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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13. 14 15 19 20 21 22 23 24 DI;,iP.ICT COLttT DI: TRICT CF YORK Civ. Action 1,Io.74 Civ. 2695 - CES FaILIP I•10:w IS IL7CGFtrGRF.T: D, ) Plaintiff, ) ~ v. ) ) R. J. REDVIOLflS TOT ACCO ) .CO,v1PF-1IY G: d «TILLIAM, ESTY ) COz.YpoTY, rx. , DEfendant ,. ) DEPOSITION OF II. COPELAND ROBINSON, JR. APPEARAF. CE S Plaintift: 7,ntlro:;y L. Fletcher and Timothy C. Quinn, Jr. , Attorneya - Ce;z-hoy, 1'.c%•ritt, O'Brien & 13oarc'rman, 20 Exc2-.ai:ge Place, Vew York, New York 10005 Defen::an:s: R. brudl:e Doal, Attorney - Cooper, Dunham, Clar'.:, Griffin & moran, 30 Rockefeller P1M4a, p;cw York, 2:^w York L. Alfrod wilson, Atto_nay, R. J. Reynol4s Industries, Inc., winsto::-Salem, North Carolina 27102 ~ * * 4 ifr * t * * Bo;:sn Ross and Jack Koach, Attarneys,. L=V c_;:at .& Ai'Vers, Inc., Du_ham, North Carolina The deposition of H. Copeland Robinson, Jr., was taken on December 16, 1974, at the Holiaay Inn, Durham, P}orth Carolina, bevinninq at 2 s 00 P. M. , in the presence of 25 1 counsel he--einbcfore stated.

1 ...~..~T•. -~~... 1....•..1.- ~ r 3 ~ 4 ?9 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 I 19 20 21 22 23 2 4 Lt~End~ 4 -„ .9 r u6 ~f ...' T .. I ".• 2:.:.5 . 2.4 «r ~.~..+•. ..~... ~... ;. '. - , .._,E i 52 12 22 25 29 31 32 33 35 39 45 !5 49 52 25

1 I . 2 --; 2 L% aTR. 3 B3ir_g first duly sworn, was examincd I ~ 4 and tc: ,tificd a:; follo-as: 1 ~ 5 6 T.'?:1s-:-iTl?'.A1^.IGh rsY 12. fiOALs ? Q. Mr. RoIbinson, will you give us your full name and 8 home addresu? ~ 9 A. 2122 Ncrth Lakeshore Jr. Copeland Robinson H ! , , . 10 Drive. ~ 11 Q. By «hoca are you er..ployed? ~ 12 13 A. Q. L;ggett & Myez s, Inccrporated. For how lcng have you been c.r:.ntoyed by Liggett i i i i ~ 14 & t:~•::rs? ~ 15 A. Sy...~co February first, 1951. 16 Q. And what are your present responsibilities for 17 Liggett & 2'.yers? ~ 18 A. Pxcscntly I am Dirc•ctor of mar}.cting Services. I 19 have prir;iary recponsibs ities for the media and 20 ptiblic rclations of the tobacco division. ; 21 Q. For how long havc you had that responsibility? 22 A. T::at particular rc:::ponsibil.ity, three or four years . 23 Q. Could you outlir.e your enplo}rocnt history with . 24 Lic;;:: t-,t &k:y`rs, giving us the times and dates i i 25 when you have had various positions and a r 0 a w A -

A. As ;x:st I can in chronological dating, I 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 joined, as I caid, in '51. b1y first title was Iissistant to the Vice President of Advertising wh; ch is about an advertising department of two people. Within two or three yaars after that, about two I su3p3ct, my title changed to Auvertiaing manager for Liggett & Yyers. I stayed with that title until approxirnatcly 1965 when I was Director of Brand ?dana3ement. That would be 165 to 171, 172 wcan I took this title. And pr for to 1951 by whom were you employed? . A. N3t:ell-Errm_*t, khichh was the predecessor of Cunningham & Walsh which is the advertining agency for all of our cigarette brands. Q. hixen you say ' all of our' you mean Liggett & Myers advertising? A. 1t that all of our cigarette brands, that's c.orra:. t. Q. Did you work on that.account at that time? A. Yes, only. Q. That is, you worked solely for Liggett & r:l•ers? Solely fcr L:+.; g:-tt & 23yers. 25 1 Q. I hava aqro-ip of Chc-,stcrfield ads, the first three

Ir 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 12 14 15- 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 b~-ia7 a3, dat^! P:c:vc-•-b;cr 192.7, 1932, and 1940, prior to t: eWit:~ess' cr:p} cy tvi t'~ t?~e Lig7(:tt & r:yers Cc:,:rnny, ar.d, as I u,~~e_ s ta.~d it, you don't rc,--cg^i" these eFsciflc ads? A. 2'0, s ir, I do riot. MR. BOAL: tir'all, I wonder if you have any objec':iGn to the autherticity of those ads? 2.R. FLETCsTER: r:'o. I will stiaulate that thry were chesterfield ads as of the time you stated. N,R, BOAL: O',cay. MR. FLETCFX.R: F::cuse me, may I sea thera for just a cecond? tdt, BOAL: Sure.,.. I ask the reporter to r::azk tt.cse as Defendant Liggett Exhibits lA, B, and C, (!'.RRY.ED FOR ITiEIeTIFICATION) (Mr. Loal) In Defendant's L & M Exhibits lA, 1B, ar.d 1C, the word 'lir.ht' is upEd in the body copy cf tl~ose e:{js :;7,its, ' light' in a vc-rbal. scn.se I think. Does it .z f: liSht Up your Chcsterfield? A. Light up your first Cnestrrf.ield. ~. HavL you cf nr. that kind of use of ' licht'? A. Yes. Q. In zdve=ta.Fi: g over the ycars?

5 .. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. G~,;:tzin1_ . Q. ry ? A. A. I w:.clil aay rrc,~.^,,a:atly. is it a coi~xnaa usc: of ' 1i.ht' in this business? S-r_kh, 13.,~ht a ci.carctte, cc.rta.tnly. Q. I have here a page from the r.lagazine GIRL TALK, the sucn:::r of 1970, and ask if you recognize that GIRL TAL•K ad? . Yes. It's like a nu.-,,ber of ao.s, looking the sans. This oze hal?pvned to be pi:.blis'led in GIRL TALK. ir:::at v'.s the occasion •fnr that; was that purt of a particular c:.~.~aig*~? : F. The svT-,aer of 170, this is about the introduction of. eul-- vnfcrtunate picture packs for Chesterfield ar:.d we r.r.n very little ac?vertising on C'r.estezfield during that period. That's about it. Q. Whcn you say 'uI'lfoZ'tliE3ate', this kas-- A. xk•ut's a co-r.par.y picture packs didn't help ,,n b::.rn-.r.3 vezy muc_. _., Q. And is ' 1ic.:-.ter' used in' t.he copy? A. Yes, 3ir., Q. In that ad? A. (14I':-'::: 0133 NCDS :-MAJ AFFZZ~:ATI'JELY) (;.. Ar3 ic- iaVin :c3 to ba conveyed by the use of L, 0 N r 0 OD w ~o

I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6 the {.:::rm _~F:r' i.r; "i :.0t r,axti.cular ad? iIR. FL1 Tc:L;:R: Objection to the for:a of the c,+t.e.;;,io:2. I dcn 't ti:izix you have establisY.ed this quali.ticAtions to answer to the intent of th-3 ad, that is, at this point. It may be possible to do so. N:Ft. EOAL: All right. Q. (I•':. EGal) Did you have. z:ny role in developing the ccpy.for that? A. No. Q, Did you r:avo aiiy 4pFroval= did you have any responsi- bility of any hind for that ad? . : A. 1Fa, e::cEpt its placein:©nt. Q. Ex::cpt its placer.:cnt. Do you understand the copy A. A. in that ad? Certainly. .is it obvious to 1 ou as to what the intent of the uzY of t1: o word 'ligt:t' is in thaL ad? G:wic•us in i:3y' ce::'_e~:" , v~.s. j•;e11, ti,'rsot is it? rm. rLrTCi:LR: t;cll, I objact again to the fo:.'m of the question. I don't think that any of the issuc:s in this csse is whr,t is obvious or not to Q;e wit.r.o-ss. -4fie queotion isc what does it mean 0

1 2 3 4 5 6 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 r 7 to C:= co:at:.-:~:g p:iLli c, 2' :. :;OP,;r: lWcll, I thin:: t: at this witn^s,s-- FL:.::.:'.~.'R: I will poiat out, also, that he cur.'t :;L~tify La to tY e izitent of the ad. t;R, n0,r3L: As to t:.e i,-itent of the ad, okay. Q. (Px, iso:.3.) Is thc••re. z,.r.y pu»pose in the advertising COE) y f::,: :: ~:? The purpo;,e of this Plrtivilar advcytisin; is prE- sL::,ably to introduce the pic!:+.irQ pack and to r.;r.ke it clear that t.t-.,.re are coi.Fcr.s on those packages. 01 Does the c: 14y 11ave a.ly purF•:~we? . A. ac}•.er than the noa-mal cig :r;:tte langu:::go, of Which t'l_irn isr.'t very much, no. b~ And is is`e.:e any hwpose to the normal cigarette lt:nguac~P u::ed? I 4oa't un.darstand the cuestion. The purpose of the 1::.2s;u,:,,y_ is to ES1> C1J~:~~tCB. Q. t::.:. tKyare a pL:.;ez-5^ for thz~.; .~:irticul«r--v:::s there a rcazan fcr c::::osi^a t+':e Far-ticulur copy that was LzCd? A. Iyou are rcserrir.g to 11 ightcr' ,'sraoothc+' pzrticulGrty, aren't you, and I can't cay that there we.s =iy in that. Q. Decs t12»t hw•: :.ziy racaning to you? ~ 0 N A a 0 (b c .W4 :

1 3 4 5 ? 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 .25 8 A. r>• R: uait a ninute. I cbject to t'::.t is Y,~:yinniz:g is net respcasic:_, I i,•;.;.:. t;.}:c a ycs cr r.o an:,•ker to that and then o?;jcct to ti:a follcrpup u~:estion. Q, (tn,r, toal) If it has an y neaning to you, answer y~s or no? A. Yes. Q, O:4y, wil:at is that me«r_ing? Fz1?=::c:E::a:: Gbjccl%-.ion for the reasons stated l;cic+e: Mt;, uOAL: o:.ay, you Ciln answer the question. ; :5r.. FL::TCr::U;: ?=:at is up to his counsel. „~. +~ Q~S. . C;-s••i~T'. t...l. a. J A. :.t's o}:ay wii:h ns, because as far as I'm concerned this ? G:r.guage is really cigarette pLffiery. It ~-r •-111Y d~acribcs t::.: fact t::4t tha cigarette is a ~+ ..L l..L,4-. ::: tcista:.an so:aa oi:her cigarette. :::M c.Cr6s 'lig: lLer', 'smovtr:er' have u*'.jT n^ .. t0 ~ ^ ,i~ 'scaoo;::cr' kou d tc wcrw cc_:~:~cc t':aL it is lczs LT!.°sh than its co:r:petitior.. is its cL:,: c)c:i.itiCA? ;. 3:. i- c'=: : it;; tion t:ould prob:tbly b© a].l c ti

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 - 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9 i}:a, Ive've . ..+ u i.....r gv1. ,. so tr ic is 7.., cvcry- L~uy, ha t,c i:~.::C:_cu's, all ti.a cic,hty-five's, and ull c;::ic:- is a lo:.g list. I~:.".. -FL]:Z Cs:a : E:c4cz;e me. M.ay I see that ad for a r::.m::nt? i_:x. SiI9.'"J.7.iSS= Yes, six. 1t":. t3-.ir:3: that if we're going to. r refer to these things, why don't we mark them. A',R. LG2:L: 1'"cs. The rr>porter will mark the CIF,L TA%: ad us Defctldu; t's L & ti Exhibit 1D for ic:: nicif icut• A1.cn, l 2-;Fc. : LETCMa: Just, fou know, r•ot to pre- etapt- ycu or anything, but can cie agree that these are all filtcred eigarc•:ttes? A. Y3:,, :ir. 1•.Ti. Fi.,:7Zi-::::: 11.:.1 So when you're `. ».- +,~~•~~t.. ' r •w, ~ .ou Irc tulk g ~ o n r, ~~._..r r cir ~ ;. Y•.. ..'~out . . .~. Yc:., sir. A.•3 Carie 1J c and Lucky 1 W >n .• ...1 ; tr~.a:cs you wcre resfor:ing to were thc Carnel and ::. would ?;:c c= chicf coc::l,ctition, ycs, sir. t S , I ; b

•+ 'I 1 I 20 ... 2 1i.._ :_'_'_`~'. . • .. =. Clc::y, t:_a:a: y-eu ior yoi:r 4 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 22 23 24 a• n. 4'._:... dc: 1:c~ I) I rava hcrs a c,;roup of print ads or cc.•l:: it:s cf p_•it:_ r.:5s for L & N. cigarettes, and I•d asl; y:: u to look at taesa ar.d tell us whetr.cr or r~ot you recc;,rize thoso print ads? 1'es. Ts:cd can you tell us •..-hat was the occasion for tY:e placement of U:osc ads? I'm not ccr-3:tuia but this is eithe:: the first or t!:e : Lcan3, cartainly a very, very early on campaign i f.o:: L & 11 xilters, when it ums introcluced, tiore? :rc? Z, ths pu:po,a i•ras to tt xl the world that w© were Y:c- re ar:3 alive d a.nc7 that we wore a cigarette of a cc:rt<sin tl;.as ar.:: kLnd, Yva .,. ;--uy t L~te?. ~ • . ... , r.:- L u ii ci-~O:.~ ~L~te? tL-_ L & t•3 cio-are. _f::D, ri_Y' ht. .~.L t%-.L_ l~i-ra in. ti:.a :•:::at ot.cr filtcr cigarettes t:c:_--c cn t',B r::ar3cct? I'i2 not c^ab.,,ol.u„'i..'.2•y sure of tt':i:t, too. I t:.at Y:,r.t in.s. I su-spect, if my rrr-mior- ~-...:E:. a.'. ~.a;: Vic= mci• i:ac around as a filtcr

1 11 ., 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 .v_ -- mii:icr •.:ay C iian L & M and '~ [• \i{~1 V ~.~...~} {.l...i. nV r.! }''l.~ of - LV ~.~..A1~. t . i.~:+.~'. f?.~~.e3. _$. CL~u we cstablich t*hat that V : Y :Ja:3, 2«:. ECIt~ ~ :'L. LO"LiZ ieah. ads? A. 153. This is 10-28-53. : i•Y.at is the Fir•ct one 1-Q;i are loorin5 at? That's right. . FR. BOAL: And I tiosZd ask the reporter to 13 14- 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 mark this 5,a;:p of exhibits a3 2A, Defendant's 'L & M Exhibit 2A C:r_ algh howavo; raziny ;,hc:ets thcr© are thEre. Ta3 iiI^'IMSS: St loo~ks like there aro twelve A. A. of them. (IL'~i,ZFwD FC : It~.:..IT•IPIc:ATION: 2A through 2t4) I2:. I'L.::TMu; : :iotc on the record that K was s:,ipaea in the systern. (;.r. Poal) Do_s the woru 'Fozitioning' anything to you, ,••I=. Ra;?inson? Yoza mean cigare _ta p~,,:,:,tiur.ing? _ Yes. Yes j s i.r. mean

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 12 C,,,. Cz: :, it irn t:e cl~arctte :'ur'-3 c:z various catEgories of cic;:lrctt : s ~~r how 4ny ccz;par_y w^uld tt',Sr, but tiicre are--thc:re is a nu.-aber f oi different positicns for vtrious cigarette braLds e:..d e~cl-i c=::pan1 and each brand attempts to find i~s po;:iticn in the na::kstplacQ. Does it man how a cic;~.rette stacks up against compE;titive braadc in s:LmilGr categories? :tes. F-r~~:: a r:nufacturc:r's point of view it starts 13 14 15 16 17 18 a 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 wi rh a pr sfw:: tcrmix:r:r3 pos3.ticn pcrY:aps, zr.d I s%s;r~oEe ending u••;, it cculd be cne of how it is perceivcd by the puU? ic, wiich in some caEZs are not the same t=sa J.[:~~~ . . Does the advertising that is placed for a particular b~and have scna.~~~in; to do vith the positioni.txg? .ti. 0:1, yes, s; _. t~ :~, dw'-: at--cou1d you c.plan n that? A. t:-_11, it vocld be eaGier for me to do it if I could u_-e it by examhles. Could I use examples in this c3: C? i.aj: alzcut L & 2•1 in the advertising that is reflect~.cd i.r. D: ~cndr:nt's L & 21 L'xhibits 2A through CA 0 N o+ c 0 m ~ A

2 1 ~,~. . _. r 4 5 6 8 9 10 11 " 12 13 14 15 16- 1? 18 19 0 21 22 3 24 t},:.t i:, a rLt:Q: eacY vi:c I tY:ir_k, At f::. c z t i:ac i& i: a,.d i:cmt hc ir.g E ar ly ,. in 70 atill:~~.~ter c:n.. < rrt. was an attcrryit :: i::.'::bCioa::r CGUSuC:Cl', ±ot:= et to i.rr -t~1.: to a Ls. a' cLrtninly we were--wcre to •,:revi 4ttt-::ticrs to thc: fact that %-:a a v-c_z which I use Ay, ti:z:., c-.wc:r c';,::r'-ctcs cn the markc:t at t:_k_t ' t i.r.e. %0 Y"uu -'ue' ••cu c_c r~icr=ir.g to the L & 1-1 1 r I ~ c:~ r:~. t::? I to z:_: e: to t:~e : r::r.d G's: i:: d Ctz'.:.Y Cigd1:C.i.tCs such as a w:.ici; a ci,azettcs ~:aea I ~~Jt of th-- i~...'~:.::~ C.~uTS`, was in tho :.t.e ,.xt.cs, th,: l:.rtl:, t::e Pall ui 6`sc: b1ru 'ai:raight'? A. Uj :4~ iu u:; iL w...:, i ilter cic;ar::tte. 25 .1:., 1../)11l71 t:1.a.. the

1 2 3 4 5 6 14 __.'w`; .. ._~ c.1 ii: arc st-rrung. it •is 'L:4a:t- !r,. Z:C::C C::S,:.:~CGG .. .,. : , J.=e, J,.Cr c;.cprlc, to o,.;.r f iZtc:: :•. :tterial, Y.cnt at that hae, a r.;ic_o_:ito filt-r uhich presurrably was :*::~c~~ o•at of sL::.~ fiG,:y of :r.:r.ez:a lez:al base. k•c: wcre thc c:zly ci r~vzette on the rza.rl:et, and as a::attQr of d~:ct I tta.i~: s::a.ll are, outsiSs of the menthol -c..:LccGz=, whic.,~•~ had awhz tc tip and a waita filtor. ::hat fact t•.:: daa to po3itio:i us by itself. +::at 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ;azt a? : owas one ull-Sica we at4cmpte3 to car itli.2(3 in cz: radv:::: t; :; ing. wo wcre---..izo nmx~.aers I don't ~ rvracr:z.);.:r, and I'm not c•ien yu.ro the na-113crs wore LL•C rc, :•.at ~ii~c:.~ w!: were a filtcr ci3:rette, we csure 1_ucl so=~:?rat less TP14 than, say, straig:.t cigare;.tFS, Now wS.at does _ 11ir ~e an? .4. '='t1i'.al r'att•'=. A. _' L:;T::~U: l.~ou :'oa't iAs tar ei±•'r.cr? =t' g e::aicr to say than tar and nicotine. ==:F.. E~1L: :Ie wr.3 loo':ing at 2A but I wonder da %You hUve the ot%ers? p:iated them all down. ~.'~ MR. r ,7'lL : " :ziy. ' F ine. .0 CD

2 .3 4 5 6 7 10 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 15- Q. (thr. Loal) Noa, with respect to the positioning . in 2ix, ti::,Lat is- the fur.cticn, if any, of the phrase 'ligat and mild' as it appears? MtZ. FLk;Tc:iii:Rs I'm going to ob ject to the form of the question unless you qualify this witness to testify as to this. MP,. BOAI. s All right. (Mr. Boal) What was your position at the time of A. this ad? I was advertising manager of the company. Q. Did you participate in the development of this ad? Yes, sir. 1 And what was the nature of your purticipation? kexl, I indicated to you that there was essentially a two-man advertisi.n gng dzpartment, myself and my boss, and togethar we reviewed--I was in his office pract.ic3lly every time an ad c,f any sort for any bra.d carap- up along with t.,'~e agc:ncy, and so rost of this stLf+ is as iaiiiiliar Lo ms a3 my meiaory permit.:,. kre there any documants that exis::ed at Liggett & Myers that explained the reasc;niug for the choice of copy in tiie ad? A. Oh, .1 Gcu::t it vczy rnuc-1i. 25 1 c~. Tuaay, bL iore you cF:;:e ht:rc;, uict you make a search

1 2 3 .4 5 6 8 13. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 of ce:tain recorc?s that may have been existed, that do now exist ai: Liggei:t & l:yers? L. Ye3, si.r, I did. Q1. A. rr,d what did you f ind? We:ll, i fotaid two things. onQ was, since we have recently rovad all of our records from New York City to Durham, what is around is in rather huge uraaarke::i, unle::nelled, uncatalogued packing boxes. I- wer,t t2irouah those packing boxes as best I could to find pu:suant to your subpoena ads for L & M during tYtis period in which the word 'light' was us d, and anyzh:ing else as far as that is concerned, . : and also pursuzint to tLe siapoena I looked for our acivzsI%-.isiiig expezditures during the periods of these ads. I was unable to find any L & M ads, although they taust be there aEr3, up until, I guess, about 1956 :aas probably the first book I saw, some- •~~.cres in t::at peric,d. And i found a book which acivc;:cisiag in it, and tY,at is using tiie word 'liyhd:' and that's all I could find. And t-hst scrai~.jook tnat you have brought today. is all ycu cuu:Lci iLa.i reluLca to tl;e subpoena? ,,: _ , lalc2t 1;3 dll. I G::L1, , 1u A:2i:". wa3--wt:ro you a yarticipant in N O

1 2 3 4 5 6 10 12 13 14 15 16 17 .18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 most of the discussions that went to the--well, %-u3 ±iie::e aa a~cacy a~ r.a~ tiurc that repcesented LiggaCt & :•:y::rs? Yes, S:.r. ~ a:id did yoa partici13ate in i:.;-,e disc:ussion with the as,aacy? A. Yes, sir. F:.~: CR i Gbjcctiun to the form of. tho quasticn. We haven't estzOblishc:d yet that there w.:ro z.r.y ciscussions with th-a agc:zcy. 1•IR. E0AL= O:cay. Ec>al) Did• ycu have a:ly discu5sions with the (Kx . • 4ypncy? r LM P1c..t'.:y. Tsnd •w-zra you a p.2rticip"t in thcy9 discuasions? Yes, 57.+:. And c:ir: yos go over this ccry wilUz the agency time after ti:e, cr did you yo ovcr the copy with the ayc_i~y? A. Sz::.'c: Zow many dic. ycu go cvcr ts..at copy %.rith the .. _..,.•, .c.:, It was part o'7 :Ay jc:a tc r::vicw . ac.v:,rti;;ing aa3 to approve

1 2 3 4 9' 10 11. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 L.3.~ ~.M... J. - . ~ .l. :31~7 ^ ' C';~.Cr .r • . t2;i;, cLsc: it was to soparate L & M as a f iltered Cig~acetta f::o;a its cfai.af co[::petiticn which I suggested e_.-~licr v:C_c tho st::aig'aw ci:~aret:.cs, to position it scziav:..7-a the L::3.1 f1:.:•var, 1f.---'s say, c:: t::;;;;-_- c:.a_r k,x.",zds. I suspect ,f a31 rs•Yoa: is a tErmir.civyy us2d tcday more than thcu, b::L it is d::~.;crsl,:.iv..^-.. Lut they were perceived ss a cigarattes than tA 0 N O+ c 0 18 Q. 00 A. ac:vertising and to sucsgsst er,.:.nges or be of some oA: .:Vfi,` 33 h:Ljjurar,ce in some cas3s. I3:.d you Lpp_uv4-- Did you aj3p~:ova Uio copy tnat is reflected in-- ~ c::n' w tell you wl:eti:er I apprc,vod the copy. I lizaw dalm Wall I.was part of the approval process irn this copy. 1•2. F=:G1u:R= Osf the record. (bIScLt:,SIOid OFF i;1:CG:cD) . (r;z, Lo::3) llas there a rcuson for using 'light and mild' in that ad? YCs, sir. Q. 1u;a h:.3t k::.s tLe rcabur.? In 0 ~ N

I 2 3 4 5 A. Yes. t".ell, it was in fact a lower TPM. TPDi's and :.._ui: paiuxt ii, time w`re not a L:.y Yl;su:a -a.e hi..~rica:I pt3:lic. Nicotine was F_'c:::E3LL-Iy st~.:ci.aiiig wifi:. U:.ich trc:y were familiar bLt S c:~i:'t t;azik tars L•od raised its ugly head. 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19- 20 25 oi tz:r, but I wonder if-- 0 ~ H w !L- Li,i:t ar.d mild we::e piecEs of language which tended 1~castsri fcr t,le c2:oice of the specific words, ligat aa.:d mild, in that context? to c:scriba a ciy::re;.tQ as sep :rated from its conpotitiorn t:hi;.:h I szid cailier w.:re; if you will, stron5er cigartiaos. is perraaps one more a,vicws r.:azon -wi:y we also used it, and that's i be:ause it is pa:.ic o:: our l;,yo, L and M. -ch= boay copy Gi ;:i.e ad there is a listing o: scM;: of the thf::gs cY.at 1, & 14 f ilters give you, sud n•-~;::: r c:.o ia aff~ct oi filtration. Number two is qLotL, lis.:t cor.a, a mild smoke, cc^a, :--r.3LS: tl'Ic: ~+e f.iltGred out, t P C=i:: ::, a.t:r:::: is, CQLiote, much ZcJs Ii:.c:r::ir:::; t: c., L.:i':d 1i rilL"Gr ralT.oves one third of thc- s::0t:e, 2cZ.rc.5 }•Os 411 tha "::isfaction, perio::, w:yuGL::, i:Lw I L:' ic:Vf: I you to say at ty at ti,;:e tar k'"~ 1ic have that

I 2 3 4 5 6 8 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 20 if tLat icn't in f4ct ul_at you are refcrring to or wi~a~ :::~ a l is re: vl'r121~ ::o in nur:ber two? A r`10 i 3 i2.:avy pc.,,«i.+Cl~.s?:+Cl~.s? A. L'i, G's7V iL`: 53 ~. A. so, ,;i:en, - in. faci: - cYie of txw ajpp,:als of the cigarette as I uns4rstaYid it was that it did rQmove particulate rauter whuci is now }uYoir,-1 as tar and nicotine? Yea, I notice, also, in the circle un the right hand side of tue ad a3 yoa view it there is a more fairly prciaa..ze:1t much u:.L3 flavor, much less nicotine. s'aY1d I uG;u6csr ir titat ;;u9 atq moaning in terms of i,s.fi• J-i.a.1.E: Was a in 4.{ati coIlsumer of 111cOL:.1:a. ;ilis L:ct3 a `XJiu w;i.th wr.ich they were ;:atY:e+ fai,tiiliar. was a lrs::t of the cigarette C:it 1_il.•c.' S u:.ph?C} t1.'oli7:2t was r~ i_rcdients in a w..l:i pit-~~bly desirar~le. :iu=...4 s:.~ry, 'l::e «.ueh more (:.L y:.o::- ` ::. :.:._ ~ li LlvC .. t every ~..:,.. ~~....~ _ ~.....: ~;.... : i,iorial and 1..•a in tar.and 0 A r

1 3 4 5 1 11 ' , 12* 13 . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 h;: A. 21 ni-oti::e, cr ~::4h th claim thcy mi.,t,t ~•unt iS zh:. ar.3 ;aild' a.eccriptive of any of '.Lz4 csYaracLC!riatics cZ the ciga.:ette3 tbat were sola uad :.- :: L& N, a t tr.a;: ti:~e? U::n j_ ction to the form of the qtwsi:ion. no c:cfinition of 'deseriptive', Est. :;ell, •r will lcr the gucsticn ride. You ca:: z_,:mes ti:a quostion if yau•r cot>.ns.:l has no "; j :3Ct33_l. Oxay. e guLstion isO iqjain. I thtiu'j`,t I:.ad i_nsw:red that question, iia,i;) "cu~'t i'd ju,--t li;;e to hear your oap Vkay. a aa a cigarctte ;.hat it was a . s:al in the firzt. tacse ci««rettc.s w:,ic'1 taa: ::r.la~;tciln :;a. ,.il.r_9 ps.,i.1.1.ac had herLti.oFor.a L:..:4 to. C i, »_ ~;-.:a.% ..1- . G."' c: S to 1•::sition this .A ~ ~ i:.' ~ ya .:c; 1=s:: s:Jo::e, that it than its chief ~: : ':..*.:::' ..s d piece of L" N a Q O m H ~

., . 1 3 6 ?. 8 9 10 2_ 1~: ;aa;,,•:, ct :cr --:1c Y1 t:v-- oL: 1c~o :. ._ . ::I . a+~ ;::;•~ iuas w:.y to dasc_~:bc. tl:e Y=.:.t:`t3 ~r:j111) Ci! sii;; Yo= L & R cit3a• rc:tS:Cs ti.at--S ii:.ve a:<.ru t_ir`c: ads ::ur L& M in Aur,sst and zna usic if 1•cu can identify thoEe BUt:, YC3, Sir. A? 3 ri:,:t, were tl:as3 ac:s pj a(-:Ed at that time to - i:lc L cx ii ci,~aruttes? 12 13 14. 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i•.R. Ali ri.hr, :L'd ask the rcpoxtc-r to fJu tcll us taoy are I'd ask t'r;e tio matk i.:. ,.a as L:r.niii4s N, O, P. L& iA c42:i:.i,%:; 21,;, 0, V. i:ca1) „11 ric,iY::, coi.11c; YL-u--ti:::3t is tiYe reason , ,..~_ - a~~. ' •:± :±.L~tiat~.~..E.1; i d ae t --L'E~cl. and iiiy ktC''i:ivr17 of dates is dlittic Ji ;, V-:. iia'v 2 i1061--ai:c3 I•think - 1nt1Gauced k:.n3 as r: !,,ular, and thc:se ULiS uz:v iala:rt purpose. Za..~. cvplr

2 3 4 5 7 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 .: ~..•.; %t+ Whir:h at t1hat point v7 it+ t1:;,;; t, _s ;.;-_ o•.,y e;.try we riaa in the filter 0 yC:!e., S 2.i, ;:_d tY ;ods ti.:--4ras tr,e ::3aroituctian of the king -size ix,yt.aing in the iaarketnlact? Q. ~:'r~ut :~4a . t:aat? A. i&:a to Y:ring 'out a cilgarettca .;. J ~.+~1.:: ~ camc out in L:: cv:..,)etitive to t?Ne , (;31~.(::: il~ ;,*r, ui?t wrrit,tc.t po~itior.ad its ~ , fro;a M's. As a l:.a~.:~+"~, O~ 5~v.iCJ11E:i itS cigarotte c:iosc:r in icali:~:1 to t.:= :ar~.xgHt cigarettcs ptcu in ti:. mar}:et- ~~ P w V_

24 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 20 21 A. -.5 I::1:1(3 si?C cz:: i:y at that point in tl :.~r, jC.Yii,g coaaideraLle succLss ry• The c~tticr Ls s a +~ V S. J.L~4 ayo tn%;; fo_c:cs i_i Cne was tho cf tY,-.'- c;, or k:.rig uize r.l.,rjarettc:s in the and two w3s th-a eriQrc,;ance of a tii:.;;ton ci~.1u.''.'cf:irn an 85 millimuter which a~;i::~: difrixE:a:t bGv'arti.sing tact. Q. I hav:: tv:o rsorz L dds, uiaparcntly froan the 4;. u..11, froc, tl:e previous adc? A. is here, ar:d it's bEen s:~~u DZ;si.o:~ ~:;i..a ir, 1:ocEr,u:::-': a=ai Dc:cciI:..ial" of 1954, and you t.~oa3 ads? wt Ci:) .''.G A. c; l.n1 jir,gl.e m-hic`_ cu ~-)aign .4.4~ i~ N, t1j, r~: :+r _ dy cc:•oy and L• e j tays the same. H 0 . . . 4:.I:iL .. ..iiJ• f , 1 O O N m

2 3 4 5 6 ? 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19' 20 21 22 r '3 24 25 Q. In t,rn.c c t%,,,r ~?Irfrr-i 2`T, 0, and P? _~,- c:.l , _.i:,Z , z,...I :ahat is -v:: cre tre C-.i~ ~~.1..4 WFi *:C i:i.-l.~ i.V tctake sure that Y::: :a pC•slia: in time it was .~ C''.GL 7': thG f:. C:: 'r:'.'. :3tZC: a 70 milli:r.Ate'= •. ..~..... ,,.. ... _ r. ~.:'e L1 , rercrtcr to mark the tv.r~ i:.c'.s ~:. ::cb?rcon rc :crring to in his 2n.& wrd "1.a. -,"'`y~C'3 Gf qu:.•5LZ P~:f3lLt's L & M ~ 4...' Cf •~.'. ~ Vo y th r~•xe°-c::~c~• '-o ~t:e year 19y4 and • ::to L fx t: hL-,~r•rt3.Ei7ig, have you nade a : x. :i;n to C? ~~:: much was ex.pended i:~:~',_ r;:.:t tty;~c 02 a,-,~vertisinc? from which you ~~: , ... _... _. ., cr : nt orn that A. 'r'1tiCh iQ the .~'~,ole i.. of paaer for ; : : '`;_ ?_ cigarette r: of a recap

2 3 4 5 6 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ~C.C +..{.a5t ti•. vpu.Rl4d ~:.; :.: ~... • :. __ ~a.o,:..: r I susl !ct to ._ ~.:. , ... . expe::3it'JrC3 7 :::ci:: g=t.:i::t iri ti+r.3. It is I ci1bMit L 1. ..-, k:cc:.::,,.. 1 r.otcr;, fc+r ea::zmple, in, Gvq~`i;:;•; :.1):.daitcu, t}ii:1:--'Wa1l, o::a3y, Lrayia.t v;ere L« 1.1 E...oua. Dragret a7;ou:: a a:ill9.cn in chanae i:C`,:i~~~~vt i.a^stcrfield ..... .. . :.~.~ :iL rr.~i~G~. - t Lav c•2cc1:~'2R}.~.:.:. Cja::::.C: I don at ~.naL1~y l.~S v%,;o::. t i-- :.I'a:t it is vc.rY &cult, in fact, ; ; i.{,3t.,3t p=ecf...Cly v1aB . . . ; cr. L:w !:. In iJJ4 there was a t-:...1.i.. .1 C1~•:1.Ltai EI= :.MLRS`~iY rccorded for L & M Gunsra^}-e, and some a • c:..."_-r uxc c:: there wyich I --_-ads were on or '14 t!-. *zc a fivc nillicz, • C , ,.. .. ~. ~1 a si.x nill.icn, r._ "~ the r.ctkal r^c: :::zs that you are , - ~._;... r' ;.~ =~: ......... c-.:: cczi.• :. an accurate

2 3 4 5 6 7 14 15. 16* 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I l A. r.'a. uE a r..3s:ir.:.m figure w-.a cc:a;awtLo~:i to L & M pro- in in 1X)4? A. of coiAL's3, talL_._c3 Va~t v3 cs11 cc:r;:.ract at:vertising It v;Luld bc mure difficultt in +act, it vou? d Le 3TM:P~Ussi'rsl_ for us to fi nd out •; of sa1e or pro- ' u:o;:ic:.~a Aeie is absolutely no record cy ti::.ait at all. It ir:~Llcc La c?: ~sis;ult for'r::e to . r.`;.e i.::at the Gu:•~s:r.oke and . ti:a is;:cj.:c;;- s::c_ ws, a:.i.:ii I know .ware L & 1d, and I•m cc:rta:u ~:.iia --par ticipat.;,crn they may 1:c::i ].n o~ Ui:~:::r s11Cri0 list.'.:A t~1Cre. :.0 couid ii.>" that out if vie ha1 to with L Y1.. Ljr.::i Ae::---arch, ~' ~~- t-- - •~ Ib•-'.:.~! ) •~. :.•`i~:rYJ ~ wore .:.bot.t three M . as s,eTu2..21~-t, 1Qt ~. y.:.,~:. ~ twra shows, so:;tev:nre c_ x• :.+: si:.ty i"i3.:.ion dollav- ~%:. 'a A:..-.l l:V fil.11.3 L'.1" TV L -A.— . iJ ~j v..... w,d the kr:i,:A: C,P A O O 4 OW v

., . 2 3 4 5 6 ? 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 " 23 .24 25 t?:n- intcr: :-t of .l-:.....•~- Uf i.l t^.~.cV that •Iie ' ~.i::ri:-ry, I look-:.1 for our ~cu_-~cc ::il~s, a~ids frarn . a::~uad, ar.cl I haven't a:sy ay t.:a sc~.ttcrcd film or t%-:o-- v.• ;-u:.d Le t:,4 o ~::~r~:,,cLStiz cre ~2a3 in tiew Jersey tl:~ L:- t:---ia fact', «11 of oux bxomt'csst ir.sbc-.-l ia .L Zl1AJ k1-i.f: i.r1d iioi:l thCra shf.ppec.l . out i:o f: c~ s~~:~.icza, and so fc.w JI-6h: In that search of about two ycars t ;: ~~_~::i't nce3 those films ::cro And it happcns iz u dre' c: L r~:rs 16-c:riul that is V..r..3.1~. t-1ive-- w.Lai., aJ i~r .,_ ....- dcztroy4d. Thcre . _ ._I can't find any. L .,l. Ib y. ~`.~. i ~- ~C~.2 i:.i x .M'7 !.. ~e:::A u:-td i^ the ':'V ...__ ,.._ ._.. t....... c. cc, rz~=cial, as 1:~3 '.• ._ .. . . _. _ . . O m N

1 2 3 4 5 8 14 15 16 17 18 19- 2U 21 22 23 24 25 . A. i:: di ~t~rta s,ce ar ccrtz::i.nly sir:ce a.,:ea of bzoadcas;:. fM . %a_,:.~: -.~ub r:,n :iic ~'~ that t_me in in Lroa ca~.,. ~, and . ~ ~'.. M ~.f'1~1j G.r ~~i:~~ _v~_t1v . . .~'..... S ~ •iv_~v~_t1v.. ..t1v. ~1. t:~...t .. ,.. l~r.'L71tl~r Uf pY: ~.v.v Fi+.:3 Ui:tt we: e ci>p;t:.'L71t ~.;:irtt aG'.s,, 2raCd- ask .L yUu cG:: iic'c:-vac:rits? L^.Ct1J .Vi.«::.nts Placc:c: by ~Jiw~!'. t'r : u: L'xjC-7. Si "w L i, ii cia4;:2 ttcJ in '55 and ::~: i:_L~Ostt._ i'. a:k C_1o'3:: c:... +. .._.. ..i..._:.. ~ s ..~i.:s_......a..al 11 t. .~a '..Ir~GUc;`sl 2Y. nCi%_:.3ant's o1f print qL,: i:, L-J9ctt & flyers, to 1'.55 c.nd ' 56? L, 0 4ft 0 0 A w

3 4 5 6 7 11o 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . .,. A ~•- - -n tc.•.vis3.on ~ u. .. .. , .: 1.u v: Ir-29, that is, 2S ra• .re i^^J~• •• er . th_~.a :,~:an trA ac~s -. , ~ .. 1.. V-; :!: v-ar-n as 1954 uds. Is- that so? A. t::•.: fa:::t placc., th.ese ~- ~. 2::1t 'r `t:::c~:,ti 2, :':~:at 13 the fourth one, ...: ~ ` i ~.r ... ,. - ~:. y~. .. ~. Car.l-aiCT13 which we in 2n eadh 3.iistence --- ~-- - :~;;:_::~~ 1 two t}:ingn -a: : Y, -i,nt Zrovr ab$? i.ty I:_ . * , ::_ .. _ , . . , ~f t*~o: ^ were .n Z::K;er3 i.•:c'.CtlcdllV , '. ~ .^ ... i~ ' lC Co~1 t~[.{ ,~ •are prcbably-- '.~ 3ru back cover ads.

1 31 -A 1. .~! .tt:! . __.:; at 2-ist in th•,;,c, the rore t- .. . .._. ..:, .r. ..- . 4 5 8 9 .10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 C:~lly the c'3ve1'.tial ., . ,~ (;.~i•~`~ \~ . .... ~..: ~.... i~. l.•.. s.i A. U . ~ pcr t:_ ye~, sir. ~ . .. .. _pe: s ;: to have been . 3 t:c.rc =n a per,c:il notio.tion, ~•`,at is ?lso rePro- a-:: '.r_ .. ~: _ cf t-'ic ::irrlI of a~ vc•:: ti:>; ng you were °ie of L & ri filtar ~~...~.:.a/~. ~l ..~J~ (.7 1..+~_J..~... ...-. :~il it is Fcmeiahat A. , 6c:::! ~ -F-n : crne of these other cAh.;chi reems to ~C :Z:i:'.ayz ow this Campaign y:._s a a big red letter uLy, -A ::--, a^-I I can''!r tell c sFt *,:e tAtiing. :_:'-nticall but the .'. ? . ^ll:'"p °r. .--I couldn' :: sk the reporter ~i:-:: }ion.

. *6 1 I 2 3 4 5 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 32 ' (lu.RKED FOR ID::I:TIFICATION) A. I just c.on't happen to remcsLner that campaign. Q. (ts. Boal) I have tlircz other L & M ads in which I A. don't have any particular date. I!ra asking if you recoanizc these ads ar:d, . iF so, if you can give us an approximate date as to wh.cn they were placed. Well, I can come close to dating them but I certainly couldn't be precise. Well, could you give us an approximate date? well, okay. These two ads here stand out from all the rest of the campaigns so.they had to be running in contex` with all the other ads which were in, what, '55. i Z•iR. BOAL: All right, with respect to the two that you think were around 1955, I would ask the reporter to A~ark those as 2AA and 2BB. (MARKED FOR IDE:iTIFICATION) (mr. Boal) l:aw about the last one? Thic one appt-~ars to be a little bit of an odd ball. It dor:,n't scem to belong to any campaign with which I w'n familiar or one in which we have seen previously. Trte copy is obvioualy L & ti ccpy and L & M language. I surFact this was for a specific kind of publica- tion, but trat's on ly a guess. I probably could 0 m A A

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12. 13 14- 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. 33 co.;:o close on datizg it b--cause it had to run at this ::an` p:.riod of ti .=, too, 154, 055, because they deal with these--I notice Mrs. Laddie Sanford appr-:.aring in this ad ticye. Could you give us the L & M cxhibit nu:nber? In 2AA. And she also arpears In this ad here, and since those contracts run for about a year with these personalities it had to be around that point in t ime. N'~Et. BOAL: I'd ask the reporter to mark that as Defendant's L & M Exhibit 2CC. • (MARhED FOR IDE.'~TIFICATION) (N'.r. Boal) In 1955 and '56 what was--do you have an y k.rjowled3e as to the approximate volume of advertising expenditures directed to L & M? A. '._ 955 and 156. k'ell, again, I'm going to have to estin3te because thcse figures are no more availablo than the '54 and '55 onos, but it had to be in the neigYrbor :.cd of si;;tecn cillion dollars. !m. FI,ETC:-:ERs Say that again, picase. A. In the neigl°.;rorrood of sixtcon million dollars. i:R. FL1:TC-M.R: One, six? A. Gne, si.x. Q. (:L. P:.~zi1) nid that r:~l rescnt--vjas the L & M v

34 2 3 4 5 6 13 . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 . 22 23 24 25 advertising b•adnet aoarl up at that time, Imean, as co~parGd to i:r::vious years? A. t:oll, hcre ar-ain, that's hard to tell. a.nswer to that is :,yes. Q. In terms of Liggctt & T•tl•er: cirarettes, L & M rank? A. Iri terms of wHat? Voluwr:c c:f cirarettes sold? . For us? Qr Yes. I think the how d id A. In '5G? You kncw, obviously the record is the record and it is where it is, but:I think in '56 it was Q- 00 probably at that point still our number two brand bEhind c;.osterfields. Do you have any r.:collection of the number of units that would be at that time? go. It would probably be in the area in the area of tv.an::y billion. Units of ci5:aettes? Units of c :garcttes. I hsve two other ads that headline: They say it couldn't be done, that appear to have been placed in 1959, and I as:; you if you recognize those two? A. Yeah, I do. O O A O

. 2 4 5 6 ? A. ~ 11 Q. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 . 22 23 Q. 24 25 35 Arid could ycs c::plain H:2at that--t.!as that a car.:ptaisa? This U: s a car.ipa; gn. In my hur-.~ile cpinion one of the best ca°:ps i.yns that L & M ever ran, and it ran for about the longest period of ti-ine. This thing ran for aLmost a year. Okay, 'This thir.g', you are referring to--I ask the reporter to mark it as Dafendant's 2DD and 2EE. (iSA1tIr'k'•D FOR IDEi3TII' ICAT IDN) (I4r. Boalj how, referring to DefEndant's L & M Exhibits 2DD and 2EE•, I note that in the most prominent body copy, in the lower half of tre ad, it say;;: Ta e cigarette tliat's low in tar with more taste to it, with the "L" in stylized typo. and tr.a in stylized type, and was that descriptive of the cigarette at that tirme? M, FLETt:tiERs May I have the question agair.,. pleaSC, (QvL:,M.a xrAD) I-t. EC11L; Let tr:c~ rel;hrasQ it. PL-4. F LETCi:..^.R: 0::ay, f ine, Good, (i.sr, Eoal) L•~fcndant's Ea.hi,';;t 2DD has the state"::ent. ~uote, a civayette that's low in Fror~ir.c:::- tar w3.th tasta '1-o, it, excla:,:ation point, close quote.

A.. 36 wa3 that descriptive of t: e cigarettc at that tir,e? 7•rcll, nu: '~.:r cne, 'prominont' is your word. There are a nt: nber of tY:ings t.hat ara promincnt in this ad. It is certainly one of the most prominent eltnents in it. 'Low in tar with rcoro taste to it' is ac'vnrtisf.ng IanguF.ge. Te e play herQ is obviously on the "L" and the "m", which is our logo. 'Low in tai•' refers to the fact that it is . lower tr:an some other ciga_ettes, undoubtedly 4:inston, and certainly again, the straight cigarettes. 'r•~oro taste to it' is just advertising langLage. I say it is . descriptive but I c'on't kncxi whether the world 24 25 A. I would agree with me. i But certainly in the cor.tes:k as coraparc:d to Winston. it is accurate that it is, that the cigarette was low in tar? Ccmpz--ed to v1ir.stcn it was low in tar. S;hether it had rere taste than Ifia:stcn or not Iwosldn't want to eAe=>ate. pfl yau h.xAJe 4: y recollccticn as to the ar„ount of r.ioncy that t:-as ex; ended in that c: ;:paign? I!ve gct to give you the sG m^ answcr. That' c the be;,t of ny -recollection. t;e were spsr.ding, you l:n^:a, at tY.at sar..c--at that saine--fiftecn, sixtcen, %A 0 N 0% D O O ..i O

L . 1 -2 3 4 5 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22. 23 .24 25 in all t_.e uc:verti.siT:g that year? . C11, 1•c s, yes, 37 :>cvcr.t__~a : illion dollar3 nv:.-ber, and I can't got a gc~od r:;a r:a+© on it. ~• S:ts tl:e sn~ae, e-as:er,tially, t:~s sar, 3 theme reflected JL In the body copy there is refercnce to L & M's use of, quote, the lig:it, co:ua, mild premium tobaccos, . end quote. I wcndcr if you could tell us what that I establish ny right to say so. A. - IS ber yo tsr pardon? . *:R. FLErCCERs I take it that your fa:ailiarity MTith this advertising and your participation in it is te e sau e as you had steted a few years earlier? Yes, sir. As a cor-pany we have always prided ourselves on the quality of our tobacco. Like many othor comf.anics we have Emr•hasixed the fact that it is mild. The phraseolo<3Y 2:cre, light, mild Prc^:iLm tcbaccos, is cizccriptive, or in advertising sense, at least, de5eriptive of the kind of tobacco-': that we pLt in our cigarette. I think in this case it is aa c=prasis pe.shaps on--on the quality but, s4cc*:d3rily, a continued su;;,astion that L& M as a cigar~tte ic li(-y:tcr, •r~ildcr, less in the, you knc-+, , -o m v. ~

38 2 3 4 5 6 ? 9 ;. it's 'r:ard to use aavext•isir.g worc3s to pinpoint t:Lir:;:, iut let's say sar~.:~:=~at loss strong than so:; e of oar ot%;;r cer:~_-'.:iticn, we were pvsitioned in P: :ving : o:a-h''r:at lowcr in t:ie scale of taste per- ccraior_ than rr.any cic,a_,~-ettcts in tl:: cigarctte field, C~r ;~.".'cEr}..icn Es tein3 rore in tl,e area for the r.calt.h cGr.-Mious cor.suc :=r is rrobably carried on from Chcse days up vntil Fresent, t_es. Bcal.j And in that cc-aLe is it co mipatible with the phrase: low in tar, wh3.ch appears in the more Fro^:.i..L•c?2t size in the-- 14 A. In an adv:rti3ing ser.se it ce-rtainly would be more 0 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 c:.: ~ 3::ible. I t would be coxpatible with that. I:..ave 1_c:xe a groLp of acvcrtise:r:_nts directed to Ca ,is cig~srettes, and I'd ask if you can idAntify t: ase a; vertiserar:ts? A. 1'es. I'cs. ~. j':crt3 tF ose a0verti;;Exents placed by your company? To From:,t° tho sale of Casis cigarettes?- E.. Y,as, s ir. Appro:ci;nZ tely what period of- time were these ads r ~: n? 25 1 Ai2. scr.L; I'd ask the reporter to mark those

L 2 4 5 6 7 8 13 14 39 , a+;..l:+bitd 3A v rouf3. 3G. (.'•:Ait'r..a3 FO;t IL:. i11rI:a.TIJ.v) A. T;.::se ads are '53 a::d 'S9. 0.1 (t;--. E.:al) t.c::erring to E:yl-ai.k,it 3A, could you exlaain to us how Oasis was positioned? Qr Betore you 4oth4t, was that an early ad for Oasis? T"r.-s loc•ks to ra~s to be one of the earliest ads for oa,is. It may bo introc;uctory pericd. I don't rt=zler whon Oasis was introduced but I think it wus aroL:nd 1958, sc~e~~ricies in there. All rir:;.t, can you tell us how Oasis was positioned? : Ye:.h. SalE:n had preceded us and I guess most other r.ecnthol cic;arcttes--no, I gua ss that's not quite an acctu:4te statemer.t. Eut certainly fro;p an ar:vertising point of view I think SalEm built the market, ana it became aprarent to us, and I guess 19 .20. . 21 22 23 24 25 the rest of t:e world, that thcre was a menthol murket out Uicre. Ws follocYc.d Salem into the r.ar::ct- place. r.nd as our point of differe:nce we suggusted a couple of thinrs pe rhaps. One, that we were fresher in various ways because that was a logical ncn~}.ol exprc:::sion. And, tv:o, w3 wcrc as it says rat.`.::r l::oa:incr,tly in the ad, 'Less tars per puff', 4 O m V W

40 ar.•-_' thz.:t :yas pr:..ttv r,•.ch eo]id'" anainst 5alert wh3ch was tr:L• chief co-:rl.t;ition at that time. So we ~7sitio_:^3 osrrclvoz as being so;:e-,*hat below Salem in the arc:a of health percePtion and equal to them in t-::.ts and freshness and menthol cooling c`iaracaeriztics, a;!d all of those other menthol `-~.^+~ CG 8. Q. I take it by the use of 'less tars per puff', by your choice. of the, use of that language, that by this ti.-;~e the public hr-d become more conscious of tar? A. 'I am cc:r tain that's so but in what way I don't re-mcniber. Is there a rcasoa.For the use of the word 'light' in that ad, referring to 3A, for example? r R. FLrTC*-.Sf~'t Ac,*air., can we tie this? I~. SGAL: Sure. Q. (:j.r. Boal) h"hat was your role in this? Frecisely the sarce role in.this period of time for all cigarettes that I had for others. My role, inci- dently, c i3.^ •t c?t?.ngr as far as advertising approval and developmeat go^s until 4rpr.oximately 1972. c-i:ay. Was th^re a rcascn for the use of.'light' in that •:.c3? 0 . ao V

2 3 4 5 9 10 ~ 41 A. h_ s a ca .:lity. It's a pretty. ~c cd Cc5crJ.-':.+ve with cool, It aleo tcir:;Is to ttL£ fact t';at we Lad leas tars rr•r pr.ff *_':a n cn.it} :r cicur 1•ti.e, or others. P=r'"r.rring to rxh; xAt 3B, I you w4.Ft; ~r or nat that o^e of yoc:r caz l.ivr maga:.ine advertisc::,.::nts fcr Gasis c'r=.r4ttos? le:,. V.:.i s is a ragvzine cxmpaign that ad peared at ti:-Le Ea~a tbie aa this did. yas, as a matter of fact, withi.n tc:o mcr.ths of each other. 12: 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 D,^.an the y~ord ' 1icht' in 33 have the aarae 'function a; it di3 in coz=ictian with 3A? A. W.a r:sQ it a l£~ttle diffFrei:tly here but tr,a i.& oscer:+ iail.y t.e nF.ne. I'`aka it 3D is an ad of the sa:ae charactcr as 3C? I t a}:e it CSat 3C is a p_ int advc,: tisz.:.ent of the &a::e cl::;rz: tc-r as 33, as you have c7e: cribed it? A. It'~; t;.e %•: it:3 x~: i e: cac:. to 3r) Y. . ic;j apraar s to be a LOOK Of ~:'nt:::;:. ':+ 15, 195C'. I act: . 1•t;;~ if ti;is a diff~.rcr.t ca,paxrn? A. sii, A:;;i . t--hcw L?iu it ::.iffc:r frw% t1,e cacr:paicn tlxat ~ tr. , 1 y~1 1: _ti:l~ l.t S. C ? N . o+ a 0 m V ~

0 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ti:..l.., i; :. c..~; plaz:e stc-ms Lrom T}.::: r_preser.tcc3 in 3D It: ' r. nG.7 a r.c :r :.oc?:, a ncw photGy::al:hy, a t;:c l:osit:or:ing c+ Uasia { c, a:; ou_ at_c:.Pts to pea ; t in tl:o MarY.f tplace, ar-- i.~~.n:tical ~ . Itr::e it that T`:.~ahit 32 is the sam.: tl-pe of.ca:ap.aign .a-_. 3,? s~':. ;,~ 3Ad ,~iJ~ Else fi~1s :;a:aa advertising campaign. to t'rie tt.o c:.::+p:;icns that are re2reser.te3 by 3A, B, and C on the or.o Y:3 nd and 3D and 3E on C.: othi:r hand, do you have any idea of tt.3 a~-,.ou:,t of that we+t• -c: p::r.dc;? in promotion of Oasis ci;,~rofit~ s? O:a,', here :•:3 Y,ava a i:.^.ilar kinds of record kr~~;aing prr~hlex.s, I foknd an Oasis fi51_e. klk: t cT:~,d I ao with it? onz:y, my ric•inory is going - : ^ te ~ •1- °L~, I ~l ~1 : a. T :):~: t^3 ` the piece of papcr i'.~ir....:~ . h~~.. I i,-arc h_.•: ~._e2y--t;:are it is. In '58 we h:.vo rec: --dea on *he eY.Per,ditexcs 4 ntillion, nine, a;d in ' ~9 fcar raillion, ci;_•~it. I hasten to say t*,::t t?zis 4o so cjes not re+l::ct certain televicicn a m J ~

1 2 3 4 5 6 10 11:' 12 13. . 14 15 23 • 24 A. t ialiy i. :.' Ed iti IU1Ca ": ii 1 1t...r I iiuj-:: jicirc LL 11 i:::hi.bits 3F ar:3 3G, asltl 'acit: uvi:S +:Ll~s =E~?r::i:~:::i i2 C:1.iiE2CAt CaiRj~d].~i;~ A. Y.L'Li, 1'h1 il:i'i: ao ;,::ie t::at lthis r::pre:.c:I`.ts a Ct21A- pai3n at all ia a t•r4rs ca..:Yaicjn riensa. W-.:at 4r+cs it represent to you? ~~.,C ae ~: ~r,:--lactis l:::e %:o:eY ads w1hic:h wc had go=t~.u tc;a :.ec to ::.a,.e sj;ecix:ic points, 1i::e doL:aiang in t: ,i.Cty 4aY ., ~x~ich is cl:viously r.ct a nrtd i-6c;z' : i;i; ~w what wa Lre trying . . .: . t:Q wo hcr'~. Z?erE a ja].n, you :.ncw, we were plLying Latiis ta::4::s you away ixQM tY.c .:3 a car.:dr 3iyn " :;, ar.u or.v;ously ~:a u_s il zt1=r orn it a little bit hsre bccausc: ur3 have a ;::i3 w:r ucz iiiL: tra tions to portray ~. _ _ . ~sas...: 15 ::a.C tCS1:.:.i:.A of tr :{tie.Y:1 'i1C~iltcr' aad tv:lat in Ex`abits 3F ~ :.s ".*iRut, in terms of I l:uve givcn fou 25 . .._. :.'..o" l4l 'v.......a. ::ti: V.', r'.: tY~~1:~.3 to put Ga.e~als in the

44 8 A. raar}:etplace. There are a couple of other uses of tho wzrd 'lightly' khere, in these cases, whereas th,_~y may, because wo used it for another sense, .sug3est so:r.cthing, but that may be advertising justification. In one it iss lightly cool with menthol mist, which just simply means that because there is mist on it, it is lightly cooled as against 9 14 15 16 17 18 19- 20 21 22 23 24 25 .heavily cooled. It probably refers to an amplitude of menthol in this case:. And in this second ad where characteristically we don't keep our copy consistent, it's the lightest mist of cooling, soothing menthol, so it says the same thing in a different code. Is Oasis still being sold? Yes, sir. Is this an E:xample of the wrapper which is used on the packages of tho Oasises as it is currently sold? It looks like it. It's a change from this packago as you note. It-'s a change from the pac;:age-- Eo--yeah, it's got those palm trees. --shown in the advertiaci; ent which is identified as ExAiibit 3F? A. It's ti:e same. 0 ae ~ ~

4 20.. 21. 22 23 24 We are not advertising Oasis at all, it was then? 45 Is the positioning-essentially the same today as Q. It is still being sold? $ It is still being sold. - MR. BOALs I'd ask the reporter to mark the wrapper for Oasis as Exhibit 3H, (MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION) (Mr. Boal) I have here a group of advertisements for Duke cigarettes, and I'd ask you if,you can identify those.ads, and if you can identify them, if you place theni'in chronological order, if there's any significant difference chronologically, but if they are all part of the same campaign at the same time, I don't think the order means too much. Yes. . Yes, these are Duke ads. No, I am not so sure I can place them in chronological order, or I don't think it makes any difference however. Okay, they all ran-- --approximately in a limited time span? Yeah. MR. BOAL: I ask the reporter to mark that 2-5 as Exhibit 4A- through 4B. .O%

46 0 .(MARKED FOR IDFNTIFICATION) (Mr. Boal) With respect to Duke, and if you want to refer to Exhibits 4A through H, please do, what was the positioning of Duke? Okay, Duke was born as a high filtration cigarette. It had rather low TPM numbers. I forget what they were but they are in the area of 12 probably. Had a very long filter and a recessed tip. This cam- paign represented by 4A to wherever it stops-- Is a--is I believe the second Duke campaign. The first was a, of which there are no ropresentations . j , .here,.was a fairly large campaign which was on television, and also in print. This campaign I believe was in print alone. And I also think was in newspapers alone, and certainly all these ads are. The campaign expenditure was not huge, the number I got on this.one was,$84,000.00 and it could be -accurate. It went into najor markets, or maybe even a major market, I don't know which. But all of these happen to be New York ads. Memory says they went into more than New York but I wouldn't swear to that. MR. FLETtHERs They were established when?

• 47 (Mr. 8oal) Could you tell us when?. Yeah, 1962. What else? Does the-=was the phrase: the longer the filter, the lighter the taste, tend to have any meaning? well, it plays directly in advertising language to its high filtration qualities, of which this cigarette was an entry. Yeah, Vantage I think is about--maybe a little lower than that. I suppose anybody would, you know, pick Vantage, the numbers of Vantage? that about positioned against, say, what is today You.say--you mentioned 12 as the LTPM, or LTP, is a TPM number and start categorizing brands from there.- I would submit,.-although I'm sure there iss no bible on this, that below 12 puts you solidly into the high filtration area. with reference to 4D, was there a reason for the use of the phrase: for a light smoke? Yeah. I submit the use is rather obvious. It is a .high filtration cigarette and a light smoke is about as descriptive as you can get. I'm talking as an advertising man, of course. As you can get for a high filtration cigarette, or certainly one of the better descriptions and, hence, it is in our copy. o A @ O m m ..

0 1 .2 3 4 5 48 Do you know whether or not smokers perceive-- perceived Duke as a light smoke? I can't-- MR. F7IETCHERs I'd object to the form of the question.unless you can establish the man's qualifi- cations to answer the question. .The way he began starting to answer sounded like I might not object to the answer. Well,' you're not going to object to the answer because there's no way that I can substantiate the fact that consumers perceived of Duke as light.' MR. FLETtHER: I think we're on the same wavelength, Mr. Robinson. Thank you: They:certainly perceived it as a high filtration (Mr. Boal) Was it intended to be perceived as a MR. FLSTCHERs By whom? (Mr. Boal) By Liggett & Nyers in its advertising? Is Duke currently sold? No, I don't think we sell that, do we? I think it's off the market. My attorneys advise me that I am in error. It's a low volume cigarette.

r 1 0 2 4 5 --in other magazines-- Yes. <~- --in approximately the same•period of time? hbat is the meaning of the word 'light' in that advertisoment? Okay, in this case, since I told you earlier that my participation in terms of copy and copy approval expired in approximately '72, and this is a'74 ad, O m W 49 Q. I have here a Lark ad and ask if you can recognize that Lark ad? Yes, sir. And has that ad been placed by Liggett & Myers? Yes, sir. In print advertising? MR. BOAL: I ask the•reporter.mark the Lark The advertisement that has been identified as Defendsnt's L& M Exhibit 5 appears to have been run i in NEWSWEEK on March 25, 1974. I ask you is that represontative.:of adl3 that were placed-- . . . Yes.

i. : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 . 25 .50 and whereas I am totally familiar with Lark since I helped introduce it in the market and its history to date, this specific ad-I had no part in actually making or approving. Q. well, in view of your knowledge of the history of Lark, can you give us your best explanation of use of the word 1light•? ~R. FLRTCHER= Uota my ob jection, MR. BOAL: You can answer the question. the MR, FLETCHER= If his counsel says so. A. You know, I think in this case, since you have picked on a word rather than the thrust of a campaign, it would be purely speculative on my part, although maybe accurate, as to why that word is in there, and I-think in that context it would probably be fairer if I did not answer, Q. .(Mr, Boal) Do I gather that you have a problem A. ~ . witiT characterizing Lark as a light cigarette? No, I do not. You do not? No, Q. You do not know the context in which the word was used in that ad, is that correct? No, I think I know in context of what it is used 0 CD CD r

. 3 4 5 6 but since I had nothing to do with its positioning or phraseology in this thing, I cannot say,with certainty,say that the copywriter had in his mind what I've got in mine. All right, even though you may not be able to do so with certainty, can you give us your best judgment as to what.it is? 9 10 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .21 22 23 24 25 MR. FLETCHERs .1%Tote my objection. MR. BOAL: You can still answer the question. A. Lark, whereas it does not perform in the areas of TPAi,.: has -.been perceived, and rather successfully, as operating in the so-called health area of cigarette.~. This is obviously largely because of the characteris- tics of the charcoal filter, and this particular charcoal filter. There is a physiological_-function of charcoal that tends to smooth the smoke, that again tends to help place it in that area; Lark's taste characteristics are quite different than other cigarettes, presutrlably because of that charcoal, too. 11Te have had several advertising campaigns and several campaigns with Lark dealing with its ability to perform in a high filtration area which is dominated by consumer perception by TPM numbers. Lark's success, however, was born right after the ~ 0 N F

1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 52 first Surgeon General's report because of these characteristics of its filter. Consequently, from time to time we have positioned Lark in that area. The use of the word 'light', which I submit is.not a Lark word and not one which has often found its way into Lark advertising, is suggestive of the position- ing that it has in the marketplace. MR. BOAL: This Chesterfield ad--off the ~ record. (DISCUSSION OFF RECORD) MR. BOALs I'd like to ask the reporter to mark this as Defendant's ]E•r.hibit, L & M, lE. (MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION) (Mr. Boal) Are you familiar with Winston Lights and Marlboro Lights? A. Unh-hunh (AFFIRliATIVE RESPONSIs). MR. BOAL: I have a package of Winston Lights and Marlboro Lights, and would ask the reporter to mark Winston Lights as Exhib it 6, Defendant's L & M Exhibit 6, and Marlboro Lights as L & M Exhibit 7. (L~`•ARKED FOR IDELvTIFICATION) (Mr. Boal) Are Winston and Marlboro brands com- petitive to L & M and Lark? 25 1 A. Winston and Marlboro? m ~ o,

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 il 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20- 21 22 23 24 25 Yes. As a competitor what does--does the word 'Lights' in rtarlboro Lights have any significance to you? Yes, they have significance to me. what is that significance? Well, number one ia what the two brands of cigarettes are telling me and the American consumer relative to 53 Q. Yeah. A. Q. . their advertising, to which I am obviously exposed. MR. FLETCHER: By the way, note my objection. A. These are brand extensions which is a rather com:~non phenomenon in the cigarette industry. These two ciga- rettes happen to be lower in tar and nicotine than their father or mother, whichever you want to call it, are. They are distinctive cigarettes from their parent. Q. (Mr. Boal) You refer to the parent, is that the. Marlboro 85 and the Winston 85? A. Marlboro and Winston would be-categorixed as full flavor cigarettes, if you will allow that expression, and operate very strongly in that area. That is the parent I am referring to. Theme cigarettes are lower in tar and nicotine than the parents. They are of, consequently, of lighter lower taste characteristics I O m C1D V

1 54 I 2 4 5 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 .20 21 22 23 24 25 than the parents and, obviously, hence the word - 'Lights'. I asked the question only with respect to Marlboro Lights but I think you answered it with respect to both Marlboro and tlinston Lights, is that correct? A. Right, as far as I'm*concerned it's synonymous, yeah. I haven't the slightest idea what the relative TP14 content between the two of them are. .A. when you say synonyanous, the use of the word 'Lights' in conjunction with the parent brand name, is that correct? Yes. r Does Liggett & Myers have a lowered tar and nicotine line extension for any of its brands of cigarettes? No, sir. MR. BOAL: Okay, I have no further questions. EXAMIMTION BY N:R. FLETCHER s Q. Has Liggett & Myers ever considered a lowered tar and nicotine brand extension? A. I think that's--that's probably privileged informa- A. tion and I don't think I should answer that. Do you know the answer? Yes. I know the ar.swer. 0 m aa m

1 2 4 5 6 8 10 11' 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 All right, isn't it a fact that Liggett & Myers has considered a low tar and nicotine extension for Lark cigarettes? MR. ROSS: This line of questioning I do not understand because it is not really germane to the subject. ,. MR. FLETCHER: Oh, you'll understand it very shortly. Are you instructing the witness not to answer? . MR, ROSS s Yes. Q. (N,r. Fletcher) Do you S:now whether Liggett & Myers has made any investigation.into--I'm sorry. Do you know whether Liggett & Myers has sought legal counsel s as to whether or not it could use the brand name: Lark 'Lights? I don't know that, no. You don't know whether or not they did? A. No, s ir: Q, Could you find out? A. I suppose I could find out. Would you find out and put the answer in the transcript of the deposition? THE WITLr'ESS s Will I? MR. ROSS s No. 0 cn A . r 0 , CD QD ~o

t . 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10. 15 16 17 18 19 20 • 21 22 23 24 25 56 MR. BOAL: Are you instructing him not to? riR. ROSS t Right. MIZ. FLBTCRERs You are instructing your witnass not to answer that question? = MR. ROSS: That's correct. Mt. FLETCHER: Would you state the reason? MR. ROSSs You're talking about corporate policy which in this case-- . ~ MR. FLETCHER: No, I'm not talking about corporate policy. I'm talking about a- specific corporate action. MR. ROSS: We1l,.I think that's privileged J because of the attorney-client relationship. MR. FLETCHER: Would you take the position that it was privileged if the inquiry had gone to representatives of another tobacco company? MR. ROSS: From any tobacco company. From any ccmpany, period. MR. FLETCSERs Pardon me. MR. ROSS: Yes, MR. FLETCHER: You would take the position that if Liggett & Myers counsel had asked Philip 24orris 'counsel their feelings on the. Eub ject of the . use of Lark Lights, that it would still be privilegedi O

~ ~ 1 I 57 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12. 14. 15 MR. ROSS: I don't know whether they have done that orr not. In my opinion it would be. I don't kno~ whether we have or whether we haven't but if I were .instructing, I would say that we probably should not answer that question. MR. FLETCHER: Well, what would be your ground? MR. ROSS: Well, I think it's--well, it would be my position that it would be corporate policy as . ,\ . to the fact, you know, how we go and how we proceed should not be discussed with competitors. : rRt. FLETCHER: Well, I will represent to you that it is my understanding that outside counsel i that I can't substantiate. purporting to represent Liggett &myers have inquired of our firm as to the position Philip V;orris would have taken if.Lark Lights were to be marketed. Now are you claiming that-- MR. ROSS: 17ell, you're making a statement 11R. BOAL: Is that a written communication? MR. FLETCHER: . No. MR. WILSON: This was an oral-- . MR. FLETCHER: Of course. Now are you taking the position that that communication would be privileged? ~~~

I 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 58 MR. ROSS: ti;ell, you're certainly making an assumption that it actually took place. : MR. FLETCEER: What I'm trying to do is ask the question which will ascertain if it took place but I'm giving you the answer that I understand will be elicited so that we can get a clear state- ment as to privilege if you are claiming any. MR. BOAL: But I don't think these people .~ have any knowledge as to whether or not any such communication occurred. NSR, FLLTC.RER: Well, the next question, of course, is can they find out, but I think at the i moment we have this privilege hurdle and that's what I'm trying to either get out or fall flat on my face trying to get over. MR. ROSS: We may can find out. MR. FLETCHER: I beg your pardon. MR. ROSS: I say we may can find out, I don't know. I don't know who made the inquiry, the alleged inquiry. MR. FLETCHER: You know who your independent trademark counsel are? MR. ROSS: Certainly. MR. FLETCHER: Aad you know who to talk to

1 2 3 4 5 6 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 .20 21 22 23 24 25 59 ' there to find out if the inquiry was made? MR. ROSS: • Certainly. rtR. FLETCHER: All right, would you find out? MR. ROSS: Well, it's a question of would I find out and would I give the answer to the inquiry. MR. FL3:TCSER: _ Well, the first question is: would you find out? MR. ROSS: I don't see the point. MR. FLrTCHERs I submit that it's clearly relevant and material since the object, or at least one of thc issues in this case is the protectability of the term 'lights' as.a cigarette brand name. r . MR. ROSS: Okay, what are you proposing? MR. FLETCHERt I'm just proposing that you ascertain whether the inquiry was made and that the answer be put into the transcript of this deposition, which-seems to be the handiest thing that can be done. MR. KOACHt Yes, we can ascertain whether it has been made but we won't be able to answer it because it is privileged. MR. FLBTCIiER s How is it pr iv ileged? MR. KOACH: Between ourselves and our outside counsel. MR. FLETCHER: Pardon me? 0 m ~ w

60 2 3 4 ? 8 9 10 12 13 14 15' 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. KOACi1: Between ourselves and our outside counsel. FIR. FLETCHER: I haven't asked about anything between yourselves and your outside counselt I've asked about your outside counsel and the rest of the wor ld so f ar. MR.. ROSS: You're asking us to find out from • our outside counsel though. WR. FLETCHER: I'm asking you to find out from your outside counsel what they may have said or asked-somebody ccmpletely outside of Liggett & Myers. I'm going one stop at a time. i MR. KOACIi= All right, and I'm saying that any conversations between ourselves and our outside counsel would be privileged. MR. FLETCHER: I'm not asking about any con- versations betvreen--oh, you're saying outside counsel's report to you would be privileged? MR. KOACH: Yes. MR. FLETCHER: ito, -I'm simply asking, and I don't care what the source is, what your agent may, have done, and I don't see any privilege attaching to that. Now it's very possible, indeed, it is my understanding that outside counsel subsequently gave

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 25 61 some advice, and I intend to ask about that in a moment and I'm sure you will have an objection there. MR. KOACH: Yes. MR. FLETCHR: But let's go back to step one first. Can we find out if outside counsel made the inquiry?. MR. KOACH: We ara able to f ind out. MR. FLETCEER: All right, would you answer +_hat?. MR. KOAGH: No, I would not. MR. FLETCIiEI3: And your grounds are-- M~Et. KOACH: h'hat we had already stated once i before about the privilege. . HR FLETCHER: That that would be the attornay-I client privilege? MR. KOP.CH s Yes. MR. FLETCBER t Al l r ight. Now, secondly,. I would ask what, if any, advice outside counsel gave to Liggett & P~fers or, indecd, any other counsel may have given to Liggett & Myers. MR. BOAL: I think that is clearly privileged. M FLETCHER: I don!t think that is Reynolds'-- rIR, ROSS: Go ahead and finish the question. ~ 0 N a r 0

I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 ' 23 .24 25 62 ask, Eacondaril1, for t;:e cc,;;;::-:nt , oy ar;y i:nica'cion from outside coua5cA to -L.; e:go;.t & 1:`rcr;s or any counse]l to Liggett outsi.c:E or ll:siue, with respect to the lrotect~:~~ility of 'Lic ht:,' as a brand nac.e for cic;azetres. P;P.. RGF.cH: we v-ot:ld object to that on a p:: ivilegcd ground. MR. Ff•ETCUR: t 11 right, now nay I go off the record for a mcment. (DISCUSSION OFF R: coRn) 2=u~, I~'L?,TG~il'.R: Back on ;:2:e record, l4e can l agrcw zii: any rate, whatet-er t;~o outcome of my p:: e:vi.ou;.- ;uectien is, can w~:- not, i•:r. Roliinson, 4httt tre3e are no Lichts? ~. 11.11 riaht. Fine. You are here un,4er a subpoena toaay, ic t:.ia c:crrect, 1iz. Roblinson? xcs, sir. Q. 1:r.d d:.a yu u tali; vith P.t:.ynU? c? s' u':.torneys befor2 a, :p ca; i: c~ r cr e to:iay? r r ~'... j. .^.J , .1 lr' Q- Did Y. u revieW tI-,3 tcst:::;.ny ycu wcre going to give tedlay w :i.h 2Zeyrlolc:s? X; 0 ~ .o C7%

1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 63 A. Did X wh3t? ~r .;evic-a ::hl:~ t~~ti ao:~y yc-u wcYe goinr, to give today with t lln I'.cynolc.: attorncys? A. I dcn't h:ncw 1:hat 'roview the testl.mony' is. Did I review these ads, for example? Q. Did ycu revicw the ads? A. +'es, 51.r. . Q. Did you review the questions that they were going to ask. regarding ti;c:r ;--some, all, or r.one.? A. Thr:y are certainly rome. A,. Diu ~ ~~~.~ 1"~~~.Ly ~~•a any ~tL to -vQu a.°s to how the questions taould be answorod? . + ! A. ;:;onc =.;:~~ tiscccrcY. QQ. So cvc,~:yi:.}tM:lg you haili sai:.'+d is c(?ie-nletoly on your cr"c'2 A. Ycv s I si::. ~. Had y.^.u said it b^fore to the Reynolds a4tornFys? ~. ~. :e. I su: p~ct sc:::~:. jilic'1t in yoLi':' t'icw, Z:_:. Ii6b1.YiSGI2, is a light cigarette? ~'.. in my v: cw a licl.t cigr.reiae woul.~ be one that was-- k*cll, ii: I had to put it in.u 5'F.•:, uayich I guess is what starts to cu..eVor iZe those cigarettes, it prouz:b32 ;;tr:+ts x•e3c•.r 1G; would be bettcr if it were 25 cpcxax ing in tt:e 14 area; and lowc.r orviou; ly.

1 2 3 4 5 6 ?' 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 64 IiR. P,C..L: L;,cLs_c me. !•:n y I ail:: %•:hcn you use the tcrui 14, is that cnillic;rLrns of tar? Yes, sir. Carlton would be, for exarple, a licPub ciV4..re•°,.te, operating in the 1:otto:a scale of TPN~. A. You know, I have very difficulty answering some of thEso questions because we are talking about what I would descr ibe as relatively common advertising lL:r,guage uhich occasior.ally runs sorae scale. That's , particul.aaly true, let's say, with the word 'raild' w1hich Las bccn a word that t.hc: cigarette compa.nies have us2d fo.: ycars and years and years. Q, (:-1r. F~.ct~.erj 1:ell, c?ojs nean anything i Wi''..il any C+ESg3:GE.-' of prCc7.c;}.oil 4J..th respect to ci~a::c:~~es? A. I would sL;; r.,it that it carn,ct be precise but, on t:„.e ot±:cr hand, I would sLggeE;t tl:at it says, as I have said in my testiuo ny in regard to our own advEri:.1sing, that it tunds to position a cigarette of sor«eG.:~at and I uwe the same uYard I guess in the sa.ae sense but r:zaybe in a little di.Ifer2nt scnse fro:a, frora co:upet'.ticn which operates in a full flavor area aa catEgori:;eci by the Wir.ston and the riarlboro, for example. ~L Lo you draw any dicti:;ction bctc:reen 'ligiit' anc; 4:

65 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 'mild'? A. Q. In other words, L & M back in.the tifties, which was light and caild, 'light' and 'riild' were redt;:nunnt? A. As I atter,.pt to say, the word 'mild' has been used by all of us. Camel has spent many years saying how mild it was when, in fact, it was perceived at the opposite end of the scale. I think 'mild' is an advertising word which we in the tobacco industry have tended to brainwash the public a little bit and it tends to m.e-an, in context with positioning, whatever we want it to mean. It's like 'fZavor' and 'taate' which we all say, too. Q Would the same be true of ' light' ? A. I honestly don't think that 'light' is quite in that conte3.'t. Q. And how does it differ? A. I thir_k ' lig}it' tends to position a cigarette somewhat more than the word, let's say, 'mild' does, and that may be because of usage. Q. Less extensive usage for 'light'? A. I<<ould submit less -extensive usage of the word 'light', yes, but I don't know how in the world I 0 m ~o ~

1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 ' 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 66 could documcnt that. Q. But, at uny rate, ' light' and 'mild' mean the same or very close to the same thing in your mind? A. No, I didn't say that. MR. FLETCT'.£R: StiUuld }ou read back about the third answor when I asked him that? (TESTIMONY r.ECIL'i;'ED) Q. (24r. Flete:er ) Okay, I think we started that line off with: do you draw any distinction between 'light' and 'mild' and at that time you answcred: no= now do you want to change-thut unswcr? A. . W-ell, I think-- i 2iR. SOAL: I think he proceeded to number of distinctions. give a A. Yeah, you }-.now, I think -I did qualify it. (r3r. Fletcher) So is the correct answer: no, or yes, or whMt? A. All right, give me the au-.:stion again and I'll-- Q. Do you draw any distinction between ' light' and 'mild'? A. The answer is: yes. All right, and the distinction is as you have stated, whatever it is? A. Aa I stated, yes. 25 0 0 0

1 2 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 67 ~. Eo a mild cigarette is not nece,•sari].y light? A. I--it deper.ds on how you are going to use that word. ~. Well, I'm using it ho:+Tever you use it. lr,'hich word are you talking about? A. if I«m full flavor and rr,il d, which is not an unco~.~nan piece of advertising language, I think I am saying soraethina diffcrcnt than I would be saying if I was light and mild. Q. You wouldn't cescribe an L & M cigaretto in this day and age as light and mild, would you? A. In this day and age, I don't know what the next L & ti copy is going to say, but in this day and age, no, I would not. s Q. would you characterize Lark as a light cigarette? A. No, I would not. Q. Yet your advertising has done so, has it not? A. That ad there is the only ad in which my memory has notEd the use of the word 'light'. hic2. IiOALs You are refcrring to Detcndant's L & M Eshibit 45. KOACF: s Five. - A. That's correct . Q. (Mr. Fletcher ) Now, if you will go back to Exhibits 2A through 1-1, specifically 2A, B, D, E, F, c ~ 0 ~

1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13- 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 60 G, H, I, and J. MR. Y•OACi s All right, he has the:n. Q. (mr. Fletcher) Okay, can wa agree that what 'light' means in those ads is a less dense smoke? A. If we could agree on the word 'dense', yes. Q. All right, a smoke from which tho heavy particles have been filtered out. A. Yes, okay, it's a f unction of thn filter, yes. And if you look at 2DD, EE, you will see reference to 'light; mild premium quality tobaccos; is that correct? A. Yes, sir. : Q. What is ' ligl-it' used to mean there, if anyi hing? A. SrTell, as I attempted to explain in the testimony, the word 'light' in this context is obviously modifying tobaccos. Q. what is a light tobacco? A. We are going to have--you're going to have to . 2 5 1 A. translate advertising language into something which is vegetable matter, right? There may be a tcrminology of light tobacco as perceived by a tobacco buyer= if so, I am not sure of that. But this doesn't mean that? I don't think so, no.

I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 69 Q. Ukay, what c:ces a light tobacco to a consu.^,ier--it could r:_4n as opposed to a dark tobacco liko you will find in-- A. That's correct. Q. --a few Frenc.h cigarettes? - A. 2:o, in this *context light tobacco would be one that would suggest the fact that it smokes--and I'ra going to use this bad -.;ord again--r.:ilcier so I can stay. away frcm the word ' lighter' because I knew you don't want me to keep bringing that one up. [;'ell, it's circular if you do. Yeah, well, I guess I subfaitted earlier that I could use 'mild' any way I wanted to and in this case I ar.: using it any way I want to, to suggest the fact that it would tend to position a cigaretto as against one having full flavor stror.ger tobaccos, this one has lightcr tobaccos and, consequently, obviously there's less tars, and so forth. If we said, for cxzmple, that L & M has strong but mild tobaccos, t•rhich is a piece of language one can uce, I sub:ait that c:o::ld say somcthang quite different about the cigarette than if we said it is a light raild tobacco. Q, riow, if you will loo7; at 3F and G. 0 w

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 70 A. Yc:ah.. Q. SLA:cifical.ly let's look at F. A. R: o't:t. Q. AppaYeni.].y the first of the. thrEC: nuraberc:d claims for an Casis is that it is new, 1_ghtc-r scE;oking. It is then e::pd ai„ed :a:at it is li-,htLr because only new Oa3is gives you a suaarb blend of rich tobaccos lightly cooled with mentriol raist. A. Yeah.. Q. I am reading correctly, am I not? A. I'es, sir. Q. Mat is :: enthol mist? . A. 21el t-hol rxist is an ad,,,ertising gl:rase I sus,;•ect, althougi: I believe that t,rathol is actually misted in tobacco in a form, to suggest that the t;.enthol, resultant menthol taste or effoct on a smoker is-- is , i5.:ter, is less menthol, if you will, than perhaps is Salem who was our chief co:npetition at that time. Again, in ;n atte::pt to position a cigarette somewhat di€fercntly than its competition. Q. All right, but the lirhtest mist of cooling, soothing iuer_thol in that case refers to a concentration of the flavor, does it not? A. In this context I think that's right, whexeas, 0 ~ 0 r

I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 71 however, liShter sir.okin5 FerP:Gps might not be. I•lell, 4;o are using the word in a couple of wa.ys in this same ad; a new lighter smoking doesn't neces- sarily suggest, although we explain-it by menthol mist, and over here on the left it's the lighter fresher softer taste. Q. Now what is a light taste?. you have explained what a light cigarette is but what is a light taste? A. Ckay, that kind of goes back to, you know, what via were talking about when we got into the lighter tobacco situation. I surgest that the word 'light', and I keep repeating myself in this context, tends A: to position a cigarette and separate it in a certain way from its competition, and in these cases, in our usage, those comp ,tition that are perceived and perhaps, and probably, as a matter of fact, -advertised as heavier menthol or more taste or More flavor or hardier tobaccos, or phraseology such as that. v7e11, if I say to you that a cigarette has a light taste, does that have any meaning to you; are we communicating? Xeah, I think--I think we are communicating in an advertising sense, yes. 0 ~ 0 ~

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 13. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 72 t,ell, are we cor-municating in a scientific sense? A. I am--I really can't c.ncwer that questicn. I really c?on't know whc_r:er we are com,runicating in a scientific :,ense or not. To the degree that we use that word as applied to a cigarette which does have a loti:er Tn24 than another cigarette, we would then therefo:.ze be being scientific. Well, -do you know if I ar,m us ing that when I simply say--tal.c about a light taate. in a cigarette? A. I don't Z:now in fact -wzeti:er you are using it or not because T_ don't knoc. Lo what you are applying it, and ca'rw talking advertising language; I would strcr.g?y suggest that I could describe the cigarette as an advertising ran when you use that phrase on tae. Q. okay, can you describe it in words other than 'lirht'? 3M. BOAL: You i:~ean other than he already has. A. I'm Y.ir.d of repeating myself in many grounds. I could use phrases such as low o:: lower tar and nicotine, figures to devcribe it, to aid and abet that position. Q. (mr. F) etcher) vtell, in your mind are tar and nicotine figures correlative with taste? A. I thi.-;: in this case both . scic:ntifieally and 0 .D 0 M

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 73 advC?:ti :i:ig-Wxse, yes. Q. A? 1 right, in other word3, light taste means relativel d nicotine ? a l t thi th A. no n Well, y , an ow ar n g more here again, it's relative to wyat? Q. Well, relative to something? A. Well, relative to something, yes. Okay, in your view taste and tar and nicotine content are not ir.aapendent variables; is that fair to say? A. The ta.ste and tar and nicotine are not independent vdri.abZes? Q. At least with respnct to 3.ig:ztnes::? A. I'm nc L so sure I do. ,. ML~. WILS7k?: Taste on the one hand. Q. (r's. FZetcher) Can you have a tasty cigarette that's 1i-,1-.t? A. Ycar, I think you can. I think--you know, I think Vantzg'n has pzcbably schicvcd that fairly v;ell in both its positioning and in its product. Q. O'cay, wel?, can you say that you have a light tar and nicotine cirarette v-hich is not light in taste or a light tasting cigarette which is not in tar and nicot ine? MFt. BOAL s I di.d.n't understand that. Do you 0 %o 0 v

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9; 10 11 12 13 ' 14 15 16 17 18 19 20'. 21 22 23 24 25 74 ur,c'erstz.nd that questson? A. No. If what he is saying is that on one hand I can use an advertising phrase and not necessarily-- that uses the word 'light tasting', for example, and not have the cigarEtte below ten or twelve or socething, yeah; I doubt very nuch whether you A. would mal:e a cla im us ing the word ' 1 ight' if you were, as I arbitrarily split a market at fourteen TP.f, I doubt whether you would make that claim for one that is above.it.. Well, Lark did it. That's an opinion. SomeY,Gdy could turn around and do it tomorrow. Q. Lark did do it, didn't it? F.. In that ad? ~• . Yes. A. That's right, Lark did do it. Q. And, siecifically, they said that Lark was smooth ancd lirht and frcsh tasting? A. Yes. a. tiow do you regard that as simply an erroneous stai:.enent? A. No, I regard that as support in this case for the camnaign which is esscntially based on snoothness. 0 %V 0 CD

1 75 And we 4re jvst a<<:1ir.g lancluage here which--m-hich 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 helps n1a?;e that br:oo,'iria:.s come alive. OZ. Does it n:ean znythir_r~? A. Scientifically or from an advertising Man's point of view as he tries to make a consumer for his Troduct? I mean, you knoF., that's difficult to answer. A11 right, does it mean anything from an advertising man's point of view as ho is trying to make a con- su.mcr fcr his product, and, if so, what? A. twell, okay. You know--you're--you're forcing m4 wtiich--into I think a relatively impossible situation in w?:ich I am--in which I ara trying to d-2scribe what is semi or psPudo-scientific into what a consumer might perceive vis-a-vis advertising. I don't l-.now, for example, what in the world Marlboro Country means, or come to Marlboro Country, but I can tell you that the consunzr does, and it has positioned the cigarette because r;arlboro h:.s positicned it there. You know, if we were arguing over the word. 'country', you know, I would have the same problem. Tell me how 'country' positions a cigarette and I'll be damned if I could do it, except in context I 25 could very easily do itt.. 4

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7s Q. Aia~2 t?iwt's your with re,pect to a lic~ht tasti.:g cigare:t:.c, alco? NR, BcAL: That isn't the question. A. No. No, as I suggested earlier, if I were going to pcsition a cigarette, as we h&ve done in several of t.:ese ads, in a sit1:atien which is com.parative wit-h tar and nicotine or not, I think I would--that kind of language would comA to me. Q. (17:r. Flctc~ ex) I agyse, but here it seems to have come to scmebcly v-,ho 4Tx'c.ti: a Lark ad, also? L I thoL,..'_ I ansr:,cred that. I thiruc it is a flavor that is and light and fresloh, and all of those Q'• lar.guagec, and in this c:mtesct, ac far as I know, it's the only tim:: iL has e•Jer appeared in Lark copy; it's t:e only ad whicz I have ever seen in vhich it appea_ed. l:ufi i t is not light in th.e :,ar:e--it is not li-jht t_mct'x.:g in the cLr::e censs that, well, if you want a varl;ooro Light I suppose it wculd be light tasting in your cr inion , is that' so? A. F-cbaUly, Q. Locking at LA thrcugh C, t~:o.se are the old Chester- ficld ads which talk about light up a.ChestErfield. ~:. Ye ah. t

1 2 3 4 5 6 ? 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7 ; Q. I?::-:ir:k cz%n ugr~c:, can ve not, that ' light' in tl:~ t cortc,:t hzm; r.athlnc v;hatever to do with the coi.t<-!xt we hr+ve been t:sir.g it in earlier? A. As far as I'm concerned, absolutely. Q. That's just another r,euning of the word? A. The.t' s xight. Lookin, at 1D-- I-M. MAL: thich one is that? A. That's the cour-on ad.. Q. Fletcher) I find a::er_tence: the cigarcttes in thosc go•r_g6ot3a new pac?;s as:e just as gorgeous t<<c tinc}, coma, lichter, sMoother, t2ioroughly ~ li.kab1.c, prricd. A. I didn't c;~~:r.e fun of the I.a::lboro copy. Q. On the r. ecord, I don't mean to make fun of it; I'm just reading the sentence. I am reading the sentence correctly, an I not? A. Ye::, $.i.r. ~. tdow what do-es livhtcr wean? A. The e:-phasi3 is sornerihr,t w rong but the words are the Sai.*~E', q• I'm sorry, I guess I just got a little taken with trorgeou s ; A• I t2 in,; so. 0

73 2 3 4 o` a w:ir,Ka claim xn the cigarctte b:ai.r.css ::n r.:y e:perici~ce, ti•,hat -does 'lightc:r' mzan tl:cre, ar.d t;lis was a 1°70 advertiser;ent so wL're tGl:;ing relat:.vely cu:crently I t;iinl;, 6 ? 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 .15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A. Yes, we a+e. Tiere, again, I thin.~C the answer to thi3--ar:d there weren't many of these ads either-- is pretty much the same answer as Lark. That it is modifying 'taste' obviously, and in this case the ~ CrAestc?-fioi d claim is li,h4er, it's smoother, and t: orouy:_lj lE;sible, if you will. Q1 md C~aos :.c:rfield is not by any stretch of the ir;sg:.natio:z a hxC!: filtration cigarette, is it? : A. ro, wir. Q. Fi:'a•:1 Was:i' t at ~`.i1a t t].II::C? A. Fo, sir. Q. j•:;:,u?d it be fair to say that 'lighter' in that con- te:;t was just so.wething to say about the cigarette wiu didn't raee.n much of anything in terr:.s of a:cL`.ra Cy, prCciSion as to taste characteristics? A. I thizi?; thwt--I thin'r, that's a little bit unfair, you knorf, you are suggesting that--that certain l;.r:;uur,os v.hich are used by cigarettes from tir:.: to to C::scribe their product may not be 25 deccriYtive of the product c::.- may, as I thirk an

2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 1, 14 15 16 17 18 19 20- 21 22 23 '24 25 79 you uscd it the expression: doesn't mean anything, you Y.ncr.4, I don't think I could acknowledge that. Well, I think you earlier used the phrase: just cigarette puffiery. would that be a fair characterization of what 'lighter' is in that advertisement? .A. 'Cigarette puffiery' incidentally is a term that I have learned from the attorneya in this'world with whom I have had some considerable exper3s nce. I think in the context I used.it, it was rather a generic expression to describe lots of cigarette advertisiiig which has a grt-.at deal of conm:ionality to it as, let's say; being in the puffiery area. I don't necessarily submit incidentally that 'puffiery' iv necessarily bad. 91. O;i, I will stipulate that there's an awful lot of it in cigarette advertising by all companies. Off the record. (DISCUSSIOPi OFF RECORD) MR. FLETCEFR: I would ask her to tr~ark as Plaintiff's Exhibit, L & M E~:hibit, 1 for identi°icatxon, a copy of a iLark advertisement. (tnfi,RKED FOR 111x;NTIFICtiTION) Q. (i-ir. Fletcher) mr. Robinson, do you recognize this?

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 . 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 80 A. Yeah. Q. What is it? A. What do you mean: what is it? Q. well, I think I said it purported to be a Lark advertiseatent. A. It was a Lark ad. It appeared •in TIME, June 28, 1968. Q. Does it use the word 'light'? \ A. Yes, sir. Q. hnd in whar context does it use i:ize word 'light'? A. Well, in this case totally differeat than any of tra oti:er usa5es of the v:.orci 'liglhr' that we have so far hit upcn. let's gay, is somewhat synonyrous with a small joke, make fuiz of it. Q. Triv iality? A. T-rivialit y. ~ Frivolity? A. YE::Sl, thai.'s rig;it. It's a rather serious subject n his case it's a word that, in our mincis wiiiciz we are giving a semi-humorous fireatcc.~n t ..o, and wc: close the ad by saying that you woul;:n't expect us to r:.ake liy:It of it, would you, woet c:;i't capoct us to ciake fur, of it, would you. 0 %o ~ r

1 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 81 Q. In your mind, Mr. Robinson, arc; the terrms 'light' and 'richly rewarding' synonymous for cigarettes? Again, we're talking about the taste of the cigarette. A. 'Richly rewarding' is a phrase used in Lark copy. I suspect that is where you are picking it up. 8ere, again, I think we get into one of those pieces of advertising language which occurs relatively frequently in cigarettes in which, depcnding on what you are trying to say relative to how you are trying to position a cigarette, there are certain words whic:i from tirae to time can appear to be . intc.rchan,eablti and xrom timz to tima there may seeia to be Fsvwe redundancy in it. Q. Well, just in t1he abstract 6o you consider a light cigarette, light and richiy rcwarding to mean the same tui-1.9 or approximai.ely tr;e same thing with respc:ct to ;:lhe i:asi:i: of Q:e cigarette? A. O74Qy, if thar is all you want to say, you say ' light and richly ra-warding,' i could conceive of an acivertisir:y Ui:x:ase wtiich I could use for Niarlboro Liyl::.s which would be iigat and richly ruwarding, yes, sir. (~ I'in as:cir.y a"aout tj:t: tko h~irases separately. 'Do Ln 0 N ~ 0 I r ; ~ i . ,

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 .13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 ' 23 24 25 82 they mean the isa*no thing or different things? A. in the first place, I don't think 'richly rewarding' means a htck of a lot out of coni:cxt, and maybe not even 'Lights' does. ii:'s just a simple word as a piece of language pulled out of a dictionary, althou5h AorYc of them iiuve definiti.ons. Q. So it really dehends on how it is used as to what it means, Vhat sort of prcposition is being establisi:eu? I•;R, SUXL, : By v:izat means? bSP.. FLi:TGiiL.S: 'r:.u F:ord 'light'. A. O::ay, you lazo,a-- . , Q. F].c:icher) Just flo"~s.ulg arciirad in a vaccum it means less to y.:L ia:an _t does if you put it in or.e ad-- 1=:R. n0ALs I ti:ink we have three hours of test:im:?r,y ot w4at he if:Y.inis ' lic;hc' means in various ccntcxts. A. Ycah, i.i.at's rig2:t•, and, yuu l:nuw, I keep covering that sarac grcu.:d again and the great difficulty I'w having cwiously a:, a:, acvertising mar, and as an auvcrticir.g hi:'coria:~, s~1L-called, if you Nill, is tryii.g to takc: all of t11i:, kind of language and to givc a lectu`c. to so;,c;:'vody and say, hey, I can I

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 83 prccisely pinpoint all thvse words as used by cigarettes and thcr -c:by dcscribe their attendant position. I do thiiu, and I'm not going to recant on it, that 'light' has a so.newhat more specific meaning than some other words do. Q(t=;r. Fletcher) We compdred !light' and 'mild' as to meaning earlier, Fir. Robinson. Does 'mild' have any meaning at all with rEapect to cigarette taste? t1Ft. BOAL: You :;aow, I really think that he has ansulered that question. A. Yeah, 3 know, uoes rai].d--'iaalu' is a word and probably u1ae r,oxt closest o:ju to it or even of . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 grEa•::er usage is the word 'ilavor' or 'taste' which I guc:,:: are synonymous, znh those two words--those three words hav3 been user3 in almost everybody's advcri:ising rL--.gardl:; ,s of, in soiua cases perhaps, as how t4ey were attc-:.npting to position their cig4ro;:tc or how t?:at ci9arc:;:te wa: porceivc-d by the p•abli.: yc". D::es have a meaning? Ycs, it has a meaning. 'i•ry to dc:scribe tobacco taste, and its meaning to the consumer, would be very d iix icult, ~: Okay, is what you are basically saying is that'mild' Ln 0 doesn't uisti:yuich aay cigarette really? a ~ 0 %o V V

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 smor:c ::ie cigarette and I'ra going to say, yes, it's o N ON C 84 A. In a historical sense it does not distinguish any cigarette. Q. Even today are there ciJarettes which are not mild? A. if there were a cigarette, and I'm not familiar with one at the moment, who were shouting 'mild' some how or other in its headline, and I suggest that they are therefore arguing for a usage of the 'mild' which is lower in taste, as it gets shouting taste and saying then we are also mild. ~ Do you rc:cognize this, Mr. Fc:binson? ' N.R. FLETCIMR: Let the record note I am huudin*3 him a pack of cigarettes. . A. Fatitt:a. Yeah, that's right. Q. (:;r. 1'letcher) What dces it say on the pack? A. The Fatinin cigarette is extra mild, the difference A. is quality. ~:arning: the surgeon General has Yes. I c,iu.Z' t Y.now when you wani:ed ma to stop. No, no. Are Fatima cigareLties in your opinion extra raild, and I invite you to break open the pack and sraoxe one ii you wisn. A. wc11, 1'ra going to open the pack and I'm going to O ~ CD

85 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 extra mild. Do you know what the tar and nicotine f igurea are in Fatiraa? A. No, but they are probably up in the 16 area; This cigarette has not been advertised, has not been pa sitioncd since, what, 19551 maybe before that. This pack and its language probably belongs to another era. QNevertheless, it is sold today, is it not? A. l.evertileless, it is sold today, that's rigint. Q. And ilie pack does suys ex;:ra raild? A. I prc:suu:e this is our pack, yes. ~ Do you recogni:;e it? A. I ca.n't say for sure that I do. You know, I know darrn wall it is a Fatina pack. I don't think we-- Izar, not iarailiar wit;h c:hutever package changas we tauy or mGy not have a:ade in the last sevr:ral years. Q• Q• A. hould you accept tsy :~c:preseni:ati4r: that I bought it in vtzrham thie morning? Certainly. Do you recognize the list I h4ve just handed you, Mr. RobiYlson? Yes, sir. Do you accept the figures on that? 0 0 N O% t O J ~

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 86 A. This is t-he FTC, tar and nicotine content listing. Q. I suppose it is the most recent one, is it not? I believe it says at the top. A. Septem}ser 174. I suspsct it is. Q. All right, does that have listing tar and nicotine figures for Fatima? A. Probably. Yes, it do es. Q, wliat are they? . . ~ . A. 28. Yeah, 28. That' s a nice on©. A. kiR. 4UIFIN : Th Yeah. MR. EDAL: But at' s a hummer: xt' a an extra mild 28: : A. That's rig.Al-.. T:iut's ahsolutely right. iiR. FLETCHLR s i;o further questions E::~ilt;.ts'1``IO:T LY i~LR. BOA L: Q. With rcfarence to Deienu3nt's Exhibit 2A, does the u::c of 'light' in that advertising and in the po:,itic::ing oz -thc cigarettc: have a relatively dcfinite z:teaning--naving a deYinite waaning? N"% FLErc.EI:R: Note my ob jection. A. h2-iat did some'r,ody say? !•iR. FIwTCili:R: I said: note my objection. ~ 0 Q. (.ui:, isoal) Does taa uEe of 'light' on the N -P O N O

1 2 3 4 6 7 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20. 21 22 23 24 25 87 advertising as depicted by Defendant's L& M Exhibit 2A have a definite meaning? , A. In my opinion, yes. Q. Are there some instances where 'light' has been used by cigarette advertisers where they have only A. a rathar vaguo general meaning? Yeah, we have seen some today. O;tay. ' . . I think the Lark--this Chesterfield advertising here. Q. in the Cnesterfield advertising is 'light' there A. used in just a rather vague connotational sense? That is ID. `'cah, I think it pran-aaly is. tlnd does the--does the phra;,e as used: gorgeous tastir;g, lighter, smootl.er, thorouohly likable, doLs that have a rather vague laudatory connotation wit'ri resi.oct to-- A. Vague laudatory conno;:a;:ion? @,. Yean, puLfiery, if you will? A. Yeah. There's a differeace betweF-n an attempt to position a cigarette in one place and this one is not particularly drivan towards that end. Q. And thst is on:: clear di:;ti:ietion between the use of 'lic,•ht' as seen in Dufen6unt's L..hibit 2A? N -A

i 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 88 Q. And in 1D? A. Yeah, I think so. ~Q. In the context of the use of 'lights' in the Winston Lights cigarette package which has just been xderitified as Defendant's Lxhibit 6, does that have a definite meaning? - 2:R. FUTCHsR: Objc:ction. To me it does. ~ (r,r. Eoal) And what is that definite meaning? Q. A. I thought I answered that. i4R. BOAL: I think you did. A. it 's a lxne e.xtcr.sicn frora a--frora a full-flavored parcnt, if you will. ~ Q. (;•;r. 3oa3.) j4:~d I tal;e it the sarae thing is true of Defendant's I'a:hibit 7, whiciY is the marlboro Lights p`sck? A. Yn my opinion. I ~. LGt.L: Okay. I have no further questions. .- . I ary.. F+,~rT'..-~R_ L~ .., .. Q. ;-roulrl tk.e: thir:g re true of Lark Lighta? A. I don't ',atow anjr.:•r:ii:g Qijc4i: Lark Lighta. ~ ~TL~_ lt•:t.. L....I,: ..at s a laypothe~ical,_~ical qtzcst oa. Q. (I:r. F1Etcher) you w "e lc,~.~;;ing at 2A a mornent ago, N 0 r 0 N N

1 4 8 J 14r. Fobir.son, ana you we:: e talking about ' light' ; I note that ' light' appsu:: s three times in that acivertisE:c:ent. Miich of the three, top, middle, or bottom--if I may be so crude--were you ref©rring to? I'm not svse in my mind whether all of these usages are not pretty much the same and the repetition of 11 12 13 14 15 20 21 22 23 24 25 can emphasize the position. kould t.:at be true of ti:a lighter advertisements in the series? These were the 1953 ads. Would txi; s be true of the ' 54, ' 55, and even 156 L& M ads, that ' light' could ?:i:a the same thing from ad i to ad? N.R. HUAL: I i:hiu:c it would be easier if you had a specific advertise,nent. No, I think through that--I th:.nk through that pe::ic: of L & M that you have described t,:e position- iriy of L & x iu tile r:earkc3cplace was essentially tho (t:r. Yletclher) And that 'light' was intendad to mean about tlie sa,,ie all tlxu way through that perio3? ia:c"s t.rL;:t ' Iight' was inLC:Ilut(3 to rui.;an about the same. You kncw, we played on soc::a other language essentiall',' in ti.e they dic:h't tend to direct N 10 'light' is nothing more than a device by which you I ~ .~ o O N w

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the pcsition of thc brar:d too A:Lch. I•iR. FLL"TCF-'.LRs No further questions. I•a1. bOAL: ;hat's it. i Reportcd by Dar_ is MoYran, Court Rnrortcr 1519 Tycnek Dr ive Dt-t:-h~*.+, tT. C. 2770? ATeleohone: 919 596-3320) 90 0 %O M r i I t I

r 1 I V0RTiI C1~P,OLI1rA 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 COUNTY Oe DL'1thI3M CERT IF I C A T E I, Doris B. Morran, a Notary Pu:)lic in and fcr the State an3 County aforesaid, certify that the witness, H. Copeland Robinson, Jr., was duly sworn by me prior to the takiiig of his testirarsr•.y= and that said testimony was . taken in the presence of the persons hereinbefore stated. I further certi£y that I tt:ereaf `er traiiscribed said testinony and that the foregoing transcript is a true and accurate ;:ranscripticn of th© 'ce stir.,cny so had to the best ~ of r..y u.„:ick ata?.uling. I fLr-%Lher certil--y thut. I:u:, not related to any of the pax4i•-ts hcrc:to; 4tiat I ara nci:h:x in the employ of either party or i:.'rieir counszl nor have any personal inter- est in ti.e results of t'.his la:,*sait. wIm;z5S my hand and %oi.u-rial Scal, this the 2nd day o:- sa;-,vaxy 1975. Ivotury. Pul3ic My cocm:Assion expires 10-31-75. ~ N ~

PW . And did you talk with%ynolds attorneys before appearing here today? . Did you review the testimony you are going to give today? . Review the testibony you are going to give today:with the Raynolds attorneys? . Did you review the ads.' regarding them? Some , All or None? . Did they make any suggestions to you as to how the questions should be answered? 8o everything you have said is your own initiative? Have you said it before to the Reynolds attorneys? What in your view Mr. Robinson is a light cigarette, may "i ask Excuse me,/when you use the term 14 is that milligram. of tar liell does light mean anything with any degree of precision 1 with respect to:cigarettes? ~ Do you draw any distinction between•light and mild? In other words L & M back in the 50's which was light and mild were redundant? 15. Wou11 the sams be true of light? 16. And how does it differ? 17. Less expsnsive-useage for light? 18. N[ZZ Sut at any rate light and yild mean the same or very...e close to the same thing in your mind? . , _ . . . , ). . . • . . 19. Would you read,back about the thirdanswer when I ask him if I think that started off with is there Any distinction between light and mild and at that time you answered no, now do you want to change that x.mm answer. 20. So is the correct answer No or yes or what 21. Do you draw any distinction between light and mild. 22. Alright and the distinction is (•,"W~ ~ O b N a t,

23. 24. 25. It . 26. 27. ., 28. , 29. So a mild cigarette is not necessarily light? Well I am using it hcwever you use it and which word are you talking about? You would not describe an L. & M. Cigarette in this,day an/ age as light and mild? Would you characterize Lark as a light cigarette? G_ Yet your adverZising has done so has it not? You are referring to defendant's L. & M exhibit No. 5? Now if you will go back to exhibits 2• through M, specifical to 2A, B. D. E. F,G. H. I. and J. 30. 0. K. can we agree that what light means in those ads is a G less d.nse smoke? -------------- 31. Alright, a smoke from which the heavy particles have been been filtered but? 32. Noe if you will look at 2 DD EE 33. You will see reference to light ed mild premium quality tobaccos 34. What is light used to mean there? I 4_ 35. What is a light tobacco?, 36. But this doesn't mean that? 37. 0. K. What is a light tobacco to a coasuwr,it could mean , as opposed at to a dark tobacco like you will find in a f" cigarettes (interrupted, both talking at the same time) 38. Well circular if you choose 39. Nox if you will look at 3 F and G, ~ 40. Specifically let's look at F, appareutly the first of the three numbered claims for Oasis is that it is new lighter smoking, it is then explained that it is lighter because only naw Oasis gives you a supberb blend of rich tobaccos lightly cooled with menthol mist. ; 41. I as reading correctly am I not? ~ 42. Uh, what is menthol mist? 43. McxY.Alright but the lightest m t of xmtdcbg cooling,sooth menthol in that case refers to a concentration of the flavor does it not? v ./ 44. What is a light taste? ~ ky. 45. You have explained what a light cigarette is in your view but what is a light taste? / N . l,S I

46. Well, if I say to you that a cigarette has a light taste, doe that have any meaning to you? Are we cosmunicating? i 47. Well are we co®unicating in a scientific sense? 48. Wall do you know if I am using that/gop simply say riat talk about a light taste in a cigarette? ~ 49. 0. K. can you describe it in words other than light? 50. Well in your mind are tar and nicotine figures correlative with tastdt I 51. Airight, in other words light taste means nothing more than mat low tar and nicotine relatively? ~ 52. Relative to something. In your view taste.and tar and nicotine content are not independent variables? Is that fair to say? 53. At least with respect to lightness Y 54. Can you have a tasty cigarette that's light? w, u 55. 0. K. so Well can you say that you have a light tar and Ve tasting cigarette which is not light in tar and nicoti 56. Lark did do it didn't it? tasting cigarette which is not light in taste or a ligh nicotine cigarette which is not light in taste or a!light 57.' Yes ' 58. And specifically they said that Lark was smooth and light and fresh tasting, now do you regard that as simply an erroneous statement? 59. Does it mean anything? 60. Alright doa it mean anything from an advertising man's point of view as he is trying to make a consumer for his product? and if so what? 61. That's your answer with respect to a fitti light tasting cigarette also? here 62. I agree, but/it seems to have come to somebody who wrote a Lark ad also. 63. But it is not light tasting in the same sense that well if yo~ want a Marlboro light I suppose would be light tasting in your opinion using it in earlier? 64. Looking at 1 A'through C doesn't the old Chesterfield ad talk about light up a Chesterfield? 65. I think we can agree can we not that light in that context has nothing whatever to do with the context we have been .

0 V .r V 66. That's just another meaning in other words? 67. Looking at 1 D, I find a sentence cigarettssin sthose gorgeous new packs ate just as gorgeous Oasting, lighter, smoother thoroughly likable. 68. On the record I didn't mean to make fun of it I was just reading the sentence. 69. I am reading the sentence correctly am I not? 70. Now what does lighter (interrupted) 71. i am sorry I guess I have just g~~~en a little taken with gorgeous---- its sort of unique, imsd in the cigarette business in my experience 72. What does lighter mean there? This was a 1970 advertisement so we are talking rellatively current I think. 73. Chesterfield is not by any stretch of the imagination a high filteration cigarette ? 74: And wasn't at that time? 75. Would it be fair to say that lighter in that context wa: just something-to say about the cigarette and didnt mean much of anything'in terms of accyracy, precision a to taste characteristics? 76. I think you earlier used the phrase just cigarette puffery would that be a fair characterization of what lighter is in that advertisemant? 77. I'll (unclear) mind that there is an awful lot of it in cigarette advertising by all companies. 78. i have asked her to mark defendant's L. & M. exhibit 1 a copy, Plaintiff's I'm sorry, Plaintiff's exhibit L & M exhibit l for identification, a cepy of a Lark advertisement 79. Mr. Robinson do you recognize this? 80. What is it? . 81. Well I think I said it purported to be a Lark advertisement. 82. Does it use the word light? 83. 84. In what context does it use the word light? ~ In your mind Mr. Robinson are the terms light and richly rewarding synonomous with cigarettes? Again we are talking about the taste of the cigarette. 85. Well just in the abstract do you consider a light cigarette light and richly rewarding to mean the sasb thing or approximately the same thing with respect to the taste of a cigarette? 86. I am asking about the two phrases separately, do they mean the same thing,'different things? ~ 0 N a 01 t f s

,-- ---c . .~ . 87. So it really depends on how its used as to what it means, what sort of proposition is being established, the word light , . 89. We compared light and mild as to meaning earlier Mr. Robinson, does mild have any meaning at all with respect to cigarette taste? 90. 0. K. Then what you are basically saying is that mild doesn't distinguish any cigarette really? 91. Even today are there cigarettes which are not mild? 92. Do you recognize this Mr. Robinson? Let the record note that I am handing him a pack of cigarettes. 93. What does it say on the pack? 94. Ara Fatima ci arettes in your opinion extra mild? I invite you to rea open the pack and sswke one if you wish. 95. Do you know what the tar and nicotine figures are on Fatima? 96. Neverthe less it is sold today? isn't it? 97. The pack does say extra mild. 98. Do you recognize it? , 99. Will you accept my representation that I bought it in Durham this morning? , q lop- 11 100 iz Do th li t I d 4 e t h bi d N R . you r jus cogn e e s an e you r. o nson 101. Do you accept the figures on that? r 102. I believe it s.ays at the top. r 103. Does thatN'*)listing for tar and nicotine figures for Fatima? 104. What are they? 105. No further questions. - ,