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United States Department of Labor Occt_ational Safety and Health Administration Public Hearing

Date: 14 Dec 1994
Length: 130 pages

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Named Organization
AFL-CIO (American Federation of Labor/Congress of Industrial Organiza)
Labor Union
American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees (AFSCME)
Building Owners and Managers Association (BOMA)
Daily News (newspaper)
*Department of Labor (use United States Department of Labor)
Dolphin Group (Tobacco Industry PR firm)
The Dolphin Media Group is a public relations consulting firm established in 1974 by Bill Roberts, founding partner of Spencer-Roberts, with offices in Los Angeles and Sacramento. The firm has represented a variety of conservative political candidates and causes. One of the Dolphin Group's major clients is Philip Morris USA. PM used the Dolphin Group to help in efforts to preempt local anti-smoking ordinances through referenda.
Eagle Environmental Health
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)
International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) (WHO cancer research arm)
International Agency for Research on Cancer - The cancer research arm of the WHO. Conducted a multi-center epidemiology study on ETS, initiated in 1988, data collection completed in 1994 and results were published in 1998
International Union of Operating Engineers (IUOE)
Los Angeles Times
Narcotics Anonymous
National Education Association
Occupational Safety and Health Administration (Held hearings in 1994 to ban smoking in workplaces)
OSHA opened hearings in September 1994 on a proposal that amounts to a virtual ban on smoking in every workplace in the nation
Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA)
Philip Morris & Co. Ltd. (Cigarette manufacturer, incorporated in U.S. in 1902)
Philip Morris & Co. Ltd.., was incorporated in New York in April of 1902; half the shares were held by the parent company in London, and the balance by its U.S. distributor and his American associate. Its overall sales in 1903, its first full year of U.S. operation, were a modest seven million cigarettes. Among the brand offered, besides Philip Morris, were Blues, Cambridge, Derby, and a ladies favorite name for the London street where the home companies factory was located - Marlborough.
Service Employees International Union (SEIU)
Simon Fraser University (Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada)
State University of New York
Tobacco Institute (Industry Trade Association)
The purpose of the Institute was to defeat legislation unfavorable to the industry, put a positive spin on the tobacco industry, bolster the industry's credibility with legislators and the public, and help maintain the controversy over "the primary issue" (the health issue).
United States Department of Labor
University of Nevada
Wash-tech
Washington Legal Foundation (Supports industry causes)
Washington Technical Information Group, Inc.
World Health Organization (Concerned with global public health)
International organization concered with public health worldwide
Named Person
Alexander, Darryl
Andrews, Mike
Barry, John
Hedge, Allan
King, Barbara
Kohorst, Mark A. (washtech employee)
Macaluso, George
Macaluso, George T.
Park, Royal
Rupp, John P. (TI Communication Committee, Covington & Burling lawyer)
TI Communication Committee
Sant, Brad
Sherman, Susan
Smith, David (SHB attorney)
1992
Vittone, John
Whipple, Michael
Whipple, Michael S.
Whipple, Mike
Date Loaded
16 Mar 2005
Box
8824

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Page 1: TI10062126
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF LABOR OCCt~ATIONAL SAFETY AND HEALTH ADMINISTRATION PUBLIC HEARING PROPOSED STANDARD FOR INDOOR AIR QUALITY PAGES: PLACE: DATE: 8953 through 9081 Washington, DC December 14, 1994 BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. OFFICIAL FEDERAL REPORTERS 2727 Ontario Road, NW Washington, DC 20009 (202) 234-7787 (S00) 368-S~ T!1006-2126
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UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF LABOR OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY AND HEALTH ADMINISTRATION PUBLIC HEARING PROPOSED STANDARD FOR INDOOR AIR QUALITY Wednesday, December 14, 1994 Department of Labor Washington, D.C. The above-entitled matter came on for hearing, pursuant to notice, at I0:00 a.m. BEFORE: HONORABLE JOHN VITTONE Administrative Law Judge BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2127
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AGENDA 8954 PAGE Travel Unlimited Jim Gatherum Questions: Ms. Sherman Building and Construction Trades Department Brad Sant John Barry George T. Macaluso Mike Andrews Victoria Bor Questions: Ms. Kaplan Mr. Rupp Ms. Alexander Judge Vittone Sheraton Inner Harbor Hotel, Baltimore Michael Whipple Questions: Ms. Sherman Mr. Smith Mr. Rupp Ms. Sherman 8956 8961 8973 8979 9000 8989 9003 9.037 9047 9049 9080 9059 9061 9068 9077 BAILEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 1 T! 1008-2128
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EXHIBITS 8955 EXHIBIT NO. 171 & 171(a) IDENTIFIED 8972 RECEIVED 8972 BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 f TI1006--2129
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 8956 P R O~ E E D I N G S i0:00 a.m. JUDGE VITTONE: We resume our hearings again this morning on the proposed rule in indoor air quality by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration. If there are no preliminary matters, we'll proceed right to our first witness. Sir, you said you're testifying for Ms. King. Would you state your full name, please? MR. GATHERUM: My name is Jim Gatherum. G-A-T-H-E-R-U-M. I'm testifying in place of Barbara King. JUDGE VITTONE: Who are you with? MR. GATHERUM: I'm with Travel Unlimited, a travel agency in Riverside, California. JUDGE VITTONE: Okay. Go ahead and make your presentation. MR. GATHERUM: Judge Vittone and members of the panel. Good morning, and thank you for allowing me the opportunity to address you today. As previously stated, my name is James Gatherum. My wife and I are co-owners of Travel Unlimited, for approximately seven years, a travel agency which is located in Riverside, California. Travel Unlimited is owned and operated by four travel experts with a combined total of over 40 years BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1008-2130
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8957 experience in the travel business. Providing service since 1987, Travel Unlimited is a full service agency with accounts throughout the local area and around the country. Our clients have a wide range of requests, interests, and demands. When it comes to their travel needs, it is our job to provide our clients with expert advice and service. So whether they are traveling on business or for pleasure, domestically or internationally, they can relax and be assured their travel needs will be met. What does this mean exactly? A lot of hard work, for one thing. Travel agents must research and make recommendations on restaurants hotels, airlines, cruise lines, limousine services, rental car agencies, and regional activities to simply name a few. If you are interested in basking in the sun we will provide you with the best destinations to meet your individual preferences. If your business or corporation is planning an annual sales retreat, we'll let you know where you can hold it so that all employees are welcome. Which leads me to my point. In my opinion, if you- ban smoking as is proposed across our country, you will seriously, and definitely impact travel to and within the United States. People will not travel to, let alone spend thousands of hard earned dollars on a trip to a place where they are not welcome, or are effectively discriminated BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2131
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8958 against. An example, Riverside is near Los Angeles. Last year LA passed a I00 percent smoking ban. Immediately, the city lost the National Association of Convenience Store Operators Convention, and $i0 million in projected revenues -- to Chicago, where there is not a total ban on smoking. In doing so, Los Angeles area businesses lost 12,000 visitors and 36,000 lost room nights to area hotels. I have copies of the news story of this for your review, should you so desire. The point is, if you ban smoking in the United States, American countries may decide to book their conventions in competing destinations like Nassau, Montreal, Vancouver, or Acapulco. Likewise, foreign and international travelers will stay abroad where they're welcome and accommodated. The options for travelers are endless, and for our business which relies heavily on domestic travel, the consequences could be devastating. Another reason that I have concerns with the proposed regulation is enforcement. Let me tell you a little bit more about myself. I'm a former law enforcement officer. I spent 28 years with the California Highway Patrol. I retired on BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 T Ti1006-2132
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 22 23 24 25 8959 December 2, 1993 at the rank of captain. At that time, I commanded an office with approximately 75 employees. During my time as commander I would attend law enforcement administrator meetings on a frequent basis. Based on my experience, I believe I can honestly say that no law enforcement agency that I know of has adequate personnel to enforce the proposed smoking regulations. Therefore, I sincerely doubt that OSHAdoes. Each agency has sufficient difficulty enforcing serious rules and regulations. I do not believe that when the American people talk about a reduction in crime or their need for additional law enforcement officers, they intend for funding to be diverted to OSHA to enforce smoking regulations. Who will be enforcing the regulations, and where will the funding come from? Simply stated, in my opinion, the proposed rule is not enforceable by existing law enforcement agencies, and almost not enforceable by individual employers. Travel Unlimited has no employees that smoke, and prefer customers not to smoke when in the office, but that is our own personal business decision. And it is difficult, and we do not refuse services to a person who is smoking. To ask them to leave or extinguish their smoke places us in the role of police officer for this regulation, and also BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2133
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 8960 places us in a difficult position for a full service travel agency. I want to promote and preserve our country's well being. If a client or friend were to ask me to choose between destinations within the U.S. versus traveling outside the country, I would recommend domestic travel nine times out of ten. For example, Florida, Arizona, Hawaii, and so many other beautiful areas lie within our borders. But if our clients who happen to smoke, won't be allowed to smoke while eating their meals or when going our for refreshments, or to a night club, they may instead choose to go to nearby resort areas such as Nassau, Bermuda, Puerto Rico, et cetera. There are so many options and so many other areas that would welcome their business. We have many beautiful destinations within our own country. The government is going too far. What product, what behavior, what food item is next? And where do we draw the line? The current smoking options in this country work well. People have a choice of smoking or non-smoking hotel rooms, rental cars, and sections in restaurants. Airports have designated smoking areas. I am of the opinion that these organizations have established these regulations based on sound business practices. What it comes down to is this. The America people BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 T!1006-2134
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8961 sent a mandate this past November -- no more unreasonable government intrusion. I respectfully urge you to consider the consequences of the proposals you are considering, and the serious negative impact your proposals would have on the travel industry. Let me end by saying that I believe in this great country we are entitled to our freedoms. I firmly believe that smoking policies should be up to the individual businesses, not the government I thank you for your time and consideration. JUDGE VITTONE: Thank you, sir. Ms. Sherman or Ms. Kaplan? MS. SHERMAN: are smokers? MR. GATHERUM: what percentage of your customers I would like to emphasize that I am not a travel agent, I'm the owner of the agency. But based on information from my wife, I would say between i0 and 20 percent. MS. SHERMAN: So that means that you don't deal with the customers? MR. GATHERUM: I don't personally. I'm not a travel agent. I don't personally book their reservations. MS. SHERMAN: Your wife does, or you have employees? MR. GATHERUM: My wife does, and employees. There BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 ? TI1006-2135
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8962 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 iI 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 are seven travel agents and three other employees. MS. SHERMAN: On what basis do you make your estimate of 10 to 20 percent? MR. GATHERUM: Information from my wife. MS. SHERMAN: Do you know what percentage of your customers request non-smoking seats on international flights? MR. GATHERUM: MS. SHERMAN: No, I don't. From your experience, do you know how the smoking bans in public places are enforced? MR. GATHERUM: I don't know if they are enforced. Frankly, I have never been involved in the enforcement of the smoking ban, nor have I ever seen a smoking ban enforced except perhaps by the waiter or waitress or whoever happens to be in the restaurant. Or wherever. MS. SHERMAN: Where did you first hear about our proposal? MR. GATHERUM: As you know, California had a smoking proposition on the ballot in November, Proposition 188, and I heard about that. Then I learned about the OSHA proposed rule from my daughter who works in Los A/Igeles for a public relations organization. MS. SHERMAN: Was her organization having something to do with it? MR. GATHERUM: With the Proposition 1887 Yes, BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 T!1008-2136
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ma ' am. 8963 1 2 MS. SHERMAN: What were they doing? 3 MR. GATHERUM: They were opposing it. 4 MS. SHERMAN: I see. Was her organization also 5 opposed to the OSHA proposal? 6 MR. GATHERUM: I can't speak for them, ma'am. I 7 would assume that would be the fact but I'm not certain. 8 MS. SHERMAN: What was the outcome of the 9 California proposition? i0 MR. GATHERUM: 12 What was the outcome? What did passing mean? 13 MR. GATHERUM: Passing means that there will be a 14 smoking ban, supposedly, January Ist of '94. Total smoking 15 ban. Right now in California there are various cities and 16 county ordinances, et cetera. This is a total ban. 17 MS. SHERMAN: So in other words, it would 18 supersede any city or county ordnance? 19 MR. GATHERUM: That's my understanding. 20 MS. SHERMAN: Do you happen to remen%ber what the 21 voting was on it? What percentage were for and what 22 percentage were against? 23 MR. GATHERUM: No, I don't. I don't remember the 24 exact percentage, ma'am. 25 MS. SHERMAN: Did you obtain a copy of our Passed. I think the wording of it was funny. BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 1" TI 1006-2137
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 proposal? Preamble. proposal? 8964 MR. GATHERUM: MS. SHERMAN: MR.'GATHERUM: MS. SHERMAN: MR. GATHERUM: MS. SHERMAN: MR. GATHERUM: Yes, I did. Did you read it? Yes, I did. And the Preamble? The Preamble? Yes. I'm not sure I received the MS. SHERMAN: Where did you get your copy of the MR. GATHERUM: From my daughter. MS. SHERMAN: Are you familiar with the discussion in the proposal of the health effects associated with environmental tobacco smoke? MR. GATHERUM: No, ma'am. MS. SHERMAN: So you don't have any opinion as to whether environmental tobacco smoke is harmful or not? MR. GATHERUM: The thing that comes to my mind as I read in one of the proposals or one of the analyses or synopsis of this is that in fact it's not totally supported that second hand smoke is as dangerous or deadly as it's made out to be. MS. SHERMAN: But you haven't read any of the literature on this issue? BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2138
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 25 8965 MR. GATHERUM: I haven't read anything more than the copy of the health standards, the proposal I believe is what it would be. OSHAextends comment period and reschedules, and I got a few other documents here about the proposal. MS. SHERMAN: And you read in the OSHAproposal that it's not well documented... MR. GATHERUM: No, no. I read in one of the analyses of the proposal that second hand smoke is apparently not as... reasonable doubt. MS. SHERMAN: analysis? MR. GATHERUM: MS. SHERMAN: It's not conclusively proven beyond a Do you remember who did that No, I don't. On what are you basing your statement that everyone involved in tourism would be hurt by the adoption of the OSHA proposal? MR. GATHERUM: I think the traveler who wants to visit a specific designation, if he or she is a smoker, would be hurt. I think the industry, the travel industry, the mode of transportation, the locat~on where they're staying whether it be a hotel or whatever, would be severely impacted. I think the restaurants, bars, virtually every place would be impacted if they were not allowed an opportunity to smoke in their room or in a bar or in BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1008-2139
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1 2 3 5 6 7 8 9 I0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 designated smoking areas. MS. SHERMAN: MR. GATHERUM: MS. SHERMAN: 8966 Is this your opinion or do you... Yes, that's my opinion. Did you also review the part of the proposal that dealt with indoor air quality? MR. GATHERUM: I read the proposal. Something about the part of installing elaborate filtration systems or something to that effect. Is that the part you're getting at? MS. SHERMAN: MR. GATHERUM: MS. SHERMAN: No. I'm sorry, no, then I... So you've only reviewed the part of the proposal that deals with smoking? MR. GATHERUM: Yes. MS. SHERMAN: Are you aware that the part of the proposal that deals with indoor air quality would probably potentially affect your travel agency since it's a non- industrial workplace? MR. GATHERUM: MS. SHERMAN: How would that do that? Well, the scope of the proposed standard for the indoor air quality covers non-industrial workplaces including most office space, et cetera. MR. GATHERUM : MS. SHERMAN : MR. GATHERUM : Okay. I asked if you were aware that... No, apparently I'm not. I'm not .... BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI 1006-2140
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 8967 MS. SHER~LAN: ...might cover your business. MR. GATHERD~4: I have not researched this in depth. I've read, as I told you, a copyof the proposal and a brief analysis of it. My statement is based on that, and my own personal beliefs regarding this issue. MS. SHERMAN: Do you believe that U.S. airlines suffered a decrease in patronage when they banned smoking on flights? MR. GATHERUM: You're asking for an assumption on my part? MS. SHERMAN: I'm asking for what you believe. MR. GATHERUM: I believe probably not. Not domestic. I think it's too early to tell about international. I know that one international carrier has prohibited smoking, but... MS. SHERMAN: I believe in your statement you said it appeared that adequately separating smokers and non- smokers may be enough to solve the second-hand smoke debate. MR. GATHERUM: Pardon me. Would you repeat that? MS. SHERMAN: I believe that you said that it appeared that adequately separating smokers and non-smokers may be enough to solve the second-hand smoke debate. Is that correct? MR. GATHERUM: That's not my words, no. But I do believe that local business practices, individual business BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-?787 (800) 368-8993 T! 1006-2141
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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 iI 12 13 14 "15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 8968 practices are generally sufficient to accommodate both smokers and non-smokers. Simply stated, I think that the rules and the regulations that have been adopted now, primarily by individual organizations, are adequate. MS. SHERMAN: I guess that I was quoting you your wife's words. MR. GATHERUM: I don't remember saying that in anybody" s words. (Pause) MS. SHERMAN: Ms. King asked you to testify for her is that .... MR. GATHERUM: No, no ma'am. As I stated, I don't know Ms. King. I am testifying in place of Ms. King. For some reason, whoever Ms. King is, she could not appear today. MS. SHERMAN: But you do believe that there is adequate separation of smokers and non-smokers? MR. GATHERUM: I think so. In my opinion, the answer is yes. MS. SHERMAN: What do you consider to be adequately separated? MR. GATHERUM: I think the rules that now exist, I'm speaking personally, about smoking sections in restaurants as opposed to non-smoking sections. I have a choice. I can go to that restadrant or I can stay away from BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-3787 (800) 368-8993 TIl006-2142
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 li 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8969 that restaurant. It's my choice. If a person wants to go in there and smoke, they can go in there and smoke. I know it and they know it. I don't think there has to be a total prohibition on a restaurant or a bar or whatever. MS. SHERMAN: So you think that workers should have a choice as to whether they want to keep their job in a smoking area or look for another job? MR. GATHERL~M: I don't know whether that's a fair question. I think rules have to be made to accommodate the workers. You have to be reasonable. If there is a number of non-smokers that are against it, then you can still establish some rules. You can have coffee breaks, you can smoke outside, you can have a place in the building. You don't have to prohibit it, and you don't have to make unreasonable demands on everybody. MS. SHERMAN: What about asking a waiter to work in a smoky restaurant? MR. GATHERUM: I think when you're going to hire that person, you make that clear. One of the job requirements, that you'd be forced to be in... You don't have to have the job. You don't have to take the job. If you know it going in, you know it going in. MS. SHERMAN: In other words, you think that's fair to ask the worker to agree in advance... MR. GATHERUM: I think if a person knows in BAYLEYREPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2143
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 8970 advance that this is one of the... MS. SHERMAN: MR. GATHERUM: MS. SHERMAN: MR. GATHERUM: ...to be exposed to smoke. Certainly. Thank you for your time. You're welcome. JUDGE VITTONE: Sir, let me just clear... Ms. King who was originally scheduled to testify, she has no connection to your travel agency? MR. GATHERUM: No, sir. I don't know Ms. King. JUDGE VITTONE: Then how did you get here in here place? MR. GATHERUM: I don't know Ms. King. if I would be interested in speaking to you this morning. said yes. Here I am, and I just found out about Ms. King, and I don't know anything about her. MS. SHERMAN: Who asked you to take Ms. King's place? I was asked I MR. GATHERUM: My daughter. She didn't mention Ms. King. Again, I don't know Ms. King. I was asked if I would be interested in coming to Washington, D.c. to talk about this issue. I said yes, I would. Here I am. MS. SHERMAN: for? MR. GATHERUM: It's in Los Angeles, California. What company does your daughter work It's called the Dolphin Group. I don't know of any BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 T11006-2144
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 8971 connection with Ms. King. JUDGE VITTONE: Okay. Then you haven't filed anything prior to today. MR. GATHERUM: I haven't, no, sir. JUDGE VITTONE: So we have no statements. MS. SHERMAN: This absolutely got my me. I thought he was somehow related to Ms. King. JUDGE VITTONE: MR. GATHERUM: JUDGE VITTONE: I did, too. No, I'm not. Does anybody else have any questions for this gentleman? (No audible response) JUDGE VITTONE: Thank you very much. MR. GATHERUM: Did you want copies of this, Your Honor? JUDGE VITTONE: Yes. MS. SHERMAN: I assume this testimony should be treated as if this gentleman is a walk-on. JUDGE VITTONE: Yes, basically that's what he is, I guess. We'll make him a walk-on. I will put these two newspaper articles... MS. SHERMAN: What do they say, Your Honor? JUDGE VITTONE: This is what he referred to when he was talking. It's a Daily News article dated November 30, 1993 on "Smoking Ban Extinguishes Convention Plans," and BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2145
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 8972 a December 2, 1993 article from the Los Angeles Times saying, "LAGers Burned by Smoking Ban." Exhibit 171 will be the Los Angeles Times article dated December 2, 1993; and 171(a) will be the Daily News article dated November 30, 1993. (The documents referred to were marked for identification as Employer's Exhibit No. 171 and 171(a), were received in evidence.) JUDGE VITTONE: Building and Construction Trades. Good morning. Who wants to act as chairman? (Inaudible response) JUDGE VITTONE: Would you state your name, please? MR. SANT: Brad Sant. JUDGE VITTONE: Would you introduce the other members of the panel and give us the full name of your organization? MR. SANT: My name is Brad Sant. I'm the Director of Safety and Health for the Building and Construction Trades Department of the AFL-CIO. Next to me is John Barry. He is the Assistant Director of the Stationary Department of the International Union of Operating Engineers. BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 F'--- TI1008-2146
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 8973 Next to John is Victoria Bor. She is counsel to the Building Trades. Next to Victoria Bor is Mike Andrews, and he is the Health and Safety Representative for the International Brotherhood of Painters and Allied Trades. On the end is George Macaluso, and he is a Senior Industrial Hygienist for the Laborers Health and Safety Fund of North America. JUDGE VITTONE: You can present your testimony in any way you want to. MR. SANT: Thank you. Again, on behalf of the Building Trades and our 15 affiliated unions, we appreciate the opportunity to appear before this panel and share with you our comments. We have submitted written comments. It's not our intent here today to repeat all of those, but simply to highlight some of the areas within those comments and amplify on some of the ares that we've discussed, and to attempt to respond to your questions. Each of us here on the panel will address a different aspect of the proposed regulation. I'll begin by giving an overview of the reasons we believe it is important that OSHAgo forward with a regulation on indoor air quality. John Barry will then discuss the Building Trades BAYLEYREPORTING, INC. (202) 234~7787 (800) 368-8993 Ti1008-2147
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 8974 recommendations to better define and differentiate between the respective responsibilities of different employers operating in an enclosed, non-industrial workplace. Mike Andrews will focus on our specific concerns regarding coordination and regulation of renovation and remodeling work within those enclosed workplaces. Finally, George Macaluso will address the requirements for employee training and education under the standard. Underlying the proposed standard there are three propositions with which we wholeheartedly agree. The first is that all employees, regardless of where they work, are entitled to assume that their work environments will ont make them sick. The second proposition is that this goal can be achieved for employees in non-industrial workplaces largely by controlling the quality of indoor air through the effective operation of the building systems. And in particular, of the ventilation systems. The third is that enclosed, non-industrial workplaces are, by and large, dynamic, multi-employer workplaces where the actions and inaction of one employer potentially affects the air quality of the employees of other employers. In general, we endorse the approach that OSHAhas BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2148
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8975 taken to address indoor air quality. There are, however, two respects in which we believe that OSHAmust better define worker responsibilities in order to assure that all employees working in these enclosed workplaces are adequately protected. The first area which I will address has to do ixpressly with addressing where the construction standards under Part 1926 control, and where employers and employees instead should be looking to the indoor air quality standard. Second, we'll propose a system under which the responsibilities of the various employers operating in these enclosed workplaces are clearly defined. Our object in both of those areas is to assure that overall, the multi-employer system functions adequately, and that the problems are effectively addressed as they arise. In our view, that goal can best be accomplished by holding employers responsible for those conditions which lie under their control while eliminating confusion and overlapping responsibilities. For us here today the threshold issue is determining how and whether this standard has any impact on the working conditions of construction employees. By its terms, the proposed standard applies to non-industrial settings, and it appears to be primarily concerned with regulating the working environment in office-like settings. BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 T!1008-2149
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 8976 In fact, after several careful readings of the Preamble to the standard, it is not even clear whether OSHA intended the standard to have any real application in the construction settings. To assure that the standard can operate effectively, however, it is important that OSHA addresses two aspects in which the construction potentially intersects with the non-industrial setting. It might be good to say here that we agree with the definition as outlined by the National Advisory Committee on Construction, Safety and Health, or NACOSH, for enclosed spaces. However, our first area of concern arises with the question of when a building under construction ceases to be a construction site and begins to be a non- industrial workplace for the purposes of regulating indoor air quality. Very often there is not a single point at which this occurs. Instead there's a process in which portions of the building under construction are completed and occupied by tenants, while construction continues elsewhere within the structure. These situations pose an array of challenges. For employers continuing to perform the construction increasingly in constricted areas, there are challenges on how to continue to meet the requirements of the Part 1926 standards. For those employees working in the BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 r TI1008-2150
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 8977 completed portions of the structure, the usual challenges of working in an enclosed environment are compounded by the fact that heavy construction may be continuing in close proximity, and that lighter construction, the finishing work, for example, may be going on within the enclosed environment itself. And given the failure of the standard to address these issues, employers and employees risk being left with serious questions about whether this or any other standard applies during these transitional stages. It is thus critical that 0SHA in promulgating the standard look closely at the dynamic workplace and assure that the responsibility for providing protection for all employees is clearly defined. To that end we recommend that OSHA amend the definition of the term "non-industrial enclosed work environment" to make clear that a building under construction or a portion of such a building becomes a non- industrial enclosed work environment when the building systems in the building'servicing that portion of the building are operational and have been turned over to the custody and control of the building owner. We recommend that it be made clear that until this transition occurs, Section 1926 standards remain in effect. Defining the work environment covered by the standard in this way will facilitate compliance by BAYLEYREPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Tl1006-2151
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 8978 clarifying what rules control under different circumstances.. This demarcation makes sense in terms of OSHA's overall regulatory approach. In addressing occupational health issues, OSHAhas traditionally been concerned with both industrial and construction settings in which the degree to which the air is contaminated is largely a function of the kind of work being performed and the emissions being released by the products the employees are manufacturing or utilizing. In those situations, air quality is regulated through engineering controls and work practices tailored to the particular exposures. That is not the environment addressed in this standard. Rather, the standard addresses work environments where the level of air contaminants is ordinarily controllable through overall HVAC or other building systems. The primary issue is how to maintain that system functioning in a manner which will properly address the varied mix of products and functions which go on in that setting. It is, therefore, important for the standard to make clear when that approach is appropriate and when the more traditional controls must be in place. These same concerns arise with respect to the manner in which the standard treats renovation and BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234~7.787 (800) 368-8993 TI1008-2152
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8979 remodeling. The approach taken in the standard is to look only at those protections that need be afforded for the tenant employees while such work is being performed. As with new construction, the standard's failure to deal with the employees who actually perform the renovation and remodeling will inevitably result in poor working conditions for both the employees performing the renovation and the employees continuing to perform their ordinary duties while that work is going on. In this regard was have two recommendations. First, as Mike Andrews will detail in his testimony, we are proposing a system of coordination among the various employers in an enclosed structure. It is critical that OSKA specify the manner in which the renovation or remodeling employer becomes integrated into that system so that precautions can be taken. Second, it is important that OSHA cross-reference the construction standards so it is clear to the renovation and remodeling employer that those standards are the standards that control. That is the end of my statement, and we'll continue on with those here on the panel. MR. BARRY: Good morning, Judge Vittone, members of the OSHA panel. I'd like to take this time to thank you and the panel for your time, allowing us to testify today at BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2153
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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 8980 this most important IAQ hearing. My name is John Barry. I presently serve as an Assistant Director in the Stationary Department of the International Union of Operating Engineers. The IUOE represents some 400,000 members in the United States and Canada, over 100,000 of whom are stationary engineers. Stationary engineers maintain and operate a diverse assortment of mechanical systems and a vast range of commercial and industrial complexes. These systems include heating, ventilation, air conditioning, refrigeration, electrical, plumbing, pneumatic, computer, fire, and other related systems. Our members work in a wide variety of places including factories, hospitals, offices, and apartment buildings, schools, shopping malls, hotels, alrports, generation plants, power plants, manufacturing plants, breweries, petrochemical plants, waterway treatment plants, and various government facilities. I'm a stationary engineer licensed to operate in the District of Columbia. Before coming into the IUOE staff I worked in several large office buildings, among other facilities. Most of these facilities were in excess of a million square feet of office space or larger, with a large selection of the latest state of the art equipment. I served an apprenticeship, became a licensed BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-~787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2154
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8981 journeyman engineer, and I've also served as a chief engineer. In all of those applications I've had first hand experience in operating and troubleshooting building systems, and in dealing with a wide array of indoor air quality problems experienced by employees working in enclosed work spaces. I will assist the Building and Construction Trades Department today by explaining our proposed IAQ system. By way of introduction, I would like to echo Brad's statement that the Building and Construction Trades strongly endorses OSHA's effort to confront the problem of assuring good indoor air quality in enclosed work spaces. It is our view, however, that the standard must be both strengthened and streamlined to best accomplish this goal. The enclosed workplaces addressed by the standard are multi-employer operations. To assure effective control of indoor air quality, the standard must clearly delineate the respective responsibilities of various employers operating in that multi-employer environment. In general, what we are proposing is that one employer in the workplace be assigned centralized responsibility for overseeing indoor air, with the other employers operating in the workplace given less responsibilities corresponding to the extent at which they exercise control over the quality of indoor air. BAYLEYREPORTING, INC. (202) 234~7787 (800) 368-8993 "T--- TI1006-2155
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! 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8982 The key to this system is assuring that everyone in the system understands their respective responsibilities, and the specific mechanisms for coordinating these activities. There are three related areas in which this coordination and cooperation can be spelled out. First in developing an IAQ compliance program and maintaining the documentation records necessary to implement it. Second is in operating an effective system for responding to employee complaints regarding indoor air quality. Third, is anticipating and dealing with renovation remodeling work conducted in enclosed non-industrial workplaces. I will spell out the overall system we are proposing and explain the IAQ compliance program and employee complaint response system. Mike Andrews will then specifically address our proposal for handling renovation and remodeling. The following definitions will help to identify our view of the IAQ standard as implemented. As proposed by the Building and Construction Trades Department, the central employer is the employer that controls the building systems on the premises where the employeesand/or the employees of the employers work. The central employer will be responsible for assigning a designated person to gather and retain documents necessary for the effective maintenance and BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Tl1008-2156
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1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 i0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8983 control of the building systems, to handle and document all related IAQ complaints, to coordinate renovation and remodeling activities conducted within the building, to oversee the employee complaint system, and to supervise all personnel involved in the mitigation of IAQ problems. The Building and Construction Trades proposal defines a designated person as the person who is authorized by the central employer to take necessary measures to assure compliance with the standard, who is knowledgeable in the requirements of the standard, and specific building systems servicing the affected building or office, and who by extensive knowledge, training, and/or experience has successfully demonstrated his or her ability to solve and resolve problems related to safe and effective operation of building systems. We will address the specific training requirements for the designated person later in our testimony. Under our proposal, the central employer will be responsible for developing an IAQ compliance program applicable to the entire workplace. The program would include a compilation of all the documentation necessary to maintain the building systems and to evaluate IAQ problems as they arise. AT a minimum, this would include a description of the facility building systems, schematics or as-built construction documents, locating major system BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2157
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8984 equipment, and the area served. Information about daily operation and management of the building systems, a general description of the facility and its functions, a written maintenance programfor maintaining the building systems, and a checklist for visual inspection of the building systems. The central employer will also be required to retain other specified information to assist the IAQ evaluations, as well as to maintain written records of employee complaints concerning building-related illness and sick building syndrome. As part of the compliance program, the central employer will provide all the other employers with employees working in the building with information regarding the identity and responsibilities of the designated person and how to contact that person, the operation of the employee complaint response plan, and the employer's responsibilities thereunder. The employees' responsibilities to provide the central employer with the information regarding the nature of the activities going on in the non-central employer's space. this latter point is critical, since the central employer to be able to assess whether the overall building systems are adequate for the load they are handling, that employer must have up-to-date information about the BAYLEYREPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2158
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8985 activities going on within the structure. Accordingly, the central employer's compliance plan must require all the employers operating in the enclosed workplace to provide the central employer with information about A, the functions to be performed in that employer's work space; B, any products to be used or functions to be performed that may affect the indoor air quality within the employer's work space, or elsewhere in the building; C, any HVAC ventilation or other building systems located in the employer's space which are under the employer's control; and D, on an ongoing basis, any changes in the functions preformed, products produced, or products used, systems operated within the employer's work space. There's no question that the IAQ compliance program will impose certain paperwork requirements on both the central employer and the other employers in the work space. I'd like to make two points in that regard, however. First, by centralizing the responsibilities and eliminating redundancy, our proposal greatly reduces the overall recordkeeping requirements contained in OSHA's proposal. Second, much of the documentation we are calling for should already exist and should be maintained as part of a responsible building management. Base building blueprints are generally good for the life of the facility. The structure would not change without a new set of prints being BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2159
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 8986 done by a design engineer prior to any work being done. All facilities come with operating instructions and mechanical, electrical, plumbing, architectural and control diasrams. It would be impossible to build a facility without a set of plans. with the exception of the possibility of changing the system's mechanical controls, little will change inside the building system's design or operation unless the building itself is renovated, at which time new blueprints will be produced to direct the work. Thus requiring the central employer to maintain blueprints will not require creation of new documents. Even in our proposal that employers track IAQ complaints will add little to a responsible employer's paperwork burden, since much of the system is inherent in the work orders generated by the management company in its regular operation. It's been my experience that recording occupant complaints on a form such as a work order is a standard operating procedure for most property management companies. Performing preventive maintenance is also a standard operating procedures for a property management company which is also usually tracked by work orders. Evaluating the efficiency of a mechanical system is critical to budget planning for any given facilities so that it's a necessary management tool that would already be BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Tl1006-2160
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! 2 3 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 8987 employed. The critical aspect of any IAQ program is a system for responding to an employee complaint or employee complaints. 0SHA's proposal in this regard does not go far enough in several aspects. First, the range of the complaints to which employers must respond is too limited. Employers must be required to follow up on the complaints of adverse reactions to indoor air quality, regardless of whether the complaint concerns a defined building-related illness or a less specific sick building syndrome. Second, OSHA's proposal is not sufficiently specific in defining employers obligations to respond to complaints. The Building and Construction Trades Department proposal addresses this problem by designating specific responsibilities and response times for the various employers. Under our proposal, the employee complaint response plan will work as follows: The central employer's designated person will be responsible for overseeing the investigation and response to all complaints lodged by employees working in the building. Second, each of the non-central employers operating in the building will be responsible for designating a point person to whom employees must report their complaints. The point person will do two things with BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2161
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1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 i0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8988 those complaints. He or she will inform the non-central employer who will make a record of the complaint, and that point person will be responsible for reporting the IAQ complaints to the designated person. The designated person will make a record of the IAQ complaints and immediately assess the IAQ problem. If possible, IAQ mitigations should begin at that point. Any action taken should be recorded by the designated person for future reference. Within 15 days of receiving the complaint, the designated person will report to the complaining employee and that employee's employer in writing, all findings rega{ding the source of the problem. In the event that the designated person has not completed his or her investigation at that point, he or she will indicate in the report that the findings are preliminary. Within 30 days of the IAQ complaint, the designated person will provide the employee and the employee's employer with a written action plan identifying the source of the problem and the action to be taken. In the event that the designated person has been unaSle to determine the source of the problem, he or she will so advise the employee and employer. If the designated person determines that the employee complaint arises from conditions under the control of the non-central employer, BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Ti1006-2162
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 !I 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 8989 the designated person will consult with that employer in developing a written action plan. The designated person will have continuing obligations regarding the action plan. If the prescribed remedy is under the central employer's control, the designated person will report to the employee and the employees' employer' when the steps specified in the action plan have been taken. If a prescribed remedy is under the control of the non-central employer, implementing the action plan will be that employer's responsibility and the designated person will check back to assure that that is done. The designated person will also report to the central employer who in turn will maintain a written record of all complaints registered. The written record will include the nature of the illness reported, the number of employees affected, the date of the employee complaint, and response given to the employee and employer and remedial action taken, if any, to correct the source of the problem. Thank you for your time. I'd like to turn this over to Mike Andrews. JUDGE VITTONE: Thank you, sir. MR. ANDREWS: Thanks, John. I'm Mike Andrews, Health and Safety Representative for the International Brotherhood of Painters and Allied BAYLEYREPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 T1100~2163
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! 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8990 Trades. I'm going to address the provisions of OSHA's proposed IAQ standard dealing with renovation and remodeling in enclosed, non-industrial workplaces. The IBPAT represents over I00,000 persons who are uniquely involved with products that seriously affect indoor air quality. Our union represents paint makers, painters and decorators, drywall finishers, special coating applicators, wall coverers, floor coverers, glass workers, glaziers, and public employees. These occupations are an integral part of building operations, maintenance, repair, renovations, and abatement of hazardous building materials such as asbestos and lead paint as well as new construction work. In most cases we bring the source of indoor air pollution with us. People in our industries prepare surfaces for decorative finishes through means of sanding, scraping, or chemical removal processes, and then apply new paint and specialty coatings through a variety of methods that can liberate toxins into the atmosphere. Our members install carpet and floor coverings which are, along with their respective adhesives, the source of gases, vapors and fibers that can be harmful to workers and building occupants. OSHA's proposed IAQ standard will establish greater controls over the release of harmful fumes, vapors, BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 T11006-2164
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 8991 and dust in buildings by contractors and workers and reduce problems of poor air quality. Exposures to solvents, paints and special coatings along with dust and fumes generated during construction processes are a major contributor to accidents and illnesses among this population. Annually, Painters and Allied Trades workers apply over nine billion pounds of paint and a related volume of solvents are used to prepare surfaces or clean tools. We work with other products such as caulk, drywall finishing compounds and adhesives, many of which contain hazardous chemicals. Among the over 3,000 products we use at the work site, there are over 150 chemicals that are known or suspected carcinogens. The International Research Academy on Cancers, a branch of the World Health Organization, declared in a 1988 monograph that painting, overall, is a cancer-causing trade. Research suggests that painters and their offspring have elevated risks of cancer at II body sites, have 16-fold excess cancer rates, and show a consistent excess of all types of cancer at about 20 percent above the national average. Painters also experience a 40 percent increased risk for lung cancers over the normal working population. They live, on average, ii years less than the average expected life span of our population. Our own membership records show that in the past ten years, 24 percent, almost BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-~787 (800) 368-8993 [ TI1006-2165
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 , 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8992 one in four of our deceased members, died of cancer. Medical evidence clearly shows that chemicals, vapors and dusts in the painting and allied trades industries can cause serious illness and life threatening diseases to workers. In combinations, these substances and chemicals can have an additive negative health impact upon workers and bystanders due to synergistic effects. People can be harmed if exposed to a comb±nation of these harmful products over an extended period of time. OSHAdata reveals that constriction painters suffer more deaths by falls than any other construction trade. Slips, trips and falls, the most prevalent of construction site accidents, have been connected with solvent exposures. Occupational illnesses suffered by construction painters can result in lost work days, and according to OSHA, can run an average of 21 days off the job. We believe many of these accidents and illnesses are a direct result of working with harmful chemicals and products indoors without proper air quality protection. The problems posed by the substances our members use are well documented. Moreover, as I mentioned earlier, we carry those substances and these problems with us. Whether we are working on new construction, in empty buildings, or in occupied, enclosed workplaces, we confront BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-~787 (800) 368-8993 Tl1006-2166
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ii 12 13 14 • . 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 8993 the same workplace hazards. Just as these substances pose problems for us, so, too, do they present potential hazards to other employees working nearby. It is therefore, absolutely critical that in addressing indoor air quality, OSHA look seriously a£ how renovation and remodeling is done in otherwise occupied workplaces. OSHA's proposal makes a beginning step in this direction by requiring employers to develop pre-job work plans with contractors, to minimize the degradation of air quality for the employees working elsewhere in the building. In our view, this proposal needs to be strengthened in two respects. First, the work plan must be developed and implemented in a way that takes account not only of the needs of the employer contracting for the work, but is consistent with the overall IAQ compliance plan for the building. Thus, the standard should specify that before commencing renovation, remodeling, or similar aciivities within a workplace under its control, the employer must meet with the contractor and develop a work plan specifying the manner in which the work would be performed and the steps to be taken to control indoor air quality. In addition, the standard should provide that the work plan must take into consideration both the overall building systems and any HVA BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1008-2167
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8994 systems that an employer may have in place. To that end, if the employer contracting for the renovation or remodeling is not the central employer, the employer must submit the work plan to the central employer before the work commences so the central employer may determine whether the work plan is consistent with its IAQ compliance program. The second way in which we believe OSHA's proposal needs strengthening is by explicitly addressing the needs of all the employees potentially affected by renovation and remodeling work. The proposed standard requires employees to develop work plans designed to minimize entry of air contaminants to other areas of the building during and after performance of the work. This only addresses half of the problem. It is critical that OSHA acknowledge the need to protect the contractor employees as well. As Brad noted at the outset, the standard as drafted leaves open questions about how it interacts with the construction standards. The painters, carpenters, electricians and other contractor employees performing renovation and remodeling must be afforded protection while performing this work, and the work plan controlling the work must address the mann in which that is to be accomplished. If OSHA intends renovation and remodeling to be BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Ti1006-2168
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 II 12 13 i4 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 8995 controlled bythe constriction standards in Part 1926, the IAQ standards should be explicit. If OSHA intends some other protection to kick in, that too, must be spelled out. I would like to conclude my remarks with a few observations about the need for an IAQ standard and what we see as the particular attributes of this approach to regulation. As far as the need is concerned, it is our experience that more often than not, when contractors enter a workplace to perform renovation and remodeling, little if any attention is paid to the impact of that work on the overall work environment. While others may assert that the voluntary system will address this problem, I can only say that this has not been the case so far. In his testimony during this hearing, the Building Owners and Managers Association made the following statement which, in our view, underscores the need for OSHA to intervene in this area. BOMAproposed limiting the kinds of work that would be considered renovation and remodeling for purposes of the standard stating that the definition proposed by OSHA "is overly broad and does not reflect the scope of work typically used by commercial real estate professionals. Renovation and remodeling does not and should not include painting, decorating, cabinet work, wall papering, ceiling tile replacement or other general repairs or modifications that do not require pulling a building BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Tl1006-2169
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8996 permit. Many of these practices are often done in conjunction with work that requires building permits, but should not be considered renovation and remodeling unto themselves." The reasons why certain kinds of work may require pulling a building permit have nothing at all to do with the reasons for OSHA's concern here. The standard is needed because regardless of the extent of the renovation and remodeling, painting, decorating, cabinet work, wall papering, ceiling tile replacement and the like, can involve the introduction of air contaminants not ordinarily found in the enclosed, non-industrial workplace and which, as I described earlier, present clear health risks. When work is planned that potentially involves introduction of such hazards, it is critical that there be a system in place to address it. The system which we are proposing has a number of attributes. First, it represents the kind of health and safety management plan 0SHAhas been striving to implement through its more recent regulations. In this regard, the system we're proposing mirrors that currently utilized in industrial plants under the Process Safety Management standard. PSM is a top-down strategy that creates a series of checks and balances between the customer and the BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 1"'--- TI1006-2170
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 8997 contractor, and that establishes responsibility for the safety of everyone involved in the construction area and throughout the complex. It employs coordination between the plant owner and the contractor, the contractor and other contractors, and down through the chain of command to assure a process that reduces hazards. Regular employees are reassured that a safety system is in place, and are informed of who to go to with questions regarding the intervening constriction work. If a problem arises, whether small or of crisis proportion, there is a plan in place, and individuals with designated responsibilities to correct the problem as soon as possible. This is the model we are proposing for the IAQ rule. Second, effective implementation of the renovation and remodeling system we are proposing should have the effect of reinforcing the OSHA hierarchy of hazard control which is fundamental for reducing toxic air exposures to workers and building occupants. Substituting less harmful products used in building remodeling and renovation projects will reduce indoor air pollution problems significantly, allowing contractors to use less harmful products in building components. Administrative controls will gain more importance as contractors educate employees to meet IAQ rules. BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-~787 (800) 368-8993 Ti1006--2171
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8998 Employers can reinforce existing workplace health and safety rules through IAQ policy. Engineering controls will become more a part of an employer's thinking as they plan their maintenance, remodeling, and renovation or other construction work. This will encourage greater use of fresh air systems to control indoor air quality and eliminate toxic air from buildings. Personal protective equipment will still be used by workers, but hopefully to a lesser degree, because contractors, workers, and building managers will work more closely together to prevent discharge of toxic air during the work. This will reduce accidents, occupational illnesses, and exposures to others. In addition, the proposed IAQ education structure for hazard reduction and correction of IAQ problems is very similar to the structure of health and safety education construction employers must already give to workers. The proposed IAQ rule also fits well with existins employer hazard communication and hazard reduction programs. Employers need to make only minor adjustments to existing worker hazard reduction programs to include IAQ principles. Similarity between existing employer health and safety education programs and the proposed IAQ training will simplify implementation of IAQ rules for building and construction contractors performing work in occupied buildings. BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2172
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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8999 Finally, although we believe it is necessary for OSHAto promulgate this standard to assure that all employers put these systems in place, we also believe that the IAQ rule can be largely self-enforcing. That is, by educating building owners about rules, compliance, and liabilities, educating building managers about the responsibilities in the IAQ process, and informing building tenants and occupants about the IAQ rules and complaint procedure, OSHA will put into place a system which can reinforce itself. Moreover, once building and construction contractors learn about their role in providing solutions to indoor air quality problems in the evolving clean building industry and are put to the test of having to participate in developing work plans to enable them to work in these environments, they will gravitate towards ways to make their companies more employable. The Building and Construction Trades Department and the International Brotherhood of Painters and Allied Trades are enormously interested in reducing indoor air quality problems and helping provide our nation and our industry with practical solutions to those problems. The proposed IAQ rule will go a long way toward changing the quality of the air we breathe at work. It will raise awareness among consumers about harmful products used in BAYLEYREPORTING, INC. (202) 234-q787 (800) 368-8993 Tl1006-2173
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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9000 buildings and homes, and encourage them to purchase less harmful products which will prevent pollution. It will raise the consciousness of building owners, managers, employers, and construction contractors about methods to reduce harmful exposures that result from toxic air and encourage the production of new tools, products and technology that will make our environment, indoors and outdoors, a safer place to work, live, and play. The IAQ rule will create a process where persons at all levels learn ways to prevent and reduce IAQ problems through a system that gives assurance to all employees and the public that building owners will act to protect building occupants. This rule can significantly reduce the occupational illnesses and diseases that are largely an unacknowledged plague among the nation's workers, and will reduce a variety of medical insurance costs as well as reduce lost work time and increase productivity in our nation. J-JDGE VITTONE: MR. MACALUSO: Thank you, sir. Good morning. My name is George Macaluso. I am the Senior Industrial Hygienist of the Laborers Health and Safety Fund of North America. We at the Laborers Health and Safety Fund are a joint labor/management organization representing laborers international unions, almost 700,000 union members and their contractors. Our BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2174
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9001 union represents employees in all industries from construction to the private sector. I'm here today to speak on one of the key components of any undertaking and that's training, proper and certifiable training. We on this panel believe that our proposed training requirements are modest. All we propose is that those that are responsible to ensure the safe and proper operation of a building know how to operate a building system and have some training in indoor air quality programs. To begin with, the designated person is a key to these proposed regulations. This person must be someone capable of identifying and rectifying existing and predictable indoor air quality problems and who, by extensive knowledge and/or experience, can demonstrate his or her ability to solve or resolve problems relating to safe and effective operations of building systems. We believe that five years of documented experience operating building systems will provide the needed knowledge and experience to correct the majority of the problems. We would be glad to provide this panel with specific recommendations for such training. In addition to coming to this job with expertise in operating, maintaining and remedying problems connected with building systems, the designated person must be trained BAYLEY REPORTING, INC, (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Tl1006-2175
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9~ i0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2! 22 23 24 25 9002 in issues specific to indoor air quality. The Building and Construction Trades Department recommends that the employer be required either to provide or to assure that the designated person has been provided with a minimum of 40 hours of training in indoor air quality management. Training must include at a minimum the requirements of the standard and its appendices, sources of indoor air pollution, health effects of poor indoor air quality, testing for and identifying indoor air pollutants, performing an indoor air quality audit, and resolving indoor air quality problems. An additional person to be trained as point person. This point person is an intermediary between the employee and the designated person. Each employer within the building will assign an individual to serve as a point person. This person needs only awareness training to assure that he or she can effectively respond to employee complaints. This serves as a communication link to the controlling employer's designated person. Mere are three examples of what will constitute awareness training: a basic understanding of the standard; knowledge of the reporting system, and how they fit in; and a general awareness of indoor air quality concerns. As far as the tenant employees in the building, they should be provided with information regarding BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234~7787 (800) 368-8993 ! TI1008-2176
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! 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9003 requirements of the standard, the identity of the point person and how to contact him or her, and under what conditions. The nature of information available to them from both the controlling employer and where appropriate, their own employer and the operation of the employee complaint response plan. This information can be provided either through meetings with the employees, or possibly through posting a notice in the workplace. In conclusion, these modest training requirements that we propose will not cause any undue hardship to employers, and will lead to a much safer environment for millions of workers in this country. Thank you very much. JUDGE VITTONE: Thank you, sir. Ms. Kaplan? MS. KAPLAN: I assume the membership of all of your unions is limited to U.S. members except the Laborers Health and Safety Fund? MR. MACALUSO: I won't speak on the other unions, but the Laborers Health and Safety Fund would be Canada and the United States. MS. KAPLAN: Do you know what percentage of your members are U.S. members? MR. MACALUSO: No, I don't. BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 T|1006-2177
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9004 MS. BOR: The ~uilding Trades Department has 15 affiliated national and international unions. I don't know off-hand how many of them have Canadian memberships. It's not simply limited to the Laborers. MR. ANDREWS: The International Brother of Painters and Allied Trades has 20,000 Canadian members and 100,000 U.S. members. MR. SANT: I think at least six or seven of the 15 are international -- U.S. and Canada. MS. BO~: And I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of the employees represented by the affiliates are in the United States. MS. KAPLAN: Mr. Sant, I believe you gave your interpretation of when a building under construction becomes enclosed when the building systems are operating. Have you encountered any problems where there's partial occupancy of a building and other parts of the building are under construction, fumes or materials from the parts still under construction moving into the finished part? MR. SANT: I think most of the information we have is more anecdotal than documented. There's been no system or requirement for documenting such complaints and procedures, but there have been complaints, as Mike has pointed out, I think the Carpenters as well, when you get into a lot of renovation, employees are affected, off- BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Tl1008-2178
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9005 gassing of new carpet fumes. This type of anecdotal information that we have, but I'm not aware of anything that is specifically documented. Someone else may. MR. BARRY: Ms. Kaplan, I worked as an engineer in the field for many years, and I can give you first-hand experience about those situations I've experienced that in two different methods, one from new building constriction where tenants occupied buildings that were not complete from ground up. Another where renovation and construction existed on a portion of a building floor or maybe a building floor in is entirety while the building was still occupied. We've had problems with this for many years. This is something that if you picked an engineer off the street they could tell you about it and probably give you a lot of stories about it. But as Brad stated, there's been no mechanism for recording these types of things, even though I believe that there's a lot of documentation that exists in the preventive maintenance programs and work orders that have been reported where people have had these problems. It wasn't termed indoor air quality for reasons of liability by owners and managers, but this is something that has existed and been recorded for a long time by us. MS. KAPLAN: So there's exposure to fumes or particulates? BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Tl1008-2179
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9006 MR. BARRY: Paint fumes, asbestos, drywall dust, carpeting, furniture, all of those things are... They didn't happen yesterday. This has been going on for a long time. It's something we've had problems with and have not been able to effectively deal with because there have been no regulations requiring that the employers comply in some way in resolving those. MR. MACALUSO: May I make a comment? Prior to moving to Washington, D.C. I worked in New York City as a consultant. A lot of times we managed asbestos abatement for building owners. Almost all the time we would be doing asbestos abatement during the work day. We would isolate a certain portion of the floor. But prior to the controls in New York City where during abatement you have to have negative pressure and everything we would do demolition. The building owner would demolish the interior of the space without any controls. There's no requirement. That is very common. There is no requirements. One of the problems during one of the contracts that we had was with the School Construction Authority. We didn't have anything to do with this particular problem, but the ~chool Construction Authority did some interior renovation on a public school in the West Village in Manhattan, and disturbed a bit of lead which then became public through the press. The concerns that the parents had BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2180
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9007 and everybody. So just to answer your question, it's extremely common to do renovation, or abatement, asbestos abatement, during the day. Right on the other side where a secretary or an office worker is working, and directly on the other side of some partition will be some kind of work going on. MS. KAPLAN: With no precautions taken to... MR. MACALUSO: Well, with asbestos there were precautions. There were laws requiring it. But everything prior to that, there would be no, there would be various levels of protection, from none to a lot. But there was nothing to determine what level the protection for non- asbestos work. Interior demolition prior to asbestos removal. MS. KAPLAN: Often large buildings are finished during the winter. What steps would normally be taken to provide protection to workers working within the internal frame of the building that's partially or fully enclosed with no working central Ventilation system? MR. BARRY: Are you talking about construction work with no adequate ventilation system? You're talking about no adequate ventilation system to remove the toxic air that's produced during that construction? MS. KAPLAN: I'm not... MR. BARRY: I believe you're addressing a point BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1008-2181
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9008 that we made that requires that the turnover point is when the system is operational, that it's a non-construction space when the system is turned over. So what you're addressing is something that would be covered under the existing standards. You're talking about an enclosed work environment that's a construction space that does not have a functioning HVAC system so therefore, it would be, in our opinion and as per the existing OSHA standards, that would be a construction space covered under 1926-10. MR. ANDREWS: Could I respond to that? I worked for 16 years in Fairbanks, Alaska. We didn't paint igloos up there, although people ask me everywhere I go. But the point was, in order to extend the construction season we would have to enclose the buildings and that created a lot of problems which we would allude to as a confined space problem, in essence, because the workers inside were dealing with the toxins with no adequate ventilation system. However, during remodeling and renovation,~ and also tight buildings for energy efficiency, we relied heavily on the HVA system being shut off and to vent out the toxic air from that work space and literally, in the absence of a rule, would have to take care of that because those are the type of conditions that could create havoc inside a building, especially in that type of a climate. BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 T---- TI1008-2182
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9009 1 So we would do what we're suggesting you do here. 2 That is go to the people that ran the EVA system and say 3 look, we've got some construction on the 5th floor, these 4 things are going to be involved, we want to make darn sure 5 that this stuff isn't moving throughout the building, 6 because there was nowhere to go but outside at 30, 40 and 50 7 below zero. So it's something that we're saying, it's not 8 that difficult to put into process. I don't want to rely on 9 common sense because we get into problems, but it's very i0 practical to find solutions to this if you have a designated II person and a process safety management type system in place 12 where that is looked at ahead of time. 13 MS. KAPLAN: What would be your definition of 14 renovation and remodeling? We've had some discussion about 15 how narrow or broad these definitions should be and what 16 activities they should encompass. Could you give me any 17 suggestions? 18 MR. ANDREWS: We came across this in the EPA lead 19 rules regarding renovation and remodeling, and where does 20 _ certification kick in or notification to occupants. We're 21 of a mind that wherever anyone is employed to do any type of 22 work that can be considered redecorating or remodeling or 23 renovation, wherever there are employees concerned, that is 24 renovation and remodeling. We don't think it can be 25 determined by square footage or building permits or size of BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2183
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9010 volume of a contract. It's Khe actual type of work that's being performed. If it's producing toxic air or hazards to workers and others, then it should be considered a construction aspect, in our opinion, and certainly be considered renovation or remodeling. So I don't think it can be knocked down to whether there's a building permit or not. We're dealing with the same thing within lead. Why should someone be exposed to the lead dust when they're having their bathroom repainted because it's not considered renovation and remodeling? We say that it is. MS. BOR: In our written comments that we filed in August, the Department endorsed the language that was recommended by the Advisory Committee on Safety and Health. Their definition of renovation and remodeling which is rather broad. Just to reiterate Mike's point, I think our concern is that you don't look at the extent of the work being done, but rather the substances that are being introduced. When work is being done that requires or that involves the introduction of substances that require, by their very nature, ventilation or some sort of protective mechanisms, then you need to have this kind of coordination and work plan. MS. KAPLAN: So you would include painting. MS. BOR: Absolutely. BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1008-.2184
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9011 MS. KAPLAN: And you would include, even if it's minor repair work if it involves some escape of toxins. MR. ANDREWS: If it's not maintenance and operations, then it must be something else. We'd say that's renovation. Certainly painting. Because as I've stated, 24 percent of our members have died of cancers. It's a cancer- causing occupation. Until consumers and building owners understand the problems that we face, we're going to continually have to deal with this hazard. MS. KAPLAN: It sounds like it's fairly common for your members to be doing renovation and remodeling work while other employees in the office are around? MR. ANDREWS: Absolutely. MS. KAPLAN: The majority of the time would that be true? MR. BARRY: Can I share a story with you? I ride a commuter train to work, to and from D.C. every day. It just so happened that on Friday of last week I was talking to a couple that works here in town. They work for a federal agency, so I'm not going to tell you who they are or what agency it is. They declined to testify here today because they feared for their jobs, and they also thought there would be nothing that would be accomplished here. But to describe the situation, these employees BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-~7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2185
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1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 i0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 2~ 9012 have desks side by side, in the same area, and literally at this close a distance there's a plastic wall, there's an asbestos abatement project going on on the other side, there's renovation construction, they're tearing down the walls, they're redoing the space. The floor is occupied. They're there. One individual has missed 30 days of work in the last two months, couldn't understand why they were sick. When the issue of asbestos was addressed, the government agency issued a memo stating that there was no asbestos in that area. There were asbestos signs that were already in place. There were workers that had told them that the asbestos had already been removed. With any luck, this person will testify at the AFL's comments. But this is something that I personally have experienced for the last 15 years. I wish I could have brought these people in, because it so clearly illustrates why there is a need to have a mandatory control over this type of work in the work environment. But I just wanted to share that with you so you'd have an understanding of where we~are. M~, ~Q~; I'd like t0 add a couple of points. One is to clarify something that John said. My understanding was that these people didn't come not because they didn't think anything was being accomplished in this hearing, but BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2186
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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9013 rather that because OSHAdoesn't have jurisdiction over the federal government, that their particular problem would not be addressed. MR. BARRY: Excuse me if I gave you that... MS. BOR: We think something's being accomplished here. The other point I wanted to make is that we have given some examples today that involve asbestos exposure, and we understand that that's covered by another standard. But the point is, that with something that is recognized to be as potentially dangerous as asbestos abatement, when we see that kind of work being done with so little protection it almost goes without saying that things that are less obvious problems like paint, the issues that Mike has addressed, are done with even less concern. The other point I wanted to make is that Ms. Kaplan, you asked a specific question about what percentage of renovation and remodeling work is done in occupied buildings. I don't think that's a statistic that probably we could get, but I think the point is that it is very common that renovation and remodeling goes on. All you have to do is walk into any office building and it's very common for there to be renovation and remodeling of varying degrees. Any time a tenant moves out and a new tenant moves in, there's renovation that goes on. Or when an office BAYLEY ~EPORTING, INC. (202) 234-q787 (800) 368-8993 TI 1006-2187
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9014 space is redivided or refurbished or whatever. So rather than directly addressing your point about in the scheme of things how much renovation and remodeling... MS. KAPLAN: I wasn't looking for a specific number, just your experience. MS. BOR: It's just very common. MS. KAPLAN: What about the people who are doing the renovation and remodeling? What sort of protections are they afforded? MR. MACALUSO: To give you an idea. I'll stress this again. I'll be incredibly redundant, I'll repeat it. I don't have a number. It's extremely common for work to take place for example, it was extremely common for mastic remover to take place during night time or during the day. Forget about the asbestos. It was being removed because the mastic contends asbestos, so it was being done as an asbestos abatement job. But with floor tile there's no requirements to contain the areas, so you don't need to worry about the asbestos. You don't need to build some sort of containment in a lot of cases for floor tile. But the removal of the mastic, just to get into something other than the asbestos, it's common to use a mastic remover where you just coat the surface. You take the tile off and then you coat the surface with this paste, and then you just scrape BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 T11006-2188
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ii 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9015 up the whole mess. This stuff is incredibly, it's nasty-smelling stuff. There was a couple of cases where the employees the following morning came to work and they were told to work. But just about an hour earlier, the contractors had just left. It was like an incredibly nasty smell. To the point where I was accustomed to this, I've seen this stuff before, and I couldn't stay in the building. This is common. This is incredibly common. MS. KAPLAN: do the people who are working with these substances have any protection from it? MR. MACALUSO: Generally not. We try to get protection for them, depending on the contractor. Unless it's stated explicitly in the regulations for using particular mastic remover and it exceeds the permissible exposure limit, not a lot of times, we try to get them protection. MR. ANDREWS: I'd like to respond to that. One is that of course, we do our best to educate, especially through HazCom training, workers, our workers about what to do to prevent these exposures, such as using adequate ventilation or proper respiratory equipment. While we're making some progress, I would say there's a lot of people out there that still don't understand what a label means when it says "use adequate ventilation" et cetera. BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Tl1008-2189
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9016 But what goes on beyond this, and let's even make the assumption that the worker is protected, is that a lot of the fumes or vapors or dust are still there the next day, or are moving throughout the system if the HVAC system is one that just moves it around. For example, a lot of vapors are heavier than air or maybe lighter than air, depending on the temperature in the room. Humidity may have something to do with it. Therefore, pockets of bad air, let's say, may still exist in a room such as where floor tile has been removed, as George suggests; where it literally lays there or moves to some other area and lays there because it's not an adequate push/pull ventilation system or whatever. So it goes beyond the protection of the workers, but to the building occupants. Many times when you'll hear the complaint is not by the worker, it's the following day when the building owner says, "Okay, now move into this area and go to work." They'll experience a headache. They may not even smell anything. Propane without an odor agent is odorless. C02 does not have an odor. It can kill you. So a lot of times they may not recognize the problem because they can't see it or smell it, but it's still there. A lot of it really has to do with how do we get clean air into a building and exhaust bad air? The more the people recognize that bad air is produced in these BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2190
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9017 processes, the better off we're all going to be in recognizing ways to get that bad air out. MR. SANT: One more thing addressing perhaps your specific comment of how our construction or maintenance and renovation employees are protected during these operations. I also read in testimony by some of the SEIU and some of the maintenance unions, a lot of times during the evenings when this work takes place, if it is taking place off hours, the HVAC systems are shut down. There's also this nebulous point of between what the 1910 and 1926 standards cover. Now if there's a standard that specifically covers perhaps the substance that they're dealing with or the process, they might have some protection. Again, they might, depending on if their employers are responsible enough to take these standards into consideration. But my assumption and my guess from what I have heard is by and large there's not a whole lot of protection that goes on. You don't even have the HVAC systems operating in the night and on weekends when this takes place. So you're not even getting the basic building system to protect, clear the air for these workers, let alone any extra protection. MS. KAPLAN: What about if MSDS' specify that a material should be used in a well ventilated space? Is that followed? BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2191
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 22 23 24 25 9018 ~,~%. ANDREWS: You could go all day on this one. JUDGE VITTONE: Please don't. (Laughter) MR. ANDREWS: But I won't. What is adequate ventilation? What is proper respiratory protection? This is still somewhat of a new science for workers and employers, and there are many, many different things to many different people. So MSDS' are very hard to understand for a lot of people, and don't necessarily transfer into a change in behavior at the workplace. MR. MACALUSO: I think your regulations will sort of correct a lot of these problems. Let's say improper ventilation, and we'll take that example back when I was in New York and when they were using this mastic remover. They would put, being that it was asbestos floor tile, there might be a microtrack or some exhaust system, high efficiency exhaust system in place. Okay, that's one machine they may have. That's not going to help when you put down about a half inch of mastic remover and just let it sit there prior to scraping it off. Your regulations, I think, are going to allow somebody before the work takes place to just say what are we going to be doing? Then say well, we're going to be laying mastic remover down, and this stuff smells supposedly like BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-q787 (800) 368-8993 Tl1006-2192
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9019 orange, but it doesn't smell too much like orange at all, and it's really nasty stuff. You're 'going to evaluate that and say well, maybe we need a lot more of this ventilation equipment there on site, instead of just one. MS. BOR: Part of the point here is that there are 'really two parts to renovation and remodeling. There's what is being done by the employees who are doing the renovation and remodeling. The question you asked earlier about how are they protected, well, they're supposed to be protected under the 1926 standards. Whether they are is a question that... As Mike said, we could talk about it all day, and it raises all kinds of enforcement questions for this agency. But we've got that set of rules. The second part of it is how does that work affect the overall environment of other employees wi~h indoor air quality? Part of our concern here and part of the point we're trying to make with respect to having you clearly delineate that there are these.two problems is that what we find is that our member~ are not that well protected to begin with. We're concerned that if you implement the indoor air quality standard with concern for only the second problem, the problem of the effect on the overall indoor environment, without making very clear that employers have continuing obligations to the renovation and remodeling employees under existing standards, that the protection that BAYLEYREPORTING, INC. (202) 234-~787 (800) 368-8993 T11008-2193
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9020 we get at this point will become even lessened because people will assume that once you enter an enclosed work space, the IAQ standard is what controls and that's it. It's very important that that not be it. MS. KAPLAN: I think Mr. Barry stated that as far as recording occupant complaints, that this is generally done on a form like a work order. That's generally standard operating procedure for most management companies. Has this been your experience with the companies you've worked for? MR. BARRY: The majority of the property management companies that I've worked for in specific reference to large facilities, have had preventive maintenance programs, and the management company would take occupant calls regarding temperature, indoor air quality as we call it now, but any of the complaints. Whether it be a squeaky door, a commode that won't flush, a temperature problem, an odor. I've had specific experience in chasing odors. We could spend a lot of time talking about that. But yes, that's a specific part of their paper system that exists now, and it's not an unusual thing to have that happen. MS. KAPLAN: Would it be possible for you to submit to us a few examples of that? MR. BARRY: Of a work order? MS. KAPLAN: Of the way in which complaints are BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-~787 (800) 368-8993 T11006-2194
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9021 logged. MR. BARRY: I believe that would be something we could do in a post-brief comment. We believe that's what a responsible employer would do. Our experience with responsible employers is that they have gone, part of running a facility is to do that. As far as giving examples of it, are you interested in a physical copy, or do you want some... What are you looking for exactly? MS. KAPLAN: Yeah, I think just a physical copy would be helpful to us. MR. BARRY: Okay, we can address that in a post- hearing submission. MS. KAPLAN: You mentioned it's your experience that buildings generally have as-built blueprints. I was wondering if this is mostly, if this is equally true of large commercial buildings and also smaller buildings. MR. BARRY: Upon construction completion and generally it's significant completion of the building, the contractor will turn over those documents to the building owner or owner's representative. The problem exists in that those documents don't always stay in the building. Sometimes there's not a responsible person assigned to operating that building. Sometimes the responsible person or the "designated person" is somebody that has charge of five buildings or ten buildings. Maybe they take those BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2195
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9022 prints with them and that person no longer works for the company. They tend to migrate. Responsible owners keep those and have duplicates. I've worked for companies that didn't have blueprints and we had to get them. I've worked for companies that had duplicates and had the ability to produce, at will, copies of those and change existing documents. I've spent a majority of time at one facility actually keeping up with any construction, renovation, and/or office changes that occurred, and doing just that, so we could keep control of the HVAC system. Because moving a wall in an office creates a specific dilemma in air balancing and air distribution. If it's not set up the way it was designed, there's not going to be the required air. I've done a lot of that. MS. KAPLAN: original documents. MR. BARRY: So it's important to have those Absolutely. And they generally exist. MS. KAPLAN: If you had a pretty knowledgeable person working on the system and the documents weren't available, would it be possible for that person to draw up some simple schematics showing the basic equipment and the location? MR. BARRY: They would be very crude, and they BAYLEYREPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Ti1008-2196
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9023 would not necessarily allow that person full knowledge of what the intent of the design is. The important aspect of blueprints and base building prints and specifically as-built prints, is that they give the engineer, the project manager, the contractor the desired intent of how the system was to operate. I could draw the systems for you. If I had a CAD machine I could make them exact. I couldn't necessarily give you all the architect's intent as to how the building was to function. HVAC systems, contrary to some people's belief, are integral to architectural designs as well. Therefore, some of those things you have to know the complete picture. You can't just take an HVAC drawing and know how everything is supposed to work, so it's real important that you have the architect's intent. MS. KAPLAN: I have a question about your suggestion that when the designated person receives an IAQ- related complaint, that they report to the complaining employee within 15 days. Would that recommendation be true for both BRI and sick building syndrome complaints? Or would there be a need for a quicker response time for some other sorts of complaints? MR. BARRY: We did not... Indoor air quality is a broad-based term to cover both of those. Indoor air quality also encompasses temperature, as far as I'm concerned. I BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 23~7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2197
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9024 don't think I'm venturing out away from this. But there are a number of factors involved in indoor air quality, so we would not encompass indoor air quality meaning just those two thinss. MR. SANT: It's also relevant to notes, those were maximum response times. I think depending upon the complaint and the hazard, you'd probably want to go quicker than that. We were trying to consider everything that might be complained of and a reasonable amount of time to respond. MS. KAPLAN: So 15 days would be the maximum amount of time. MR. MACALUSO: If it was Legionnaire's Disease, I .think that might require a quicker response than that. Falling under building illness. MS. KAPLAN: In that case it should just be taken care of as soon as possible? MR. MACALUSO: In that case, yeah. I'd say. MS. KAPLAN: Or something like carbon monoxide poisoning... MR. MACALUSO: That's similar to Legionnaire's. MS. KAPLAN: You described the hazards your members face. I think, Mr. Andrews, you were talking about the cancer risk and premature death. What's done or what can be done to reduce those risks? MR. ANDREWS: We're doing a lot through education, BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-g787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2198
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1 2 3 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9025 and certainly we'd like to have consumers and building managers more aware. But as I stated in the testimony, if we could really get people to implement OSHA's hierarchy of hazard control where we begin substituting less harmful products and use more engineering controls and more administrative controls, and also the proper use of personal protection equipment. We tell our people, you don't have to be exposed. These are not things that have to happen to you once you're educated. You can prevent all of these accidents and illnesses. You're not supposed to have so many randomly die from these things. Again, that's why we want to relate it back to that. Most employers, if they understood the hierarchy of control, would understand that they can implement IAQ programs that do the same thing that we do in constriction for our workers. Again, getting... If I can, in Europe when IARC declared painting a cancer-causing occupation, the consumers were the ones that changed the product over there. It wasn't regulated. The consumers got together and said we're just not going to buy these products now that we know what's occurring. A lot of solvents were removed from the workplace as a result, which has created a new breed of waterbornes and substitute products that ~re supposedly less harmful. While we have some problems with those newer BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1008-2199
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1 .2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9026 products, it has created a mindset that people should no~ have to be exposed to these. So it begins with substituting less harmful products, which is the number one piece of OSHA's hierarchy of hazard control. So back to fundamentals, I would say. JUDGE VITTONE: Ms. Kaplan, how much longer do you think you're going to be? MS. KAPLAN: Fifteen or 20 minutes. 07/DGE VITTONE: You've been up here a little over an hour. Why don't we give you a little break here. (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.) JUDGE VITTONE: Let's go back on the record, please. Ms. Kaplan? MS. KAPLAN: Mr. Andrews, when you mentioned the 21 days off the job that, I think you said that's an average of lost work days. I was just wondering if this referred to construction work alone, or also renovation and remodeling work, or both? MR. ANDREWS: Actually it's both. That's an OSHA statistic that says on average specialty trades for the year 1992 per lost time work accident, the workers lost 21 days of work; and for a reported occupational illness, they said up to 24 days away from work. That would include remodeling and renovation. BAYLEYREPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Ti1008-2200
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 iI 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. KAPLAN: as far as this goes? MR. ANDREWS : 9027 Do you have any personal experience I have reams of it. As a painter I even had it myself with occupational pneumonia as a result of the products that I worked with, thinking that we had adequate controls. There's an incredible amount of fact that exists regarding the illnesses that people can have as a result of being exposed through preventable exposures. But being exposed to some of these products. MS. KAPLAN: Do you have any studies or know of any studies that have to do with this? MR. ANDREWS: The main one is the 1988 monograph by the World Health Organization IARC declaring painting is a cancer-causing trade. That was an assemblage of scientific reports from around the world, based on these problems. MS. KAPLAN: Have you, yourself, compiled any data on lost work days? MR. ANDREWS: No, we haven't, but we're working right now on a study in the Northwest to try to differentiate between medical claims and lost work days, and workers comp claims and lost work days. But it's not in yet. It's very difficult to get all that information. MS. KAPLAN: At any time before the record closes, if you have any data on absenteeism related to these harmful BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 T!1006-2201
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9028 exposures, it would be helpful to us. .. MR. ANDREWS: Okay. MS. KAPLAN: Mr. Macaluso, you spoke about training. I wondered if you could relate your experience with training as far as IAQ. MR. MACALUSO: As far as IAQ, I think basically what I've stated in this, in my statement here is that the bulk of the training should go to the designated person, and the bulk being five years of operating a building experience. Just so that the experience is not just theoretical, but is also actual operating the building. The 40 hours of indoor air quality could be easily put together and is already offered in a number of places on what constitutes bad indoor air. How to test for certain things, be it carbon dioxide or formaldehyde, nitrous oxides or whatever, and how to possibly correct that. I think the ability to correct a problem would then fall right back on to the person's experience of operating the building. Knowing what caused a problem, what could conceivably have caused whatever is going on. Be it new carpeting, furniture in the case of formaldehydes. MS. KAPLAN: You offered to provide OSHA with the specific curriculum for training for the designated person. MR. MACALUSO: Yes. MS. KAPLAN: We would appreciate that if you could BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7.787 (800) 368-8993 TI1008-2202
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9029 submit that. ~. ANDREWS: As far as curriculum, we can provide what would be in such a course for... MR. BARRY: When we addressed this, we did this as a group. Curriculum is used more in the fashion of specific topics that we thought should be included in IAQ. It was not a finished product ~urriculum as it would appear in his statement. When George addressed that he used a different word because we felt that after reading that originally that that wasn't correct. We would be happy to put together a list of ideas which we have done previously on what we think should be covered in that, if that would be acceptable. MS. KAPLAN: Yes, just a general list would be... MR. MACALUSO: You're referring to the five years The 40 hours or or... For the indoor air quality program. the five years of documented experience? hours. MS. KAPLAN: MR. MACALUSO : MS. KAPLAN: I guess... They're two different issues. I guess I was thinking more of the 40 MR. MACALUSO: Okay, fine. MS. KAPLAN: Would refresher training be needed for the designated person? MR. MACALUSO: I believe it would make sense in BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1 OO6-2203
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9030 case anything new has happened in indoor air quality. You would want to stay abreast of any new equipment that might be available, any new concerns that might have surfaced in the prior year. MS. KAPLAN: How often would you recommend refresher training? MR. MACALUSO: At least once a year. MS. KAPLAN: Should the designated person also keep a list of chemicals used in the building by various employers? MR. MACALUSO: That would clearly be part of the person's ability to diagnose a problem, knowing what's in a building that would go with the job, basically. You'd have to know what's there. MS. KAPLAN: What about refresher training for the point person? MR. MACALUSO: The point person, I'm not sure. I haven't thought that out. A point person, we envisioned the point person basically being a person that knows where the designated person is, and to be able to address the particular problems. To address... Just basically a method of communicating to one individual. I haven't thought of whether there should be refresher training for that person or not. MS. KAPLAN: Do you have any estimate of how many BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2204
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9031 hours of training the point person should have? ~. MACALUSO: No, I didn't address a specific amount of time. I don't know if it's necessary to do that. It's simple enough to tell the person where the particular, what they're being designated to do, what this point person designation means. Some time on what the standard is and who to contact, and what the procedures are, be it 15 days, 21 days, for a response. How much time that takes, again, I haven't thought of that. MS. KAPLAN: I think you said you felt the designated person could either be in-house or contracted out. MR. MACALUSO: I didn't, but yeah. That's possible. MS. KAPLAN: Would the in-house designated person be preferable? MR. BARRY: Yes, in our opinion that would be... MR. MACALUSO: Absolutely. It would be ideal for having the person there. MR. BARRY: We addressed the designated person as a broader environment than what we thought because we know that in real life, for instance in the operating engineers experience, that it's more real life to see building engineers on smaller facilities running one or two buildings BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 T!1008-2205
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9032 than it is specific to one building. We'd like to say that yes, there should be one designated person in every building, but we understand that's not a reality. MR. MACALUSO: When we drew this up we kept in mind what is practical. We're not asking for one of these persons in every single building in the country. Impractical. MS. KAPLAN: How often should the designated person be on site? MR. BARRY: We've talked about this at length. The designated person being the owner's rep, should be within a phone call of that facility, should be able to be there that day. Again our ideal is that person is there and able to respond immediately. We don't envision that person being in another state or country or in another locality. We envision that person being immediately available. MS. KAPLAN: We had several provisions dealing with renovation, several steps taken when renovation occurs. Do you have any opinion on'how large a renovation project should be before these requirements kick in? I guess this goes to my earlier question. MR. ANDREWS: We feel that it doesn't necessarily go by size or building permit or dollar volume, but where work practices or products are introduced into the building that may require controls, such as where ventilation BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2208
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9033 controls or personal protection controls are required. MR. BARRY: Let me address that as well. One of the things that was made an issue that we discussed was that beyond a certain point in the building structure, there are codes and standards that require that permits be pulled for renovation and construction beyond a certain size. It's been our experience that a lot of renovation and constriction goes on underneath that parameter. For instance, if a wall is to be removed in between tw~ adjoining offices, that type of situation is what requires there to be indoor air quality controls. That is not something that would require pulling a building permit in most localities, and it is something that we don't believe that setting a minimum size on it would do justice to the standard, because it would allow a floor that would let people out of controlling indoor air quality. MR. SANT: If I might, I was just thinking here, taking John's comment one step further. Very common in construction, what we all often push for, is a job hazard analysis before work is to take place, just to look at the job and see what's going to be released, what kind of exposure are going to be safety, health, whatever. I think a similar approach might be taken in this standard. When this type of work, renovation is going on, it might just simply take a look at, have the designated BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Ti1006-2207
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9034 person perhaps do a job hazard analysis of what kind of exposure's going to be here. In that person's informed opinion there's going to be a substantial hazard. That . determination should be made. I think that's the kind of approach we think needs to be made, rather than a dollar or size or any other type of approach. MS. KAPLAN: In your written comments that were submitted earlier, you summarized information that each employer should provide to the central employer, and you didn't include hours of occupancy. I wondered if there was a reason for excluding that. MR. BARRY: proposal, was it not? MS. KAPLAN: MR. BARRY : That was included in your original In this standard? Yes. This is an addition, where we thought there should be corrections. We're expanding on those ideas. But we agree with your original proposal, and hours of operation would be included. MS. KAPLAN: As far as your recommendation on when a building would be considered operational, how would this apply to high rise construction where each floor is filled out as a tenant is found for it? MR. BARRY: Say that again, please? MS. KAPLAN: Your suggestion on when a building is considered operational. How would that apply to high rise BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1008.-2208
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6 7 8 9 10 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9~35 construction where each floor is fitted out as a tenant is found? MR. BARRY: It's possible that a system, an HVAC system could be operational before that was done, but highly unlikely that the whole system in a high rise would be floor-by-floor HVAC systems, individual of each other. So in answer to your question, I don't believe they would be able to turn that over in the majority of the instances as completed with an HVAC system before it was actually constructed. You have to have the walls up to be able to say this is how much air is coming int this. Air balancing is done before it's turned over. It wouldn't be possible to do that. MS. KAPLAN: You recommended that any employer who remodels should develop a work plan to try to minimize air contaminants. This plan sometimes appears in division one of construction specifications prepared by architects and engineers. Are these specifications successful? MR. BARRY: By specifications successful, do you mean that that provides for indoor air quality? No. There's no requirement that they have good indoor air quality as part of those building construction plans. Generally speaking, when any construction or renovation is done of any magnitude in a building, contractors have to bid on the work. Therefore, there would be architects who would BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1008-2209
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9836 do the bidding prints. So they'll have a set of prints for doing this work, and then the contractors bid on it. But they don't allow for moving tenants out of the way. They don't make those arrangements. That's not their problem. That's the owner's problem. MR. ANDREWS: I'd like to address that, if I could. From our experience with a law in Alaska that requires painters to be licensed before they go to work, and part of that licensing is training for health and safety, to present hazards not only to themselves and co-workers but to bystanders. We found that that, as a law, because applicable within the specifications. Then the owners, such as the oil companies or whoever did business in the State of Alaska would begin to through the specifiers, through the architects, put that into their contract. So that was one of the let's say triggers that they would look at and say oh, we have to make sure that these people meet these requirements before they go to work here. I would suggest that this will happen if the rule is put in place, that specifiers and architects would immediately begin to look out for this because otherwise they're not going to be able to sell their product. So they're going to make sure that this is up front and that there will be emerging businesses, already are emerging BAYLEYREPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1008-2210
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9637 businesses that are saying look, we can reduce your toxics being brought into the workplace. Try us. So I would say that that would work in absence of more emphasis in the contract through the architect and the building owner, et cetera. There would be more emphasis because of this rule. That will begin to change the mindset of people who come into the building to do work. MS. KAPLAN: Thank you very much. JUDGE VITTONE: Thank you. Are there any other participants that have questions? Mr. Rupp. MR. RUPP: Members of the panel, Your Honor, my name is John Rupp and I represent a number of scientists who have submitted comments in this proceeding on behalf of the Tobacco Institute. I'm not going tO ask you specifically about any aspect of smoking, but I am struck by the different tack you're taking on the issues that you've been discussing and the testimony that was given on behalf of BOMA at an earlier point in this proceeding, the Business and Office Managers Association. If you'll permit me, I'd like to explore briefly a couple of those inconsistencies and see what you can tell us about them. As I understood the BOMA testimony, one of the BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2211
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9038 basic premises is that much of what we hear so far as indoor air quality problems is concerned, particularly in buildings that already have been built, are isolated instances, and that the proof of that in part is that there's such a tremendous incentive on the part of building owners to take care of indoor air quality problems without government regulation, and that incentive is the rent check. We can be sure that the rent check will solve these problems and the desire for building owners and managers to get that and keep their tenants happy. Is that an appropriate incentive? Can OSHA safely and appropriately rely on the market incentive here that building owners and managers would have to take care of the kinds of problems you've been discussing? MR. BARRY: Absolutely not. (Laughter) MR. ANDREWS: I'll wing it. I'd say no, just as a worker who was exposed, does harmful work may not want to go and make a comment about the harmful work processes of the lack of protection for fear of losing their job. When I buy a house, everything I hear is location, location, location in ~he real estate market. Someone may put up with something less than perfect conditions when they have location, location, location. So I don't think the rent check is enough of an incentive. BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 T11008-2212
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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 MR. RUPP : offer a comment. MR. BARRY: (Laughter) MR. RUPP : MR. BARRY: not true. MR. RUPP: 9039 Mr. Barry, I think you were going to did. I'd still be interested in hearing it. It's been our experience that that's Why isn't it true? Explain to me why the philosophy of that is wrong if, in your view, it is wrong. MR. BARRY: That the rent would be enough for them to concern themselves with indoor air quality? MR. RUPP: That's right. The notion as I understood it was that if there are indoor air quality problems, tenants are not going to renew leases or they're not going to take a lease in the first place. The incentive on the part of building owners and managers is to provide to the market a sufficiently attractive place that these things are going to be handled automatically. We're just not going to confront them with any regularity. MR. BARRY: I would say that based on our experience there's plenty of incentive to do all the right things to market a building and lease the space. It's also been our experience that there is a tremendous number of people that do not have the ability and the expertise to BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-~787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2213
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9040 take care of these problems, and there has also been a number of people who d not subscribe to his theory and BOMA's theory, Building Owners and Managers Association, that it's important to address these problems. MS. BOR: I just wanted to add a point to that. I think that one of the debates that has been inherent in these hearings is whether there are, in fact, indoor air quality problems. I think that we firmly believe that there are and that they need to be addressed. But to the extent that there are those who believe that they're not, or who, as suggested yesterday, address very serious health problems by chalking them up to psychomatic symptoms rather than some sort of reaction to the indoor air quality, I think it's a mistake to assume that tenants and owners will recognize these problems as being problems that need to be addressed, and therefore, respond to them by moving. MR. RUPP: So one of the problems, you're suggesting, is the lack of education. The lack of full knowledge of the ways in which a building can itself be the cause of, and building systems be the cause of illness and discomfort and consequent loss of productivity in the I think that's absolutely right. Is another problem that the illness and the productivity that we're talking about, the losses in workplace. MS. BOR: MR. RUPP: BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-q787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2214
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9041 those areas, tend not to be suffered by the building owners and managers themselves? That is, it's the people who occupy the building, and it's your people who are going in and doing the work within the building. So the hit on the bottom line as well as the suffering that we're talking about is not necessarily in the office suite of the person who owns the building. MS. BOR: I think that's true, and I think that it's also true that it may not rise to the level of being... It may not always rise to the level of even hitting the person who is contracting for the tenant. So it's not only the owner that may not have this awareness, but also the tenant/employer as well, so that whether the tenant/employer considers it as an element in negotiating a lease or whatever, or the terms of a lease, is another question. MR. RUPP: Ms. Bor, I take you were here for at least part of the testimony given yesterday? MS. BOR: Yes. MR. RUPP: Did you have an opportunity t listen to the testimony that was given on behalf of the American Federation of Teachers and National Education Association? MS. BOR: Yes, I did. MR. RUPP: I take it that the rent check idea certainly won't work in that context. MS. BOR: Absolutely not. BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-~787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2215
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9042 MR. RUPP: So if there's goingto be improvements there in a time of diminishing funds for education, something is probably going to have to be done at the level of an OSHA-type response. MS. BOR: Yes. MR. RUPP: I didn't hear any specific discussion in your testimony or in response to questions about off-hour problems. My expectation would have been that that would have been a major problem for the people whom you represent. That is, renovation work, painting, cleaning work for the other folks in the trade, and ventilation systems that get shut off because the office workers have left, and the lease requires that the ventilation system be left on only during normal business hours. Is that a problem, or is that a mistaken impression on my part? Maybe I could start by asking about the painting situation. MR. BARRY: What you're saying and the way we've addressed it is that our stance is that a lot of these problems take place during actual system operating hours so in part, you only have a part of the picture. A lot of the renovation and construction problems happen actually while people occupy these facilities. MR. RUPP: What about the off-hour problem? I take it a lot of them also occur in the off-hours. BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 T!1008-2216
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1 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9~43 MR. ANDREWS: Brad did mention that, regarding say the janitors in the evening who do the cleanup work when the system is down. We have the same problem in the painting and decorating trades as well, because a lot of times we'll have to go in overnight and do those type of things. That's why I stressed that while we may even be protected, it may be covered under OSHA regulation and have the hazard prevention, a lot of the things that we work with are left behind -- those gases and fumes and vapors are still in that building system. Because the ventilation system has been off, or even if it's been on and there hasn't been adequate closing off of the system for other work areas, those fumes and vapors or dusts are sitting in the areas where the other workers are working. It's a huge problem. We'd love it if we didn't have to go and work at night and could be home with our families in the evenings, but one of the controls has been to send the painters off at night to do the work. MS. BOR: We see this as a serious problem, and it's a serious problem that affects the people whom we represent as well as tenants. We do not have a specific proposal at this time for addressing it. It's something we're grappling with. MR. RUPP: That may be a useful piece to submit in the post-hearing period. BAYLEYREPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7~787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2217
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1 2 3 4 5 9 i0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9044 MR. SANT: I think also part of what we get to it is the demarcation between when construction standards apply and when the indoor air quality standards apply. There will be offered some level of protection if we make clear that during this remodeling or renovation, et cetera, the 1926 standards apply and those protections apply for the construction workers. If the HVAC system is shut off, there's going to have to be some type of ventilation for the 1926 standards when those apply. So that's critical in making that distinction there. MR. RUPP: Let me ask you one other type of question. Another part of the BOMA testimony, again as I understood it, and it's been a little while, was that if additi6nal action forcing regulations are needed to improve indoor air quality it should be in the area of requirements that people who manufacture products that are used indoors, be required to redesign them or reformulate them to eliminate any exposure problems. You've endorsed that sa well, or endorsed a variant of that during your testimony. My question is quite a pointed one and it's this. Is that a complete answer? Again, should OSHA turn off this portion of the proceeding, the kinds of things you've been talking about this morning, and bring in the manufacturers of paints, of copiers, of paper, of wallboard, of carpeting and so f~rth, and go BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Til006-2218
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9045 product by product, category by category, and explore possible changes in those products or reformulations? Or is that an area in which, while improvement is needed and would be welcomed, it is not the complete answer? MR. ANDREWS: I'd like to take that. One is, I don't think it would make any sense to shut the process down and try to go on a product by product basis because I think that this rule could help the market actually correct itself and bring about let's say clean building business and clean air environment products. Let me just use one example. I had the pleasure to serve o the EPA's negotiated rulemaking committee for reduction of VOCs in architectural, industrial, maintenance coatings over the past year which ended in a deadlock and is now going to go to a rule and hearings as we are before here, where we tried to deal with it in a broad-based community, government, industrial aspect. You'll find, just as you're finding with trying to implement other clean air regulations, is that we are a long way from, for whatever reasons in our country, from having the new products on board quick enough to solve the problem. There is an awful lot of resistance, especially in the coating business to move into the products rapidly enough. They have a reasonable excuse. They can't change the manufacturing process and the technology rapidly enough to meet the VOC BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 T11008-2219
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1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9fl46 emission standards that EPA would like to see. It became very much a states issue and on and on. So what we found, where we hoped that we might in some pristine atmosphere may come out of these hearings, it didn't occur. Therefore, I would suggest that you need more of a direct approach that basically says we realize you're going to have to bring some toxins into this area. What are you going Zo do to prevent those exposures to workers and occupants, because they can all be prevented. You do have the knowledge out there to use proper ventilation and a ventilation system should exist in the building. So there is a way to work within the system while we're getting the specifiers and others to say let's do a practical, reasonable response to this and begin to transfer out the bad actors and bring on the new actors. We've seen that occurring in the lead abatement industry and other areas. MR. RUPP: We have to recognize, do we not, that there are limits in that area so far as technology and science is concerned. If you're going to take the paint out of an oil-based paint brush, you're probably going to have to use some material that's going to small bad, that's going to release VOCs, and ~t this point there are no ready alternatives, and none on the horizon. MR. ANDREWS: As a matter of fact, we're finding BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-~787 (800) 368-8993 Tl1008-2220
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9047 there's all kinds of alternatives to that, mostly driven by the European experience on that. But it doesn't mean that they aren't introducing as harmful products into the new waterbornes reduced vOC products. Those products are not necessarily tested on animals, they're tested on workers as they're introduced into the workplace. So we have a real problem with that. What we're saying is if you would please allow us to put in the proper engineering controls, if you can't substitute the product, then let us do the proper engineeringcontrols such as with the HVA systems or a normal operating building system, and we can eliminate a lot of these problems not only for the worker but for the occupant and for that manufacturer who is trying to move into the next century with these clean air products. So it's more of a let's all get in this area together and see what we can do in the mean time while we're changing the consumer's mindset. MR. RUPP: Thank you very much. Thank you, Your Honor. JUDGE VITTONE: Thank you, Mr. Rupp. Anybody else? Ms. Alexander. MS. ALEXANDER: Darryl Alexander, American Federation of Teachers. BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1008-2221
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9048 I just have two very brief questions. On the training for the designated person, I was wondering in your curriculum if you have anything on cleaning, cleaning that will reduce VOCs and particulates? MR. MACALUSO: I think the way I envision the curriculum as not, it's only 40 hours. I wouldn't think it would contain something on that specific. But it would be a general overview on what you would expect the VOCs being emitted off of a particular product... This person would know that certain products, just like I believe Ms. Kaplan said would this person have a list of chemicals. That list would include the products that cleaning people use, and would be aware of what will be emitted into the environment. If that answers your question. MS. BOR: Let me just add, we meant to express this caveat earlier, in that we have specifically not addressed the training that would be appropriate for custodial or maintenance employees. We view that as an issue that we really cannot speak to. we should have noted that there is probably another class of employees who need to be trained. MS. ALEXANDER: My second question is for the entire panel. If you have given any thought to what followup a designated person should do to see if any mitigation worked for a complaint. BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Ti1006-2222
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9Q&9 ~.~. BARRY: That was addressed in the comments we made. We gave specific time periods, we gave specific... MS. ALEXANDER: For a plan, but I was just wondering as far as following up to make sure that any mitigation that was undertaken was... MR. BARRY: We addressed that specifically, step by step, and gave deadlines for each step of the action and how that followup would occur. MS. BOR: Actually, I think you are raising another question. We specifically addressed the need for the designated person to keep on top of things and make sure that the action plan is implemented. We did not address, and I think your point is a good one, followup after that to see whether the action plan had the effect that it was intended to. I think that's something that we should give some consideration to. I think there should be some regular monitoring both of the system in general and that kind of followup. MS. ALEXANDER: Thank you. JUDGE VITTONE: Thank you, Ms. Alexander. I just have one real quick question. Mr. Andrews, you gave out a figure, I think ! heard you correctly, that kind of caught my attention. You said 24 percent of your membership dies of cancer? MR. ANDREWS: Yes, it's true. We have a death BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1008-2223
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1 2 3 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9Q50 benefit that goes to dependents, and we just did our fiv~ year analysis and matched it against our ten year analysis. This is a member in good standing who passes away, that death is reported and a benefit is given. We also ask for a cause of death. In fact we're doing a large mortality study against cancer registries in five states, and it's holding consistent. That 24 percent of our members throughout the painting, decorating, allied trades, floor covers, glassworkers, glaziers, paint makers, die of cancers. Again, that's why IRAC declared in 1988 that painting as an occupation is a cancer-causing trade. That's world knowledge. JUDGE VITTONE: These are all kinds of cancers, or specific kinds? MR. ANDREWS: We have elevated risk of cancer at, I think, II body sites or 16 body sites. We have it at at least two times the occurrence of cancer. We also have major problems with birth def4cts among offspring, et cetera, et cetera. We hav4 very serious problems. JUDGE VITTONE: Okay. Thank you very much for your time today. Thank you for coming. We appreciate your comments. I do not see anybody from the Steel Workers or the Postal Workers. Is there anyone here from Eagle Environmental Health? Sharon D'Orsie? BAIrLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1008-2224
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (No response) JUDGE VITTONE: Nothing. We do have one walk-on. 9051 I would like to take lunch now, though, and then we will come back. If he is the only one here, we'll take him as a walk-on. He is Mr. Whipple, Michael S. Whipple, General Manager, Sheraton Inner Harbor Hotel in Baltimore. I'm also going to ask your indulgence. I've got a conference call that I have to get on at 1:30. It won't take me very long. But shall we say 1:45. (Whereupon, at 12:40 the hearing was recessed, to reconvene at 1:45 p.m. this same day, Wednesday, December 14, 1994.) BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Ti 1006--2225
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9052 AFTERNOON SESSION 2:00 p.m. JUDGE VITTON~: On the record. We've just had a brief off the record discussion. I understand that Ms. Sherman has made efforts to contact our other witnesses. The Postal Workers will not be here this afternoon. The Steel Workers? I'm sorry, what did you say? MS. SHERMAN: The Steel Workers? I left messages but I did not get a reply. JUDGE VITTONE: Okay. And Eagle Environmental withdrew on November the 18th. Is that right? Well, that takes care of that. We have one walk-on which we will take in a minute. I have been handed a letter from Washington Technical Information Group dated December 14, 1994, addressed to Ms. Susan Sherman. It's a very brief letter, so let me just read it into the record. "Dear Ms. Sherman: I am writing to inform you that the Washington Technical Information Group, Incorporated has determined that we will not appear at the hearing as scheduled on Friday, December 16, 1994 and that we do not wish to be rescheduled. We are satisfied with the content of our extensive written comments which we submitted BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 T!1006-2226
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9053 to the Occupational Safety and Health Administration docket on August 12, 1994." Et cetera. "Very truly yours, Mark Kohorst." So that.cancels Wash Tech for Friday's hearings. Mr. Whipple. Take a seat in front of that microphone, please. Mr. Whipple, as a walk-on we will give you a limited amount of time to express your thoughts with respect to the proposed rule. Generally, you would need about i0 minutes? Okay. That will be fine. Would you state your full name, please, for the record and who you're associated with. MR. WHIPPLE: My name is Michael Whipple. I'm the General Manager of the Sheraton Inner Harbor Hotel and represent that hotel in Baltimore. JUDGE VITTONE: Very good. You may begin now. MR. WHIPPLE: Thanks. Again, my name is Mike Whipple. I represent the Sheraton Inner Harbor Hotel, which is a small business with approximately 200 employees located at the Inner Harbor in downtown Baltimore. I started my career at ITT Sheraton immediately after graduating with a four-year degree in hotel administration at the State University of New York at Delhi and the University of Nevada in Las Vegas in 1978. I started at the Sheraton Center in Toronto with an 18-month BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Ti1006-2227
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 9054 management training program; was moved on to the Sheraton Plaza in Chicago, which is a downtown business traveller hotel; was moved to the Sheraton Palm Coast, a resort hotel in Palm Coast, Florida, The Sheraton Hopkins, which is an international airport hotel, The Sheraton Ritz, which is a luxury downtown hotel in Minneapolis; and then moved to the Sheraton New Orleans in time for the 1984 World's Fair. A large, downtown convention hotel. At the completion of the World's Fair I was assigned to the Sheraton Society Hill in Philadelphia for the opening of that hotel in 1986. And then I was moved to my current position as the General Manager of the Sheraton Inner Harbor Hotel in Baltimore, which is located within one block of the internationally recognized Inner Harbor, as well as about two blocks from Royal Park at Camden Yards. We have a 337 room hotel connected to the Baltimore Convention Center. It has approximately 600,000 square feet of meeting and exhibit space, with an addition currently under construction that will give us 1.2 million. So we're doubling the size of our convention center. We expect it to open in 1996 and we've made significant preparations for that opening. We serve in our hotel approximately 90,000 guests annually, many of them for conventions, meetings or to visit the attractions at the Inner Harbor. BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Tl1008-2228
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9055 That's the summary of my 16 and half year career with ITT Sheraton. And I need to state that I'm here today to oppose the federal regulation banning smoking in the work place. I became involved in the Maryland smoking regulation process when I was asked by both the Maryland Hotel Association and the Maryland Travel Council to appear in court in opposition to the smoking regulations in Maryland. The result of those hearings obviously was to stop the Maryland regulations. In preparation for those court hearings in Talbot County -- I'm not an expert in this field, so I spoke to a number of my employees regarding the Maryland regulation and I was given lots of support from them. In fact, I have their full support. And I was provided with many anecdotal stories that inspired my testimony in Talbot Cqunty in the Court House. I found that our employees felt just as strongly about their ability to accommodate our guests as our guests do. They're equally sensitive about remaining competitive and know that the Maryland regulations, that I testified on behalf of, would hurt business and affect their jobs. It also appears that the federal regulation will have the same effect. We currently have our own policies and practices at the hotel regarding smoking. I have been the manager for BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 T11006-2229
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9056 seven years and I know that the smoking policies, or many of the smoking policies, were in place long before I got there. We've already addressed the smoking and non-smoking issues with our own policies and practices that give us the flexibility to accommodate -- and I use that term in the literal sense -- to accommodate all of our guests and our employees. Employee requests to not work in smoking areas or to avoid cleaning smoking rooms are always accommodated. Employee concerns about smoking and non-smoking issues in employee areas are accommodated. Again, we've addressed these issues and continue to address them as they come up. And we do not need the federal regulations to do that for us. Quite frankly, the reason we focused so much on accommodating the employee requests and concerns about smoking is that in our business we need the employees to do the same thing with our customers to be successful. And that's to accommodate their requests. We currently have approximately 75 percent of our rooms as non-smoking rooms, and this percentage has changed continuously over the nine year history of the hotel. It continues to evolve, and will in the future. It works. And it's continued to work for this hotel. Additional regulations are not needed and will take away the BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI10O6-2230
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9057 flexibility that we need in order to accommodate our customers and be successful. The flexibility that we currently have allows us the opportunity to accommodate all of our guests. For example, we have recently hosted a Narcotics A~onymous convention in Baltimore. What we learned in negotiating for this contract was that there was a very high demand for smoking accommodations. Unusually high. We knew of the demand, made the preparations and as a result the meeting was very successful. From my personal experience I have noted that foreign visitors prefer smoking accommodations in unusually high percentages. When we prepare for conventions and meetings with high attendance from overseas we make the necessary changes in order to accommodate their requests. Primarily that's economic reasons. The USTTA, the United States Travel and Tourism Association data indicates that that foreign visitor spends substantially more mone~ -- approximately $1,600 a day when visiting the U.S., which is significantly more than most domestic travellers. In the State of Maryland that equates to millions and millions of dollars annually. Billions of dollars over a period of time. Our records indicate that approximately 243 international visitors visited us in 1993. International BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7287 (800) 368-8993 TI1008-2231
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9O58 tourism is big business for the State of Maryland. The proposed smoking regulations, here in the making, we would expect to have a devastating blow on our business. We simply cannot afford to lose even one percent of our occupancy. In fact, we do everything we can think of to remove barriers to travel to grow our business. The proposed smoking regulations will put us in a very difficult competitive position in the world travel and meetings market. It will make us noncompetitive, and give folks that plan meetings and conventions no alternative but to take their business elsewhere. I can think of one international destination that I've worked at, in Toronto, that would love to hear of such a move on our behalf. A meeting planner is often not in the position of taking a risk of offending their attendees' personal preferences, especially their international attendees. We see the proposed regulation as a significant barrier to doing business with us. The folks that plan these, the conventions, have lots of choices. They have lots of destinations, many of which are international, that they can take their meetings to. In discussions with employees, it's interesting the issue of enforcement comes up. Enforcing of the proposed regulations is both impractical and cost . prohibitive. We in the hospitality business are not in the BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 T!1006-2232
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3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9059 position to enforce smoking regulations in the privacy of our guests' accommodations. Further, the costs of monitoring all the areas of the hotel and enforcing these regulations would be prohibitive. My final concern is one that's fundamental to our industry, and that's hospitality, accommodation and delivering on the expectations of the customer. No matter how I look at this issue -- and I've looked at it a few ways, especially when I was dealing with the Maryland issue -- these regulations will have a devastating effect on our business. We take numerous steps to accommodate both our employees and our guests, and these regulations will prevent us from doing that. My understanding of the proposed regulations is that even if we could afford to build smoking accommodations, we would not be able to serve our customers. Unfriendly regulations such as that proposed here, or considering what we would actually be telling our customers when they visit our property, strikes against all that we've been successful with so far. And that's providing hospitable accommodations for the travelling public. Thank you. JUDGE VITTONE: Thank you, Mr. Whipple. Ms. Sherman? Do you have any questions? MS. SHERMAN: Yes. How did you hear about our BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1008-2233
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9060 proposal? MR. WHIPPLE: I've spent a significant amount of time working on the Maryland regulation, and in that process I learned that there was federal regulations in the works. And I learned about it during that period. I was very involved in the Maryland regulatory process. proposal? proposal? MS. SHERMAN: MR. WHIPPLE: MS. SHERMAN: And have you reviewed the whole Excuse me? The whole proposal? Have you reviewed our entire MR. WHIPPLE: I've reviewed the parts of that proposal -- I obviously perused it and reviewed the parts of that proposal that would apply to me or my business. MS. SHERMAN: So you've reviewed the parts that deal with indoor air quality? MR. WHIPPLE: I've reviewed the parts that deal with the smoking ban. That would deal with my business and my ability to accommodate my customers. MS. SHERMAN: air quality portion... MR. WHIPPLE: MS. SHERMAN: MR. WHIPPLE: regulations that I felt would affect my business. And you don't think that the indoor I have not focused on that yet. So you haven't read them. I have reviewed the parts of the I may BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Tl1008-2234
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9061 have missed part of it. MS. SHERMAN: So you don't have an opinion as to whether you agree or disagree with the indoor air quality portions? MR. WHIPPLE: That's correct. MS. SHERMAN: Are you familiar with the literature associating adverse health effects with exposure to environmental tobacco smoke? MR. WHIPPLE: MS. SHERMAN: whether it's harmful? MR. WHIPPLE: MS. SHERMAN: MR. WHIPPLE: No, ma'am. So you don't have an opinion as to No, ma ' am. Thank you. Thank you. JUDGE VITTONE: Anybody else? Yes. This gentleman first, and then Mr. Rupp. Mr. Smith, isn't it? MR. SMITH: Yes. My name is David Smith. I'm representing Philip Morris. Just a few questions, Mr. Whipple. Mow is... Is the Sheraton Hotel an international hotel? MR. WHIPPLE: Actually, ITT Sheraton is probably the most well recognized international hotel company. We're in 62 countries and for the international traveller we are BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Ti1006-2235
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the preferred hotel company. get a lot of that business. MR. SMITH: I see. 9062 So when visiting Baltimore, we You testified that the U.S. Travel and Tourism Association has indicated that international travelers spend an average of $1,600 a day when they visit the United States. I'm not familiar with this organization. Is it a private organization or a government organization? MR. WHIPPLE: I believe it's quasi, or it's a public-private partnership promoting tourism internationally. MR. SMITH: Okay. Why would you say it is that U.S. domestic travelers spend less than international? Or do they spend less than international travelers? MR. WHIPPLE: I know that the international travelers spend significantly more because they generally stay in accommodations that ~re a little bit more expensive. They tend to engage in activities that tend to be a little bit more expensive because'they travel to the U.S. less frequently than domestic travelers do. We as domestic travelers think in terms of, "I'm sta~ing at a motel," or staying at an off-brand hotel company as being okay because we understand their standards. But an international traveler often stays at a well known hotel company, generally a little bit more expensive, and BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1008-2236
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4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9063 spends significantly more money when they travel abroad. MR. SMITH: Mr. Whipple, do you have an idea of how this smoking regulation specifically the effect on international travel, international tourism, how that would affect tourism business in the United States or even in your State of Maryland? MR. WHIPPLE: All I can think of is the image that gives travel to the United States. If in my culture, if in my society it's acceptable to smoke in the privacy of my own accommodations, and we legislate or regulate that it's not possible here, it's a very unfriendly message to that visitor or that customer. In fact, when they have a choice, I believe they'd choose not to travel, at least to the United States. MR. SMITH: Have you had any past experiences with the differences between international travelers and U.S. travelers, that ever being an issue in the hotel business? I'm not saying necessarily smoking, but... MR. WHIPPLE: I've worked in a number of destinations where we do a large percentage of international travel. New Orleans during the World's Fair was one. Working in the resort in Florida was another. The South Americans come into Florida, at the resort hotel that I was working at, tended to be much more inclined to request and require smoking accommodations than most domestic travelers, BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2237
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 iI 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9064 so I have experience with some international travelers that leads me to believe that they tend to need smoking accommodations more often than domestic travelers. MR. SMITH: Is the hotel business, would you characterize it as very competitive or not very competitive? MR. WEIPPLE: I would consider it extremely competitive. During the 80's we built far more hotel rooms than our society or our country needed. Then there was actually demand for it. So it's incredibly competitive right now. MR. SMITH: What percentage of your business, do you think, that you could afford to lose and still keep the opens open, still remain in business. Do you have an idea of that? MR. WHIPPLE: I couldn't afford to lose any business. I'm not currently in a cash-positive situation so I certainly couldn't afford to lose anything. MR. SMIT~: Do you have an understanding of how this proposed smoking regulation would affect your current practice of accommodating patrons of restaurants and bars in your hotel? MR. WHIPPLE: From what I understand, it would take away all of my flexibility of dealing with those patrons and their specific requests. My understanding is that it simply would not be allowed. Therefore I would have BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Ti1008--2238
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9065 no ability to accommodate those customers and their preferences. Because in my business I serve customers. MR. SMITH: Isn't it true that there is currently no law or regulation or really any other government mandate that requires you to accommodate smokers and non-smokers? MR. WHIPPLE: Not to my knowledge. No. MR. SMITM: And yet you've voluntarily accommodated both employees and patrons at your hotel. Is that correct? MR. WHIPPLE: I have to to be successful in business. Because, again, the consumer has a choice and if I don't accommodate their requests they'll go elsewhere. MR. SMITH: Do you have any examples -- specific examples -- of accommodating employees or customers? MR. WHIPPLE: My example with Narcotics Anonymous was probably my most recent one, and I tend to have that kind of memory, where I recall recent events where we had a very large group of guests. In fact, it was most of the city. It was a city-wide convention that was requesting smoking accommodations. And we were able to be flexible enough with the facility and plan far enough in advance that we were able to accommodate all of them. And as soon as the convention was over we were able to put the property back into its current status of smoking/non-smoking and separating those areas. BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-~787 (800) 368-8993 T!1008-2239
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5 6 7 8 9 I0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9066 MR. SMITH: How about accommodating employees? MR. WHIPPLE: I deal with that issue quite a bit. I get lots of feedback from employees. Of course I go looking for it. I don't wait for it to come to me, especially when it comes to the lunch room, when it comes to break areas, when it comes to locker room, and I'm able to sit down with a group of employees -- many of the employees, not all of them participate, but many of them -- and work through solutions to those dilemmas. For example, people were offended when there was smoking in the lunch room during the hours of between 12:00 and 2:00, when most people enjoy their lunch, so we stopped smoking there and moved the smoking down into the employee lounge or the locker room areas. In a hotel, a locker room is a little bit more than a locker room because it needs to accommodate employees on their breaks. We also have air changes in that room sufficient for a locker room, which means that the air changes enough so that it didn't offend anyone. So we find lots of solutions to those challenges. And they keep evolving. It's not over, I'm sure. There will be another request, I'm assuming. MR. SMITH: Does your hotel cater private parties? MR. WHIPPLE: Yes, sir. It's probably about... It's probably about a $3 million to us. We cater both on the property and off the property. We have a Kosher kitchen BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1008-2240
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 90'67 which is unique in our business, and we take a lot of our catering off-premise because of the demand for parties in synagogues and in unique places for Kosher parties, including folks' homes. MR. SMITH: Oh. You cater in people's homes. MR. WHIPPLE: It's very often done. The big fund raising is done in people's homes, and especially when we do our Kosher catering business it's done in private homes. MR. SMITH: Well, how would you go about ensuring that smoking is prohibited while your employees are working catered parties in a private home? If the homeowner wants to smoke in his own house, how would you go about doing that? MR. WHIPPLE: I think that's one of the things that make enforcement both impractical and cost prohibitive. I'm certainly not in the position of telling people what they can do and what they can't do in their own homes. But I certainly need that business because that's where the Kosher catering business goes, very often, is into people's private homes. MR. SMITH: That answers my... MR. WHIPPLE: That would pretty much put me out of business. MR. SMITH: they cater off-site? Do your employees drive vehicles when BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 T!1008-2241
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9068 MR. WHIPPLE: Yes. MR. SMITH: I'm going to ask you this same question, then. How would you ensure that your employees refrain from smoking while they're in those vehicles? MR. WHIPPLE: I'm not sure how I could enforce something like that, so I would just have to trust that they are behaving appropriately. MR. SMITH: There's really no way for you to ensure it. MR. W~IPPLE: No. There's no way I could ensure it. That's correct. MR. SMITH: Thank you. That's all I have. JUDGE VITTONE: Thank you, Mr. Smith. Mr. Rupp. MR. RUPP: Mr. Whipple, my name is John Rupp and I represent in this proceeding a number of independent scientists who have filed notices of intent to appear on behalf of The Tobacco Institute. I'd also like topursue with you, if I may, some of the practical aspects of the regulation as it's been proposed so far as smoking is concerned. My understanding, and i'd ask you whether this is your understanding as well, that you would have to ban smoking in the guest rooms unless you were prepared to put each guest room on a separate ventilation system and exhaust it directly to the outside. BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2242
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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9069 Did you read the regulation the same as I did? MR. ~.[HIPPLE: Yes, but I can go one step further in that I service guest rooms while guests are in their rooms, so... MR. RUPP: Okay. Let me come back to that. I'll come back to that separately, because that also presents an interesting series of questions, but... So far as... Let's take a situation when there's no servicing in the room. No room service, no maid service, but the guest is in there sleeping. That would be permitted under these regulations as proposed only under that unique set of circumstances. And I guess I have to add one other factor, and that is each guest room in which smoking was permitted would have to be maintained under negative pressure. Okay? Now, how would you do that? MR. WHIPPLE: That's not something I can even conceive of doing. built already. MR. RUPP: The building is nine years old, and it's Ali right. Now, let's assume you were able to do that. Let's put the cost aside and whether it's feasible from a construction standpoint at all. Let's put all of that aside and assume that somehow it is, and somehow you come up with the money. Now. The regulation would not permit any of your employees, whether they were smokers or not, wanted to go BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-~787 (800) 368-8993 111008-2243
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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 into the room or not, to enter the room when any guest was present who might be smoking. Do you understand that? Now. How would you get the rooms cleaned, and how would you handle room service in those circumstances, in a hotel of yours? Of the sort that you run? MR. WHIPPLE: I hate to say this, but I'd probably, they'd probably do it anyway, because that's how they make their living, so... MR. RUPP: All right. MR. WHIPPLE: ...they'd probably just break the rules. MR. RUPP: All right. And let's take another. Let's assume, as maybe the fairer assumption, that you're not able to construct guest rooms in accordance with the regulations and so you're in a position that you have to ban smoking in the hotel, in the restaurants as well as in the guest rooms. Now, have you begun to think what kinds of problems you might have in terms of accidental fires started by people who decide they want to smoke in the guest rooms and without ashtrays, they put out their cigarettes wherever they can? Which may be the wastebasket. MR. WHIPPLE: I'd like not to think of this very often, but it's probably... The most regretted incident in a hotel, in the hotel business -- both in my education as BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI 1008-2244
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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9071 well as in my experience -- is a hotel fire. The traveler is a little bit unique of an individual in that they sleep in accommodations that they generally aren't familiar with, and how to get out of a building. So a smoke filled area in a hotel is probably significantly more dangerous than even your own home, because you know the layout of the home and how to leave the building. I cannot even comprehend of those challenges that you're describing. I haven't given it a whole lot of thought. But as soon as you mentioned fire in a hotel, all kinds of bells go off in my head. It is probably the most serious incident that could happen in a hotel. MR. RUPP: Let me focus on the situation you would confront in your restaurants. How would you compare the kind of restaurant that you run in your Sheraton Hotels, whether in Baltimore or the other hotels with which you've been associated over the years, and a fast food restaurant? How would you compare the economics, the kind of time people spend there? How would you characterize one as opposed to the other? MR. WHIPPLE: Generally, I think hotel restaurants or full-service restaurants are more expensive. People spend a little bit more time, they are conversing and doing business -- at least in a hotel restaurant -- and camp in. BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2245
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1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 i0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9072 I mean, they're there for an hour, or two, and sometimes even longer if they're doing business in the dining room. Significantly different than a fast-food restaurant. MR. RUPP: There are some people, I take it, when they're traveling and they've been out touring during the day or having business meetings during the day, the place that they retire for the evening -- and I'm talking about the entire evening before it's time to go bed -- is the hotel restaurant. MR. WHIPPLE: Yes. MR. RUPP: And is that something you encourage? MR. WHIPPLE: That's where I get most of my business from. MR. RUPP: Okay. That was my next question. If you think about your bar receipts and your restaurant receipts, how important -- and I'll add your room service receipts to that as well. How important are those revenue sources to the overall profit of the hotel? Can you characterize it in the last couple of years in the hotel you're currently managing? MR. W~IPPLE: I can characterize it in terms of mortgage payments, because I'm not yet profitable. MR. RUPP: Okay. That's fair. MR. WHIPPLE: My food and beverage revenue from the outlets in the hotel equate to approximately two of my BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI 1008-2246
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l 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 mortgage payments out of the 12. MR. RUPP: Two out of the 12 for the year. right. 9073 All Now, let's assume you're in a situation where basically, at least so far as the smokers are concerned, if they're going to frequent the hotel restaurant or bar at all they're going to use it as a fast-food accommodation. They want to get in, have a bite to eat and get out of there because they can't have a cigarette with their drink and they can't have a cigarette with their meal and they can't have a cigarette with coffee. So they'll go outside and have a cigarette or they'll go up to their room and have a furtive cigarette. Any thoughts about what that does to your bar and restaurant receipts? MR. WHIPPLE: My guess is that not only would that occur, and it would have a devastating effect on those revenues, but more importantly they would leave the hotel in bigger numbers to go elsewhere for, I'll call it snack-food type eating, where there is not an employee to cater to your needs. It hasn't been -- I haven't heard of it being developed yet, but I imagine these regulations will create a whole new industry of places where you can eat and drink without folks to cater to you. Perhaps somebody else will think of that and make some money off of it. BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-g787 (800) 368-8993 Tl1006-2247
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2 3 4 6 7 8 9 i0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 19 20 21 22 24 25 9074 MR. RUPP: Well, as these hearings opened, these questions were pursued with members of the OSHApanel, and at that point one of them suggested, well, maybe in a restaurant what someone could to is build a room under negative pressure, separately exhausted to the outside, and let people -- patrons -- enter that portion of the restaurant and smoke, and that while people couldn't be served in that portion of the restaurant, some kind of accommodation could be made to take care of orders, get rid of the used utensils and dishes and so forth. Is that conceivable in a restaurant of the sort that you're running? MR. WHIPPLE: I can't conceive of it in the hotel business. I believe that people, when they come and check in and they turn theirselves and their accommodations and their comforts and their security over to the hotel manager and the hotel employees, I can't imagine that they would tolerate that type of service. They have very, very high expectations. As most of ~s do when we travel. MR. RUPP: Certainly... MR. WHIPPLE: And we need to deliver on them. MR. RUPP: I'm sorry. I interrupted you. Were you finished? MR. WHIPPLE: Yes. MR. RUPP: And if you think about that in terms of BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Til008-2248
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17' 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9075 your foreign travelers with the kind of options they have, I suppose the proposition is even less attractive as a relative matter. MR. WHIPPLE: Absolutely. In fact they tend to be just slightly more demanding because they're not in an area where they can figure out all the things themselves. They require a little bit more service. MR. RUPP: Do you monitor how well your smoking and no-smoking areas in your accommodation and restaurants is working now fairly closely? MR. WHIPPLE: Continuously. MR. RUPP: How do you do that? MR. ~HIPPLE: I get lots of customer feedback. Some solicited. Meaning through third party solicitations, so it's not affected by employees or by people that work in the hotel business. Some of it within the hotel by the employees, the guest comment card solicitation, as well as I spend an enormous amount of my time talking face to face with customers. Obviously, that's where I get my business so I focus on that. And I get to hear lots of feedback. Including in the restaurant. In fact, most of it from the restaurant because people tend to be somewhat more critical where they do personal things like eat. MR. RUPP: Right. Now, I take it that the BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 T!1006-2249
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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 II 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9076 comments you'll get will go across the broad spectrum, whether it's the color of the chair, the cleanliness of the tablecloth, the quality of the food, the ambiance generally, how quickly they were served. What percentage, if you know, of critical or favorable comments -- any comments at all -- do you get from the restaurant patrons with respect to smoking in smoking and non-smoking accommodations. Is that a major issue for you? MR. WHIPPLE: I don't get any. MR. RUPP: Do you get a fair number of comments about other aspects of the restaurant operations? MR. WHIPPLE: Oh, sure. Especially the food. And even more so the service. The attentiveness. The promptness. Service issues. The smoking -- I don't recall any. MR. RUPP: Kave you had a situation where you've had a non-smoking waiter or waitress who has asked to serve only the non-smoking area of the restaurant? MR. WHIPPLE: Yes. MR. RUPP: That does happen occasionally? MR. WHIPPLE: Yes, sir. MR. RUPP: Do you have any non-smoking waiters, or waiters who have asked, perhaps because the tips are larger, to be assigned to the smoking portion of the restaurant? MR. WHIPPLE: No. No, but I wouldn't be surprised BAYLEYREPO~TING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 TI1008-2250
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3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9077 that it goes on. It's just that I haven't heard about it. I do know that most of the people in that business or in their profession of waiting on tables are there for primarily one reason, and that's gratuities. And most of them are willing to do just about anything that the customer could possibly request in order to make their livelihood. MR. RUPP: But thus far you've just not had a problem in the assigning of people to smoking and non- smoking? People have been happy or have made adjustments to accommodate their wishes? MR. WHIPPLE: Absolutely. MR. RUPP: And I'm talking about the waiters and the waitresses. MR. WHIPPLE: I have to. Because those employees need to be happy before they'll take care of my customers. MR. RUPP: Right. MR. WHIPPLE: So it's out of necessity. MR. RUPP: Right. Thank you very much. Thank you, Your Honor. JUDGE VITTONE: Thank you, Mr. Rupp. MS. SHERMAN: I have two more questions, Your Honor. JUDGE VITTONE: Okay. MS. SHERMAN: Mr. Whipple, are you appearing here on behalf of Sheraton International today? BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 T11006-2251
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9078 MR. WHIPPLE: I'm appearing on behalf of the Sheraton Inner Harbor Hotel, in Baltimore. MS. SHERMAN: But not the parent corporation? MR. WHIPPLE: That's correct. They know I'm here, but I'm not here appearing on their behalf. MS. SHERMAN: And how do you convert a room, whether it's a guest room or a convention facility, from a non-smoking facility to a smoking facility and back to a non-smoking facility? MR. WHIPPLE: is quite simple for us. Turning it into a smoking facility It's bringing in ashtrays and putting our smoking, guests who prefer smoking, in that room. Turning it back is a little bit more complicated. We've invested a significant amount of money in ionizers, both for the hallways and the guest rooms so that we can take the pollutants out of the air and the odors out of the room, as well as the dry cleaning of the drapes, which we've managed, or learned how to do, while they're hanging, as well as laundering the bedspreads and other soft goods in the room. MS. SHERMAN: So you do that each time that a smoker uses a non-smoking room? MR. WHIPPLE: Yes, sir. Excuse me. Yes, ma'am. Especially by mistake. Meaning somebody smokes when they're BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-~787 (800) 368-8993 TI 1006-2252
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 not supposed to. MS. SHERMAN: process costs you? aside. 9079 And how much do you figure this MR. WHIPPLE: You know, I've never really set it It's just something we do. For example, when somebody brings a pet into the hotel we don't determine how much it costs us but we've got to spend an extremely lengthy amount of time getting the odors and the things they bring into the room out of the room also. But it's not something we've ever put a cost too. MS. SHERMAN: Thank you~ JUDGE VITTONE: Thank you, Mr. Whipple. We appreciate your time today, and thanks for your patience in waiting. That completes all of our witnesses scheduled for today. At least those who have showed. Tomorrow we only have two witnesses scheduled: Roth Associates and AFSCME. I guess that's the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees. Do we have any... Does anybody know whether either one of these are going to show? MS. SHERMAN: We don't have any reason to believe that they're not. JUDGE VITTONE: Okay. Well, we'll have to be here anyway. BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-7787 (800) 368-8993 Ti1006-2253
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 9O8O MS. SHERMAN: I think we already had somebody. Simon Fraser University has canceled for tomorrow. JUDGE VITTONE: Yes. I had announced that earlier. Let me just ask you a quick question. For Friday, we have right now four groups, or four individuals, scheduled. MS. SHERMAN: Well, we have Challenger Air Travel and Allan Hedge, Washington Legal Foundation. The other two, according to my records have canceled. JUDGE VITTONE: Styrene? MS. SHERMAN: Yes. JUDGE VITTONE: Has Styrene canceled? MS. SHERMAN: That is my understanding. JUDGE VITTONE: Oh. Okay. I didn't realize that. And Washington Technical Information Group, which, I've just read that letter into the record. So we have three. MS. SHERMAN: Your Honor, I'd like... JUDGE VITTONE: Is there any reason... Let's go off the record. We're finished for today, (Whereupon, at 2:35 p.m., the hearing was adjourned, to reconvene at 9:30 a.m. on Thursday, December 15, 1994.) BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 234-q787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2254
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1 3 5 6 7 8 9 I0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 9081 TITLE: OSKA DATE: December 14, 1994 LOCATION: Washington, D.C. This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Department of Labor, were held according to the record and that this is the original, complete, true and accurate transcript which has been compared to the reporting or recording accomplished at this hearing. BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. December_14,. 1994 BAYLEY REPORTING, INC. (202) 23~-3787 (800) 368-8993 TI1006-2255

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