Tobacco Documents Online

e) 1 ., 5 G APPF;ARAI!CES : Mr, Ar.ti:c::y L. Fletcher, and A!r, -T?;:othy C. Quinn, Jr. (Conbcy,.I-:eilitt, O'Brien & Boardman ) 20 Exchar,ge Plaza New York, New York 10005 appeared on behalf of the Plaintiff; Mr. R. Bradlee Boal (Cooper, Dunham, Clark, Griffin & Moran) 8 30 Rockefeller Plaza New York, New York 10020 c°~ -- ~ and v 10 - Mr. L. Alfred Willson d (8.7**J. Reynolds Industries, Inc.) 11 Winston-Salem, North Carolina 27102 ~ appeared on behalf of the Defendants. ~ 12 4 z a ~ 13 s 0 ~ 14 ~ 15 16 17 18 19 .1 O w ~ w

t . , MR. BOAL: Would you swear the witness", plea-c: ;, (Witness duly sworn. ) JOHN HO:dI!RD B:,-:i3S0I1, -called as a t•titness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: Q A John Benson. @ Q Howard. .Q Okay. What is your home address, Mr. Benson? A 774 Pleasant Avenue, Highland Park, Illinois. Q How long have you been workin g for Leo -Burnett? : Q EXAMINATION By_ Mr. Boal : What is your name? - Is that your full name? Correct. No middle name? Twenty-one years. Were you working for Leo Burnett before Philip.Morris became a client? Correct",'- Do you work on Philip Morris advertising w

. 8 ~..._........•,...._, - ,.......~. _~. . _._..__._ •. , _.. _~... ...~.... _.•.~._ _._..._..__.._..... _ ........ . . A That would have been in 1955. And -ti•rhat was the nature of that ad? 3 A• As I re;:all; it was . a man in a tuxedo. And how long was the man in 5 an insertion. 7 , Q the tuxedo ucc--a? There were several different types of-ads used to broaden the appeal of Marlboro, is that correct? Q Correct. Could you name a few of the others? Amateur radio operator; a sports announcer are two that come to mind. Q Did there come a time when these other vehicles -- if I can use that term -- were dropped? A. Yes, in 1963. Q What happened in 1963? The advertising was changed. And_,what was it changed.to?. Changed to the exclusive use of cowboys, And-has that been true from that date to today?. 23 1 - A Correct:.. D.oes any other cigarette manufacturer, use :

1 0 8 0 3 5 i 8 9 v 10 I N D E X WITNESS JOHN HOWARD BENSON Examination - By Mr. Boal PAGE

!} now ? -° ! A Yes. Q 5 7 s Q Q Has all.of this advertising been prepared. ~ by Leo Burnett for Philip Morris Company? ~ advertising from the inception of the relationship betweeri Philip Morris and Leo Burnett? A Correct,. Q We have here a group of advertisements that have been copied from an exhibit .in an other litigation matter which has been prepared by Mr. Fletcher, and it was previously.identif ied in the deposition of Mr. James Morgan as Defendants' Morgan Exhibit Number 2, and I would ask you to look at this collection of advertising, Can you.identify .that advertising? (Witness examining document,) THE WITNESS: Yes, I could identify that. By .Mr, Boal:- °1 And for-now long~ have you worked on it? Twenty years, Okay, Have you worked on Philip Morris Correct. Q And it was w v+ of various kinds ~ 0 N O% F all placed in print advertising o

0 s-;., ..~ ~-~k Nj AL DEN:jb . ~ . ., I 16 17 18 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR TiiE' SOU*1: ~RN DISTRICT OF NEW 'YORK PHILIP MOT'.RIS, INCORPORAT:rD, ) -vs-. ) Plaintiff; ) ~ ) ) R. J; REYNOLDS TOBACCO COMPANY) and WM. ESTY, INC,, ) ~ Defendants. ) No. 74.C Iv. 2395 The deposition of JOHN HOWARD BENSON, called by the defendants for examination, pursuant to notice and pursuant to the Rules of Civil Procedure for the United States District Courts pertaining to the taking of depositions for the purpose of dis- covery, taken before Diane E. Norris, a notary public within and for the County of Cook and State of Illinois, at Prudential_Plaza, Suite 1500, Chicago, Illinois, on the 12th day of November, A,D,, 19?4, commencing at the.hour of 1:30 o'clock p.m:

b ., 5 6 .._.~ ..w~_.. ...-.......r...~.._...___...._ ,..._...-. w...__ ..,....... _ _._ , ._.~._.........__ .r. .......... C,orrect, -- for Prilip Morris? Leo *Buraett d id not promote the sale of any. other Philip Morris brands at that time, did they? A Correct. Q Was there an eff ort to create a new image for Marlboro at that time -- which appears to be 1955? There was an effort to broaden the appeal of the brand. z ~ 15 .., . Q Could.you elaborate on that? The Marlboro brand on sale prior to our was a very limited specialty 16 17' 1s 19 20 21 0, 23 24 getting the assignment brand being sold, as I understood it, primarily only in the East, Q Higher priced luxury cigarette? Correct. More app-eal to females than males?. A Correct, This advertising was designed -- to broaden'the appeal to more smokers was the reason f or t,his advertisin;,- And more male: smokers? ~ v+ 0 N ~ Not necessarily, but ,to appeal just to morel = 0 v~ .

12 @. pro j ect? Were you in favor of the pro ject? vlas there w reason why you favored the A To expand the Marlboro f ranchise, Q Who did you expect to expand it to? A -To non-smokers of Marlboro Red, Q Any non-smoker of Marlboro Red? A Hopefully, yes. Q - Were there any discussions at that time as S to the target group to whom Philip Morris or Leo f! "Burnett wanted to appeal with this new cigarette? A Well, basically, as I said earlier, we ~ ) wanted to expand the franchise of the Marlboro brand ~ name,' and there were people who did not smoke Marlboro Red, and we, hopefully, were going to attract those non-smokers of Marlboro Red with another brand of Marlboro, Q Was one of the aims to protect the Marlboro franchise from erosion to high filtratiori or low tar. and nicotine cigarettes? A If-I understand your question correctly, protect the eros'ion; the answer is no, Ln Q Was there at that time any erosion f rom.the . ~

r 5 Correct, I think you have a thirty-seconci stcry board*in there. Q Thirty-second story board? Yes, wasnIt there?; All right, .:I have here another group of ads which has been`identif ied in Mr. Morgan's deposition as. , This one (indicating), . That's 1C; Is that the advertising which. was used to promote Marlboro about the time that they changed agencies?. - THE WITNESS: I'm only familiar with one of the By Mr. Boal: Q Which one is that?. A That I don't know. But you do remember that a E

i 3 5 smokers, Q Q 7 Was it successful? Yes, Do you recall any change in share of market in Marlboro during that time, 1955? 7 But it was an increase? Q ~ A Yes, Q And what was the concept used to make the broader appeal.-- was there a concept used to make V a broader appeal? No, I don't specifically.. Well, there wasn't a concept used. The idea was to present* the brand in such a manner as to be more appealing to more people. .Q And how was that done? Well, one of the devices was the use of a cowboy in the initial ad, . Q Has the use of a cowboy been continuous. ever since 1955? Did there come a time that`Philip Morris stopped usingo a cowboy-to promote Marlboro? The second ad -was not a cowboy. The second ad? When was that?'. - L" %0

G v 1 MR. WILLSON: Reds. By Mr. Boal: Q Coripared.. to Reds, for exar.iple: Lighter in_taste, I can't answer that taste is relative. Q Who was responsible for the phrase "lighter, , in taste"? -approved. It went through me, certainly, as the copy would. Q And "lighter in taste" had no meaning to comparative? Say that.again,:. .16 ' A- I think that's_ relative. I think "lower 17' in tar". is specific, I think, It's lower .in tar than

22 1~ when the transfer ~date is., 3 @ Mr. , Cu 11^:an? * I att-ended one meeting with Mr. CullmGn. Mz'-.. r.illriser.? I don't remember a meeting with Mr. Mill- ~'MR, FLETCHER_: Which one? THE WITNESS: Joseph F., III. ,By--Mr, Boal: Q Now, with respect to what has been identi- f ied as Morgan Exhibits 3A and 3B and 3C, this-was, in fact, the f irst phase of Marlboro print advertisin is that correct? Correct. Now, does 11A, B and C represent the second of Marlboro Lights advertising? ~ (Witness examining documents.) THE WITNESS: I'm not positive of the sequence, but, they look familiar. But Itm not positive this is the sequence, Boal: Q And we :have -identified as Exhibits 12A,. and C-'to the.Morgan.deposition some newspaper adver= o . . . . . ~ . o~ ~ _ ~ tising; which'I believe was also at.an earlier date,_ w

24 ,..... ..._ ..._. ..._. ... _.,.... .v. , .._ ~..._. -. ~ ._....._.. _ _._...._...... ~ ._. ._... _ .•. _..,..._,.. _. _.. . _. ._ . rather; ° Q of Marlboro Red, Isn't there a os.rticulwr non-smoker thwt this advertisin~- is directed at? 5 I don't think there is a particular non- smoker. Q Particular group of non-smokers? I mean,. is there a particular group of smokers? A I don't believe there is a particular group ori this, Hopefully, we were aiming at all those people who did not smoke Marlboro Reds, Q I note in the first line, the top line of , -Exhibit 12A, f or example, in the copy, prominent type:l~ "If you smoke a low tar and nicotine cigarette, try this new one from Marlboro." Isn't that directed to the low tar and nicoy tine cigarette smoker?- I have always looked on low tar•being a very-relative thing,-. For-example,_if I were a Camel smoker, would consider a Marlboro, say, or an L & M as a lower tar cigarette, Q Was there a reason f or the selection of thei copy.."If you-smoke a low tar and.nicotine cigarette,. w try this new one from Marlboro "?. ..: N a . . o~ 0 .._w . . a

I .> s 0 a 9 16- 17 'peopl'e who don't s'r,loF;e Marlboro Red. prefer the tast(: of a lower tar ci~arette, MR. gOhL: Could you read the question and , ansvrer, p].ease?-,- Q- Do you want to ad3anything to that? By Mr. Boal: The record was read.) No. Are there low tar and nicotine cigarettes? I guess there are, Q What low tar and nicotine cigarettes existed in 1971 when you placed this advertising? I can't recall specifically, but I would assume that True was on the market, Doral, probably Vantage, Marvel -- not Marvel -- oh, what's that low tar one? I can't recall its name. Those are the ones that come to mind. Isn't that really who the advertisements such as 12A, B, C and D were directed to? Well, again, I have to say those are peop?e who don't-amoke'Marlboro Red, and that's who we were get. And those people are people that come-' within the description of "If you smoke

21 Q "engraver"? Are-they owned by Leo Burnett? T'T o . It's an ir.deper.dent entity? R it,;ht , Do you know Collins, Miller & Hutchins? I know of them. And are they engravers? . They are photo engravers. What was the,word you used before Photo. How about Intaglio Service Corporation? ~ s t ~ ~ They are an engraver, also, for rotogravure, And how about Superior Rogers Graphics? Photo engraver. Q Did they make any decision with respect to any-of the Marlboro Lights advertising? Q In 1971, who at Philip Morris did you work .With with respect to the.development of Marlboro Lights advertising? then he's with Philip Morris, 'and I have forgotten Fitzmaurice,.,At one time,'Bob worked for me,..and. A.. `Jack Landry, Jim Morgan..-And'I'm hazy on H

f - ~ i I participated in- the meetings that led. to the h mari.etin,7 of Marlboro I,ignts.. ,. ., a ..Q When- did these meetin`s first occur? Mid-1971. I am gues sing. Q Mid-summer? A Something like that, . 7. 8 U 10 z $ 15 16 17 18 19 20 1 ,0 23 24 Q There are some agency service reports th;,t. have been identif ied here, if that's off any assist- ~ ance. ance. I do not have.with me the first one, which ; is in September, but when we come back again, we -will have the September one. I think they are chronological. (Witness examining documents.) THE WITNESS: Well, the first one here indicates~ December 1 of '71. By Mr, Boal: Q At that point in time, I take it that Marlboro Lights was being sold in New.England and not elsewhere? A_.- Correct. Q Do you recall the meetings, what took place at the meetings in mid-1971? ~ Specifically, what?

f,..,... .. .,. . .... . . _._. _ .. .. , i . 1. 1 . * A Wcll> yes. We didn't want to say "If you ., 3 By Mr, Boal:' '1 - MR. BOAL: Could you read that last question and 6 7 N are the sr,:oi:,r :of a flavore3 filter ciZarette" =- mean'ing. the Mari co'ro sm.oker. , -vJe didn'tt want to Red smokers to:a a new.brand, answer? The record was read. Q What do you want to say? `~ 1`'' - A What do you mean "What do 0 z ¢ z 13 9 0 notice on the bottom line of the copy it "Marlboro Lights for those smokers who prefer the.lighter'taste of a low tar and nicotine cigarette,". Are.there any smokers who prefer the ''& I:` lighter taste of a_ low .tar and nicotine cigarette? O v you want to say"? Q You just told us what you didn't want t I beg your pardon? What do you want to say? say. What did you want to say? We want to speak to the smokers of other cigarettes.

J 35 occasion for running the Marlboro Lights? T'o my knowledge, no. Q -Does that mean you don't know? A,.I'1rn not.aware that that was a reason for running Marlboro Lights advertising. Q How long i,s the lead time necessary to place a print ad -such as Exhibit 8 which appeare.d in the New York Post on June 24, 1974? A To create an ad, get it approved and insert it in the newspaper is normally about a -- under ideal conditions, a four-to five-week effort, assumin that there are no new creatives needed. Q Was this created in 1974? No, that ad had appeared before 1974, I'm quite sure. time to place the.ad? A That's possible. Q About a week? Probably longer, I would guess, You don't • recall *specifically? o,:.I don't. Do you know 'who knows? Ourn production manager could answer"that o -. - . ~,

37 t: attorne;; s for R. j. '7eyr.olds TobaC-co Company, and wpr.e propounded to- Philip Morris; and in answer to Philip Morris furnished us with I certain answers. And I'm particularly interested in Interroge,tory Number 5, 'and. I would ask you to read Interrogatory Number 5 and the answer to it,- , Q You do? A Burnett employee, apparently. ~ Q I don't know whether he is. I don't, either. - . He mi ght be someone at We requested production of those two docu-- n't'recall ,them. Well, is 'there a reason : -- Q. He may not b Philip Morris. MR..FLETCHER; Yes, there is. a reason for those, I

19 I ,a....,..__ _.. ~._....._-V.._.. .. ___.._ ...___.-_ -- ~ . •-- _. ... _ . _.~..........._. - ---------.~._,...__~ _ .. . -was prepared. Whether he_was responsible f or that specific thing or r:ot; I don't know. a Q i I type that was used in:the Marlboro Lights print adver-? G tising in 1971? A I would guess Ken Kr.om -- at least under S his direction. Q. Lights selected to tie in with the Marlboro Red type? MR. FLETCHER: .the package? By Mr, Boal: Are u talkim t the ads r ~ b o ou o g a Y Q Well, let's take the ads, f irst, A I can't answer that question, why it was selected,' Ken Krom was the one who selected it, and I couldn"t tell you.why he selected it. Q Do you know who J, M. Bunscho is? Q Okay. Fine, Who is responsible fgr the selection of t'rt~ Was the type that is used on Marlboro Yes. Was Mr. Bunscho involved in Marlboro Lights in any way? A` To my.knowledge, he's a typesetter and'a supplier for.the-Burnett Agency: Did he make any decision with respect to I

. 14 Q-, In any event, you didn't participate in discuss_or:s? A @ Correct,' D.id':you. participate in the preparation' o-f the first Marlboro Lights print advertising? Did I part.icipate in the preparation, of it preparation of the advertising itself, I participe.tel in the meeting where it was presented. And what was your role in that meeting? That of an account supervisor; more as an observer as versus the presenter. time, I'm unclear on the specif ic person at this .Norman Muse? It could have been Norman Muse, but I'm not positive,' Q tising was prepared,.the first version of any print Q Who presented it? f Marlboro Lights was prepared? Specific dates, no. I'm guessing a

1i I•That were the meetings about? The r.eetin`s uiere about the launchin; _of 5 hSarlboro L+f-'r_ts, Q Did you participate in any way in the selection of "Marlboro Lights" as the de:signation for • this new product? No, I didn't,participate. I participated in meetings, but not in decision-making. Q You participated in meetings in which dis- cussion was had of Marlboro Lights as a possible candidate for the brand designation?- I'm trying to think. if I recall correctly, prior to my parti- cipating in a meeting, I think the name had been agreed upon; However, there might have•been another name under consideration. How about "Marlboro LTN"? Correct. What was your attitude towards."Marlboro. AY I didn't have a point of view on.it. -_Q -Did you have a point of view on "Marlboro Light-s "_? No, I did no

?1 i ._ ..., . ._.._ ..........._....~ _._._.__ A--: 'Iritroductory ;advertising usually containz .6 .7 8 the news cf a ne'L,t product. After you have established a new product the minds of the consumer you are talking to, you then-p'ut more emphasis on the product itself, -probably,.and less on the news that it's newly ° able 0 Q Do you recall at whose initiative the change -- well,.do you recall whether the initiative for the change came from Philip Morris or from - A No, I do not. A Specifically, no, I couldn't give- you a- 16 17 18 19 20 ?1 Which areas?' I would guess the~Northeast, Q The product had been on sale for a longer 23 date. Q Q Q Do you remember when the change came? When? When,- Do you know approximately when? I would guess probably the second quarter f '72 in certain areas. eriod of time? A. Correct, It was rolled , d out, and it was not j

, ~.......__..._ ,,. .,_....M. _.. _..._ _......~. . _.. ..__..,..__ . ._-- ~ 'anv , ,~ •any advertising--of Mariboro 1 I would ._say no. LiGhts? Q And what was their role in the development of Marlboro Lights advertising, if any? by Marlboro. However, we do use other art possibly. I'm not familiar with that. It's possible that'they did the art assembly f or Marlboro Lights, Q I can't answer that question specifically. Hoover Kern is an art studio which is used What does the term "art assembly"connote with respect to advertising? Art assembly is the f inished piece that is photographed by a photo engraver to make a metal plate for printing. The art-studio, then, has:nothing to S 2 ~~ . with the selection of the elements of the advertisin',(;?.... Correct, ~ ~ . 0 Hoover Kern is located- in this'building?. _,° A C o Correct. ~ v +-. N ~

MR. BOAL: I'don't particularly -- biR, FLETCHER: I_.'will_ undertarie to take a loo': .at these doLuments within the next few days again a:.;: We may'agree to show them to you to per- suade. you there is nothing of any importance in them. If there is something you want in the record, we may be able to stipulate it in. MR. BOAL: Coming out with a whole 'line of ,Lights, it may be quite pertinent,_ MR. FLETCHER: I agree with you. The plan, -my recollection, was never to come out with a whole new line of Lights. I'm sure nobody ever contemplated appending thinking'of was appending it to two or three differen brands, one of which was Marlboro,,others which are -brands which._have,been sold on'a considerably smaller i

4:: 1 recollectiori? - ~ t4R. BOAL :. Se. f.,,.HER: (Indicating). P•',H._.: L •~.._ i T1:E WITNESS : What's. that? . MR. FLETCHER: '66, THE WITNESS: For Marlboro Green. a MR, BOAL: Do you have those f irst ads there? 3 MR. FLETCHER: Yes, MR. BOAL: Maybe we could pull them a look at them. (Documents tendered.) MR. FLETCHER: July 29, '67 for 100's. THE WITNESS: Okay. By Mr. Boal: Q Do you recall the advertising that has been identif ied as Defendants' Morgan Exhibit 2, Sheets 28 29, 30 and 31 which were, apparently, prepared in 1966?. (Witness examining document.) MR. FLETCHER: Excuse me, and 31 are-irrelevant,. They are :to keep the continuity. MR. BOALi 0kay; Boal. I think 30 MR, FLETCHERt Let's confine it.'to 28 and 29. ~ 0 N o% 0 tu tO Of

, By --Mr, Boal: ~ Q Mr. Ber.sc;n, do you have anything to do w: `:: J 4 Benson & h,:.,d~es'. Q rdo, s ir. Were you at all involved in the sampling program that was used to promote the sale of Marlboro; :Ligh-ts? It's possible I participated in a meeting where a design could have been prepared by Burnett , - to encase the sample. I'm not positive of that, but it's possible, Q Q Do you have any specimens of that? I do not. There are none here at Burnett? To my knowledge, no. MR: QUINN: What do you want-a specimen the samples that were used? 0 MR. BOAL: Yes. MR. QUINN: - The little four-pack things? NLR , BOALi I think they were double four-packs. MR.•QUINNs We will.take a look around, I Q -. I have- an ad that was identified as Adams .1 Exhibit 9 for identification, and it's an excerpt o - - ' . N P ~ ---~--- O W N

, riicotine-- cir-e.rette"? '' ~ i -It could be, yes. ., v Q-, W e have identified this morning in the depo.sition of Mr, Adams:"Exhibits 4A and 4B, which are point of sale pieces, and I ask you if you recognize those. Yes 8 , Q Were they-prepared in 1971 or early 172? 9 I thi k s o -~ n o. QL7, V+ v 10 Q And what was your role in the preparation ~ 11 f th se ds? U O tR ~ 2 a o o - A I did not participate in the specific c : a Z 13 preparation of those. I probably attended meetings 0 C7 14 where they were presented. 15 Q And who participated in the presentation 16 f of these ads? 17 A Again, this would be under Norman Muse's 18 and Ken Krom's direction, 19 Q Were Marlboro Lights at that time lighter 21 23 24 in taste and lower in tar? Compared to what? Q The advertisement says "Marlboro.Lights, lighter in taste, low in tar."

41 I .i ? 1 you are fa*:il-..ar with tha.t? {Witness• exe.r.ii-ning document, ) 0 Q. Not•r, as I recall the testimony this i S TNJ WITNESS: Yes, I am.- By Mr. Boal: ; , morning,_that was the only type of print advertising 1 that was placed in 1973 that.promoted the sale of Marlboro Lights. A- I think that's correct.. advertising was placed in 1973 directed to Marlboro Lights alone? Q I believe that was referred to as line advertisin g. A •Correct, Q Well, is there a reason why no print. A matter of economics.. : Couldyouu explain that? Q Was the..brand.not doing well enough to support -- A Budget reasons, . The . brand was doing well, but because of . other priorities, it didn't receive an eff ort, Q What were the other priorities?

16 18' 19 20 92 ~ .._..__.___._~~__ . ~ ___.____... ... . _ ..._ ..._.....,__._....._.~. __ .__....._. .that correct? TNE j7ITI:ESS; Correct; By` Air . Eoals. Q .Q Q different, :•iitness examining documents; ) What was your role with respect to the .advertising that has been previously identified as --Morgan Exhibits . 12A, B, IC and D? That 's a role of account 'supervisor. parti- g cipating in the meetings where advertising is pre- sented to the client'and approvals obtained. Is there any signif icant difference in treatment between the advertising that has been identified as Morgan Exhibits 12A, B, C and D and Exhibits.3A. B and C? 23 I guess it depends upon what you call sig- o you see? t look upon it as being significantly Essentially the same type of advertising? Correct,' in Exhibits 12A, B 1 Ln smokers -- the non-smokers N ~ s 0

,. ..__ _ ....~....._...~ ..... v ..._ - ,...-.._ .. -- _.. _................_....._.~~..~_.. _..... _ -_-_ . . Q i9rat is his name? His-., name is Dick Tulp. Are you familiar qith this document? (Witness examining document.) ~ . THE 41ITNE.SS: I have seen it. I'm not familic.- with-it, in that I didn't read it specifically. Bu :: I recall seeing the cover on it, yes. By Mr. Boal: Q Did Leo Burnett have anything to do with the preparation of that document? It's possible we made the layout f or it. Layout for the cover? For the cover. I'm not sure,' bi~t it's . Is it all" done_ by Philip Morris? Correct, responsible f or.the preparation of such materials? responsibility would 0 Jack Gillis, director ~ 0 w ~00

Q point. I don't believe he participated in How about Ira Kaget? ~ # A .; i:o? Q 7 16 17 . 18 19 .Ira Ka.n-et, K-A-G-E-T... That name is not familiar to me. Was Mr. Gelperin involved in the Marlboro .Lights -at any time? I don't honestly remember, but it's " entirely possible. Q How about Roger Sherman? That's entirely possible, too. How long-ago did they leave Leo Burnett? I can't give you the exact dates. Gelperin was the last to leave, and he's been gone, I think, about four months -- and I'm guessing. . ;- i Sherman.-- back up -- Gelperin replaced• Sherman, and Itm not pogitive of when Sherman left, either. Q How about Mr, Driggs? 21 ,. Marlboro. .He reports to you? 23 Correct,.

5 8 Correct. At that time, was Mr, Krom-the art directorj Correct,- Where is he now? He's in California, s he assigned°there permanently? No. He is. on a' trip. 16 Q Did you participate in the preparation of •'Did you participate in the preparation of the art'work? Q No, I did not. Did you approve of the f inal.ad as shown in Morgan Exhibits 3A, 3B and 3C? A I was one of -- I approved .of it in the • role of an account supervisor. @ What does that mean? That means many people participate in the approval of the advertising. Q And you were one of them? At that time, was Marlboro Lights looked

9 .Yes, n 3 6 8 16 17 18 1J 1 23 a coti•rboy-„_in the same way in the United States? A The same ti•ray, no, not to my -knowledge. Q - Is . the,cowboy theme closely identified the Marlboro cigarette? fication in terms of consumer appeal? A Yes, Q Very much so, is it not? A Correct. There was an exception that didn't occur `to me, and that is some specialized advertising use in some black media. Q And what was that exception? We ran a couple of case history ads on black people from.black history, Q What period of time did this occur? am unsure -of the dates. -It was after 1963.. Q Within the last decade? A Ye;s;. Q What was your role with respect to Marlboro Lights? - Q Do you think that that's a positive identi= 0 N ~ F A:- We11,.I am account supervisor on Marlboro. W . . . . . o~ .-4 -.

a 13 Q You• : s.dri't run any studies on that? Q Was there at that time increased consumption of low'tar and nicotine cigarettes? Are you: refer.ring to 1971? Yes, I am. I can't answer that question'specifically. I don't recall the status of the low tar market at ~ d a 11 1 that time. Q Do you recall any concern for possible n z 13 1 increase in taxation for cigarettes having higher J 0 .i4,/ tar and nicotine numbers? :i z _ W 1 {~ .4 prior to mid-1971, any coming out.with a lowered tar and nicotine version of.Marlboro?. I i l+iarlboro, frwnchise to low tar and nicotine cigarett-,:~. ^ =' ; A. Ptot that I could specifically identify. Was that ever mentioned in any of the .meetings that you attended? . To my knowledge, no.

3C , . diffe.rence be.tween Marlboro Red and Marlboro Lights, Q Who is =espc.^.sib2e' for the copy "The spir;-_ of tiiarlboro in- a low tar cigwrette"? , I_ woul d. have to answer that by Agaizr # . . . ~ . . . ~ _ - . . { . . ; . - . ' ~ ~ . t saying Norman'Muse, who is the creative director on ! ~ t 1 Marlboro would have been responsible for the creation of that line. Q We have identified this morning as* Defendants~ Adams Exhibit Number 8 a Marlboro Lights print ad that was run in the New York Post on June 24 1974. Are you familiar with that ad? A Yes, Q This represents a different treatment Marlboro Lights advertising than.is represented, f or example, by Exhibits 3A, 3B and 3C, which is the earl, advertising, C_ould you describe to me what differences .there are in the advertising?. The early advertising.is purely introductori ~ . advertising, and this is what I think you would con- sider sustaining' advertising, . Q A: d what are the differences in emphasis. from an'advertising agency point.of view?

1 3 A 16 . 17 18~ 19 '0 1» 23 produced at one fell swoop nationally. Q :+han you say "rolled. out, " that's the seL--,:. phase? A N io, that's the introduction of the produc:t into additional markets. and rolled out- in other areas of the country, i that correct? A -That's correct. Q -The product was introduced in New England Q So having been introduced f irst in New England, you would go to the sustaining advertising' ; i earlier in New England than the other areas, is that ; correct? That's correct, MR, BOAL : I think earlier today I asked for a breakdown in advertising of the various phases of advertising in terms of dollar expenditure.s. Were you able to find out any more? MR. FLETCHER: lunch. By-Mr, Boal: Q -What was Jim Oates' role.in the Marlboro. Lights,.if any? 24 A I don't believe any, ut.I'm ~ 0 N not.positive I

2a 1 3 . Z . 'A I don't think it's comparative. I think it's a.snecific, It has less tar. Q. Less tar than what? I can't answer that, I don't know. Q Marlboro Lights a low tar cigarette? . S Is Marlboro Lights a low tar cigarette? Marlboro Lights is lower in tar than Marlboro Red, guess is the best way I can answer your question. Q But you wouldn't call it a low.tar cigarette? ~ A No, -sir, Q I have here a copy of a document that was' i I ~ la 16 17 1s 1J 20 21 22 23 identified this morning as Defendants! Adams Exhibit 12 for identification, and ask if' that advertising was prepared by Leo Burnett? A Correct, Q If Marlboro Lights is not a low tar cigarette, why did you use "low tar cigarette" on that Exhibit_12? W'riat Is the question. again? Q If Marlboro'Lights is not a low tar cigarette,'why did-you use the phrase'"low tar cigarette" "on Exhibit' 12 for identification? 24 .1 :A - I think we felt it best described the

~~ flavored, too, would be Camel, Lucky Strike, non- filtered. 3( Q They -were non-f iltered? A Correct, but they.vrere considered full 5( flavored cigarettes. Q L & M was a full flavored cigarette at 8 time? Correct, Q How about Viceroy, was that out at that time? , 1 I r ~ It was ut at that time I d n't kn w if , o o o ,you would call it a full flavored or not. I guess you could. I think it's a matter of opinion. Q Do you recall when Marlboro lA0's was introduced? A I'm confused, I'm going to say '67, but I think it was later than that, Q Which'came first, Marlboro Menthol or Marlboro 100's? A I think Marlboro Green came f irst, and then Marlboro•100's, And I think '67 was possibly Green,. and 100's was later.: But I can't remember the exact year. MR. FLETCHER: May I refresh the witness'

other Lights brands of cioarettes to be sold by Philip Mlorris," irrich discusses with tome specificit~• the possibility of--introducinu a cou-Ole of brand _~" names` that Philip 1:orris is very interested in and 7 v 10 16 17 18 19 20 te11 us what you.are going-to'do.tomorrow ~ -- o 0 . . . i has been interested in for several years, and may wel-1'_ ~ introducin g in the immediate future or possibly in= ,; the ~future, ~ ~ And cigarette brand names, that.has the same problem. These are areas which we would con- sider to be confidential and have no necessary importance to this case, . 1 I mean, frankly,.what you are getting into here -- MR. BOAL: Suppose you delete the reference to the parent brand. MR. FLETCHER: Well, it's not: a question of . parent brand. It's a question of whole other brands. -MR, BOAL: You mean Tiffany Lights and so.forth? MR. FLETCHER: That may or may not be one of- them. But thatis the.sort of thing we are talking about, yes, I think.this.is an area that we have tried, with_respect to Reynolds, we really haven't asked.

. „ . Q advertising was presented, was it presented.at a r.ieeLir.g?- - :Yes• Q Were any changes made as a result of that . -meeting? -A ~Possibly. I don't recall specifically, what-; s they might have been. advertising, When the-earliest version of the print sent to the printer? Q I` believe that we have identified in`. Mr._Morgan's deposition an exhibit which was there marked as Exhibits 3A, B and C which.has been, believe, identified as the first Marlboro Lights Witness examining documents.) THE WITNESS: From memory, I would"say that's correct. By Mr, Boal: @. Now, do you recall any changes that might have been made in that advertising which was finally advertisin;-? The copys was prepared under Norman Muse's - ,

Q nnd wra %-F/ u s the r,es sa.:-e that you were attempting to convey-to-the smoking public with. thcz-:: ads? @ .The fact that Marlboro had a new brand out, Is the word "menthol" descriptive of characteristics of the cigarette? I think the word "menthol" was used to identify the new flavor of Marlboro that was being offered. @ @ @ Itts a menthol flavor? Right, And that was emphasized in those ads, was Do you recall when Marlboro 100's was intro;. And I hand you Morgan Exhibit 2, Sheets 32 When were they.f irst.introduced? T

8 A Was,he 'involved in Marlboro Lights? Pa ul has been on the account, I think, since about the first of 'Janue.ry. He would have be-:- involved in any activity that,took place from January of this year until now. Q What activity has taken place from January'. until now? Q Well, there have been some ads run; Such as -- That ad in particular I believe has been .repeated (indicating). Q This is identified as Exhibit 8 to the Adams deposition. ~ Are all the ads that have been run in 197 i generally of this type? 17 19 ,,h A Correct,. ' Q- Do you recall when they were f irst run in In when? When -in 1974-.they were f irst run. I can1t identify the exact time. Was it about June? That>would be correct, yes,.- - - o . N Was the introduction of Winston Lights the.y

-were:on the market at that time? % a a time? Yes. 2 A No, I do nat. Q Were _there other 100 millimeter cigarettc:.= or-super king.size= cigarettes. on the market.at the,t 'And .is the word "100's" as used on the 0 Q package'characteristic of the product? I think here it was used to identify the number of the brand, Q A 100 millimeter cigarette, is that correct? A Yes, Q And in looking at Adams Exhibit 9 f or identification, it shows four different members of the Marlboro family: And I take it the words "Red," "Menthol Green; " "100's" and "Lights" distinguish. those members of the family one from the other? - A That's correct,' Each one is a different brand of'Marlboro. Q And- each "is descriptive -of the characteris- I.think it better identifies the various 0 N .~ o - w ~o - aO tics off the cigarette, is that correct? "T

, . = I -I":can use that- term ---to advertising which promoT.::: 6 7 S solely-2darlboro.Lights, such as shown in Adams Exhibit Number 8? A_- Aiarl'Qor'.o Red . Q And is there a reason for going back -- ir A I gqess the best answer to that question is :im`proved economics, Q What does that mean in this case? That means an improvement in the budget 16 17 18 19 20 23 24 situation. Q By that do you mean that Philip Morris has .more money to spend on the advertising of Marlboro? A That 's correct. Q Do you categorize Marlboro Red as a full flavor filter cigarette? Yes, Q Was it a full flavor filter cigaretten when it was introduced in 1955? A Yes, in my opinion it is, Q What other full flavor filter cigarettes A. Winston, I think -the other one would have were on the market at that time? L & M,. Oh, I-beg your pardon, the other full ut --

2 Y 47 packings .of the .brand, , Correct. The Green b.eing the green -.parkage and the 100's being the 100's, Q Do you know ToddAbrams? ~ A I don't know the ne.me. I don't remember the'' name. Q The Red being the red package? Q He doesn't work for Burnett? Q I'm not sure. Are you familiar with an entity known as Haley, Overholser & Associates, Inc. Q What's the name again? H-A-L-E-Y. O-V-E-R-H-0-L-S-E-R and Associates, Inc, No, I'm n ~ (Whereupon the proceedings in the . above-entitled matter were adjournedd sine die,)

I r 10 11 ~ a 12 ~ ~ 13 14 15 7 18. 19 2 21 .22 23 17 expansion.of an established product line?. .Could you restate that question? (The record was read,) HE-WITNESS: By`Mr, Boal: . It was not ? It was ;not, Did Philip Morris look on it that way?" ,;''A Again,, as . what?_ What.:were: the three? As the- f orerunner of a new _ trend in _ • - . . . : . _ _ ... . .cigarettes;`not a new brand, not a new name, but ~ natural expansion of an established product line?- A I don't believe they did, However, I can't answer for them, : .__ . • •- .. . , Q,- Are you familiar with a brand of cigarettes called "Light". cigarettes? Document tendered. .THE WITNESS;` No, I.am not. Y Mr... Boal.: With respect to',-what has been~-'previously identified as-:Morgan Exhibits 3A;- 3B and 3c, is there any-.`attempt to tie in with the cowb.oy theme that has. been.used with the,Marlboro R d '= at that - point ~ ~ . .- . . . - . . _ -. . .. _ . .. ' .. - . . ~ w continuously for eighti years?.. .; N F ~,- _ _~- --~_ w ryv t

In one ad, a minor .'Which ad is that? (Indicating), -17: don't look upon that as an effort to tie n, really, to the cowboy in the other two examples. A In my opinion, it is used'more as-an interesting graphic-'device in the headline,'is all.. Just happened right, under the "M for.the'use Norman Muse