PIIYLLIS T. LEW.Sp COR, oFrICZAL Cx?URT REPORTM, NE:QA.ri:, NJ
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10899 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 0 10 11 12 13 14 15 17 Ir 15 ?.0 21 22 ^3 ~ 24 25 objections. Could we instruct the jury that we are cuspznding it to put on the doctor? tSR. ED£LG: Then we object, your Honor -- no we don't. THE COURT= All right. THE CLERE: All remaining stanaing. (Jury present.) TfIE COURT: Please be seated. E:embers of the jury, we are going to susornd the reading of the deposition of Xrs. Cipollone, co we ca^ ca11 a witnesn to the stand and that is with the cormcnt of all of the uttorneys. tsr. FirricgE? !SR. SIE:?~~ti;~: T-"e ca21 Doctor J. :,rcavrioti :,aucius t c the stand. And, your Eoncr, we alao have jury Linciert. T'lr CO;S:::: All ric;ht. The clascic jury binuErF,. (BinaerL are hanGed out to the sury.) `I'fir. GG;Ir^: Swear in the witnesc, please. J 0 S E P i1 FR E D£R I C R L A U C I U S, having been duly swern, testified as Fo1lowst PHYLLIS T. GE"rIIS, C-c'R, CFFICIJIL COURT REPORTER, IIMIAPM, t.3
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10900 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 15 1; 17 TiiE ci.ERR: rlease be Eeated. State your name and spell your last reame for the record. TIIE 11YTt+ESS e J. Fr ede r i c!c L-a-u-c--i-u-s. THE COTJR'.'s Iir. Sirridge? HR. SIF?IDGEs Thank you, your Honor. DIRECT EY.At:Ir?ATIQt3 BY PIR. S IRRIDGE t Q Dr. Lauciu;=, ?,ow old are you? A Forty-eix, 0 Ar.d what is your profession? A Z aat a physician zpeci.aizinc :.n r•e6ica1 oncolor;y. Q What .is medical oncolory? A :'be diacnosi:: r,nd ;-reatraent of :aaiic_;nant tu.{,u:a. Q Itr. Lauciua, 4re you here a:.; ar, expert witnezc to give your oi inion about the diar_.I-sozi;; oF Mr:. Cir•o11on.? Yes, I arr. 223 ^ Where did you go to uncerorc-,'~uate school? A ".'hat`s Swertrr,rore Cclieqc in _aart!:'iuore, F`nn6yLtiania. Q S~hat kind of an degree did you .;et? A Kachelor or arts with zma;;zr in cooiog;r. 0 And w•hEre dia you go to raeui.cnl school? A I went to Thoawt uNFiersor. Gniversity IlediCal College. Q And what is your present poLition? Ln ~ J ~ ~ PCYS.LIS T. LEt;IS, CSR, OFFICIAL COOR'T RFPt?RTRR, ?dLZI14F.P., 2•'.~7
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 16 16 17 ,s iG ?C 21 23 24 25 Laucius - Direct 100101 A I am attending physician at three different hospitais, practice medical oncology, the hospitale are Thomas Jefferson L'niversity in PhiladQlphia, Methodist PoEpital, which is also in Philadelphi8, Nazareth Hospital, rilso in Philadelphia. Q And is your position connected with a medical school? A Yes. I nm on the faculty of the medical school, which is ThomaL 3esferson Vniversity t4e6ical College. Q Let re ask you where you got your medical training after you got your medical degree? A Wken I 5raduatea from rnedieal school in 1:67, Z was with what is nov, a F3-1 which at the time was called a.n intern, at Pi:iladciP•hia Oener4: F:ocpital in Philadelphia, I-enn<,;•1 variia. ; After tijat i::ternrhit:, w:.ut 'Kind of training 6iG you aeL? A Az the ciuve we were •_`ir,; tinc; the war in Souttaeas t hsia so : got trairaing in the lir,itec: States Army. C What l.znc of cau:ies and rtifiponsit~ilities did you have in your role with the I3rsited, sttates Ar:ny? A At t:ie t i me we aere figatinc; the war in 8outhea: t I was aasignEd to the Republic of South Vietnas, 1st Infantry Divir;ion. Firot sfx months were an infantry 5attan ion and r:y second Eix raonths vas the clearing 3tation, PE?YLLIS T. LE0ISt CSRo OFFICIAL OOQRT REPORTEP., iMiir1P.F. tv'J
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Laucius - Direct 10902 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 2G 17 1E: 13 20 21 24 25 which would be a craall group of four physiciEans. Q What kind of raediCbl work did you do in that role? A Predominantly emergency work. Q Did you receive any honors when you were in the Army? A Yes, I did. Q And what were they? A Received four honors in Southeast Asia; a£ilver Star, two Bronze StarE and a Purple Heart. ; Q And when you returned from the service, did you continue your training in medicine? A My second year I spent at Cook Army Flocpital, and ther, I I f inichei that and becalne & re2ident at Tho-mas JeftFrson Hospital as a medical reliclent. Qlhat 'r.ir.L of resider.cy wav. tnat? A It ws-2 a residency at atudying acuit ciiceGac:.; nnn-:>uryic4l treatments of aszu3.t ui3ea ,er-,. C' Coua-d you ci4scriao for t.Ine ?ury a~: ittle bit about T:omas JeLferso.^. Univerrity f3oapiti.-I. Yihat F:ind oi an in:Litution is it? A Tvell, the rn:•r;ictl coliege Gnu the hospital is aFr,()-bed hoapital attached to a rae4ical rcraool, takes care of IV tient=~. Q 4xay? A It supports research, teaching, patient care. Q Okay.
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 74 15 16 17 1F. 1J 20 21 22 23 24 25 Laucius - Direct 10903 Do you have offices in the hoopital? A In the hospital itself every other floor is physiciana and offices and the other floors are patient rooas. Q After you conpletea your residency in internal caedicine, what kind of traininq did you pursue? A Tren after a year of r.iedicine, I took a year of medict+l oncolory, which was -- that waE the first year was done at Jefferson, and then I was asked to be chief resident at Jefferson and I was chief resident in medicine, and thern the following year I was at the Institute For Cancer pesEarch, American Onco].ogy I:ospital, in Phiiadelpbia. I tooN a second year fellowMbip. 0 t-3hat is the Amer ican Onco? o,y Flo:.pital? A American Cncology roupitaL? n' Yc:S. It A cancer cvr.ter. Cncc o&LY,c .I4rlc~r cti2terf3 of Pr:ilaae'_phia. Q Elhat about the Institute For Cancer Research? A taull, there is no pari-ant care. "•'hat is the research arm, rto4t of t. e 1aLroratory research. () Whi1e you were there Lic you do research azd c>ee r.atiHnte? A Yes. "'he E-econc7 year we were a fellowship, predominantly a research - stuc4c to very specif ic tumor typee instead of taking all kinds. ~ ~ . Ln kJO nT ~ T T!_ 2,1WJ1RE. 2/.3
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 14 i5 16 17 10 iC; 2U 21 22 23 24 Laucius - Direct 10904 Q Doctor, why did you decide to be a medical specialist in cance r oncol oc?y? A I cane back from the service, I spent a year at Aberdene in the Army and there I•ras ametlical officer and they were short doctors and I was taking care of histo medical patients, and it turned out I kneu a fair amount about all aubjects, excet t medical oncology and soraetimes when you start with basics, it turns out to be the mosr fascinating. Then when I was a resident, the EsaAe thing happened. it was a time of intellectual explosion as far as treatraents. The biotechnology revolution occurred, esrx:cially rn me4ical oncoiogy. ~ Could 1 ou c`x;scr ibe to the jury what you uo on a daily De: cribe your currar,t ;aedical practice. A i7e11, I have tvro ar-sociatea, two partnc•rs. So we hrve a three-i:tarn grc•uF!. t,;e have an act3ua^ici11:5• nos:pitai practice anc; we havc teachinc rurr-•onw:bility. My year varier accorc3ine; to what ;:chEdule I have. In ger.cr ul I see LatiEnts on llonda}°c anc Fridayr. at JefferFpn, Tuc•cciuy an4i Weunecd9y at Mazareth. TY:ux:ciay I got Lo bave sore fun. I just take care of hospital patientc and attend teachinq cor,:erences in the morning. Once or twice a year I am teaching attendant and 25 _,:±Yy'4't.l-IS T l.Et•77P. CaP.. OPFICIAT, CGURT RM, RTER, tiENARF:r Z.3
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Laucius - Direct IQ9dS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 C 9 10 11 12 13 14 1? 19 23 2E 25 4hen I have to take care of not just cancer patients but all patients. Q Doctor, are you board certified? A Yes, I am. Q in what medical areas? A Well, the first is American BoArd of Internal Medicine and the aubspecialty of inedical oncology. Q How do you get board certified in both of those? A You have to take training and your chief of r.:edicine has to recommend you as being - having the experience and r.noYlleQge that you should be elirible to take an exaLAnation, tests by eaamination. Q Besides the duties ans resFjonsib:.iities tnat yos c:tescr i:,ec to the jury, are you active on iiosqt itaa r.edicol con,~aittce , and issueu Y;i thin tne hoc.zoitci? A YeF-.. 1 Coulc: you explai:: to the jury r.o:5e o, the thinGS you wcrk on at the "."ho+,:as „effcrson an.1 the o:.l.er Ino..F.it«Ic, raedical comr»it tees? A I wa:; elected to the e::ecutive committeE of Jefferr•on, which is a coaraittce that runs -- relates to the hosLaita}l auminictration an6 the university as far as in-patient care. I heli.e-c the infections co.•,mittee. I ar a penber of a lot of task forces to study probletaa. The most recent one being the T.zDS Task FarcE. Ln m ~ 00 m J ~ w PHYX.LIB T. LL't7IS, CSRr 4FFICIAL COURT f?EPrJ'Ti'='L'R, t'EWAI'.F.t M
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Laucius - Direct 10946 1 Q Why would you be involved in the AIDS Task Force? 2 A I guess I bm a Willing Worker, that is one thing, 3 I have an open mind, and I war: telected, I guess. 4 Q And in there a cancer cormittee at any of the hospitals? 5 A Yes, one at Jefferson. 6 Q Are you involved in it? 7 A I am ainember. 8 Q Could you explain to the Jury briefly what your teaching 9 ~.a rer.ponsibi2ities are at '.hormas Jefferson University Medical School ? 1. 4 ir 16 :.7 19 20 21 22 23 25 A Well, in general you are aul:poseci -- Acerican meaicine is practiced b}, learr:inr tly e.:perience, sa the soj3z~aore year, uecon6 year, we aie responsibie icr teachinc on the C:itls94'tic;:. bc2uic&s.l'j iecLi3rE'n, reviei'1 couraes• A11G thE'. uecCS??v yeFar WC'. II: sG tE'.3cit t.heifi. :.;IC'i rfiX'3%`r . r+:ix 'tic8l 3ia gnoci. art6 I tao that ^'r,e Lophrore y eur t.: ey Pctusl l}• get to exa:,ane l;r:tients and ao hi::or:.eL. Ancd tney present thc:-ze anu try to organfze a :',rl7the£7iE of how that ] t: GonE,'. Senior year thEq uctually act as interns. Qrdera are not carried out, bocauae they have to be ro-wigned by resider.tu, and the teact:i>*; is varissrle ck•penc3ing on the level. Then resic3ent& and t::e interns have to be taught &j13o.
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3 2 3 4 5 Laucius - Direct 10907 In general what happens, a patient is admitted, let's us say an in-patient, and they do a hictory and physica2, evaluate the patient, taake an ascessment. At the same time people at different levels are making theic assebswents as well as the attendant. At the cnrl there i3 a concensus meeting and the att`r.dcint and re3ident make a plan of action as far aa diaSnoZia and tre$t^ent. ~• GeWic3c;s your e.•oTk with the medical students who are at Thc;wa:: 3eifer:.:on, is there a training progra.n in car.cer Ledacine at Tilora3 Jefferson? A Yes. Are you involvt•,a in thut? 19 20 V L 22 23 24 25 i Yen. RJE hs+re one medical oncology feilcrir. '•le wor t in general now wiLn hemotny cqy so they have to take ;~,och hNr_otology and oncology. ~: Do you work with that prograia and have you for the lact few years? A Yes. R.~t. SIRZIDr'Ec Could I request that the jury turn to Page 2 of Dr. Lucius' background curriculum vitae. • T9E COURTe The jury roay turn. Q I would like to ask you about soc,e of the memberships you have,. Dr. Lucius, down at the bottom part of the page. Could you explain to the jury those -- which of PHYLLIa T. LEWIS, CSR, OFFICIIIL COUPT REP4RTER, 2aEWARX, W
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1 2 3 4 5 5) 7 S 9 10 11 12 13 14 ?S 16 1: is 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Laucius - Direct l0-C"oc those you feel are th` most significant? A We21, three that have to do with medicine as a group. Physiciann, that are the Philadelphia County Medical Society. Pennsylvania Medical College and the tvational which is the Arserican Medical Azsociation. They have to do with predominantly in organizing training of physiciano, mea.cal studznts, having input into public yealtn, and dlso have economic concerns about how to organize. ,,-~ society to deliver :neca.ca3 care becter, wo those three are the ones that are important. They ara &1~ interrelated. Then the College of Phyaicians ia the *iraericar, College of Physicians. I wns a meraber o: that and el,Qwtec: as a fellow in 1::CQ. 3asiLally the fellow:,hi; i:s for (e.r,reiZrch. I am Phi2acielphia, predominantly mQdicine, a f'e13ow of the College o: FhySicians of that is predw.inantly in thin ca::e a 1;brary kind of activity, history of rather than anything. Ferhapa maybe altruism at its !>est. The Eaatern Cooperative Oncology Group is organized into different researching groups as far as treat-ng people with cancer. Eastern Cooperative Oncology Group happens to include my school, Jefferson as well a3 others in Ph il ac3cl. phi a, PqYF LIS T. LE:9IS, CSR, QgFICIAL COURT RL'PQRTER, NSVARP, *,'J
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1s 16 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 .Laucius - Direct 10909 So those are the headyuartera in rlisconuin, oo the namoa necesaarily don't indic3te the original gQogra?ny, we are predo:a:inantly interested in diagnosis and treatment. Predoainantly of malignant cancer with radiation chemotherapy, not just mbdica1 oncologists but also surgeona and radiation therapiatc and on:.ologists. Q Why do you feel it's iiaportant to be involved in the Ustern CooperaLive Group? A I think the iewLo7 that is learned i3 to try to i3prove tne resu].t of ::reataienL with paopLe with cancor, aas to do with the tacL tn3;, to oe ahie to choo,~e between two tredti;,enti~, A araJ a. It tal:L'i; iz-.r,4e num-)aru of paticntz and any one in:iivi.duai'z ~crco;r u;ua e,.a4rience wouiJ take forever to war:e u Correct ui a,;raa.:t;: and outcome :,u:t oy U: y:.r~:::4ny i: ca:t oe ut% c:p3Jrf:L:la~3Iy. ~ :i:7.3t wp::iJ Ji t'.ae qGul oZ :UC org:!*ilac3tiOn? ~~ Tnr: ;•ozi xouta a;: t.ilai ; ou to ;-iave -- would iilve o d.ug or trf.'aL..:iEnt tG cailCet. Ttlat would oe tRe ideC:l. Dr. Q t,,tllcllx::, :: !J'e you c3C.y :UeJLctl2 puUliccatiJPi:,? dt le:,, I have. Q knd in :rr,at ar4-~ac r3avc they genLrtaliy fallen in? A 'W't+2i, t+1t'y iai- into two c}roups. I think three group_c. i'4oSt comr,~on one i3 the type of the In ,titute at Cancer Reaeutch when I rrs:; working with Prehn, Sordutna, and PaYiLIS T. LC4IS. C3R, UFFICI1kh COili T it :PJRTER, IiVWuZ:, NJ
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 u 13 l5 i L N7 131 19 20 21 1 22. 23 34 25 Lauciu3 - Direct 10910 Hastrangelo, We were predominantly interested and was trying to turn arounJ iRUaunology in the favor of cancer to say I want you to give me the therapeutic techniques to allow a person to reject his own tumor. Actually playing wats, ihe one that wac turaors were antigenics. Animals could be imaunized against tusaors to begin wrth, so at the time we were interested in what would be non-speci:ie antigens. We could cerasure the body and cimulate turaorc. Turned out +.h:,t the machine:. theaiselves were wea:: u1tr1uug isJi+^.Et of t:ip ideas that we participate3 ins tumor vacczr+er. are still useL. Tne fact c.!iLit :~,rrr:e nLe3c:~ i=unity :.tron~3er in tt;e 2aut five yewrs, the Uioloe;ical srca have yivE':'1 jL bae.:aas iuia. Secona :,a,roi:~.: ;,.i3J to do c:~emott.urwNY It-cif an,3 you curi see th+e: c a: ci cria4igtaerapy tr ia',: t iisr have ;.c Ja uz::n ai.:erer.t i;in: .:;f c;ru.s uzued t:i tteal, ciiiferen:t tltaya. And then tae-, t.j.,rJ gr c,up ciaz; tn do with tiiing:: tl:at are aenerally natec;l, t:.ir~ys t~aviag to do iia:~ to :inJ out W;,etti er someth,&ng is ;1i:.1olyeJ, 'r,ave to Jo :+itan i..;:iLient care, waat does nu::iutii:.rax rtieun waen you have a ssrcoma. Q Doctor, waere are you licensed to practice mediairir? A New Jerf:ey and penn::ylvania. Q Uow muCh of your medical Fract.c:e wirn latients invOlves 0...-..,.ft esr,nnnpnnn 15t!-.-fA'JtP SS t
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ZG `7 i "3 1) 20 23 24 25 . Laucius - Direct 10911 just the treatment of cancer pationts7 A I would say cioua to 99 percvnt although when you treat a patient, you have to treat usually the whole faAi2y. It is not a person by itself. Q What are the :aout fre:juent typ°s of cancer that you soe as a doctor? A Wc1l, in somc Waya I aw a little bissed a3 far as preaentation. At univerczty hospital.:., you have i.ndigant population:: as well. So to aay in genc•ra:, tne coMnon tu;aors, which are Lrea~.t, Iuna, c:,i~un a~nu l{m,1:ioiAas ~~a;:icb inciudt• !io<39I:in:z rn:i izb:e-, odg'r.ist:. MJke up the raoat co~14or, but rsay hQa:"s, neLt: ,~t:;:e up a i3rge nui;.ver proAab l: 'oe^.wuGe ot Ur.iversity .:o5pital attract Li,u!~e. 701 were ur,i:u} t:,e rct=, zoaae u i.: ccr:~ o: ac.iecrian aL~ P 3 .`.I ent:a? A SclectxonS. Tilere i:s a ul tw af re ia`:.1v<:iy poor pe:7p1 e wao oftentisaes dJtl't fiet p:rivate rac:;icui ca:e: ana un:ver:;..tie.5 are committc:d to ac:~rev:nr, triat. Q 13ow uany yeare of experiencc nave you hwu in receiving iung cancer patientzi? A I g°ue.c if you count expericnces in rordicinc, yos count frora wtien you werc a ztuJent. I thir.k aa far aa being a rce:iueizt, I would say we PI3YLLIS T. LEwIS, CSR, O'r'FICIAL CJ:7F:r fi.2-P3RTEF:, NEWARF., I+J
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Ia 16 ;7 Lauciua - Diirect 10D12 have haJ about 18 years. Q And I know sate tiraes it is hard to estimattr but how cnaany new caoes of lung cancer would your group see each year? A Well, there are thrNe. So we uee 800, 800 new pxtienta, 1et's say a year, aizedble number. I would cay about a 150 to 200 lung cancer pa4iehts. Q .,rr,at percontnge of thoao caould be small cell carcinoma? A Probstoly about a th.zdr 40, 53 3ras21 cell lung cancers a year. Q Over your c;,reer n ok many small cell carcino=- patier,ts of the lung haje you rjeeri over your career? ~. h?proXiLQtc:y 500. ~ or.ay. it hctuallx inVJ:,:°GJ 1:1 '.:1iElr CutC. Prd:33Uly L:LC:1 i23orE: tharn that. Ti;cre aro or.:a+r oncwiuyi:>ts I ciebl wi:.:,. Lt,ey ta^e care Qi iwcs 7ut ce~ponsiaie. lu 10 ~Cl ~ Q t: :1iaVV You t:ave been airec~:_.,~ respon:;2~ie ior about 50:~? Y@f:r iil)' p3rtni3r:3 iiri! `lie covered 61eCi:e:135'i~r uo I :iC.'en LhC:ru d11. 21 Q tind have you issj ezpe: ien:.e wl.th carcinoic3 tumorc? 2 Z A Ye:;, i have. 23 Q ttn:3 what types ol carcinoia tumiorn have you nad 24 exper ience with? 25 A In general ua:cinoida as two types. The type tnat is P::YLLIS T. LEWI.Sr CSR, OFFICIAL COtt.a P.EPORTER, :ZL'`iw'ARf:r INJ
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 {3 9 10 11 12 13 :.5 23 2 4 25 Laucius - Direct 10913 localized, which is -- falls int•o -- histoldgically £311s unaer ala2ignant carcinoid or carcinoid when they spread. And then we have what we cali atypical carcinoid, tae ones in the chest which is relevant to this cace, are infreguent to relatively rare tu:aor, makes up about one percent of pulmonary neoplb3la, probably losu. 0 How many maL Ygnantts carcinoidu of the lung have you seen in your practice? A tight. n Yc't)at are generally t'.it r,,ajnr treatme::t:: .".or iunq cancer? You can de::cr iae gCnec al i y wh.Ut are they. A CuGrent:y ttiere ize on.:y three treatmanLa that arc• ao:ialuliltlt.':c a~S tar aS lullltj ccZhcer. There if: :illr Seri , ruljii2tia:t 3:1d ch3iratstnGr:.py. co;a;soii treal:neat rar -=-1 iynan L c::r:.lil:7i:: L1L ~.:):+. wuil(j: ~~ ;t s.s tr,e ~zjo::t coaroac::: tteats.:nt i or cei' c:~rcx:)ou,a? A Cjl@.~7adt:iJertiry. ~1. Ari3 Dr. Lau::iuc, did you ever treat p4tiertia £or cancer witiiost recel.ving a fiaa: pat; c,logY diagnosis? A Ye:;. :2 Dio those casoa involve lung ca:YCer t;ometit-ae:.? A Yes. i'S`1LLIS T. L.'.t7IS, CSR, OFFICIhL CJJRT R£PORTr.R, IJ..Wr'1cZ:"'., ::.7
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1 Y 3 4 5 6 7 13 14 16 17 13 20 « Lauciuv - Direct 10914 Eiave you over given tre::tiaent and caadtt a diarnoEi3 4 without a final patiiology diagno:,ifs in a lung cancer case? A YQa. Q iiave you ever had asituation where there was a difference of opinton a;nong pathologisto about the pathology diagnosis and you :ead to aa-ke a raeclicai diagno3is in the case? rA ye:.. Q In treating p3tients witb cuncer or suspected cancQr or evaluating pationti: wit:: c«nccr, waat :.ort of t1ning:, do you look to as a doctor? A Firct thing you uf.uai3.y io:,i; to tne pa:.ient, wnat they have to say, atta:.ae•:+ to a coja,~;:;,er ao the --rmptoms are of intereut. Ttiert tt)ere i~~ w;.:7ysica:. 'JJually izwve to a':Xamiile tt3L• ivD'i; 21t; L10U(j ::-r::l j, ci1n1c3I ^.oJrcC. iL a-'l li;to :.;1i:1Ct,.j a CIQciFi:o7. '~ And do you :2:i1' :.3C"L1:It':: Jr.0:1;i tC':.::fi? A Ye::. Q I)octor, is. it y~jr to mskr a:aeJi.o:l dragnosia in a case ),.titerc you are t::e pzir.ary trr-ating pny3icians li That is true, ye::. Q And is your dia3ic,::xi; conr.ained in the rae;iicaa rccords whvn you are a priuwry trea':.ing p.;ye;ician? PHY:.LIS T. LEWIS, CaF'., dFFiCIAI. COJRT REPJ:2TER, lM--+1Ati22'.. 23J
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 10 11 I2 +'3 34 15 3G :.? 13 10, 20 21 22 ''3 ~ 24 25 Laucius - Direct 10915 A- Yes. The attending phymicisn at every hospital is resj.~onsible for the dibcnarge diagnosis. MR. SiRItIUGEi At tAiB time I 1IouIC3 like to offer bim as an expert in medical oncology and in the diagnosis and treatment of cancer, TUE COURTs Any voir dire or objections? tlS. YaiLT'ERS i j+a# Jtldge. T3iE COURTs You may examine nim aa an expert in the f ield ior t.rhich he has been proffered. Q Dr. Laucius do you c:unaider carcinoiu cu:nors to Lve cancer? A Ye:•. ~ Do tnr ters:3 ':uaiignant carcinoid• and "acypicul c:cr:.ino:a" mean t.he ::a;ae to you? Q Do you use r1lL terr:. "r.:aiign3ant carc fao2:2• in a uitiere.nt ~wl ri,an yi:.•t:; u::e it rf Ye~. hn,i couia you ex~laij~ to t:,e jury 't~ow you use t:~c terz ""liynant" a;c it would apply to a ma;.iynarit carcinoid? A Wei2, in gont-ral t;iere are raany Ci.`+1a52ricationz for tne .:wa11 cell carcinoid tumor c. Tne onea that nave been cliaicL'y21X s:;eful are tre onc:u tnat are 3eparated into cercinoi-J as a yroup waich includes carcinoids, malignant carcinoide ar.a atypical carcinoiclc. PHYiuLIS T. :.EttlS,, C.riP,, O:'PICIAL COURT REPORTER, '.i:%}itiRF.. ti3
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 1? lI 13 14 1 6 17 lv q i9 21 23 L 4 f.ascius - Direct 10916 Atypical carcinoids under microscope have a higner tenJency to apread. MaliysYant carcinoids by their definition have features that tell you that they are guing to spread or have already been metataatic. Carcinoi:3 would be the tumor that is well-differentiated that looks close to norLul that has a very loa, risk of spreading. However, it is only a probability fot each of themi. Some of them have a high probabi2ity, but they all have a potentiail of being able to sf,rcad. 0 Can a carcinoia tur.sor diagnosed as typical by a pachologiat end up i>eirsg a malignant carcinoid? A deu. Q A:. yau r:iscUGsQJ, a tur::ar wz.ich i:, cailed at}*ptcal Ly the patisUSOgiatc can al:,o end up beirzg a mIili.jil3rit car ClrioiC1? A YcJ. L~ Wit.h uil treie izort uL araunk-21 wita cr,e dathulaqir.tt6 and oncolo7istc an:3 otner:;, tzaw :a yju avui:; ca:aa::ion ui:.i~ tae tcrr~~;? A ULually rc ta3k. '.nere ic :he di:.,:uaoiur., ptioi~.e get invoivc3 in treataient af canccr;~ in general wit:o t:ke surgevns, ps::aon:.ry doct,)rL, radiation t:tQrapi::t: , z:,cuzcai oncoxogiutz, uo we do agree on our termc and c,utlir.e a t r eatraent. Q Were the3e with tr,e diiferesat utecia2ities trestin:.3 the
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 12 ]. 3 14 17 13 20 22 Lauclus - Direct p4tient at the time --- 1a917 A Pathologists will usual3.y word their roporta in a way to allow univernal underatanding. Q Would you agree that the termirsology is ch&nging sowewhat in this area? A For aure. I th insc no one is zxact].y tiappy wi th the way ter,ainology is -woc•king its way out, and you see many attenpts -- an;3 I guer,s rae jury iia3 pro:xscly heard bttempts at trying to atrai9toten it out to a1lou many diEterentation. I taink ti;i:: ca::e <showb tbcre iu treMendou5 con.ur.ion and diiricuL tz•. Q What par Gs oi t.ne uc»y ao carcinoiua appe:r? A Zn the ~atE~;,ines, appen:3ix, zjr.iu:.i b0w;:.t, i1eu.:,. They c:an occ:ar e1jewnere in aa-.i p.-n:.r eai:, a4W,Mich and iung, the c:,~trvix, r% F,n:3 tuJ vot:: aQE7~J;,aairj51:4i'IL ii:Z.J s7i,;:I.gni9nt carc:nJi::a oc:ur . in all trese iocation:a? h yeJ. T41e rro.ij..3L!lby VL. NbLtll~~l~f~r~~ hav rJoMe4rllny to Vo with The onv4 in tne np:yen::2x are r arciy :cotaatasiNed. Ts,a or,es in o;.ner t:lJceci 4iave a.:igaer tendency to. Q Do typical and atypzcal carcin«idr, by hi.:toiogy 'aegin wi ui the saane cell w!-,en tciEq ur igiuate? 25 PHYLLIS T. :.E-4ZS, CSR, OFFICIl1L COURT EtEPORTk:P., Fl.~'.wARY., •,:J
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1 2 1 4 5 6 7 8 9 14 1 J z IG 1.7 13 13 21 23 24 25 laucius - Direct 1091L• A tie believe :.o. Obviously you can't do trdnsplanta4ion experiments in hum=; c,aere you give ono pers3on a tu=r arud see what they really look iike. But we believe they have a cowroon cell origin. Q Doctor, when did I:irst contact you about ttliu caaue? A In Augu::t of 1988. Q An:3 wndt did I asA yua to do? h Azi;e3 ate to review a r,,euical record. ~ And after you revieaEd the record what did I a;;i; you to do? A i,Ianted 7e to :uaxe an aa::ass*nCnt or diagnosis of wiiat wu;;z wrong tT1is patie: t. ;,? F)o yoa ildJe u-z ::.:eert oprnio» on a4rs. Cii)ollone`z, aia;;:,o~;i:,? ~~ ::i1aL lc:r trl:dt 'J;"J.Ill0rl? A Sac ::ied o: r.,aiignant caroinoi..i. ~ W:iat Jia you .e1y or~ to r.acn your diagnoc.i;~ or cti your eup;:rt opinior, z:;jost ttje diaynojis of :naiigriunt carcinz)ia? :11.,::r are :he tr,ingz you relied on? A i reiies3 upon biI~;.Lcuii.y the inforxwtion tnat waa provided. Z r et ied upon taE caar t, which waz r:3e yansi pt.y::ica1, tne 2abaratory :audict, x-ray re,~urta 3nd later tne r iioz, and tyez t:it• pathology, and later the Si2j!'y anJ tt.e: cliniC,x1 courae, what happened to it. P9Yi,LIS _~ .:,r.'WZa: CaR. OFFICZrV. _ COURT _ R£PORTER. iiE:IFa'.. +IJ
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~aucius-di rect 10919 Flow inany hours have you spent reviewing records and orking on this ca3e? . Probably close to a nundred. . And have you been compensated for your ti;ne? . Yes, I have. . And approximately now much have you been comE)vnL;ated? . About eleven, twelve thousand c7ollars. Dr. Laucius, have you ever agreed to be li:~ted as an xpert in any other caoes involving tobacco? . Yes. . And where is that case set, or where is it locatea? . Also in New Jersey. it's a case of caicinoi:,a to the l eura. tlave you given a deposition or te.;tified in t:,at eiore? . No. Is tnla the ilr:.t time you ev(;1 tejt.lrloU Iia cJui c in u 18 obacco ITiattel"? 19 . Yes. 20 Ilave you been involved in :;ny other legal a:; a 21 vitness in the past? cn ~ ~ 22 . Yes. m ko `' 23 b. And how many are those? Ln ~ 24 k. ~wo. 25 b. And in tiio::e cases, had you been ti,e treating physician of Cjih;;Ll:a P. i•IcCU 1 i:L, C.:;. l:. OFFICIAL COURT RF:POR'i'L'1:
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Laucius-direct 10920 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19. 20 21 22 23 24 25 both of those Plaintiffs in that case? A. Yes. Q. And which side did you testify for as an expert in that case, those cases? A. As Plaintiff's side. One case was -- it's not a suit, I think it was a -- it sits different, before an Administrative Law Judge, I think, in Workmen's Compensation. That's a different kind of adversarial proceeding. I'm not sure. But it was a Workmen's Compensation case. Q. And you testified on behalf of your patient? A. Yes. Q. Just getting back to your research irn the mid-seventies, Dr. Laucius, who funded the research you did at the American Oncologic Hospital? A. And also at Jef re: son. The funding has always been fron the National Institute of F3ealth, National Cancer Institute. Q. Are both those orgar.izations part of the Federal GovernAent? A. Yes, they are., Q. I'm sorry? A. Yes. Q. Dr. Laucius, referring you to MrE. Cipollone's treatment and to the year of 1981, do you know how her lung condition cam to the attention of her treating doctors? 50780 9776 z , c , C.S.R. ~2nrnTfiT nnttne~ ~n..r.winne~
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_J _ -I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ]. 6 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 _ , - 1 24 25 Laucius-direct 10921 A. Yes, I do. Q. And how was that? How did that happen? A. She went for a routine physical and there was an abnormality in the chest x ray. tqR. SIRRIDGE: Your Honor. I've got some records I'm going to be referring to. Would it be all right to tell the jury which pages? THE COURT: Certainly. All of these are in evidence, Mr. Sirridge? tlR. SIRRIDGE: Yes, they are. THE COURT: The jury may then turn to the pages designated by Mr. Sirridge. MR. SIRRIDGE: Why don't we start with page three, if that will be all right. Q. Dr. LauciuE, does this indicate, this particular record indicate how the condition was first discovered? A. Yes, it does. Under Chief Complaint chart - shall I go on? Q. Yes, whnt does it say there? A. "Spot on lung picked up on 7/23/01 on annual exam.' Q. And does that fact that it was picked up on annual exam have any significance for you in this case. Dr. Laucius? A. Yes, it does. Q. And what would that significance be? A. Well, in general, I think that, my opinion hinges on wbat . t . . . OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Laucius-direct 10922 is the pathology and bow is it a clinical course, and information that we have, try to balance it into a decision between two possibilities. One possibility is that Airs. Cipollone had a small cell, an oat cell carcinoma of the 2ung, and the other possibility is that she had a carcinoid in the lung, and in general, right off the bat, we find a spot on the lung, we know that a vast majority of the small cell carcinom8s, oat cell carcinomas have a rapid growth rate, and they are not the ones that are routinely picked up on routine chest x rays a a spot on the lung. It's an unusual way, because these people are presented with symptoms, in general, symptoms associated with metastasis as they spread outside the chest, and the majority of them have symptoms inside the chest, they cause coughing up of blood anc7 shortness of breath. Q. You're referring to patients with small ce11 carcinomu? A. Yes, and the ones that are carcinoid are the ones that are found on incidental x rays, the ones you expect. There are a whole series of things that are found that are similar to carcinoid that also can be hamartomas, and all kinds of f•unguse are found without any symptoms, they're found as a pulmonary nodule. 50780 9778 Q. And these are the atypical carcinoids? A. Generally are the ones that are found on the periphery. Q. Referring to the same record on page three, Dr. Laucius, are there any other symptoms on the page that you f ound of a . C , C.S. R. r.r.n+n.w• n~lrtnm nrD^pRTrb
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Laucius-direct 10923 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 j~ 24 25 importance? A. I think the one that's most important is going to be the one that says flush, SX means symptomr of one year, diarrhea of4 and on - off and on for 15 years. Flushing, a new diagnosis, led to a lot of the laboratory investigation that occurred on this patient. Q. Is flushing related to carcinoid in your experience? A. Yes, it is. Q. And did Dr. Seriff relate the flushing here to carcinoid? A. Yes, he did. I think on the f ollow•ing page, you'll see that he has carcinoid -- impression, I-M-P means impression in medicine, you'll see he'll say carcinoid syndrome. Q. Dr. L4ucius, did the flushing symptom lead to a test called 5F1IAA? A. Yes, it did. Ln e ~ Q. And where was that test made? m ~ A. The test is made on the urine. It's done to collect ~ kD urine. These people have an ability to decarboxylate tryptophan; which ends up in the urine when the body is finishe with it. 5 hydrory, indole, which is the base, acetic acid, they lead to 5 hydroxyindoleacetic acid. The body puts the hydroxyl in the f ifth position, indole is what's left after the tryptophan has been deanimated, and acetic acid is connected, which is the same thing that's actual vinegar. 0. And, Dr. Laucius, I'll ask you and the jury to refer to P. . . . .
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1S 16 17 16 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Laucius-direct 10924 page seven of the binders. Is this the tect at the bottom of the page you've bee discussing, Doctor? A. Yes, it is. Q. And could you tell me what the measurement showed? A. Well, when you look at the study, the first thing they look for is to see what is the total volume to make a diagnosis. Q. I'm sorry, Doctor, I didn't hear you. A. You look at the volume and you see that the total volume is 2,100 cc's, and that's comparable with a 24 ounce collection. Then you look at the absolute value, you see it's 15.5, 15 and half milligrams over 24 hours, and you will see that that's sir.iilar to national levels. I;igh normal is 10. Many people would say a high normal iw nine. Q. Now, is that consis tent with a carcinoid tumor of the lung? A. Yes, it is. Q. how, at this sarae time, when Mrs. Cipollone was in the hospital in August, what medical procedures were performed on her? A. 67e11, she was evaluated for, to be resected. Q. Is that the same thing as being operated on? n. Yes. So the procedure was a bronchoscopy. Q. And after the bronchoscopy, what kind of procedure was done? cn m ~ CO ~ ~ ~ 00 m 4 . 1 a e-Re nc+nrnrnr f-nnflrn flrnntfTVQ
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 :c 6 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 r -i L__, 24 25 Laucius-direct 10925i A. The patient had a thoracotomy, had a removal of the tumor. p. And I'11 ask the jury to turn to page 11, and you do the same, Doctor. Doctor, what does page 11 reflect? A. This is the operative report that the surgeon submits for pathologic examination. Q. Doctor, I'd ask you to look on page 12 and ask you agsin, is this the operative report or the pathology report? A. This is a pathology report, 11 and 12. I'm sorry, you said surgery. A. That's what -- the report on the material that the sends to the pathologist. Q. Right. surgeon Could you tell me what the report says about the location of the tuTaor, Dr. Laucius? A. Yes. I think you can €ee, first thing is, they looked at the speciraen, and it's in five parts. The part. that'.: relevant is part C. «e can see that it starts, medially and pocterio.ly located peripherally --. Q. Doctor, slow down just a little for the court reporter. A. Medially and posteriorly located peripherally, there is a well circumscribed firm white yellow vubpleural mass which measures one and a half by two by one centimeter, and this mass is five millimeters away from the pleura and does not retract away from the pleura. 50780 9781 . C , . . . OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Laucius-direct 10926 Q. So does this report indicate whether the tumor was centra or peripheral? A. It clearly says it's peripheral, and also even gives a measurement of how far off it is away, almost a quarter of an inch, five millimeters. Q. Does that have any significance for you? A. Yes, it does, because it's small cell. Oat cell carcinomas are diseases of the bronchi, of the breather tubes. This one is on the outs•ide of the lung, where you expect an atypical carcinoma. Q. Doctor, directing your attention to page 12, what does the report t;ay about the lyr,?h nodes that were examined? A. There were five negative lymph nodes that were 0. And when you say •negative, what does that mean? involved. A. It meanc that there were no tumor discc::,ned in them. Q. Does that fact have significance to you? A. Yes, it does. Q. And what is that? A. It was small celi lung cancers, oat cells have a high probability of involving lymph nodes early on. The fact that they're negative, it's more compatible with the carcinoid tumor. Q. Doctor, what is the final pathology diagnosis on the bottom of page'll? A. It's classified as neuroendocrine carcinoma, so perhaps it's atypical carcinoid or malignant carcinoid of the lung. P. , . . . 50780 9782 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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_J 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 ~j 24 25 Laucius-direct 10927 Q. And does the neuroendocrine carcinoid help you as an oncologist? A. No, it doesn't. Q• What are the important things for you? A. Well, I think that we segregate small cells and carcinoid out as, prognostically, and also as far as treatment is concerned, so we use the term neuroendocrine means that it's -- the original theory is that these things were of neural origin, these things, cells of origin had migrated from the brain, the central nervous system, during embryology, and the endocrine part had to do with that they made hormones. You can reasonabl determine that not all these ce11E that became cancerous are of neural origin, they don't come from the nervous :ystew., and the second thing that happened was that we found out that the endocrine features were also not necessarily associated with this kind of tumor, that many kinds of tumors made horraones, an ~ even some bacteria made some of the same kinds of hormones. They're believed to be unicellular. But the neuroendocrine concept has not proved to be the greatest as far as predicting what happens to a person or projecting what treatment should be given. Q. Doctor, was there any further treatment given to Mrs. Cipollone after the lobectomy? A. 270, there was not. Ln m ~ co m ~ ~ OD w Turning and asking you about May of 1982, and asking yo,. P. C ... , . . . OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 iJ 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Laucius-direct 10928 to refer to page 13 in the binder, can you explain what procedures were done to Mrs. Cipollone in May of 1982? A. Yes. This is a bronchoscopy, when the patient had a recurrence, and you can see that the diagnosis, we have two diagnoses here. The first one is a diagnosis of a small cell cancer, small cell carcinoraa, oat cell type, recurrent in bronchus. Q. And who made that diagnosis? A. By Dr. Snyder, and then we have two other pathologists, who believe that the present biopsy is similar to the tumor diagnosed in 1981 - that is to say, a malignant carcinoid tumor. Q. Dr. Laucius, does this record indicate that there was a difference of opinion ataong pathologists about the diagnosis? A. Yes. Q. Referring to the next page, page 14, Doctor, were there cytology samples taken during bronchoscopy? A. Yes, there were. Q. And what does this record say about that? A. It says they are tumor cells consistent with atypical carcinoid. I was unable to figure out who signed it. Q. And was there surgery performed in 1982, Doctor? A. Yes, there was. Q. I'11 refer you to page 19 in the binders, and, Doctor, wh was the surgeon? A. Dr. Steichen. 50780 9784 . c , . . .
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Laucius-direct 10929 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And can you teil from the record what Dr. Steichen said about the location of the previous tumor in 1981? . Yes, I can. Q. And what does he say about that? 0 He said it was peripheral, localized peripheral carcinoid tumor. Q. And do you know whether during his operation in 1982 Dr. Steichen examined the nediastinal lymph nodes? A. Yes, he did. Q. And what d id he f i nd? A. He found no abnorraal tumors, no cancerous lymph nodes. Q. And was that later confirraed on pathology? A. Yes, it was. The mediastinura itseif, which is the layer that lies between the lung, was negative under pathology. Q. how, does the fact that there was no cancer in the mediastinal nodes have any significance for you? A. Yes, it does. g. What is that? A. Nakes it more probable that this is a carcinoid tumor as opposed to an oat cell, small cell cancer. 50780 9785 Q. And why is that? A. That's to say that the small cell cancers are more likely'I to have spread, just as they -- same rule. The line of evidence in 1981 applies to 1982. Q. And were there other attempts made in June of 1982 to . 1c , . . . OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Laucius-direct 10930 determine whether there was further spread of Mrs. Cipollone's tumor besides the lung? A. Yes, there were. Q. And what do those reports find? A. The whole series of scans and x rays were performed. The found no evidence that any other organ was involved. Q. Did you review those scans? A. Yes, I did. Q. And of what significance to you is the fact that those scans were negative for cancer in other locations besides the lung? A. Well, raakes it, again, more likely that this is a carcinoid that's behaving in an inaolent, slow fashion as opposed to a rapid c;pread, rapid growth kind of behavior that you expect frora a smGll cell, an oat cell cancer. MS. WALTEF:S: Juc]ge, could we have a side bar, please. (The following takes place at side bar) MS. WALTERS: I have two things. One, the witness is not testifying. Mr. Sirridge has been leading him continuously during this exaraination. 1 think it's improper. Secondly, this witness has not said one thing that hasn't been said over and over by other witnesses in this case, and I think the representation was made that he was going to cover new ground, and I haven't heard a thing that's new yet. 25 I TIiE COURT: It does sound very familiar. 50780 9786 d . C , C.S.R,-
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Lauaius-direct 10931 MR. SIRRIDGEz First of all, Your Honor, what I've been trying to do is move the examination along from a clinical course point of view rather than use a lot of exhibits, which d take time to bring up and go over, and obviously the doctor is relying on his clinical experience and the clinical course, and in that regard, we are covering this material I think very quickly and it's forming the basis for his opinion, and he's about to get to areas which he is going to add something to wha we have heard before, but I think it's a very critical area for him to review the clinical course, and he said that's relied on I think this is a very efficient way to do it by the records an without going THE COURT: tdell, it's only the repetition of it. Can't he say that he's relied upon it and get to his conclusion and the basis for it without again reading into the record what's been in there 10 times? tiR. EIRRIDGE: Well, what's not been read into the record 10 times is the significance he may place on the records It's one thing to read a record and say, here's what it says, I rely on it, but it's quite another for an oncologist to say, that record has particular significance to me as an oncologict and here are my brief coraments about it. That's the format which I've tried to place this testimony within, and it's not going to be a long testimony, Your Honor. 50780 9787 MS. WALTERS: Jrudge, I think be should ask him what . c , . . . OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Laucius-direct 10932 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 his opinions are and what the basis for them are rather than taking him step by step in a leading fashion through the record. THE COURT: It has been leading, but I'll deal with those when there are specific objections made. How much more do you have on this witness in time? MR. SIP.RIDGE: I think I can finish today. THE COURT: Okay. FIR. SIRRIDGE: If I'm allowed. (Laughter ) (The following takes place in open court) Q. D:. Laucius, were tests of l3rs. Cipollone's urine done in 1982, in 3une? . Yes, they were. m I Q. 0 ~ co And have you reviewed that record? ~ ~ ~ Yes, I have. ~ And I would ask the jury to turn to page 15. Could you briefly teii the jury, Dr. Laucius, what you believe is significant out of this record? . Well, I think that the third element t:,at was tested is the 5 hydroxy, the one that has double astericks, shows that theJ~ 5 hydroxyindoleacetic acid is raised; in fact, this time it's higher than the first one, it's 25.4 milligrams over 24 hours. Again, they give the same norm always, and then also, in this one, which was sent to Sinai, they did chromotography, which also showed that 5HTP was being excreted in a high ~ E. MC . . . .. /1TrG'Tr'TLT. CV1t1DT AR•Ur1tfTFA
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 .3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 I -l L-i 24 25 Laucius-direct 10933 concentration. This is a -- not a quantitative test. Q. Now, Doctor, in your experience, are SHIAA and SHTP tests ordered for suspected small cell patients? A. They're not. Q. Are these tests ordered by you in your experience with carcinoid tumors? A. Yes, they were. Q. Now, what is a carcinoembryonic antigen? A. It's an antigen that occurs on many cells in the boc3y, especially during the fetal development. That's where the carcinoerabryonic -- the embryonic comes L•rom fetus, which is fetal tissue. We believe that -- it's accepted, let's say, tha ~ cancer cells are cells that have the ability to continue to r,•ro~l when they shouldn't be. So embryonic, they rElease this substance from their aembranec when they actually divide, and sd it can be measured in the blood on many kinds Q. of turaors. Is there an abbreviation used in medical circles? A. CEA. Q. I'm sorry? A. CEA. Q. Was CEA measured in Mrs. Cipollone's blood in June of 1982? A. Yes, it was. Q. I would ask the jury to turn to page 17. Dr. Laucius, could you tell the jury what you believe .,A. c , . . -R.
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Laucius-direct 10934 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 is significant from this particular record? . Well, this is at the time when the patient has the first metastasis. The CEA is normal at 1.6 NG/ML. 0. Is that level normal or abnormal? . That's within normal limits. Q• And what kinds of levels do you see in small cell patient, that are metastasizing? . You see levels greater than usually 20. appreciably raised. They are Q. And, Doctor, were there other measurements of CEA made on Mrs. Cipollone after June of 1982? A. Yes, there are. I think tt,ere uas, turned out there were two othe rs. In November and -- of 182 ar..d February of ' Q3. Q. 2Jow, Doctor, which of those measurements do you believe iq the most important in your review of the case? 0 It's usually the one that occurs at the time of metast€sis, whether it's going to be a useful tool to follow f o~ occurrence. I Q. And which one was that? A. The first one, the 1.6. She had a nori:ul value in the face of inetastatic disease. Usually this CEA is used not for diagnosing a patient, it's used for following a patient, hope that a rise, let's say, in the CEA will allow you some kind of early detection that the patient has a recurrence, that has a metastasis somewhere. 50780 9790 . C , C.-5.T'.. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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r-1 1 L J 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 r-i 24 25 I Laucius-direct 10935 0. Now, Dr. Laucius, in your practice, do you do bone marrow biopsies? A. I do theme yes. Q. And do you know whether one was done on Mrs. Cipollone in June of 1982? A. Yes, it was. Q. Would you turn to page 18, please? And what was the finding in that particular test, Doctor? A. The finding was it was normocellular, there was no metastatic tumor present. Q. And does that finding have significance to you? A. At leazt half of the oat cell cancers are positive for bone marrow. Yt's the tzvorite site of inetastasis, but it's no surprising because I don't believe she has an oat cell carcinoma. 0. Dr. Laucius, what was the discharge diagnosis in June of 1982? 1 A. I think she was discharged with a diagnosis of recurrent malignant carcinoid. Q. I'm going to call your attention to an exhibit, Dr. Laucius. Did Mrs. Cipollone begin receiving chemotherapy in Ln June of 1982? ~ co m A. Yes, she did. kD .. . c , . . . OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER I.,
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 '1s 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Laucius-direct Q. Doctor, I'm going to show you what's been marked as 10936 Defense Exhibit 2695 and ask you whether this exhibit would assist you in explaining Mrs. Cipollone's chemotherapy in June of 1982. 0 Yes, it will. Could you step down? Firs of all, Doctor, what type of chemotherapy did Mrs. Cipollone receive? . . Well, at the time, there were a variety of drugs that are effective in the treatment of small cell, oat cell carcinomas, and she was selected to receive what would be :.al led tiACC, i t' s an acronym, Methotrexate, Adriamycin, Cytoxan CCNU. It had been shown at the same time by trial that multidrugs did better than bne drug, and MACC was one of the combinations. Q. Doctor, why do multidrugs do better than single drugs? A. Well, it's believed that they work on cells at different sites. The Adriawycin, for example, is believed to be a aINA scan schism, cuts the DNA; the Cytoxan is actually an alcolating agent, where it actually links strands of DNA together; the methotrexate prevents single carbon trans£ar for the synthesis of thymodine, one of the elements of DNA, prevents actually division; and CCNU works somewhere in between, as an alcolating unit, much like Cytoxan. It's a binder. 50780 9792 So you can get different site effects where you get different drugs to act on tumor cells in the oites. . , . .~. AQpT/~Y~i. !`AiiUT__DQbADTL~D___
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Laucius--direct 10937 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 ~~ 2 4 25 4. What was the treatment plan that was prescribed for Mrs. Cipollone? A. Well, she was to have six monthly cycle3, a month apart, where she was to receive all three drugs in combination. 0. Now, what did Mrs. Cipollone actually receive? A. She received one course in June, none in Julyr and received just i4ethotrexate and Cytoxan in August. Now, Doctor, in your opinion, was this effective chemotherapy treatment? A. No. Q. Thank you. You can resume your seat Doctor, do you recall why Cipollone's treatment was stopped? A. Yes, I can. Q. And why was that? A. She was believei, to have hEa signi:ica::t side efiects, an also believed to have a pulmonary embolism. p. Did she in fact have a pulmonary embolism? I A. She did not. 50780 9793 Q. I will now ask the jury to turn to page 24 of the binderc Dr. Laucius, what is this record? A. This is the HackenEack Hospital Admission Sheet, where th patients are -- I guess discharge sheet, and shows that for Principal Diagnosis was chest pain, uncertain etiology. Curiously enough, she gave a history here of having carcinoid o H. c . . . . OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Laucius-direct 10938 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 33 14 15 16 17 18 19. 20 21 22 23 24 25 the lung post-pneumonectomy. This was a different hospital tha Lenox Hill. Q. And what's the date on this record, Doctor? A. She was admitted 8/2/82 and discharged 8/10/1982, August. Q. And do you know whether any pulmonary embolism was found in that hospitalization? A. No, she had a -- a lung scan, which showed that -- what's called a ventilation profusion scan. When you find an embolism, obviously it's inside the vascular, but it does nothing to the airway, so what's done is measuring airway width by using a radio icotope that they yive, and then by giving a radioactive-dyed blood injection and see what the blood vessels look like, and if the blood vessels have no blood flowing through ti,era because of clottir,g, you see no color going through, and if there's air going through, it's called an ventilation profusion mismatch. But none was found. Q. Doctor, do you remember when Mrs. Cipollone went back int Lenox Hill Hospital in 1982? A. I think it was December of '82, I believe. Q. And I would ask the jury to turn to page 29. Ln ~ ~ CO m ~ J lD ~ P. c , . . .
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Laucius - diroCt 10939 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 g 9 10 '.1 1:7 ir, 17 3Z Y J 24 25 ~ Doctor, what doas thirs record say about the'pAtient's iiiutibry? A Well, the "cc` on theae thinga moana chief complaints anc3 there Sj a quota around it. Thst means that in the patient's eYSct worda, so usually mdAissiono are characterized by that. 3o she said her comp2aint was blood in the ur ine. Next lino is that "Thia is a repeat Lqn, • Lenox Bill floopttal, "aclmission for a 57 year old N,• utsich atanda for white, the s:iyr, tor femal.c, with a history o: "pneumonectc.ri for a carcin;.id tumor," paot i,istory 04, a hy::terecLo:ay, sargical r~.~-mov&1 of ya11:,'.ar33er, ovarian cybt. ;~ Aoctc,r, :3sring iai%s eYamircat3,on, werN t.h*re rany attemptu to jcter:aine W4444:.aer ti=s;. Cip:.lione's cancer nud zprea:3? k ico, rhere ticre. I An:i whrit wcre the reuuit.,V of tcx3a© A There da:: no ..r the atu::ie3 ditl not reve&i t.ne.~ i,rcL;e&ncc uf any csncer naving apread. ~ Did yoj rQview t;tiouc r;cany? A Yes, I 3id. <2 And does taat fact have any ::iyni t i:.ance to yu;t? f. :.e3.1, aqssn raore c";xatiL)ie with carc.ncriv tu:ao: a:, oppr,svd to s.*.aii cEll lung canGer. You wou13 expect, somc kind of a spread of metaotasib witlY a c:nall cell, tne indolent, sirnr ca.cinoid LSWIS, CSR, OFPSCIAL COJRT REPJFCi`£R, IdCW114-m, N3
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I 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q 13 14 SJ 17 1 1~ '3 w ..S ^1 2b ' L23 24 25 Laucius - diroct 10940 is more compatible with carcinoid tumdr as opposed to saall cell, oat coll tyixe. Q In 1983 did Mrs. Cipoi.one have any tests done on her urine for S-t3IM? A Yes. Q Were thoue tests Rormal or =5nornal? A r1orma1. p Do you have any explanat ion f c,r that? A 5he was taking the drug that one doesn't take ahen one clsccky it. Q Want drug is that? A !4ecl;yiaopa, aran.9 name is Aida,uct. Soac•tiaes yiven a diuretic. ~ 4i1y wa:; taut j: afd Nre3c:rivEd fur r.di? A I3y;~rzer;3ir~n. Q ?c;.err ing yos to hsga:;c of 1:?:;3, Doctar, wrtat wa;; t;rx. C.Po1iorie'3 h-j4it.h ctolditiott at thvt poiac? It I tilffiw t:13.o iz qt4t.incl On wt:i4;'3 we ha17Cf «iCtQut3::iL atiJ we aave 1 ivet :~eta~3tasi:; at that t ime. (} Let tac Ca12 yuur attentlon to page 33. A Ja, you are aheAd of r.tt. I7e aave another me::ast3::is. :'ais 3x tnr ic1renal r./EttdstatiEi. Q And what were tae asspccted diagnoxea at tE1ot tim4? A I t.hinb: that the one wisere you havq 3dtaJla2 mzts:aaaia ^""' `"' ", LE?JIS, Ca"R, OFFICII\:. COURT REPOrTERi NE'rtAi2R, NJ
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 G 13 14 15 IG 17 1ii 15 30 21 22 23 24 25 7.auciura - direct 10341 in a person who hat3 an gndocrins you are alwaya worried about pheo: hromocytow. Q RQep your voicc up zor the court reporter. A lllway: worry about pheoyhromacyto~'..xt which !a an activo turaor that crcuses r ases in biooJ pressura because it runa with vhat it called uitimate neopiasia, where pao;>>e have diaeasara that are linked together, and ac9rena2 rsaosea are ones you rave to kncva whether it is going to be a pheochror.7ocytowa, becauaa when you put thtA to slaep it you don't tney 3:ave a i:ypertenaivat cr isis, and their bio.2a pressure goa3 up ;l.y:, or you have no tlood prersure. Q So whaz Borc o` proceJure ras done on Hr5. Crpoi3.one: A Pat oae tiYiny, t:ley stopi.)a: A3.:]o;aet. Cavrr her t:p:cial drugs ioc a :iaciier anj :,eta blocker (phonetic) and operate-:, 31: a.ic;:,m:•:i : az «r,ect,er si:e :aaJ azy tucij4i u<<i r~iie didtil--, otner :.i.:itt taN :xQrf't'1:ai. 0 aJwr W11iJt oLi'.E.r i.E.'::.~'.' '..''. :I-'J tae}' do? A I ttxini: ;..7ey c:oileCteti tier urina agaYn. I bcii~.~ve. Q Waat ather sear:: JiJ they Jo to check .or the k;;:reao of cancer? A :;Can:., x-ray&. Q Ana ti,•:ve yos r4v.ieweJ ttyorie tojta7 A Yea, I n$ve. Q What do tney Chow? A Showod no evsJGnce of any tuaaor aprQad outaidee the ____ _. LEdIS. C3i2, OFFICIAL CJOftT REPORTEit, IJC4."A:C" _tz3
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1 2 3 4 S d 7 J 9 10 11 1?. 13 1!, Xr, 17 is 24 Laucius - direct 10942 adrenal glanda. Q What ia the fact --- the tact that there was just tumor in the adrenal qlands, is that of &igniticance to you? A Similar significanc¢ in that carcinoids are :ikely to be alow and one site metastasize and a~aall ceil canceru 4re lihsly to t* rauitip,ie. Q Do you know whstlwt there waa an oncolody eonnuleation at that tiwe in Auyuzc? A Yea, thore Urac. Q IwiZl ask you to turn to page 37A in tne jury bir.dc:c. trriat is this repurt, air. Lucius? 1, Repeat i;.. Q what is this repot t,cho•.rn on page 37P.? h :'tiis is a consult&cion to Dr. Rdtner, and it }ivc-a -- ho aaj:vcr5 it, saya it is ":'uscin:.tina riyzit Ldrona: r>rc:ur ronco c,f a tu:q'4c t:,uug:rt Lu tnu eithCr o-Ut c:eil or caxcinoi4. TacCC a&-e fOt;tttre:i o'i atl e1?U70aiif i.fs tr.i4; is3tient it'. Lts.~t Lrse a3d syszu:nic wyrtipto..~u oi Nnt fiasaes, va:;;>JiIatiora an:3 alcaocl prus:.ure ci-,ungew prior to recont nuzgery." ~ Q n'ssat ls A-=,--u-J-o-n-4? u'.nat is tnat? A Prccureor up3ate. Do:.3rk,oayiaue is on xcrGny:z.. 4 wInat is it referring to? A In tsi,G caae it iu probao:y raterriny to procezco Gf: 3cs=otonin anJ tne fact tnat cne nas thu carcinoid zynarome rcitb f lus210s, f:a3tties. V,49odilution which I gdess is 25 PISYLLTS ':. LEhZS, CSR, OFFZCIAL COURT RE".nR':ER, Ii£:+TAKd, tY3
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 10 11 12 13 14 16 3. 7 ia C.aucius - di rect 10943 9y-llon1ltio:20 with blood pressure changes. Q Can you te12 Lto- this record wbather any chemotherapy was prescrit,ed? A Xt was recom©endrd nore, I guess prQacribed -- reoo=ended and recommenesed not uzing HACC bn+causc it was so poorly tolerated in the pa::t, and he thought that it wosld be appr®ciatle or approprinte to uso single agent ehemotherapy ana t::ougtkt peraaps adriamycin vas ordered With 4ytoYan. Q Do you know aiietaer tr,i:. was consl.clerad Offective chemoti,eragy for xnall ccli carcinoraa in 1933? A it would be canciciera :marg%nally efiocr.ive in 3..):3. iioveve r, oae oz the dr a-i:: anyvay wou! :. tse active. T:.e adt 1am}•Cit+ uai:,ti. j•1rr. S IC::;i I nave b aaort Lreak to g4t a g1aLz af watec? 't7C COi:R: s YC .. Q ao you hr.ve: 4o,:Ie? A I am f inc+. Q Doctor, in 2LM4 c3id :trs. Cipoi ione n;awe any :ur tnur spread of her canctr? A Yes. Q And do you xecull what sitea? I think oric;inaily it was liver and retroxritoncu:a. And later other zites? A Ln m ~ CO m MA'ZS, CSF:. 0P'rZCIAL COJRT RCPORa,Fa2, =d11F{fr;, .W
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1 2 3 4 5 6 Laucius - direct 10944 A Yes. Q What waa the other site? A IIrain. Q WhaEt Wt,s the further site - And do you knov whether hank you. brain metagtcsils s aasociatel with either raalignant carcinaid of the 1ung or small cQll? A Occurc in both. Usua:1y ae:cura early in arna2.l ce1l* about ten 1+3 percent ont c*11 prc&cnt witn brain metas3taais . 11 Q Do al l the uir as liver, retroi;eritoneura are a inJ 12 brain, are ttkuiv all vites where malignant canc era ut the 13 l ung z; rc•aJ t~.+? 14 k :.ither or no:::t]lsL:rilJii2JtC. is 16 I tioW, :io A Yc::j you IM-.nu*r wooa :;rc. Ciiwllot~e :zit~u? . 17 ~ 4'ricts wa :: ti'0::`.:? sa 19 A at I think it -- Ihave ra je;st~b c~.~rti£iLatN aere, 3f I cs:.n look . Q A A11 r ig~ht. - for thet f'.i3c:, c3,Ate. 22 Q i titink L:tat 1: pa,4s 44. 23 A Novav.>e r 2:1, 24 Q w.r Dfd you saf ,.ove:aber or 25 h I believe it vas Novembar - October 22, 19&4, ssotry. BaYLLIS T. LE,1S, C:iR. OPFICrAL COJIC R&?C1RTi.R, Hi ,JAaF., tiJ
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a Zv 19 21 4 h 23 24 2S Laucius - direct 109,45 J itow, t,ow long a period is this troat the tima that rnez I~ 0 lung tuuor Warz tir,rt diacoverctd? a *e11, three yoars and three noatba, 39 tnontha. Q And what doea the report indicate tioadn in the botto® tigbt-haztid corner about the 'Interval tetween onAet and death"? A Says "one and a halt yeara." Q 2a that correct? A uo, it iG not.. Q Doctor, ia tho nurvival of 39 montna consiazent with your experience with nmll cell carcinona of the 2,un4? A jZU, would be an cextreme. G 5urry? A Wo'alci Ge an extre;Ae fuC z;ma1t ccll carcircaaa oz. tt:e lung. U1iuzuat, unco=on. Q 1iOL1i:: It :y'Jrvf val of 39 (aonLhf, ;JC cori4l:;:Cl1t witn Vol:t unuorstarydi:i:; or ciArr:inoisa turjor, mAlignant carcinoi.J tunor of the iut,y? A Yes. Q DoCLor, 1da;i t,hvCC atl autopsy performed in tiliS C7iaCl~ A tdo. ;! Would &n tsutopzy have provided you with usieful inforwation? e *t In the psut -- in the paot autopsies .re looked at medical diegno3ca of -- one out of four approxieaately have PIIYLLIS T. LF'.cIIS* CSR. OFFICIr1L COURT RZ'•PJRTER, NZIr)e`•,R't:. IiJ
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 17 19 'l 0 21 23 24 25 taucius - direct 10946 1ad to a nev viagnoata for the cause of death. So it would be hypothetical to - contain worthwhile lnforwtion qiving us an idea where it npraad, unuoual fQaturoa, sites of involvement. But it would be hypotnetical, yes. 0 3octor, bswd on your expericnce with 500 cacta of small call carcinaxan, whrat bas been the median survival of the Caees you have treated? A T.aaa than a year. Q An:1 have you uaNd che:,)ot1herapy in t'noae casea? A Yes. Q ao you uae the ataginr ::ystex for Yung cancer caues that you ::cae? r1 Yea. coUt,d Y4J Qxtfl4in t:34t vyotLia tsrief _y Lo the jury? r~ Tnc• wotKing oe.:iratiova i3 t4 try to Lw::arz in way t..hat wOu1;3 pote:Itlali! *;i:ze a dif:£crence. dno th;~t in onc;oioqy would 3odw : or ui t. Lre-,:.monta tor aisoauea Yocaii::e4 arsioag;i zaat tzrQtiacrnLS w0,43d LX4 helpful.. You o:31y have tvo :.ac:al vwys ot t.rcatkte::t, are vargery aricd radiation t:v2:aYy. In +'rF1:1il cell caucer you are looking for rraet.her ttae c3isear*e iu in the criest or o:tsije u: tae envz:t.. Ti,at in to r:ay, woc1la it be en:.a".1pasuod by radlation or ::urgery? in Vc,ica case therc are cr:emos.her.apy. :sall cell can;,e rer a: t,`icr iung, we have a 3ii:bi'CAt Ln m ~ co m YUYLLIS T. LE'rTIS, CSR, OFFICIAL COURT P.E,`?3RTSR, tdLWAZK, NJ
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 R 15 I r. 17 za 19 20 21 Y 3 Y ^! h./ Lauciun - direct 1047 cixcur.+utance in that we have historical infor©ation that surgQry raay not :x helpful. We have firat trial involves e1Rrill call lung c"cer, where thQy oserated ous half, radiated half. Survivorg were in the radiation group. There Were no five year survivora in the tiargerry group. So histor icallf we have bi:+cs towardm treatiny the local traaxwent Aoc3eiity witTi ama21 c:.ell cancer of the lung involving radiation. t4os:t reeently with the combination of cae=therapy the idea hes D*en to :+it triesa up froro chesaotherapf to try to +aliainate d13Caae ans tnu ao;;t recent trial has been where caowott:eratzy ig given arr3 aa.if the group got raaiatioa, so thio s.s :.iuea:,c tGr iocLlizeJ !tl tha cnezt ancS it tu:ncc3 out ::not tne Jis©asc: i. luca:a~t~ in the che3t. Pcople w.a0 yut c`.le:aatncrapy piJus ra:Jlwt1Jt1 did iar bs:ttcr t+ian tklc cN-vup: 1d:1(F t~~'~C CaiCiliUtiiC7i3j3Y ai<y;1C^. i.ra. {~.lpollofiitilf3 cu~.ti.".or 1C1 111tf:1::~ o:. A r;c he,~lieve :iie wv:A1c3 sse utage one. Local,i:.ed to one ur nan. 1 Ti-vcre. csaa oeen aidCUSSsion a.aout ntage ons Mmail cc:l cs:cir.a:u iit thiu ::;aye as an entity. aave you e-ter zcen any casess of stage one s:aai.1 cell carcinoma? A Xau. I aave. ~-. V V a 6 ~ O E G PIJYL.'..',f'i T. Lr:dIS, CSR, OFPIC:RL COCIRT RRp'ORTt:R. Iv&IAtiKr 1i.?
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I 2 3 4 5 6 7 II 24 IK IG 17 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Laucius - direct 10948 Q And vhYt percentaga of the cases of omall cell carcinoma would that be? A Way 2e3s than one percnnt. Q And rrhat are the stages of the other cases you Aave a8en of the other 99 ,xrcent? A The vast =jority metastatic disease in tiae center of tiho chest and the other half of disease outside the cnest. Q And of the malignant carcinoid ca3oa of the Iang you have see.y, tcaw many oL those vere ntage one? , A .r.ijout half. 0 5octor, do you twve an opinion witliin a rQiazonau:e degrecr of mQ:iicai proaabiit4y aa to the r3iay;ia-ciw of ;•irs. CipoZione? A Yc:, Ldo. ~ ift:~ tJi:di. 16 C.1P 4,7iA:flt3~ h Slye had raai ignant c;arcinoij of taz~ ius:j a:::7 uier:: of rletatustic spread. 0 N<TN, 3r4 the o?7].SZio:'1u ~:1Ptt ;{otl :3avtt Qi:;iraa:~4d aCte toJay, Joctcr, have tney 411 bCen gi ven within a rcu:;unable Jagree of me3ic.al prilbaipilit1? A Yewt cir. MIt. SIRR", O4a No fur tac:r qne::trons. T:iC COJRT i Cr oaa-axamine. AS. WhLTc.RSt Haybe we can get atarte3 in tha morning. Zt is alzost the end of the day. Ln m ~ CC) m a co 0 sp. PNYLLIfs T. LS'dISr CSR. OFFICIliL CO+3sZT RC"RT^-.IZ# t7M9AMr U3
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 10949 ~ ~ TFiL COURT: Rli cigbt. We only have ten minutea lePt. All r ight, I will aak the jury to be here tomor row morning at quartQr of ten. We will Etar:. between quarter of ten and ten o'clock. All rise for t-he jury, piease. Have a nice evening. See you twaorrow. Good night, (The jury is excused.? Tati CGUP.T: You can ctep down, Doctor. Tnank you. Pieaue be seatod. (wibhea:I excVsej.) T:iL 'c:::at are we doing abvst L:le de~)o:ition 14 15 17 28 19 20 21 22 23 24 2S rca:3inr,s? t:a. :~ttLT::i:a: i tz:w& wr itten tbe oI);oct i•aa:: to the rea.ainde: of tir:i. ~ l~vi ~oz3i ~~ wior,. i'here are not tl1ai many paqL'nJ ani wi1eru- we 1141r4 indiraLZ:N1 thut it iri dup.icative ue xndicate~ wxz~~ a:.;e nu~~r Lo rne pcrtion to :;er 3epo::ition that t,a:~ ~an rea~i ir~, So I cA[ti r~ive you t~oc.i~ ai thoue. 2ZS COJR2•: aareacly? A3i r iyi3t. .'incs you have done it MR. REhRIM.Y: I waS a1:~o asitting r:eie vorkirjg and I feel tiiet if I cxn loo:c at tttat I csn cut out aoout ton pages that iave tyoen designated. 3ut now I will voluntACily PHYLL115 T. LE:WZS, CSR, OGL'ILm COURT REP0iiTER. NE't4ARY., Ai.?
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I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 1Ar 15 16 27 18 3. 3 h 4 23 24 25 20950 withdraw, no you won't have to review thero tonight. TSE COURT c So give thea to Mr. Kearney. Deliver it to my chambers beiore you go. HR, gEARN431Yi I can do it right here ind de3iver it to chaabera. At3. tdALTIM.S: Wity respect to Mr. iioward'a deaosition. biR. 6DELLs Or. Howard. I have gone through it and I have indicated In tne aargin wt,cther or not we nad an objectioz mnd vfsat zile .. certain _.. ..f e ~C cyjeCtiorl w~3w and Khi~tnet iir not cerzai~ ~~rtiicii~ v t1~ Niatn_i:r's deLignation:; wcrQ withdxawn, sv I can isajl3 it ap to Yoa r:vu. Ti3L' COJ.'tT ::oet ine auk Mr. hearnry. !s there a Cc:x%Ce, jeeing your o::3cctio^a, you oigat wltnc3r:+v aa; ? i.r,y p3rVoUc scrvrad in your revicwing tnear n:;sjections 46 vei.:: F`.rjX.:ua.L Y:.11illi: Wa tir. 41e+:/:iey. Tiis: M-O;1: Fs :'•it. Bleaklcy7 Hl:. aLt;.`,I;L=s I s:1.1 be t~1ad bat I wiil be ~:.ad to 1dJt, to 3oQk. I uouo:t it, T:Ia C.)URT: tiow Many pagces do I sava to ioo`r, at? r::"t. EDEi.t.s ::ott az Lrad at it loolcs, Judge. :zly: COUR"A's Ece what in tor:igbt' u 5ozework asusynment. NiS. 3LCA.?LEY: J. lot of it is docuaentc. PHYLLIS T. LL`~1I:i, CSIt, OFFICIAi. COURT RSPORTER, ;i17VZ1RN8 44+3
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x 2 3 4 5 6 7 4 J l., 17 ~ t) 21 z` 23 24 25 10951 THE C4URTt I heard Mr. 8leakley aay that you will be resting tomorrow. Ju3t so I wi2l know, what is left? Your examination of tnia xitnctAs, and any ©oce live witnesses? M. BI,W,.LE'Yi r:o, your Honor. We have aouo Cipollone's deposition. We have T1r. Itowarti's deposition, we have Dr. LeQ's, an3 Dr. Csriaccio's dQpoQition, which yos have aiready reviawad, and my cleauup which we have be*n working on whic:3 will not zake very caucn t ime. THE CJJRT s Da you ttiinlc st :.•illl take tl,e baiance ot ta;~- day? tiR. DLE:".::Lt:Y s I son' :. t:n ow iYOv iur.y r:i o c.oss-exZ:ainatioa oi: U:. Louciua will t3ke, out sai gucwz. as we wi:l ae fit:isnei tcxworrow out I don't t=ro.::i::e. iclJ C0 IJ {Zf S Ttit?Il# CeYYt41il j• 4aAI-F- IV S {t. L:.INLi.1 Y0J, YYQC r7onVf. a*0 tJE WJF:T: xir. Cael1? MR. E:)EL~.: Jr. i?zrris ici r3oing ca ue baCk Ca ta14 s~oa: a nnraber oL t'r:in:1c. nut if I cuua.d vce tthe Cou: tat uiJe b~;r I,aouiJ 1.ir.e to di3cilA6 one araisect o: the tr:.tiwony ul7ich caigi':t present iseheclu:inS pro:,lemik. THE COJR3': s,ct me JIo tti:s: I have :aome other tulings I want tu makez. Lot rra gQt thvse on tihe record und PftYLLI3 Z'. GLVZS, CSko, aFFZCZAL C?URi RZPJfiTZi2. IdCr7P.RFC. 2•23
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 10952 goAe questiona 1bave for couns:ei, particularly with the announcement that tne defendant is resting, where i left off thie twrning, the next itera is the Court has rcrviewed the offer of proof of evidence proferrcd by Dr. Spstmra. And, frankly, the Court finds the offer somewhat di3turbing 6ince it proffers evidence which the Court did not bar or which the defendante agreed vaa not relevant. 0 12 13 14 1S 26 17 13 14 ~ 'I 22 23 24 25 Dr. 5peary was oPfered as a fact an3 not an expart witr103S. Tua Court c:id not bar any tet:;timony oy Or. 5oearo as to re.ye3rC:1 conCuctod either by Loril.lard ot CTit prior to 1~66 uf .+:,ich the ~:iLu~:>3 ;;ad t:naii ledgc. Tae ::roi °er zu3yasta that. Or. .153. eurs Is enti tled to jivs f,~hct rv~jardiny all rei;earci: :n the area of smJk.n.] wna neait.i canau--tuii ur upwnr;oce~t oy la.oril2ard prior to :.9GC. W33ic:1 i2e :i.as tit1u.tl@tija Qt. ^he Cvurtt ayrees: entirely and suoi1 tt':.wl.zJtl}r was riUZ aarrc•a. Thcz_-fore, t:3e racor,i uhould De ra,tde c:'sear that t:7e Court did not ay any rua { n7 bar 3uch testinony %f taib Kltni'3:.. Tiie name ruling appZiea as to aszy resaurcti con.iucted rn conjunction uitri ttjtt 14ational Cancer Institute priflr to 2363. No praf ier vdu made of any avsCh te3timony and if it hud been, the Court would not aavc+ rajctct.ed it. PiiYLLIS T, LEWz5, CSR, CPPICIriF. CoURT REPORTuR, Ho^WA :X, N.7
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10953 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 1© 11 12 13 14 13 21 22 23 24 25 Furthersore, Lr. Spears was peraitted to testify as to any advice that he gave to management at Lorillard prior to 1966 regarding exol;ing and health, and the need or lack of it to ingorw the public. !'urther:aoca, Dr. 3peara was ot vould have been poraittQd to testify a3 to any efiottn prior to 1966, to diaclosct information regarding research or to refute any claims that such inEorm3tian wao concealed or auppresse3. As to the period aftor 1966# all defcndants objected to t,ha ;r.iaintiif UfFer ing any ovi.3ence as tu tiie failure of CTR to conduct r;eaningfui retearch after x96i. Uufen:lancM ogreod, as the Court underatoo:3, tnat if thi~ piainLrff idat6 'r,arred, that they woul3 rot orf~,~r any suc:, eviJe.ice aa ta : cs;eurc ; con3ucte3 after 1S0Gf. 'I`'ric Caurt exc:iuUeJ 311 posst-19EG rC:+L':irCil at rhu in ;i~stL>nce oi ttae c3efen:4nca Ddbed spon thci r oaJecc=on:: tL tr,•~ xe::rwanCe of taucn ev:;;_nce, arit3 further :ecauze tar: Court WuG arctistaod t"OtAt tae probative vaiue is ostw6iq.ioJ. ay t.:e poa£ible prejuJ:ce-, con.°u: ion and tiatto of tiwe. ':ne.cfore, tho CoLrt reiterates it6 pr1or ruling aa ko pro- and post--:.5: S rca;earCh and opscf.f icaily reject:: tae 3eferljants' profftsr in tao4o teapecta waiCh inclu:ic• e-: ijr:nce not t~arreu by ttee Court in any of it.a previous rulinqs. MR. l43RTtiftI p c May I r eapond? TISE Ciar.jAT 3 LQt we #lniah t}IesQ and I will Pi7YLLIS :', LEWIS, CBR, OFFICIAL CJURT RE~PORTER, ?Zi:;,iltRt{, PiJ
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 10 11 ,2 13 14 la 16 17 J.C 19 WG 21 22 23 24 25 10954 ccrtainly hear from you. Defendanta have also ttuixmitted a substnntial proffer to the Court on their statute of Iimitations defensa. The Court baa not yet received any rrsponse from the piaintiFf, hut here again the Court is sow&siat disturbe3 reyarding the rwturQ of the proffor. The statute of linitations yuestion was determined on a aotion for bumaary judpent. All of the intormation whica the dcfendantg suboit in their offer of proof appoaru to have becsn availubZe to tne deferndants at the twc: of the motion for su=ery ju3gment, and oran or snould nava been cu5:aitte:i in opi;o:;ition thereto. f7heraforc, tne Cour t dUea not uiWorstana tne parporx- of ;:ne i:roi:'er u:31or;-- it ia c3iegal tnat new :rsYttcra are toc:inc; prosente:: tu tiiL Court and in trzat casc they Ghou1d be or uhoui:3 nave vwan clearly iucntif 1E:3. Finall.y, a2tilouc,;u :recos;r,lze t~cat we Wi11 L)e .31t3Cutising the pr:3po:~ol f'L`:3ua5ts to c:'7arja ttI SC3-0C tlfsi3ii at biit: nppropriatc 1.izeR tTs,.T Court w1Jilea to a1.1eLt 411 coun:1L1 becuuse some oY the ptoUlc-:a:> I already ua4 and loov. for your a1i:5iiit317C0 4S to th43D prQ:}1c*13a. And general2y artd Ido not mean to be critical becaunc I recogniae that taere is so:wtirau consatrainta :Sere, but the Court found the defen3qnts' requests to charge to be P$Y'LZ.IS T. LSWISf CSR, OFFICI11L COURT Rs' ORTCI2,, tCC:4AFLR,, 233
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a s 10 r lr :iG 17 l:i 19 2 0 21 22 23 24 2S 10955 very helpful, and clearly folloved the Court's directions, although I don't agree with each and every requast obvioualy, but they were preeentecd in a lorm that wss of an assiztance and wiil be of an assiatance to the Court. On the otner bnnd, I am not quiet aa sati$fied With the reyuoata received Froa the plaintiff. If I gave that r eyueat to cha r5e, ther e woul d not be any need for gum:aations by the piainti:f. There were too many factual asaertions anJ not an mscn on the law as I would have iixed. F3uk let mue- jc:::t tell you what I have done, and I a:a in :.ne proceus of doing. I have taken ult the requests to cnarge 3nd I az now prepat:r,•- the Court's propouod charge:: to tcYe )ury. I f::in3ay ctiJ not reali: e now quici:ly I wosld neo3 it, ~)ut Ino?e to :ave 3: typed and ;So.1iverea to you Wr.tn:n t:~e next day r:r twu# aai chen I wi:1 •give aZl counsrrl tjle opportunity to s:evicw a:t ar+J give :.e your uuggt'ytiont.;• I, of co4rsc, r,ave in..luded wnat I think :inaals: be includea and " xcluJe d what I think Ghou3d not bQ includud, and trie3 to o:yanixe it in a fashion that will neIp :r,e jury. Zn as~:li;:ion to tisdt, I am in the pro4.e:+s of s.•orkinq un ray dwn oe. o: interrogosuries. : tuinl~ in t;hnt rasa I can warn you I very 4ucn simpll f i ed all of you: r Q4uecta and aga in bope that they 1 PllYLLIS T. LWI5, CSR, C3I''FICIFsL CJ'JRT aEPJRTL"Ri NC'iv1AIt3C. W
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10956 1 2 3 4 :+ G. 7 8 13 1 1, Is ), r :7 I i: i9 2 .~ ~ ji 22 ^3 Y 2 t. 25 will be satiotactory to you. Let me tell you vhat I already aeo to be the problem with the reguest to Cliarge, and aik this, tnat you give xomo thought to theae and be ready to report 5aci: to mc when we have our confecence. Number one its Both plaintiffs and defendants have incl4cied a reguvat for a charge as to c=parative frau:t. Frankly, the Court is not certain whether that is appropriate in this case gince aone of the plaintitx •z claiza are on nec3ligence, so I loak to yoa for uo:ae a3siatance on that. You both rec;uastesJ it. Itormally, when every-hody wants it, I give it but I eertai[.iy Jo not want to do it if it is not api>rvpri4te. 3ocor:dly, an.1 in t.34t :.a:ta rss:x.~ct, :titl% p; Ginti:f :Ia,I ttir r.e ~~ae~3t to c;ia:ge raqardin;; tAe :~u;;j to vsrn, :~a:::i a;: to atriCt iia:.iii.ty and in ae4jl.i9encc turras anS, :rar.::iy. :wa<1 not aware that there afii a claita C?l 'S' F1{ecl,iit}eT1t :"ul'ttirf; to :rarn and I cio nat even think it. in arpro;,riste, uut I have tu look to the plaintii'f to aJvisc rse aa to t:,;,t. The plaintifr also na,a 4 rc,:iuoit to charge uncier the Conaumer Fraud hct and tiere agai,n the Cosrt gcse:tions; ita appiicauil3.ty, particularly since tnat ytatute uze;az to sUgye2t that there is no neeJ to rsi:crir any dawaye to the concuuiex, and I cannot iaaginc that that would be apNiicable in thic case. PUYl.L4a T. L854I5, CSR, OPFICIAL COURRI' R8nRTER, tiLWFaR, t,3
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9' 10 11 12 13 14 15 2C 17 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1035~ tiR. LDELLo I believe there iss caasta 2aw On it. Tf3B CaUR°r: There may be. That is vhy I sm alerting you. I aM not ruling. I a9 sayiAg in reviesring it these are quQStiions, I made a note, tiumber four, I do not know !t the plnintiff ia aaking any claiv ot economic 1oas. Hayt,r you craii anjwer that right now for oe. Mr. srdQ31. HR. £JM~.; J~o. your manor. THE: COJRT: Fw. lal rtghL. :ae defc:rjnnts uave includej and tha pl8i:ititf cerLair.;y h.a,; mac3c• ref'tisen,:e to it, that :., rhc 4sllenLe of va3uritsry sr:oV.ing ':)y t!r s. Z.i=+ol:corle, W-13 Whi.i.`. I4z ir.tcre:azv„ in t:nowi.n:i :c. w:~Lz.:,rr taat ucfcnse a-)L~; iez: to ai: f'oC j.n:Stda.:l.'', 1 i~0 llbt :`sf:e ii*ir lt z(.`plie£r to an exi re:.w t+Zirrdt,~sty Clftll+i, :yaL. :.iay tii: ptttt oz i: in rebpect. :ioaft o.~.i1Cr F1ns1Yy, Z wos.J "~x"r:e to ;:now wt:etaer t"Ia prk.; ties can 4yret as to w;iat iu ncccc::ary on the proxircate cau:+e charge. Let me tcll you what zy corscern is: In def ining proximate csuae, do we uay that it rsust be a contributing oause, a signiticant contztbsting cause? I wuuld like to PHYLLIS T. LZWISf CSR, JFPICIRL COURT REPQRTER, UiF:7MIK, tr:J
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 12 13 14 15 16 1" 1 Ei 23 ?0 2I 4L 23 24 23 10358 t;nw if the parties can agree u?on the appropriate iznguage and definition. There is an adled question based upon the letter Koceived tolay From plaintiff's couaael and that is whether or not the fraud claim must be pYoven by clear and eonvincing evidence. That apparently now is in iasue and I voulc3 like obviously to have that resolvctd as quickly as pownible. So that concludes tae Court's ruling and queations, and now I will hear f rcua any counsel who wi3h to bQ "urd. i1R. IILE!4%i,ZYs Did I underntand your Honor to vay you ware galng to Lie circula4ing to us to:avrcow or : aca next Jay, a set .;;. 5LE.1;:LrY: And w ver:iict €orm as wLi1. T JEA' C,iU:'.':': :xeA cz.iy . I trirea to take all yout au3gestioau and ro3ue::t~ and put, it t,ogettier in awa~ I tr:fnic wi1l t~a helptui aiis :aeaningful a:W. obviou::if cji,;e ever,+z;,ajy tue op?vr tur•,:ty to reviow it and cn,ament on it. ::TC. US Ll.':" aY i I wouid 2 ike to talk about aur sc;ieJuie geaer ally, out I chinic aanybe the biide bar ti;at tSr. E:ic1i :rante3 to ha-ic, uE &.1ouid have r,or.r. TiAE (:0;5R'I'i Let U:i do it now. t•a'ne followinr takes piace at aide aar. ) KR. LD!::.Lc Your {ionor, one of the iasues that nas P13YLLIS :`. LBWIS. CSR, OFP'ICIAI, COUR'r' F'LLPt?I2TSR, NZVMRR, 4t3
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I 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 Ia 11 12 13 Ld 15 ] 15 22 23 24 25 10259 bOan a problem early on in the case was the redactLon iasue. tdr. Parrixih and I resolved it. ThQro ia an dgreement between .:ounrael bnd I don't have to burden the Court with 3t. TUE COUft2t Good. Maughter. ) MR. ?ARRI5as It waa my idQa. Masghtttr. ) TtlE COt1RTs i.et us r,aAr the app:au:.e. MR. EDMLs The only problea that the agrLtcwent pr eseizts to the Court anJ the aaaeduq ing ia that tae 3ocur;~ants were furciishea wat~hin the last woe+k, vae:, uas a aaafl ilo Lave done our bei4t ti-zrougr, Or. fiQrris tv ravirw f r;joae UacuiMnLS. ',~uitc iral'.l; , tt iz not as a trsoros~t~ r evicw o:z wc would liF:e. I thinK, 4oidevor, taat Dr. 13srris wou3.a :ke 1« a i~.~.itian to testi:y co::cernin: ttie docuwarit3 on cion't zainx he will oe &oie to Uo it Tiiurac33y an,i : doz't :;n4w whetiser or not I wili bc: dLle to comply wi.t% tac tiriree--.:ay tule of trytnd to do it au bQ3t I can, s:o :hat pLCt:'sentL' a scitedtllili'~ prQbaeIA. Tiiw COaRrs L.t ma astt thfsc, ttcausc yos aro moving a litt:.C rjG[@ rmpid3.y trsan I thought. If you all a5rao, if the deFendanta cotsclude toraorrow, I would 1i4e to give the jury off ThursJay ora I PHYLLIS T. LIWIS, C3Rs OFFIC" COilRT RCPORTEIt, 1iEWNU-f 115
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1 2 3 4 6 6 7 S 9 10 12 12 13 14 1,9 44 ^2 N 23 24 25 10960 w6uld like to be able to devote myself to getting the a.yarge reading for you at least my end of it and have my aocretary type it Friday, give it to you Friday nfght. I do not know when particularly, if you have me reading depositions tonight. I thought I would f inioh it tonight but I do not think I will be able to. MR. iu.MLeYz Tae one wo will give you aon't take very long. WE Cc?JItTs 4kay. Is there any oG)cction to giving tad jury Thuroday off? MR. Ba.:FsRLEY: Don't taini: Lo. `.<iE COUit: s ili,w uany Jays are you going to take? :ir. :'DEGL: Cisiciy Mnd I sre Vwlt.rrig about wt;ethcr or not wC -dill pJt 3n OZe ;;i,y;,iCiar: in rL!js:.tal. I have zo:;+c:v;P:iy coi-ai ny f ro:t t:,e 1u:,eC ican Caaaor Society in rebuttal r aau ler me :~ee wtiu aioc Iii.'i'1e. T:,aro Will ue .,p"o ::ocuzier,ts Lwant to lri;t in taia ze!>utta., but I doc:'t ta:nt: Lt wi21 t3l:e izore tntAn two fu_1 days. : F1E CvJRT: All riynt. :'hen, xhen we fir:iei:, we aro going to nead a coui;2e of daya to wrap evarytainy up. Uave the discua$ion aoout tne charc}e. Take care of the jury binaers. By the way, I have one suggestion as to the jury P:11'LLI£ T. LL•'wlE, CSR, fl?P.tCIhL COURT R.:.i'ORTER, tiE-WhRR, UJ J
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109G2 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 14 2f. 17 ic ia 23 :1 23 24 25 binders. M1t. EDELLs Burn thorfl. (1.at1ghter. ) MR. B.LP.MLEYs So do I. THR CdURrs There wae a clasa here from Oak F:noll Catholic Scbool, tlnd they want to C4mQ l3acki and I thtsug31t that maybe we eould urse thesa, there were 12 of triem, to sit in the jury lwz with the bfnderac and aire thera in eFfect to do thaaa. Zn os:he: words, it we oay, take out paqcu so 4nj ^.o un;i nave thes all rhttre doing iti, and they are brignt and i:dpaXtial. They would not look at the noteS and wouid not kc:c„ vhat tac natez mean, because 1 u:a f earf ul if wv have :1. .~.ia;tervooc: or ar~e:o:.y do it, c~v~:n if we ~:ave cts: L :1e: c, tho y tJ:.ve to do :.nc;2 one at a time. lt could tar:c azy~ t~; tivf{`C:lOa. RR. a.:a:.:j:, ! I iif2Ey't i1.Yve ariy A_t. "r ;'U;Iu«: Let us thf.ng abovt it, tfe £1a'le to Cilil:i: rAIj4tlt i.''t ove.tiight. Q1H31'i: T1:W cJ;1R_`s or acty group. it doea nat- tiizve ~o !)e t:tem. I anaa tney said t'riey -4antac: to co::e bac:k. a?t. c:Ui:;.Ls Ciridy':s muther will do it. ?11`.. GLs.A"=Y t yLn we go back to the Sica '."d.lliC1g? I don't think any of us have a prablcta for t'3c:3 to get Or. Harris resady. Ohviously, we do need aa full day .rith PUYLbZs T. LEWIE. C3P., OFhZ!'YAL COURT R2:PORTER, NEiil'~7{1/ W
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 S 9 10 17 19 20 y 1 22 23 24 25 10962 the specific docutAf3nt4 that D-r. Rarris will uae during his tvstimony, so whether it im three days or not, we have to cooe up with them by the end ot buair,ese3 -- NIt. EDGLL: There are a su5stantia2 number of doeuroonts we have to deml with. t4R. BLMLC'Yx Yf there wi2i be another +ritness, a witness froa the Jwverican Csncer Socicty, we ought to tse told who that i$ now, so we can begin to prepare tor the cross-cr.aminatiun, tig. EaELLe Hr. Irvi,ng Rcisaer. HR. C3F3.:s Nho is tk,at? ltit. Wt:LLs Person ;.itr~ waom Nr. Martin -- at. Martir: tiaa ouppu::od2y de.:ii.ng wit:; at tae I4mer tCan Canccr Svczety waon ae made tyo :uil-lAown prc:zuntation fullowe;f ty' ~ b3, :rom 'rUc:,i,ar, TASA. Uiist iZ 'r,s:: u:.cae? ?~iR. :;7's,L°..s ! rvislv Rcrimec anr: mcylO also Jr. :.tcb,~:rman, anotner in,iiviaa:al wijo par:.,cipated in tne prole::t for 4rie Rrerican Ca;i::er ^auci8ty and ne may teUtify a;; to what roie, if any, Dr. Et&irt'n playeJ in that. TaL' COJRT s So you nave turoe potential witnes:+en, is taut it? M.y. :~A1.TEi:St JuS4e, I believe ba:jea on what PHYLLI S T. LE5s1IS, CS:t, JPI'ICI11L COJRT REF'ORTER, 21L'W1tR.x. GJ
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1 2 3 4 S 6 7 a 9 to 1a?63 tiappenod in the crosb-exaa+ination, I nwc4e a protfor that we had an export witnesa that wojld eo:ne back and authenticate if the text were authoritative. I aBked l4r. Sirridge and his stipulatlan was that he would have to check wi tL everybody alse -- Y.R. DLCIIKLEYt That would be the only purpose of calling the a:edicsi witness? 9::. WALii:ii3s It he ia bare -- MR. COI011i My recollection is, you said Dr. Hi3.l$ would come back and say that certain teXta were HS. WA1L3'CAS! RignL, Z'ili of the texta t.i at i ua:~ 15 iG :7 14; 20 21 22 23 24 25 to croos-e»amine your witnesaas did not zay were uut:.o: itat.ive. L3iinic our inclination -- an3 we want to thiru; aUaut iC cwer.~~~:~:. I tktnx our I. i you yr a~. C~i;~+: ~t t3lat ls ail, ne :+iii Come bac:i: iar p:oviae sa, iita an uiii:lavit fram Or. falla tL,;. WIlU.':"s:F.Ss :f you re.Juite hia :.o car3e baek, I .a.Yy expa1.a. .'1i5 tQ.--tiaor.y. TEIi: COJR:`c The queation irs, whettIet yaj w2ii utiputeta to the reprejentation thtst the:::e - that uomew;;y woald come an3 te~utsLl• tbat tbeue werQ 1Qarned treatizcs unJ it you rrr,uire an atf idavit or srwothing, iet tt3. waiterS knotir, but i tr+ins t;iat m9xes nanse it you are WillinS to do it, P:3YLLIS T. LWIS, CSR, OF'FICIAb COVRT REPOFtTER, x=vAltu., tti.S
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I 2 3 4 5 6 7 6 9 10 11 12 17 23 12~ 2 0 ,I ~ 22 109dt mR. SLEA,:LEY: If we are, there would be no oedical {aitne8seu. HR. L•'UELL: We are talking about there may be a medical witnens. Dr. t)arris, tir. Raimer. Dr. Lieberwan, who is again involved in the American Cancer SociQtY. I don't think I will cm3.1 t4r. Lieberman to testify that I Waen't try:ug tu get tdnrtin, but there will be a rQading in of aome documcnt and that I think tuat vill be i:. One otnex tr,ing : wanted to point out to tac Court. Next weekend, yo4r Honor, is a holiday weekand. An I correct? I-lot tLtw carainc} onc. Triat aroula i~e tne uee4 thxt we -- TU 1-' C3;I~t+ i AMaor ia1 Day d ,aeel:ea3 a::ter thi;:. (i.auyhtisr. ) mat. Ojr four-;;~ontia annfversary. iiR.ED Et.:.: Time fiie:; wiien you arc rjaving a goad tiraa. MR. CCiI;i: iXac:Lly. FtR. PLRUMi: Taought it wraa Valerttine'S ~)ay. 24 25 (Laughtctr. ) Ttlw C'J'3F.Ti Today xt thc 17th. PHYLLIS T. LEWxS, CS'rZ, ©FFZCIrI:. COURT REPObiTFR, IlW-d&RR, i4J
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I 2 3 4 S 1a9cs 4Ay suygeation would be this: if we sit to:anrrorr, take off Thurcday, sit on Friday, complQte as swci, as we can the f ollowing wQeic, hopef ully that will end rebuttal and aasuaing wt can do it -- wait a minuto, the 23rd i€ a motion day. 6 ,YS. WALTE.rtS t Uy-huh. 7 HR. COHNt So ia the -» ~ ii:E G~JUi:Ti So we have the four dn3 two. ~ lie will do ara much aa we can. 1s soon ar: we fin.ch 1Q with tile prer.@ntation of the evidance, you 5ught to allow 11 youraelves two or tnree daya -- 12 MR. €3i::.L: Con:;trva tivel y. 13 Ta C 03aRTs -- to do everyt#;ing an;~ teii tri_ ,;ury 29 Chey uiil bQ co~.nr~ u;,c;,; for ::3~t~~xCio :::, ` j 1 ~ lr E',),a.Lc :t ao:ad ac.• aimo4t pnyaically 17 i:npu:,s.i:ae for m.: tv i It11:ai1 ~;oirag tnrough -a11 tr,e cw idcnce zs 19 20 23 24 25 t:v et: In a posi.tion to sreaent the rebuttal case aria therc•hCter i2mediately start with cu.~,:tiow, ii Iweze to do i t tr.o f ol Iowing wook, 2ES CoUR.^: We 2iave to have the churce cor.:.(., rHZce oerore oummation;i. A11 ri5at. So ve ara agreed we saiil not zeit Thurvday. We will cit on 1'r idny. Yau WiJ:I contiizuo che rebuttal case, try to complete it that followLng vicek srti3 we PtIYLLIS '1'. LZRYS• CSR, OFFICIAL COURT REP'JRTER, !`dDdA`tF, N1
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10966 2 will take a few days to do all of the problems that we have. 2 IiR. m6I,L: We will have motions at the cXone of 3 the case aloo, your ttonor. 4 MR, aLCA&Lc'.Tt That soundo good to xae. But I think 5 we aro really approaching the point waere we are entitled to 6 havo affirraance as to who the rebuttal witneae will ac. 7 ttR. SDCLL& 'PhQ case is over but it ein't over. 3 TiiS G7JRT: So you are mure of baviny -- 9 MR. 4D:LL: Corrrrct. Barr is, for eure. 1.4 T1iC CL?URTs Okay. 11 MR. MCLLi I a:a hati•inq ascbe3ulin3 proUlwm wit,h 1.2 Dr. Reiaor. .3 :)r. :.ia:),er=n called m. Lacf:. I ti-ainx t,e viil be 14 avaiia1):e for next weeF:. Think ttiey both ~iiil aa saall.ahle 15 ::nd ~:~a u~~fcai txYczrt, Cin::y an3 I Y:avt to talk aaojt it. . .,.. COJR'Ps WhQn wilil yo;t your Jeci:.ion::? i7 riR. laD!"At.t.t We will 5e making J.ciZiunS »-- ifj ..cetainly I can :.cl+ you Fr iciay, if we have uiC Thuy a6ay to l d h 19 ai c. r~it down ayti t ..~3 "Owl 31~; CiJu:Ti At iQAct if yos are alertad w:io t.iby 21 t419"t be . 22 MR. .+0R.aRIPe Taikinq auout Zli1iu7 23 &MR. SD:.i.L: Not ectrra. 24 reA;,.:MRSs Talking about aoraebndy el,sc7 25 :iP.. PAFRIS13t You can't tell us who it wiQnt be. PliYLLIS T. LMIS. C SR, dF?ICIl1L COURT RCPJRRT!:R. NCI'IIIItI+. i3J
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I 2 3 4 5 6 7 6 9 ID 11 121 13 14 y «. :.7 iy 20 ..~3 24 25 10967 Give cae a break. l9R. EDEGLt You can't ddcidQ whetUOr yuu are Yi:.liny to hire hiq7 achool stu3enta to do the jury bindera. MR. PARRISat I don't know tAeir naimos, you know your yuysc' names. MR. NORTHRIPt t'laybe to clarify nn the Spears' t2iing, one on the tdatYonal Cancer Institute tMat was all po3t-19S6. It that wasn't c/ear in thQ oiier, it uisould nave becan. TUE COJRT: I thou+3ht so. r,R. NOk:FiF:IP: Aa tar aa tne Lvriilard in: ormsGion, r.ile Couct allowed Dr. ::pears to teutify eo to what iia onad pt+ruonai kncxrl©dyc to. Ttzi:; would havQ i;svolved a rea:;int3 o: dr,cuzentz r4y9rGing rtis::cdrcn prior to i:Yr. comint, to LOc it; arT:. i1:u CJJFtTs I urslarz3t.an:i Lt3at anJ t.a0u-jac l3y ruiin43c were 3P4:cific. 7RM t3~Jt:TaE:IPc Az fasr s3 ~in;+thir~~ ~aftcr ti~at iro:~ vTi', tnat would have only bcexi rCacarch tnat we thou'4:'t w:As rtil3tCiVE+' to the causat2o11 ia::uta not to CaZ tYoillg reiF'vitnG war+c. MR. £DEi..:.: I will be getting ctocwzccitz; Lrom ;,igyetk, now or what? tlR. COtl:lt I would lrke to an opprsrtunxty to -- ane laat shot an tho°.@ privileged document8, not long but ju3ti P:IYLLIS 't'. LE1dIS, M, 4FFICIlIL CaJftT REPJ2VER# N£7tA2K, [I•J
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10968 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 g 9 10 11 12 13 14 w U 17 13 20 2: 22 23 24 25 one 1aut ghot. TiiE COURTs Do 1t Aoar. HR. EVLLL: Not in our presence. T-M. C'JA:Z: Z think it ist bettor if nott tiR. NORI`HAIYs I ata willing to leeve. TlIE COURTs Ail r ight. m tiR. RZ,EAMi.LY: Your flozor, Mr. Edell has -- TUE COURT: tt33a:t beautiful colore. MR. aLf~.'LEl's -- the tranecriptn of the depositir,n of :?r. How1cd. The cJQsignationa of the c3eFonJants were in 3reen, snd tno Jesiynation:: of the plnintif€:s in pink. ttt. Ede/1 r,4ii wat:jaraw:l aoxe .:nc2 isdicatrcc3 where :ke t'7il15 wi:.tltlt'Z1Wfi it aila :+Uiie ot71er vDjLCt.'sOn.zi t2n.12 yotilr dor3or ls •3'J1:1~ to iiJJi.° to :i].L` O1t ~.Zf."SSC'. '2:11: CJ:SJ':: daw cso t;le objection;, aa~c ~r? t::t. LI,:.k:::.I:Ys;Ie- h3c bianks•te;3 t:ac;,,j iLisa and nc :.as -- lze cli:ixi't z::y wau t. ::R. riArZM: V: Herff is tiR. n~.EAT.+.EY: an e;:aap: e. "i:J" meanc cxpQrt opihion. Tpc. CaURT z is thi6 a faat witneza7 KR. 3LCA1.LCYi :z: , but you 6'r)autr3 nnt be mi:;7.e,.j uy t:3e fOCt thiO 15 3 CiAlM. T:iis is an explanution of w:j the lwcrican EduCetiona3 fiosezrch i'ouadation -- ViE CD:3ZTc Maybt Kt oa5ht to get t;im. HR. gLE.V:.EYs I am not ruking the arqument. I PA'YLLIS T. LVfZS. C&a, uFFICI7IL CDURT REPDRTCR, tIEWAP.R, tW
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 13 14 1S 16 17 la 1s 20 10969 don't want your Honor to rule. I sugge$t your aonor read the depoaition trsnscript tonight and give us an opprortunity to argue in the ffiorning. TI3E COURTs Otay. ^.fien you better be here 9115 tomorrow. tibt. 3L=t.EY s Okay. t4R. E7ELL: There i:i not a substantial arroant of lnfortaztion in disputa. TF3L C1URT t But it is a fact vitness. 3 R. DLEAMLx"Y~ Correct. We ire not offQCing the testizony of Dr. Howard as a fact witnesz on ttio is;.ue of cawsntion. rie ste oifering tuc testiwony you raee marked tnere as Dr, ao:,arrl's ea pianation of thc reason why the ri:.9tittc3il ;3C:iic&l L:luCJt7.Gnd1 lt~.'vedttCts 22`uun3ataon .:greeJ wit:& tnc '"o1jaCco Inaustry to uncie:tuke tria reware:n tuey da3. :i:t CGUaT : I wkl,i iaat. 3t it, where ir* tae otner unc? i1iierc is C'•.pallone? :iit. JARF3;`Lus tZersaving pagau. :,sn't di$cnaryt: tr,em. TUE C,'):3R:': :'•row +oz :Iave Mr. Conn, :2 23 24 25 AR, CJi3:.s 'A'our IfGFior# let me staxt witn tl".a docuraents. Y think i:zave the t>eyt argwaEnt on -- TaE CJ`JF.Ts Go :nesd. HR. C.OaV: That iu nmbcr aeven, wuich is a !aezo PjTYLLIS T. LENIS, CSR, nrPICIAL COURT RSLs'JRTER, tJL'WARF.. ?:J
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1 2 3 4 S 6 7 6 9 10 10970 from Fred ShePPield who was a partner at Webuter & StKffihld to Francis Horan, who is the general counael of Liggett's and ThoAs was the preuident of Liggett. I believe the merao is clearly a mamo of legal opinion and advicm on the iasue what to do on the .:ongreesional, and clearly atturn®y/ciiant privilege documents T13S COJRTs s3ho do yo;a say prepared it? MR. CAHI1: pred Shw€field of Websterr & St,elfield, Nt that time, Prea Horan. i3e hated to be cslled Loran, so I have to esay Uoran in deterence to hia oemory an3 Ttsau:- waa t'rse prusident oi Li.gge tt. So it is; fro:n coua:5c:l to coun3el, yiven r,ig opinion un t4ese and thEn thCy go into t:ie prcuent com, any. TIM COJaT: You s3y tnia is 0;: 23 24 25 PiT. C13tts Pte;: iie unr* rted Saeizic;d of iJ;:JztCr• St1~~:lt~~. TiiC COuRTc Sure doesa't iooi; like aviy iagu:l adviCe. That is, t.4e vzy I reacted. tiH. CJ'.Sh: :lan.^ssUinq th*t st LhiS po:nt in ti:as-, companieb :shou13 conaidet tn it!; regulatory scaemc. ile iQ g3vinr, opinio:, advice oit:% xespect to t;st. Gives nis opinion on waat, ii any, effect it might hbve on litigat:o:.. Uooan't thinic it will nave suca effect an3 yivin5 tiiak his auvice on thxs iseue. P'tiYLLIS T. L8WI5, CSR, OFFICI.IL COURT fit'PURTwR, N9:dARk, *:J
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10971 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 0 9 10 11 20 22 23 24 25 It seems to :ae, clearly, the advice Til° COUM I will look at it again and keep this one. The otbers, any problem? KR. COM I thought I would start oft with the one I had the beat argumant. As I urr.lprst.an3, we are on appeal from Judge Cowen ao for clearly the erroneous rulo, okay. On this one, I's:ave no problQma, I think it is cov:erod by the privilegr, but in view of yuur Honor's last stattment, sQems to r:e we ought to cut this tning of f. T!3E COURT: it is only the Factuai part? :3t;. CO:;.Kt :•ierc~ 7}1 go`a on. SeO:~r Wa hatie to cut it ot: at 'f6. You :,ai3 :cs Pagc 4, wh:Ch qoe:: on t'rirough '71 an:! '73. Ti3E. CJ(1RTx I a. aut ta:kitiq aLouC : ttiinl: you ouqi:t to tuz n it ovEr au tisciLgrovn3, a:, ',i:;tuai. Fl"tictner I vi11 ie:: it in tor tnrs entire 1>etio.f fa -MuetY:img elue _,. :Ylt. COh:~s 1 think it is ~.till cundiderea by tae pl!lltltiLf. TaS CQUR': i So t.ney staoulcf bt turned over, that aaction, the backyrosnd tlR. CO3tas Can't do it till iomorroW. TI1S Ci1:1fiT s Ok:1y. PiIYLLIS T. LEYiYS, CSR, BFF;CIAL COURT AEI'ORTGFt, N$'dARK, NJ
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1 2 3 4 S 6 7 13 14 I r, 16 17 23 24 25 10972 t4R. COHNi This - that was out of order in teraes of seriousness of my argument, obvioualy. ttutabar gix, is again a memo €roa Erancis goran, who is the ganeral couns3el of Liggett, to the pxezidont, copy to Frederi,ck P. Haas, wao was a part of Webater & Sne:eiQld, and it Is dealing I beiieve with the cigarette adverti5ing rodQ thkt they were conuiderin4 setting up at the tiar. This was reference to the cada. Federal Trade Comits:.ion and the c2ar. The czar would be, I assums, the code administrator. AnJ again thi3 is Iagal advica :rith reak,wct to settrng up an opinion with recpect to :ret,ting up the cigaratte advertisinq coac which should oe out uf it. THO C'JURT: I will tuke another 3ouk :zt it. M aen you say gencrai cc~uaaEi, :~e is ~l:~c~ ars off xcer, vice-prcr.ic3ent ;:rrJ ge.nerai counsel? tin. COHNs You. but lun_tioned as I uaJcratood it r,u generaa eouu4el. lrumsaer 55 is a momo froo Adison Yeaman, geaeral cosntol anci vtce-pre:fident of Grown & Willia:anon. :.,is i4 tti4 author, Adison Yeamdn nigned •A0.' Tnat is cie ntationery. Tfi:.' COJbtT: F3e iu not the autaor of what ib at t.'icaed? :tR. CO3tZ= I don't knov who ie the author of what Ln m ~ co m kD co N co PSYLLIS T. LL'EtZS, CSR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTCR, NEWRRfi, NJ
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2 2 3 4 3 6 7 8 10973 is attacbeel. It appaara to be related to a maeting oE general counael on Docomber 17th, 's5, and it is an addrezaed to general counsel. It io ::ry unlecstanding theso wera all the general counsel at the time. THE COURTs I do not have to look at that one again. That one ahouZd be turned over. All rLght. ttR. COiJNe As you aeC, I was in descending order. TI1E COURT: The other two yos will turn over. MR. C6H;ts I will reduct the one and turn thom over together to,uorrow mornl.ng, if that is okay. T ilE C JJRT s '1^.h.ini; you . :SR. C:?aN: I uoukJ oppreciate i.F you look att t.harn again. iaE COJRT s I w i i l a~ :Yappy tu. "2 ti 23 24 25 (r.nd oI zide Dar. ) TJE CJU:t^: D115 tooow r oW iyocnxssge rIR. C01;::: W:~S it tt,e asst pcaCtt.a to scd.i tho eida bars? 2Ei:S COXI.': z I do not t'hink on thin. It irs not necessary. You h3vtt just identtfie:i the reoplc. (Court o3journcd untl.l May 18, 1930.) ?IIYLLIS T. LEyiIE, CaR, Upt'ICIAL COURT REF4RTCR, iJRYJARF:, tiJ

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