Tobacco Documents Online

-iio I thin~ that we do want to be ethical, Just as, I h~e, most other people, in various other phases of business want to be ethical--but in the nature of o~r work there are special kinds of problems that we face in tr~ing to be ethical; and also in the nature of our work the consequences of the things that we d~ have, perhaps, especially important results in our society. So..." ROSS: "More than you may intend?" RUDER: "Yes, more than we may intend. So it seems to me that the--we can wo~ry about the consequences of the public relations business on society, assuming that public relations practitioners want to be ethical. And then those consequences can be good or bad whether or not we are ethical. And I thln~ that's the big problem. "I tr~ and be ethical, I really do. We work hard at it in ottr company. We have sen'In~rs on it. We ~rin~ in outside students to wor~ with us. We often don't understand what the ethical conduct truly is, much less what the ri@ht or the w~on~ on a particular problem is." BERNAYS: "Well maybe I can indicate to you how to find out." RUDER: "Well you certainly are welcome to c~me an~ Join us at our seminars; and I'm sure that we could learn a lot from ~ou." ~ERNAYS: "Let me..." TUBBY: "The test, Bill, of this--often in public relations, if you, your consequence is ~ein~ discovered, being foum~ out--we're havin~ several unhappy instances of it recently--where the press or public shows you to have deliberately told an untruth, isn't that the consequence of poor public relations, to be found ~ut." RUDER: "This is a point that Irwin kind of twitted hs for." ROSS: "That's only if you get caught." RUDER: "If you ~et caught." ROSS: "If ~ou get caug~ht, it's terrible." SUSSKIN-D: "We're off on a bit of a tangent in this sense; there's no doubt that you~people here tonight, and a good part, indeed, of the public relations craft, is an ethical group, dedicated to doing a £ood Job and an honest Job. TIFL 0521439 TMDA 2004290

"I~m interested in this phenomenal growth of public relatioms. Isn't it immediately related to the fact that ~ttr existence today is bigness everywhere?" BERNAYS: "No, no, I wouldn't..." SUSSEIND: "S~re it is. You've got bi~ unions, big companies, big &ovsrnment, bi~ charities. Now you've ~ot big public relations RU_r~R: "No..." "That isn't the reason." RUDER: "I think it's the complicatedness that does it. An~ I think the second thin~ is, ar~ somethin~ I'm very worried about: everybody wants to be liked. And if ~ou take the complicated co:~unlcations structure that we have, ~ou reall~ need a specialist to handle that. M~ God, you lo~.k at this television show, and look at all the specialists that ~re involved here. An~ ~ou ta~e television, ~ou take radio, you take all the other mass media, take the specialized ~oups through whom information and c~mmunication flows, this is a specialty. And it takes a technician to handle it in today's society. Plus the fact, that for some reason we are in times when a bi£ company • ~nta to be like~, a union wants to be li~d, a m~all company w~s t~ be liked." ROSS: "It would be rather refreahin~ if somebody says: hate me, dome something." TUBBY: '~es, I wotuld like tomes some bi~ company in its public relations platform decide that they've ~ot... SUSSKIND: "Too much..." TUBBY: "No. If a compan~ has an unpopular point of view, come out and plu~ for it, instead of hindln~. It would be wo~erful." EE~NAYS: "Of course, I think, if I may express this point of view, I think with all due respect to the two gentlemen who have Just talked, they see a rather n~rrow point of public relations. The~ think of it as truth and ~n~ormation. I don't think of it as only truth an~ information." SUSSKIND: "I think of it as persuasion for profit." TIFL 0521440 TMDA 2004291

-13- HERNAYS: "Well, no. I think of it, first of all..." ROSS: "What are you saying':" ~RNAYS: "First of all, as adjustment." SUSSKZND: "Well what does that mean?" HERNAYS: "Well, it means this: that when ~ou are an individual or a corporation or a government amen@ other governments, one of the primary considerations in your own survival is adjustment. To bring about that adjustment t~ay in a complicated world in which every last man man be--or woman--may be a determining factor in your life, either at the counter, or in the legislative hall or in the climate of opinion that is crested, adjustment becomes a basic element in the life of the corporation, or the group, or the organization Just as it does in the llfe of an indivudual. "Now what the public relations counsel does, first of all, ~ to enable the client to bec~me adjusted st the highest level to • public upon whom or upon which he is dependent." TUBBY: "Well doesn't it involve an effort to make the public adjusted to the client?" BERNAYS: "Well it's a two-way, feedback proposition." TUBBY: "Reciprocal." ROSS: "Well ~ren't you sayin~ that you're tr~ing to sell, ~r. Bernays?" ~RNAYS: "No, I'm not." ROSS: "You're tryin~ to sell your client." ~RNAYS: "NO, no." ROSS: ~You sell them by adJustin~ your public to them if you're successful.~ . B~RNAYS: "Well, you're usin~ a terminology. I say... ROSS: "You're using a terminology, and it happens it was ver~ successful ~0 ~ears, derived in part from your uncle, Mr. Freud." TIFL 0521441 T3IDA 2004292

HERNAYS: "No, what I may--no, I'm not talkin~ about terml- n~lo&y, I~m mow tal~i~ a~ut ~e meallt~ of ad~usti~. ~. Suss~Ind has ~o adjusted ~o ~he public a~ to ~e field of tele- vision ~a~ he occupies ~he n~be~ one position In ~e c~ea~ion of pla~s. Ano~he~ ~n who doesn'~ a~J~..." TUBBY: "Listen to this salesman." (LauEhter) SUSSKIHD: "It's hamd for me to..." TUBBY: "Well you can hardly object." ROSS: "We're dealing with words, but I find the idea of..." (Several spo~e simultaneously) BERNAYS: "We're dealln~ with the reality of adjustment." ROSS: "...of adjustment, for instance, let's take Mr. Suss- kind for a minute.. .- SUSSKIND: -"No, no, let's not take me." ROSS: "Alri&ht, ta~e an~bod~ who is..." SUS~%KIND: "Let's take the tobacco industry. industry..." HERNAYS : TUBHY : Inoment. vt Now the tobacco "I would say the tobacco industry isn't adjusted." "I would say the~'ve got a little problem at the ~k~RNAYS: "And they'd better get somebody to advise them to c~rry on research to the point of findi~ a tobacco that will not have the effects that it has." TUBBY: "Well that's exactly what they're doing." BERNAYS: "Well, but that to me would be a public relations problem, Just as our changing the labor policy of a corporatinn f~om a ten hour day to an eight hour day is what I would regard as public relations advice. TMDA 2004293

"Or the matter, for instance--we worked with a Jeweler at one time an~ we recognized that there were. cyclical periods; and we advised the Jeweler ~ho sold only $I00,000 pearl necklaces, to open a five and dolla~ department, so that when the cycle went down, he would maintain a ~arket." ROSS: "You ~now, ~r. Bernays, one of the most brilliant strokes, which impressed me, was--the quality of public relations and how close it is to co,~on sense, for which businessmen are required to spend thousands of dollars was this: a fo~mer employee of yours told me of a case..." ~%NAY S: it." "You don't have to believe them unless you document ROSS: "I can't document it with you, because you would ~ever give me any n~mes or documents. BERNAYS: "Well certainly X won't because it's a fi~uciar~ relationship." ROSS: "You won't tal~ about clients..." EERNAYS: "X advise people..." ROSS: "A flduciar~ relationship..." EER~AYS: "I don't tell their private affairs." TIFL 05;21443 ROSS: "Alrl~ht, may I tell m~ a~ecdote, and I won't mention the name of the client. But this impressed me as public relations. There was a large hat corporation which was making.an effort to sell to the Nero ma~et as well as to the v'ntte market. An~ its hats were not bein~ sold to Neg~ros. And you did a study. And why? You discovered that in Negro publications they had white men wearln~ the hats. So yottr advice was to have Neg~ros weariz~ the hats, which I think is very sensible. But this is a qualit~ of adjustment?" BERNAYS: "But now wait a minute. That was purely a co~m~Ani- cations technique. ~ut if I say to a cllent--well I'll give you an example. We had a client that had ehlppin~ all over the And we found that even thoug~h that client paid as m~ch wages as other people did, and had a labor policy that was aa good, there was always trouble. And we investigated the situation; and we found that the industrial relations man for this corporation tooE-- 5or his advlce--from people who aald that eve~ union that was TMDA 2004294

-16- liberal was Comz~anistic. And he was against Communism, and he simply got rid of his a&g~essions on labor, and did everythin6 he could to affect this union with trouble." TUBBY: "I'd li~e to say, if I..." R~NAYS: "Well I Just wanted to say, we simply advised that they chan~e their industrial relations man. They did; and all of their difficulties evaporated. Now I call that adjustment to the realities of the situation; b~ gettln~ an industrial relations man who was objective and who really c~rried out what the corporation wanted to carry out." ROSS: "Was it a non-Communist un~on?" BmRNAYS: "it was a non-Communlst union." ROSS: "What yea~ was this?" ~RNAYS: "Z'm hog goin~ into it further, because I don't want to identlf~J my client." TUEBY: "Well I think there are two kinds of public relations; and so f~r we have discussed one kind ale:oat exclusively, and that is the kin~ of public relations that is interested in a profit, in obtainin~ a profit for a business, industry, or a company. A~ in that case, I thln~ public relations has a tough an~ necessary Job to do, because of these competitive factors that you mentioned, Bill, of: people are apathetic; they have all kinds of recreation, business, homes, Jobs, children, TV. It's hard to get through to them with your product, with your message. This is a Job of creative public relations, of pushln~ your prouct, ~r~Ang to.break through somehow or other. " "The other ~Ind of public relations, I think, is q~ite dif- ferent--and this is where the public has--not all of it, but much of it, and at least the public's representatives in terms of the press--has a need to ~now, a curiosity to ~now. There they want to ~now how the villa&e ~overnment is run, the town, or the city, or county, or national, or "So ~n-tead of--sure the £overnment at a lower or a hi~her level is putti~ out, tr~in~ to sell the message, convey the stor~; but primarily the impetus is comin~ ~om the other way, or should, TIFL 0521444 T31DA 2004295

-17- in an •left, viable society. That's another kind of public relations; and I think there you don't have this ethical problem quite so much as you do in your field." SUSSEIND: "Wel~l let me ask you this, relative to what you Just said, Mr. Tubby. We're comin~ into a natlon•l presldenti•l election. It has been said that one of the candld•tea, Governor Rockefeller, has a public relations ~irm in his emploz, whose Job it is, you wotuld call it adjustment, Mro Bernays." B~RAY8: things." "Adjustment, information, a~ persuaslon--three SUSSKIND: "Well I call it essentially, persuadin~ the American people that Governor Rockefel~er is the man to be elected ~resident of the United St•tea. I ~m~gine his public relations flrm has said to hi~, amor~ other thin~s, you must differentiate yourself from you~ l~adin~ rival, Mr. N~xon; you must f~ud a difference; you must dramatize yourael~. "I wonder, for example, his recent pronouncement about not suspendin~ nuclear weapons testir~ might not, indeed, be the recommendation of a public relations firm, an~ not related, a~mehow, to his deepest ~olltical conviction?" TUBBY: "Well I would like to speak on that, because I thln~-- you may be rlght--but I feel that from what I ~now of Mr. Roche- feller and his bac~ound in '~aahlngton an~ since, I would guess that he is aeriousl~ and peraonall~ concerned about our defense setup, an~ •bout ou~ need to remain s~ron~ an~ to catch u~ and eventuall~ ~et ahead a~aln of the R~aesians. I know ~l,-uahchev's been quite unhappy about Mr. Rockefeller's pronouncement~ on this score. "You could, perhaps ma~e the same ~ind of • charge, vis-a-vis, Mr. Stevenson, when ~e came out in Los Angeles in the last cam1~ai~n in ~avor of cessation o~ nuclear tests. ~n fact, ~ t~In~ that char&e was made by..." ROSS: "You were with him at the time." TUBBY: "...I t~lnk b~ ~r. Hag~erty and..." ROSS: "An~ we didn't ~st the speech until 4:00 ~'clock in the mornln~, as I recall.~ right." TIFL 0521445 T3IDA 2004296

-18- BERNAYS: "That was Stevenson's fault, Z t~ink." TUBBY: "Well, anyhow the charae was made that he did this deliberately in order to catch, pick up some votes, l don't thin~ he did do it fo~ that reason; an~ perhaps Mr. Rockefeller is belr~ advised alon~ this llne an~ doesn't really believe it, but I tend to think he does believe it." RUDER: "This is the thinA that really worries me about the way things a~e ~olng now, the fact that you can ask a question llke that, and that no one can t~ul~ know the answer. Is what a man's doin~ out of conviction, or is he doln~ aomethin~ because he feels that this is what people want to he~r at the moment? "And I'm sorry to talk about Just words. The connotation of the word 'adJustment'--an~ forgettln~ about your explanation of it for the moment--but the connotation of the w~rd adjustment frightens me, because it seems to me it puts the man who uses public relations in the position of, in a sense, finding out what the current situation is and adJustlr~ himself to it. And it seems to me that the thir~ that we need, and the thing that, for instance, I was hoping to set from Rockefeller, was that he wouldn't act like a politician and would act llke a leader out of convlcti~n." ROSS: "Well, Bill, aren't you asking too much?" RUDER: "But then if he is getting public relations counsel, it probably ia to start actlna--to act like a politician; and I thln~ that's where he i8 makln~ a serious mistake." ROSS: "No, Bill, I think 7ou're perhaps asking a little too much. The genlua of any politician is both to lead and to follow. And one doesn't criticize a politician because of the exigencies of the moment. He may take a position which is not really at the core of hla heart, but is close to it. Every politician trends. The point about politicians, the better politicians, is that they have a center of conviction to which they are true, ultimately." RUDER : "Correct." ~: "That' s right. " RUDER : "Correct." ROSS: "I would say..." TIFL 0521446 x31DA 2004297

-19- TUBBY: "And one would think that stomlc energy" wee vez~j close to ~hat center." ROSS: talk?" "Well, do we have another moment? Can I finish this SUSSKIND: '~es." ROSS: "Rodger made an Interestim~ point about governmental public relations, ~hich I think is quite t~ue. It has a very useftul informational function. I don't think any critic of public relations would £ainaay that. But I wish we had ~lm K~g~erty here as well as Ro4ger Tubby. But if we could have Rodger substitute for Ka~erty, as~ him whether he doesn't think that under the present adminlst~ation, the public relations man for the President has not been overl~ manipulative, has n~t managed the news, in James Reston's phrase, to an extent which is perhaps not in the center of the public's interest?" TU~: "Well I hs~e felt that um4er this administration that we have--techniques have ~een used, ~x~llc relations techniques have been uaed--whlch have been unfortunate--the bigger baz~ for the buck; libera~In~ the satellites; freeln~ Chla~4~ Eal-shek; massive retaliatlon--these seem te ~e more in the Madison Avenue pattern; they seem to be a little too clever and a little toe t~ite, and not basically honest, and ~_be admlnistratlen suffered. I thin~ that when ~ehn Foster D~lles said one thi~ to ~asser on the Aswan dam, and then cut off the aid,. on that dam, that was unfortunate. "I don't mean to be wholly p~rtlsan on this. I feel~that when the League of Nations battle was on that public relations techniques were not successful, and that that failed. I think e~t Mr. Roose- velt, in his effort to pack the Supreme Cottrt made a mistake--in his effort to pu~6e Millamd Tydin~s. So there are guilt~ ~amtles on both sides. "But I do feel~ in government public relations, that w~ere you say somethin~ that yo~ cannot bac~ up by the facts, you are fairl~ soon discovered, and it humts." ROSS: "Oh, mare, but let me give you a very precise ~natance, well documented. Do you remember in the summer of 1955 ~amold Talbot was under g~reat att&c~, arm you remember why. And there TIFL 0521447 TMDA 2004298

-20- was a su~gestion--there was a theory he might be •bout to resign; and Hag~erty sent out a notice that there was going to be a major announcement from the White House; so more than a hundred corres- pondents flocked to the ~ite House, expectin~ to he~r the announce- ment of Talbot's real&nation. ~at happened? "There was a ~roup of scientists, and Haggerty made an announcement an~ they backed him up and spoke to the press, that because in the ~eophysical year of 1957 the United States was goin6 to put around the earth the first earth-circlin8 satellite--an irony, of cottrse, which wasn't appreciated for two years--this blanketed the front pa£es. And when Talbot's resignation was finall~ announced, the administration was still in a benign glow. "Well, this is governmental public relations too. It was not dishonest. We were plannin~ to do this. It was managerlal--it was manipulative." RUDER: "But o~viously ROSS: "Oh yes, but the truth didn't catch up until the Russians ~ot ahead of us; and you can't blame Jim Hag~erty for that." RUDEr: "We~l I do blame ~ImHag~erty though, and the admin- Ist~atlon, in a sense, particularly when the Russians put up their fLrst Sputnik, for mockin8 it as a balloon and so." TUBBY: "Well, that' s another point." BERNAY$: "Isn't this questlon--doesn't this question, in a sense, resolve itse~ in this way: that when an individual gets lecal advice, an~ it is poor legal advice, it is he who is to blame Cot takin~ a lawyer who hasn't ~ot goo~ Judgment. I would say that in the cases that you have Just referred to, you cannot blame public relations on • blanket basis, you blame the individual who is basically responsible for accepting or re~ecting advice, or for choosin~ the wr~n~ men to give it to you. ROSS: "Wouldn't ~ou say that Jim Ha~gert-y, on the whole, has been a ~ood public relations man for Eisenhower?" ~RNAYS: "I would say, appraisin~ Jim Ha~gerty from everything I ~now, that he has very often develope~ activities a~ actions which are not consistent with the thin~ng, the ideology or the TIFL 0521448 TMDA 2004299