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RADIO BROADCAST TRANSCRIPT Program: The Smoking Question Part II Date: November 18, 1962 - 8:05 p.m. Station: Mutual broadcasting System, Washington, D.C. Re: Cigarette Smoking and Iung Cancer THE SMOKING QUESTION CHARLES WARREN: "Good evening. This is Charles Warren, lbtual NeWS. 'The Smoking Question'--that's our program title this evening. Last week at the same hour, and over many of these same stations, Mutual News and Special Events preseited the opinions of Senator Frank E. Moss, a Democrat from Utah, vierrp on smoking , heard from the oo-sponsor of a Senate resolution dee~ting with the subj ect. Tonight we'll get another side of the story, when the Scrippa-Howard science editor, John Trohan and I question- Mr. George V.. Allen, who's President of the Tobacco Institute, Incorporated, a former director of the United States Information Agency, and a career diplomat. This tape recorded program is presented in the public interest by the Mutual Broadcasting System, so that Americans will continue to be the beat informed people in the world. The opinions expressed in the program are those of the reporter, and our guest. Now, the Smoking Question. With the firat question from John Trohan. TROHAN: "Mr. Allen, I wonder if we could start out by having you aummarise for us the position of the Tobacco Institute with respect to th e general question of smoking and health?" ALLEN: "I'd be glad to, W. Trohan. The Tobacco Institute is an association Uf the tobacco manufacturers which regard the smoking and health .q uestion as a very serious one, and one which deserves very earnest and energetic, scientific investigation and experiment- ation. W e support that activity through a sister organization, the Tobacco Research Committee, which has done more investigation in the eight years since it was established than any other private s cientific organization or medical organization in the specific subject of lung m a o, N

-2- cancer." QJJF.STION: "This is the tobacco industry research committee?" ALLEN: "That's right." QUESTIOiV: "How much money haa this committee spent?" ALLEN: "During its eight years, it has made well over 100 individual grants to independent scientists, laboratories, technicians, and various kinds of experimenters, and the total of these grants is well over five million dollars at the present moment." QIJESTIO,'J: "Does the Institute, or does a~ybod in the induttry feel that a case has been established that smoking ~s comaeoted with lung cancer?" ALLEN: "No. The industry--and you say anybody in the industty-- as far.as I have heard anybody express himself, it is that the matter needs thorough and energetic scientific investiga tion. All the medical authorities as far as I know, or practically all of thent, agree that nobody knows what causes cancer, and speoifically 1 cancer, and this is a matter that remains to be found by thorou and energetic scientific investigation. QUESTIJN: "What about all of the statistical studies, which seemt to Implicate amoking?" ALLEN: "There have been many statistical atudies. l good many of them which seem to point the finger towards smoking, at least as a contributory factor that needs further investigation. As you un- doubtedly know, there have also been a great many statistical studies which have pointed the finger towards a lot of different possible causes, and they would s eem to add up to the fact that lung cancer, or cancer in general is one of the most complicated diseases that the medical science has ever had to address its attention to. And that there may b e a va'riety of faetors, or a combination of factors, and there have even been statistical a tudies which come to the conclusion that there is no evidence to point towards smoking as a cause--a direct cause anyway--of cancer. "These statistical studies add up to the need for further intensive scientific work on the sub jeot." dD r oh W

•3- WARRBN: "Mr. Allen, neither of us is a scientist, so that we speak as laymen--" ALLEN: "We're all in the sante fix here." WARREN: "But how do you feel about the studies which Dr. Auerbach, for instance, has done at Veterans Administration Hoa pitals, along with the American Cancer Society, which indicate that the more you smoke, the more chang es occur in your breathing tubes, and these changes are characteristic, he says, of what .precedes cancer. His point being that the more you smoke, the more changes you get, and if you quit, you may revers e themi." ALLEN: "I lmow about the Auerbaoh studies, and again, emphasising that I am n either a doctor nor a scientist, I have been informed that while Dr. Auerbaok I believe is a pathologist, other gathologists have not had the opportunity to examine his slides or is work, and that he has not mad e his report to his fellow pathologists who can verify or carry out further investigation." QUESTION: "Is the tobacco industry research committee itself financing any such work?" ALLEN: "The Tobacco Industry Research Committee makes.its f rants on the basis of the recommendations of a scientificy adrisory oard, which is made u of a dozen eminent, outstanding, absolutely indep endent medical au~horities in the United States, and I may say at this point, that the committee which makes the grants.has never turned down a grant recommended by the scientific advisory board. Whether they have a grant at the moment on this immediate Auerbach slides study, I'm not certain, but In would guess that perhaps some grants had been made in that field. WARREN: "j*. Allen, about three years ago, the Surgeon General of the United States Public fiealth Service, at that time, Dr. Burney, issued a report in which he stated that the evidence at that point indicated that cancer--or that smoking was th e chief oause--or at least a primary cause of lung cancer. Do you disagree with this conclusion?" ALLEN: "tRell I would point to the fact that the Surg en General under directions of the Presidents of the United States, has decreed recently that there shall be a thorough review of all the available evidence. It will not be a commission which will undertake scientific

-4- investigation itself, I understand, but they are going to try to find ovt what the actual situation is. We regard this as a good ALoYe•" WARREN: "I wonder if I can interject a question in here, Jobn, Yx. Allen. On a recent program in this same series in this smoking qreetion, Senator Moss, a Democrat from Utah, spoke of his oo- rponsorahip of a proposal with Senator Neuberger of Oregon•- ALLEN: "Yea." WARREN: "Having to do. with smoking. What's your feeling on that, Mr. Allen?" ALLEN: "VPell; the chief proposal of Senator Neuberger was that such a study be conducted, and this study ie being conducted by the U. S. Publio Health Service, and so far as the tobacco industry i: concerned, we welcome It, and we are cooperating with it in every way we can." TROHAN: "Mr. Allen, do you think In these studies that an effort should be made to find.out if there ia any thing good, as well as anrthin bad about smoking? I notice you smoke--do you get any good eff eo~e? ALLEN: "Surely. When I said it should be a wide-open stud~t, that means all aspects of it. Yes, the question has been raised oftentimes, if not smoking•-what? And consideration ahould be *- ven, I think, and I would if I were on a committee, even thongh fm not a scientist, I'd want to consider all aspects of the matter, good, bad and indifferent." WSSTION: "You think it has a therapeutic value, then?" ALLEN: "Well, I don't kaoer. In the history of tobacco, you may know that 350 years ago when it was first introduoed into 8urope, it was introduoed as a medicine--as a medicament. Tobacoo has been highly praised and roundly oondenmned through its 850 yeara•. That's another reason why we ought to, .in this great soientifio age, find out the scientific facts on the subject." WARREN: "I was really aerious, -Mr. Allen. I wondered whether tobacco really has any tranquilizing effects--xhether it--"

5 ALLEN: "Well, you may know that so far as the Ari# is con- cerned, ever since Valley Forge, when George ~'ashing ton said to the Congress, if you oan t send money, please send tobacco; right down to the latest events, hostilities In Korea, when General MacArthur was asked what was the best use that could be made with some $10,000 that had been oolleoted for our troo ps in Korea by some organisation--he sent word back--spend it all on tobacco, that that is the most importeaut thing that you can do for the morale of the troops In Korea." WARREN: "This In In direot contrast, Mr. Allen, to a recent order by the Air Force Surgeon-General, in which he says, don't distribute free cigarettes to our patients any longer, or some such order. What is the feeling of the tobacco industry with respect to that? ALLEN: "Well, if I may say, In all frankness, the tobacco Industry learned of that decision with soms surprise, and astonish- ment, because in the first place the Armed Services have been begging the tobacco manufacturers for their ci arettes for their hospitals and enaampmsnts and kits for a long ~ime, and the tobacco industry has been cooperative and glad to perform this assistance to our armed forces. hbst of these cigarettes-Afree ciprettes--have been given by various cormnunitygr oups, American Legion Posts, and other community organisations, which have sent cigarettes to Veterans' Hospitale. But even more imp ortant is-the implication in the announcemaent of the Surgeon-General of the Air Force, that he has reached a conclusion on a subject which the President of the United States and the Surgeon.General of the.U. S. Public Health Service have just decreed that there should be the most basio study which has been ordered by the-American government in this sub eot, with an objective point of view, considering all aspects of tie question. It looks-as if one arm of the U. S. government doesn't quite know what the other arm is doing." QUESTION: "Would you say they've jumped the gun?" ALLEN: "I would say so--yes. We do not think that the decision on th is s hould be based on pre-conceived conclusions of matters which need energetic and thorough scientific investigation." TRANAN: "Mr. Allen, in this stud~ the United States Public Health Service is undertaking,,do you hink that they should pay ~ 0 0 ~ ..J ~ ~ ~ ~

any attention to economic considerations?" ALLEN: "fiPell--" TROHAN: "In other words, the tobacco industry su plies an awful lot of tax money to us-,should this be considered, or should this be strictly a health survey? ALLEN: "I think it ought to be strictly a health survey myself. Now I'm speaking personally. However, I happen to come from a tobacco area--I'm in a very -small scale a tobacco farmer myself. There are altogether, we estimate, about 17 million people in the United States, who, in one way or another, obtain their livlihood, either directl or Indirectly from tobacco--either the t ronring, the handling of ~he leaf, the warehouses, the manufacturers, he wholesalers and retail distributors. Incidentally there are reckoned to be 1,600,000 indfvidual retail outlets of one sort or another, so a lot of people are involved, not to speak of the fact that so far as the revenue to the U. S, government is concerned, tobacco, -I believe Is secona in the amount of excise taxes• Furthermore, of the tobacco grown in the United States--leaf tobaoco-- more than one-third is exported, so it has a great importance in our balance of payments and export trade. WARREN: "The average person, or. a lot of people, ?Ir. Allen, aek the question, the basic ham-and-e~gs question, of ges, if I smoke, sm I going to.get lung cancer? gLZEN: "Perhapa the most thorough study thet.has recently oome into the news on this s ubject was a s tudy by the Royal Coll ege of s physieians in Great Britain. As a matter of fact that was the preaedent for the Senator Neuberger resolution that's been referred to. That study, while considered very strong in its accusations, charges rega rd3ng smoking, nevertheless that study itself said that the majority of peo ple smoke without any harm to their s ystem. So if you eay, am I going to get lung cancer if I smoke, a lot of people get lung cancer who have never smoked in their lives. We had a recent case, in which 27 nuns had died of lung cancer•-not all together, not in the same place, but among the statistics, --who - had never been n ear tobacco. So, certainly one would have to say that if you just ask the question flatly, If I smoke, will I get lung oancer, there are many, many_cases and evidences--cited

0 7 0 statements to the fact that there is no proved cause and effect relationship between the two." TROMAN: "Well -the statiatics I think Rill uphold you. They do indicate that most heavy smokers, even heavy smokers do not-get lung cancer. On the other hand they indicate that the heavy smoker does have a much greater chance of getting it than the non smoker. Is this the way you size them upY". ALLEN: "Well I think other situations--other characteristics-- of smokers need to be examined carefully--" QUESTION: "For instance--" ALLEN: "There are statistics which show that persons who are. ' under tension, for example, for one reason or another--maybe soldiers In the Army--smoke much more than other eople. So the habits, the characteristics which s eem to lend to~rar~s very heavy smoking are considerations which might also bear investigation with regard to causes of cancer••environmental factors• Also one of the places that has the highest incidence of-lung cancer is crowded oities where there are a lot of pollution of the air--things of that sort-- human characteristics, persons' ancestry for example has been gone . into very recently . The N~ York Times carried this very recently, a study linking the likelihood of having lung cancer by whether your parents had it or not. WARREN: "Do you think there has been then somewhat of a preb judgment on the part of a lot of people about the association betReen lung cancer-- ALLEN: "I do. In that connection, I was very much interested in a statement by Dr. Frank (Horsphal)?, who's President and Director of the New York City Sloan-Ketterin Institute for cancer research, one of the most reputable organisa~ions in the United States in this field. He says there seems no doubt at all that there are a number of environmental factors-ba number at least-- associated with the incidence with which cancer develops. But far more emphasis has been placed on one environmental factor--namely, cigarettes--than any other; almost hysteria has been produced out of proportion to its real significance. Now that seems to me a sound stateanent by perhats the number one man in this field, th e head of Sloan-Kettering.

-8- TROeAh: *Rlhat kind of advice would the tobacco industry care to give, W. Allen, to the American publio. Obvious],y you're not goiag to tell them to stop smoking, but do qou think they should be moderate smokera?'! ALLBNs "Let me eay on that, that the tobacco industry hae stated that we have no quarrel with auybody who doesn't want to smoke for whatever reason. There are phyaiological differences in people, xhioh'requ3~re them to exercis e good jugment--sound dgment--Rith regard to all their aotivitiea. If a person is golined tonards heart trouble, I wouldn't advise him to plaJ 36 holes ofgo lf every day-•it'.e rid.ioulous. And so oonsequentlye an individual, in order to be sensible, should follow his own physiologioal*aharacterietios with care and judgment and sound ooMmon a ens e. WARREN: "Mr. • Allen, there haa been some criticism of the tobacco industry's advertising, from the standpoint that you are tryin~ to -lure een-agera into starting to smoke too early in lite? Would you oare to comment on that?" ALLBli: "That queation, of course, is often raised. And let me say this, that firat and foremost, the advertising policies of each tobacco me.nufaaturer is ver deaidedly that manufacturer s own deoision• I want to say that I have myself watched the ad- point of vieR. It'a true that Tertfsiag rather closely from my prett~r girle are sometimee used in tobacco advertising--cigarette advertieing--juat as pretty girls. are used in every other form of advertising in the United States. The tobacco industry has taken this position, very definitely, the tobacco industry ia anxious to be thoroughly law-abiding and cooperate with the laws in various states which set the age at which cigarettes can be sold to minors. I'll go farther end aaike a personal observation here, that in nyr own judgment, the oustom of emoking ie predominately and should be, I,th~nk, an adult decision, an adult custom. But the statement has often been made, with a good deal of--" WARREN: "hNhen do you become e.n adult?" AVEN: "Well, Iwaa go ing to say, when you're old enough to shoulder a gun and fi ht for your country, and die In Korea, a maa :oug~t'to be old enough to make up his mind as to whether he's going to. amoke or not. I'd say that'e as good a rule--of,thumb decis~on as I can see.

WARREN: "We've been spending so much time on smoking and 1un g cancer. I wonder whether there is any concern on the part of the 3.ndustry about any other health effects--how about bronchitis, or heart trouble? ALLEN: "Well this study by the Surgeon-General ia supposed to be not limited to lung cancer--it is to-cover the general question of smoking and health, and we are, as I said, cooperatittg with it in ever way we can. Of course this is a very big subj eat to be studied at one time. It will probably take aix months, it ie estimated, for this study to take effect, and even that won't be long enough, for the time that these scientists oan give to it, to cover the whole waterfront, and even with regard to lung canoer, I imagine that a lot of questions will still be open for scientific investigation, six months, 12 months, and a year--two years from noer: I hope that by the amount of concentration of scientific energy, and brains that are being devoted to this question, that the solution, the answers will not be too prolonged. We certainly, in the tobacco industry, are most anxious for it to be pursued energetically and to find thes e answers." QUESTION: "I sense then, I'.Sr. Allen, that the United States Publio Health Service survey will resolve some of the doubts, but heab on people--good orer~td~» full question of what effects tobacco ALLEN: "I don't like to anticipate what this group of dis- tinguisbed people may conclude, but I would doubt from the amount of scientific inveetigation which is going on right now, and in mid-course, that this whole question will be wound up six months from now." WARREN: "Thank you very much, gentlemen. And there, ladies and gentlemen, you have tonight's tape recorded edition of The Smoking Question, an unrehearsed question and answer session, prese~nted in the public interest by the News end Special Events Division of the a~utual Broadcasting Sygtem... s