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Radio Reports, 16 \VE~T 46Ih STREET NE\V YORK 36, N, Y. COL~.~SWS 5-7630 Texts of B,o,adcasls HILL AND KNOWLTON, INC. December 13, 1959 FULL TEXT Open End at i0:00 P.M. ~ver WNTA-TV (Newark, N.J.): THE SCREEN SHOWED THE PARTICIPANTS SEATED IN THE STUDIO. ANNOUNCER: "Good evenir~, and welcome to Open End, the award w!nnin~ discussion program, brou~t to you b~ Sutro Brothers and Company, members of the New York Stock Exchange." (Theme music) DAVID SUSSKIND: "Good evenln~, and welcome to Open End° My name is David Suss~ind. Tonight oum subject is, 'The Power of Public Relations.' We intend to examine this great new phenomenon on the American scene which galvanizes, enerAizes, cajoles an~ persuades the American people into all manner of opinions and atti- tudes. We want to examine the who, why, what, when of public relations. "A recent news ma£azine said this about public relations: ~Ubiquitous and often invisible, mali£ned and self-doubti~, the public relations man has woven himself into the nation's economic, political and social fabric. He may be a cynical space-~rabber, out to publicize some movie starlet, a plotting plugger of some company's products, or a ~ouble-domed thinker adviain~ a top level client on community or stockholder relations. Whatever his temperament or his talents, private companies, associations, churches, unions, political parties and celebrities pay these people two billion dollars a year for their services.' The~ did last ~ear, and they'll pay even more this year. TIFL 0521429 CONFIDENTIAL TMDA 2004280 Los Angeles " New Eno[~ncl • ,\'eu' York " Phdadelph~a " San Francisco

-2- "Ou~ ~uests a~e top practitioners o~ public relations. Two of them are public relations experts. One was formerl~ a public relations or press relations advisor to the President of the United States. And our fourth £ueet has written a book about public relations. And I~d like ~ou to meet them now. "Ou~ f~ret ~ueat, ~r. Edwar~ L. Berne, s, is one of the founders of modern public relations, and the man who created the designation, 'public relations counsel.' He is a newphew of Si~mund Freud; Mrs Berne, s began his c~.~er as a ~iter for Woodrow ~ilaon's Creel Co~ittee on public information ~i~ '.'orld War I. Since ~at t~e, ~. ~rnays ~a done public ~lati~ns for a~ost eve~ business and product in existence. ~. ~r~ys is also ~e au~or of n~erous books and articles on ~e subject. "Our next Luest, Mr. I~wln Ross, is on the staff of the New York Post; an~ he is the author of the recently-publlshed book, 'The Lma~e Merchants,' a survey and study of the public relations business. A ~rsduate of Harvard, Mr. Ross is also the author of 'Strategy for Liberals,~ an~ is a frequ,nt contributor to The Reader's Digest, H~rper°s and other national ma&azlnes. "Our next ~uest, Mr. Rod~er Tubby, ia presently co-publisher ~nd editor of the Adirondac~ Daily Enterprise, an~ a member of the faculty of Paul Smith Colle~e, where~he teaches public relations. A ~raduate of the London School of Econ~mlcs, Mr. Tubby was formerly press secretary to President Harry Truman, an~ press officer ~f the State Department from 19~5 to 1949. Mr. Tubby was also personal assistant to Adlai Stevenson du~in~ the 1952 Presidential campaign. "Our last £uest, Mr. ~'illiam Rudeb, is chairman of the b~ard of Ruder and Finn. Twelve ~ears a~o it was a two-man operation; to.day it is the third lar£est public relations firm in the country, with affiliates in more than 40 countries, includln~ Rusala. Prior to or~anizir~ his own comp~n~, Mr. Ruder was director of exploitation for Samuel ~oldwyn Productions. "We'll Join our ~ests in Just a moment, after this message. " SUS~RKIND: *'~entlemen, thank ~ou for bein~ with us tonight on Open End, because this discussion of public relations is one we've ~et to enter upon; and I thin~ it's reall~ important in American TIFL 0521430 TMDA 2004281

cultur~ today. I want to start, F~. Ross, b~ asking you this, because you've Just completed a surve~ which restulted in a book called, 'The Zma£e Merchants.' You've studied public relations in America. What is your basic estimate of public relations, what it is and what it's worth." ROSS: "Well, I've frequentl~ been asked whether it's a good thin& or a bad think. I would suggest it's an ineviSable thing, as a consequence of the complexit~ ~f communication in ou~ society. I thln~ it's &cod and bad. It's perhaps more provocative at the outset of a discussion to indicate one's disagreements rathen than one's feeling, s of approbation. ~ would sa~ the pretentiousness of public relations practitioners has annoyed me for a long time. The~ tal~ of this as a profession° It's not a profession, an~ more than mane is, the newspaper business. It's a business. It's a craft. It's a useful service. "The~ tal~ of public service activities of the clients. This is frequentl~ cant. Every operative in the market place of public opinion thin~s of the public service value of what they're saying. These are private ~eaders. I'm all for private pleaders. Public service is somethin~ else. And at times the public service activi- ties, or results of the public relations activities coincide really with the public service. ~ut this is coincident~l rather than con- sequential to the activitlea. "I would sa~ that without public relations, on the other hand, we would be bac~ in the position of 50 or 60 ~ears ago, where a reporter had vainl~ to knock on the ~ates of a corporation to get admitted, and to ~et a little bit of a, piece of news; and that would be bad. "The ~n~ormational activities in short--Z've spoken too l~ng already--of public ~elations, Z would think, are hlg~hly ~seful. The pretentions, the rhet~ic, the nonesense, as a newspaper reporter, ~ do deplore." ~RNAYS: "Z'd li~e to tal~ to that, if I might. Z feel that in an~ discussion of this ~ind, the first thing one should d~ is to define one's term. Let us, as a start, define what ~,Ablic relations is. To me, public relations is that field of activity which deals with the relations of an institution, a man, an organi- zation with the publics upon which that individual or organization is dependent. TIFL 0521431 TMDA 2004282

"As F~r. Ross has said, llfe has become so complex that today a societal technician is needed to advise a client or an individual, cr &Toup, on how to deal with the public. What It means is that the i~,divldual who does the advisln~ must apply whatever ~'nowledEe there is in the social sciences about adjustment, a~ut In~ormatlon as a basis for understandln~, ar~ about ~ersuasion, which is one of the basic elements of a competitive society. "If we accept that, then we can go one step further, an~ say that Just as any other vocation, it can be abused, Just aa medicine can be abused, or law can be abused. BUt it is a profession." ROSS: "WhN is it a profession, Mr. Bernaya?" BERNAYS: "Well, let me Just tell you why." ROSS: "I~m waiti~ for this." ~P~NAYS: "A profession, by definition, is a vocation in ~hich an ~rt is applied to a science, and in which peccary motivation is not the basic consideration." ROSS: "But isn't pecuniary motivation the basic consideration in public relatigns?" B~NAYS: SNot--no more--with a £oo~ public reAations man, it is ne more the consideration than it is with a ~ood doctor, or a good law~er, or a ~ood architect, or a ~ood engineer. Now there ~re men who abuse the profession..." ROSS: "B~ bein~ Interested in money?" EERNAYS: "No, not only by bein~ interested in money, but by actin~ in a way that is based on their self-lnterest, an~ that alone, and not on the public interest. BUt if ~ou, by definition, ta~e the definition of 'profession,' public relations is a profession as practiced by some of the practitioners Just as medicine is a profession or law is a profession. Ar~ yet I know of shyster law~ers, an~ I ~now that there are abortionists a.mo~ medical men; but when I discuss medicine, ~ do not discuss the deviates, but ~ discuss the broad pattern which is the ideal of the ~rofeaslon." T31DA 2004283

-5- RUDER: "You see, well, I don't consider myself either a shyster public relations counsel, or an abortionist public relations counsel; but I don't consider m~self a member of a profession. I look at the work I do as a craft and a skill. I hope to make money at it. I don't disrelate what I do to making mone~. I want to run a successful business. And I do look at it as a business. And, as a matter of fact, I thin~ I have an obli- gation to myself, m~ famil~, and all the pe3ple who wor~ with us to operate a successful business. And there's so much tal~ in the public relationa--I almost said profession..." ~ERNAYS: "You can say it." RUDER : ".. . about..." E~RNAYS: "With impunity, I hope." RUDER: "...about are we a profession, or aren't we a profes- si:.n; and to me it's Kind of like how manj angels dance on the head of a pin. Even if I were to ~now, I~m n~t quite sure that it's material. And comir~ back to Irwln's point, of the pretentiousness Of Ottro.. ~ERNAYS: "WeLl ~ ~ ~m~ doctors are pretentious, as a profession, or-law~ers?" RUDER : "Oh no." ~RNAYS: "It isn't a~ter of pretentiousness; it i8 a matter of dlfferentiatin~ between functlonln~ within the law an~ on the profit motive alone, an~ functlonin~ as other pro~essio~ do. N~ if ~ou studied ~ histo~ of professions, ~ou would ~ow ~at ~ professions ~ve on17 developed recentl~. ~e legal profession is, possibl~, ~e oldest. ~e ~dlcal profession has o~7 d~elo~d reall~ in ~la cent~7, in which certain standards of c~duct ~ve been e~o~ced in the case of medic~e, by ~e state." SUSSEI'R~: "Mr. Berne,s, why a~e you so self-consclous about the description of your business? Why need it be a ~rofession? Would you ~ equall~ happ~ to have it described as an occupation, Or... ROSS: "It's because Mr. Bernays is not interested in money. You see, on the basis of a lack of pecuniary recompense, Journalism is a profession, because we're paid less than anybod~ else. TIFL 0521433 T3IDA 2004284

-6- TUBBY: "Well, I~wln, I think mapbe you're being a little bit too tart with NL~. BernaTs. I thin~ a point that hs made earlier., o" ~ERNAYS: "Sweet-ta~t, call it." TUBBY: "Alri~ht, sweet-tart--is £ermane to ~his, ~ho.t I think a &ood public relations man--sure he wants to be paid--but I think above all-oI~ll get into t~he question of semantics, what is s good public relations man?--but a... EERNAYS: "A sociall7 sound public relations man." TUBBY: "...a good public relations man wants to do his Job as well as he ~nows how, whatever he £ets paid." ROSS: "Granted, granted." TUBBY: "Whethe~ i~'s ~,000 ~ ~e~ o~ $50,000 a 7e~." ROSS : "qui~e." T~: "And I think t~t a ~ood public ~elations ~ ~ill ver~ caref~ no~ to sell a p~oduct t~t is false, o~ that he to be false o~ phoneT, o~ an idea,.." R0~S: "Well ~at's not quite ~e po~t, Rod~er, altho~ ~t's ve~ relevant." T~: ~es." ROSS: "~ point Is, ~t is ~ value of usi~ the te~ 'profession?' Now normally, to ~ a mem~r of a profession meant ~at you ~de~ent a rigorous co~ae of traini~--~ had ~to pass exami~tlons, ~ou ~d to set cert~ication by some agency of ~e state; and ~en ~ou ~d to a~e~ to a ra~r ~rrowl~-~ef~ed code of e~ics, al~o~ Lord ~ows, ~n~ people ~i~'t adhere to them; ~t if they were cut off, t~y could be cut out. "N~ I'm not s~est~ t~t public relatlo~ ~n ~e not ethical. Ma~ of--most of them, I'd certai~ concede, ~e e~ical. I'm Just talki~ to the point of--and I think it;s a a~ll point, and per~ps we shoed Eet ~yond it--as to w~ we have to call a profession. ~t's all. R~: "Well I a£rn,, Z don't..." TIFL 0521434 TMDA 2004285

-7- EERNAYS: "Well I thln~, I thln~.o." RUIneR: "I think it is a small point. me anln~fulne e s." I don' t understand its HERNAYS: "I think it's a very Lm~ortant point, because if we don:t start in with the assumption that it is a profession, ~ that Indlviduals--some individuals--practice it as a profession, then we @st into a situation where anyth~n6 that is within the law I, ROSS: "I don't see that at all. Can't ~ou be ethical and still be a member of a craft or s business? Can't buslneasmen be ethical?" SUSSKIND: "Coul~n't we for purposes of ~r. Berna~e's security and comfort for tonight assume that public relations Is a profession?" EERNAYS: scientists." "It has been called a profession by the social SUSSKII~D: "And .could we ~o on to this deeper issue which is in m~ mind, this: I have the feelin~ that the American populace is ~ind of an amorphous Jell~, to be moulded by this new profession into specific attitudes, shapes, opinions. Mr. Bernays has called It-- public relations-- ' the en~ineerin~ of consent,' a ioft~ phrase that would do credit to ~Arvard's Graduate School. But doesn't it reall~ come down to the fact that 7ou fellows are in the business of our opinions." ROSS: "Include me out. I'm not in this; I'm a newspaperman." (Several spo~e slmultane~usly) SUSSKI~D: "Now let me give F~u a specific, if I maT. I'm much disturbed about this, for example. When the cancer question broke full force on the tobacco indust~, the public relations counsel, New York's Hill and Knowlton Company, representing the top tobacco companies, su~es~ed orsanlzln~ a tobacco In~uatr~ research committee ~f independent scientists to demonstrate that tobacco men too were interested in the health problem. Result: the c~mmittee has since acted as the most effective advocate ~or the case that there is no conclusive proof of a cancer-cigarette ¢onnectlon. "Now, in other words, despite our Surgeon-General, and despite the reports of England's public health offices, and so forth, a 2004286

-8- ~roup of public relations men Eot to the tobacco companies, and said what you chaps should do is organize a counter-m~vement. As a consequence, the American public is considerably befuddled on what I think is a terribly fundamental issue: the cause and effect relationship of smokln~ and lung cancer. TUBEY: "Well, Dave, may I say a point on that, that you had, in the question of fluoridation of water, you had some doctors or&snized against fluoridation. You've had lawyers, of course, takin~ opposite views on ether controversial Issues. "I think that--you suggested we talk tonight about the p~wer of public relatlone-~and I think there's no question but what the point you ma~e there is valid, that public relations can be used in an unfort-n~-te way from the etandpolnt of maw people in ottr c oun~ry." SUSSKIND: "Would you reEard that as an unfortunate instance of public relations?" TUBBY: "I would." ROSS: "Irou wouldn' t? I would." TUBBY: "I w~ould too. We've seen it used most effectively where you've had no chance to challen~e it. In Russia, in Nazi Germany, where the public is exposed only to one point of view. Here we can often challen~e thin~s of this kind. We're getting a challenge on the dru~ industry; McCarthy was challenged; maw of the thi~s that have been said by ~overnment have been challenged and tested. So that we have a certain cont'rol outside the industry itself. "But I still think that most responsible public relations people--whatever you call them, whether the~'re in a trad~ or a profession--do seek to tell the truth. "Ivy Lee, whom you Wn~w, in 1904 when he was working for the anthracite Industry, said, we aim to be accttrate, we aim to get the information out as it happens. And I think this is basically,what a good public relations man does, or should try to do anyway. SUS~KIND: "But the ~ood public relations man is often hard to see in the woods of bad public relations men. Now you brought up McCarth~ for a moment. D~rln~ the crest of the McCarthy TIFL 0521436 T3IDA 2004287

-9- witchhuntin~, somebody, a public relations advisor, must have advised the administration, as a consequence of holdln~ his finger u~ to the public wind, that this was not the time to chalien~ie McCarthy, this was the time to appease him, compromise with him, lay low, or somethln~. "Now recentl~ a ~overnor of New York made t~e mlsta~e of say- in& publicly that his polls--he would be ~overned in whether or not to p~rsue th, presidency by what the polls told him. ~he polls are another public relations counsel. Now isn't Sb~t a pernicious influence ?" BERNAYS: "Wall now that to me, sir, would ~e the abuse of public relations rather than the use of it. In any vocation or field of activity today you can get social uses or you can get social abuses. "One of the reasons wh~ I am so keen about ma~ing a profession of public relations is to insure through state sanctions, licensing, re&ist~ations, examinations, an~ the li~e. ~he fact that at least the men who call themselves counsels on public relations will have certain standards of conduct that they may break, but that at least are validated by the state, Just as happens with a lawyer and with a doctor. "M~" feelin~ is that wha~ you were tal~in~ about is not ~ood public Pelations; ~ou're tal~Ing about the abuse of public relations. Demagogues have abused the public. Leaders that were anti-social have abused the public, from Hitler down to the Syrlan--the Assyrian dema~oEues. , "I thin~ that in a subject li~e this, one woul~ have to decide whether one is discussing the subject in terms of the practitioners who have a social ethic or consciousness, an~ the practitioners who abuse it. I would sa~ that since it is a tool that anyboc~ can use, without an~ sanction, it is subject to a ~reat deal of abuse, Just as in the point that you have made." SUSS~IND: "Could I Just call a momentar~ pause while we have a message fr~n ou~ sponsor." TIFL 0fi2143 TMDA 2004288

-i0- SUSSKIND: "Is the 8j-~wth of public relations in cure country ~edlately related, as I suspect it is, to the growth of bi£ness everywhere in our country?" ROSS: "Could I sa~ a word, because I was aware the commercial was comin6 on, and I couldn't answer Mr. Bernaya..." ~EKNAYS: "Are we on?" SUSSKIND: "Yes, we're on." ~%NAYS: "Oh." ROSS: "...M~. Bernays' very eloquent peroration. I think the problem, basicall~, is this, m~ friend. There is no easily veri- fiable truth to which public relations men, ~r lesser mortals like Journalists can devote themselves. There ~re many truths, there are many contenders in the arena of public opinion. This is quite different, to have a fractional view of the truth than to be engaged in a conscious distortion of the truth, which unscrupulous an~ unethical practitloners--none of whom are represented here tonig~ht-- do on occasion indulge in. I think this is a basic fallacy; you can't re£ister public relations men who are ethical, an~ who will then tell the truth, an~ the unethical ones may not tell the truth. "Basicall~, this is a society in which there are continual conflicts. Take the steel strike. Who was tellln6 the truth, the public relations operatives for the United Steel Workers, or Hill and Enowlton which represents the steel industry? N~w I think Hill and Enowlton is an ethical flrm--~I happen to disagree with their view of the steel controversy. They're putting out different-- varying, not var~In~, c~mpletel~ antithetical polnts--In theLr propaganda daily. "I think you do a disservice to the whole field of public relations by suggesting that ethics is consonant with truth, as if truth was readily discoverable in Mr. Bernays's office on 6~th Street. Now, havln~ said that, then you can devote yourself to the really unethical practices. This is nothing to do with professionalism. " BERNAYS: "Can I--can I tal~..." RU~ER: "The difficulty that I find here is that in accepting both of your points, that it's awfully difficult to~et an absolute in terms of truth, but at the same time we want to be ethlcal--and TIFL 0521438 T IDA 2004289

-iio I thin~ that we do want to be ethical, Just as, I h~e, most other people, in various other phases of business want to be ethical--but in the nature of o~r work there are special kinds of problems that we face in tr~ing to be ethical; and also in the nature of our work the consequences of the things that we d~ have, perhaps, especially important results in our society. So..." ROSS: "More than you may intend?" RUDER: "Yes, more than we may intend. So it seems to me that the--we can wo~ry about the consequences of the public relations business on society, assuming that public relations practitioners want to be ethical. And then those consequences can be good or bad whether or not we are ethical. And I thln~ that's the big problem. "I tr~ and be ethical, I really do. We work hard at it in ottr company. We have sen'In~rs on it. We ~rin~ in outside students to wor~ with us. We often don't understand what the ethical conduct truly is, much less what the ri@ht or the w~on~ on a particular problem is." BERNAYS: "Well maybe I can indicate to you how to find out." RUDER: "Well you certainly are welcome to c~me an~ Join us at our seminars; and I'm sure that we could learn a lot from ~ou." ~ERNAYS: "Let me..." TUBBY: "The test, Bill, of this--often in public relations, if you, your consequence is ~ein~ discovered, being foum~ out--we're havin~ several unhappy instances of it recently--where the press or public shows you to have deliberately told an untruth, isn't that the consequence of poor public relations, to be found ~ut." RUDER: "This is a point that Irwin kind of twitted hs for." ROSS: "That's only if you get caught." RUDER: "If you ~et caught." ROSS: "If ~ou get caug~ht, it's terrible." SUSSKIN-D: "We're off on a bit of a tangent in this sense; there's no doubt that you~people here tonight, and a good part, indeed, of the public relations craft, is an ethical group, dedicated to doing a £ood Job and an honest Job. TIFL 0521439 TMDA 2004290

"I~m interested in this phenomenal growth of public relatioms. Isn't it immediately related to the fact that ~ttr existence today is bigness everywhere?" BERNAYS: "No, no, I wouldn't..." SUSSEIND: "S~re it is. You've got bi~ unions, big companies, big &ovsrnment, bi~ charities. Now you've ~ot big public relations RU_r~R: "No..." "That isn't the reason." RUDER: "I think it's the complicatedness that does it. An~ I think the second thin~ is, ar~ somethin~ I'm very worried about: everybody wants to be liked. And if ~ou take the complicated co:~unlcations structure that we have, ~ou reall~ need a specialist to handle that. M~ God, you lo~.k at this television show, and look at all the specialists that ~re involved here. An~ ~ou ta~e television, ~ou take radio, you take all the other mass media, take the specialized ~oups through whom information and c~mmunication flows, this is a specialty. And it takes a technician to handle it in today's society. Plus the fact, that for some reason we are in times when a bi£ company • ~nta to be like~, a union wants to be li~d, a m~all company w~s t~ be liked." ROSS: "It would be rather refreahin~ if somebody says: hate me, dome something." TUBBY: '~es, I wotuld like tomes some bi~ company in its public relations platform decide that they've ~ot... SUSSKIND: "Too much..." TUBBY: "No. If a compan~ has an unpopular point of view, come out and plu~ for it, instead of hindln~. It would be wo~erful." EE~NAYS: "Of course, I think, if I may express this point of view, I think with all due respect to the two gentlemen who have Just talked, they see a rather n~rrow point of public relations. The~ think of it as truth and ~n~ormation. I don't think of it as only truth an~ information." SUSSKIND: "I think of it as persuasion for profit." TIFL 0521440 TMDA 2004291

-13- HERNAYS: "Well, no. I think of it, first of all..." ROSS: "What are you saying':" ~RNAYS: "First of all, as adjustment." SUSSKZND: "Well what does that mean?" HERNAYS: "Well, it means this: that when ~ou are an individual or a corporation or a government amen@ other governments, one of the primary considerations in your own survival is adjustment. To bring about that adjustment t~ay in a complicated world in which every last man man be--or woman--may be a determining factor in your life, either at the counter, or in the legislative hall or in the climate of opinion that is crested, adjustment becomes a basic element in the life of the corporation, or the group, or the organization Just as it does in the llfe of an indivudual. "Now what the public relations counsel does, first of all, ~ to enable the client to bec~me adjusted st the highest level to • public upon whom or upon which he is dependent." TUBBY: "Well doesn't it involve an effort to make the public adjusted to the client?" BERNAYS: "Well it's a two-way, feedback proposition." TUBBY: "Reciprocal." ROSS: "Well ~ren't you sayin~ that you're tr~ing to sell, ~r. Bernays?" ~RNAYS: "No, I'm not." ROSS: "You're tryin~ to sell your client." ~RNAYS: "NO, no." ROSS: ~You sell them by adJustin~ your public to them if you're successful.~ . B~RNAYS: "Well, you're usin~ a terminology. I say... ROSS: "You're using a terminology, and it happens it was ver~ successful ~0 ~ears, derived in part from your uncle, Mr. Freud." TIFL 0521441 T3IDA 2004292

HERNAYS: "No, what I may--no, I'm not talkin~ about terml- n~lo&y, I~m mow tal~i~ a~ut ~e meallt~ of ad~usti~. ~. Suss~Ind has ~o adjusted ~o ~he public a~ to ~e field of tele- vision ~a~ he occupies ~he n~be~ one position In ~e c~ea~ion of pla~s. Ano~he~ ~n who doesn'~ a~J~..." TUBBY: "Listen to this salesman." (LauEhter) SUSSKIHD: "It's hamd for me to..." TUBBY: "Well you can hardly object." ROSS: "We're dealing with words, but I find the idea of..." (Several spo~e simultaneously) BERNAYS: "We're dealln~ with the reality of adjustment." ROSS: "...of adjustment, for instance, let's take Mr. Suss- kind for a minute.. .- SUSSKIND: -"No, no, let's not take me." ROSS: "Alri&ht, ta~e an~bod~ who is..." SUS~%KIND: "Let's take the tobacco industry. industry..." HERNAYS : TUBHY : Inoment. vt Now the tobacco "I would say the tobacco industry isn't adjusted." "I would say the~'ve got a little problem at the ~k~RNAYS: "And they'd better get somebody to advise them to c~rry on research to the point of findi~ a tobacco that will not have the effects that it has." TUBBY: "Well that's exactly what they're doing." BERNAYS: "Well, but that to me would be a public relations problem, Just as our changing the labor policy of a corporatinn f~om a ten hour day to an eight hour day is what I would regard as public relations advice. TMDA 2004293

"Or the matter, for instance--we worked with a Jeweler at one time an~ we recognized that there were. cyclical periods; and we advised the Jeweler ~ho sold only $I00,000 pearl necklaces, to open a five and dolla~ department, so that when the cycle went down, he would maintain a ~arket." ROSS: "You ~now, ~r. Bernays, one of the most brilliant strokes, which impressed me, was--the quality of public relations and how close it is to co,~on sense, for which businessmen are required to spend thousands of dollars was this: a fo~mer employee of yours told me of a case..." ~%NAY S: it." "You don't have to believe them unless you document ROSS: "I can't document it with you, because you would ~ever give me any n~mes or documents. BERNAYS: "Well certainly X won't because it's a fi~uciar~ relationship." ROSS: "You won't tal~ about clients..." EERNAYS: "X advise people..." ROSS: "A flduciar~ relationship..." EER~AYS: "I don't tell their private affairs." TIFL 05;21443 ROSS: "Alrl~ht, may I tell m~ a~ecdote, and I won't mention the name of the client. But this impressed me as public relations. There was a large hat corporation which was making.an effort to sell to the Nero ma~et as well as to the v'ntte market. An~ its hats were not bein~ sold to Neg~ros. And you did a study. And why? You discovered that in Negro publications they had white men wearln~ the hats. So yottr advice was to have Neg~ros weariz~ the hats, which I think is very sensible. But this is a qualit~ of adjustment?" BERNAYS: "But now wait a minute. That was purely a co~m~Ani- cations technique. ~ut if I say to a cllent--well I'll give you an example. We had a client that had ehlppin~ all over the And we found that even thoug~h that client paid as m~ch wages as other people did, and had a labor policy that was aa good, there was always trouble. And we investigated the situation; and we found that the industrial relations man for this corporation tooE-- 5or his advlce--from people who aald that eve~ union that was TMDA 2004294

-16- liberal was Comz~anistic. And he was against Communism, and he simply got rid of his a&g~essions on labor, and did everythin6 he could to affect this union with trouble." TUBBY: "I'd li~e to say, if I..." R~NAYS: "Well I Just wanted to say, we simply advised that they chan~e their industrial relations man. They did; and all of their difficulties evaporated. Now I call that adjustment to the realities of the situation; b~ gettln~ an industrial relations man who was objective and who really c~rried out what the corporation wanted to carry out." ROSS: "Was it a non-Communist un~on?" BmRNAYS: "it was a non-Communlst union." ROSS: "What yea~ was this?" ~RNAYS: "Z'm hog goin~ into it further, because I don't want to identlf~J my client." TUEBY: "Well I think there are two kinds of public relations; and so f~r we have discussed one kind ale:oat exclusively, and that is the kin~ of public relations that is interested in a profit, in obtainin~ a profit for a business, industry, or a company. A~ in that case, I thln~ public relations has a tough an~ necessary Job to do, because of these competitive factors that you mentioned, Bill, of: people are apathetic; they have all kinds of recreation, business, homes, Jobs, children, TV. It's hard to get through to them with your product, with your message. This is a Job of creative public relations, of pushln~ your prouct, ~r~Ang to.break through somehow or other. " "The other ~Ind of public relations, I think, is q~ite dif- ferent--and this is where the public has--not all of it, but much of it, and at least the public's representatives in terms of the press--has a need to ~now, a curiosity to ~now. There they want to ~now how the villa&e ~overnment is run, the town, or the city, or county, or national, or "So ~n-tead of--sure the £overnment at a lower or a hi~her level is putti~ out, tr~in~ to sell the message, convey the stor~; but primarily the impetus is comin~ ~om the other way, or should, TIFL 0521444 T31DA 2004295

-17- in an •left, viable society. That's another kind of public relations; and I think there you don't have this ethical problem quite so much as you do in your field." SUSSEIND: "Wel~l let me ask you this, relative to what you Just said, Mr. Tubby. We're comin~ into a natlon•l presldenti•l election. It has been said that one of the candld•tea, Governor Rockefeller, has a public relations ~irm in his emploz, whose Job it is, you wotuld call it adjustment, Mro Bernays." B~RAY8: things." "Adjustment, information, a~ persuaslon--three SUSSKIND: "Well I call it essentially, persuadin~ the American people that Governor Rockefel~er is the man to be elected ~resident of the United St•tea. I ~m~gine his public relations flrm has said to hi~, amor~ other thin~s, you must differentiate yourself from you~ l~adin~ rival, Mr. N~xon; you must f~ud a difference; you must dramatize yourael~. "I wonder, for example, his recent pronouncement about not suspendin~ nuclear weapons testir~ might not, indeed, be the recommendation of a public relations firm, an~ not related, a~mehow, to his deepest ~olltical conviction?" TUBBY: "Well I would like to speak on that, because I thln~-- you may be rlght--but I feel that from what I ~now of Mr. Roche- feller and his bac~ound in '~aahlngton an~ since, I would guess that he is aeriousl~ and peraonall~ concerned about our defense setup, an~ •bout ou~ need to remain s~ron~ an~ to catch u~ and eventuall~ ~et ahead a~aln of the R~aesians. I know ~l,-uahchev's been quite unhappy about Mr. Rockefeller's pronouncement~ on this score. "You could, perhaps ma~e the same ~ind of • charge, vis-a-vis, Mr. Stevenson, when ~e came out in Los Angeles in the last cam1~ai~n in ~avor of cessation o~ nuclear tests. ~n fact, ~ t~In~ that char&e was made by..." ROSS: "You were with him at the time." TUBBY: "...I t~lnk b~ ~r. Hag~erty and..." ROSS: "An~ we didn't ~st the speech until 4:00 ~'clock in the mornln~, as I recall.~ right." TIFL 0521445 T3IDA 2004296

-18- BERNAYS: "That was Stevenson's fault, Z t~ink." TUBBY: "Well, anyhow the charae was made that he did this deliberately in order to catch, pick up some votes, l don't thin~ he did do it fo~ that reason; an~ perhaps Mr. Rockefeller is belr~ advised alon~ this llne an~ doesn't really believe it, but I tend to think he does believe it." RUDER: "This is the thinA that really worries me about the way things a~e ~olng now, the fact that you can ask a question llke that, and that no one can t~ul~ know the answer. Is what a man's doin~ out of conviction, or is he doln~ aomethin~ because he feels that this is what people want to he~r at the moment? "And I'm sorry to talk about Just words. The connotation of the word 'adJustment'--an~ forgettln~ about your explanation of it for the moment--but the connotation of the w~rd adjustment frightens me, because it seems to me it puts the man who uses public relations in the position of, in a sense, finding out what the current situation is and adJustlr~ himself to it. And it seems to me that the thir~ that we need, and the thing that, for instance, I was hoping to set from Rockefeller, was that he wouldn't act like a politician and would act llke a leader out of convlcti~n." ROSS: "Well, Bill, aren't you asking too much?" RUDER: "But then if he is getting public relations counsel, it probably ia to start actlna--to act like a politician; and I thln~ that's where he i8 makln~ a serious mistake." ROSS: "No, Bill, I think 7ou're perhaps asking a little too much. The genlua of any politician is both to lead and to follow. And one doesn't criticize a politician because of the exigencies of the moment. He may take a position which is not really at the core of hla heart, but is close to it. Every politician trends. The point about politicians, the better politicians, is that they have a center of conviction to which they are true, ultimately." RUDER : "Correct." ~: "That' s right. " RUDER : "Correct." ROSS: "I would say..." TIFL 0521446 x31DA 2004297

-19- TUBBY: "And one would think that stomlc energy" wee vez~j close to ~hat center." ROSS: talk?" "Well, do we have another moment? Can I finish this SUSSKIND: '~es." ROSS: "Rodger made an Interestim~ point about governmental public relations, ~hich I think is quite t~ue. It has a very useftul informational function. I don't think any critic of public relations would £ainaay that. But I wish we had ~lm K~g~erty here as well as Ro4ger Tubby. But if we could have Rodger substitute for Ka~erty, as~ him whether he doesn't think that under the present adminlst~ation, the public relations man for the President has not been overl~ manipulative, has n~t managed the news, in James Reston's phrase, to an extent which is perhaps not in the center of the public's interest?" TU~: "Well I hs~e felt that um4er this administration that we have--techniques have ~een used, ~x~llc relations techniques have been uaed--whlch have been unfortunate--the bigger baz~ for the buck; libera~In~ the satellites; freeln~ Chla~4~ Eal-shek; massive retaliatlon--these seem te ~e more in the Madison Avenue pattern; they seem to be a little too clever and a little toe t~ite, and not basically honest, and ~_be admlnistratlen suffered. I thin~ that when ~ehn Foster D~lles said one thi~ to ~asser on the Aswan dam, and then cut off the aid,. on that dam, that was unfortunate. "I don't mean to be wholly p~rtlsan on this. I feel~that when the League of Nations battle was on that public relations techniques were not successful, and that that failed. I think e~t Mr. Roose- velt, in his effort to pack the Supreme Cottrt made a mistake--in his effort to pu~6e Millamd Tydin~s. So there are guilt~ ~amtles on both sides. "But I do feel~ in government public relations, that w~ere you say somethin~ that yo~ cannot bac~ up by the facts, you are fairl~ soon discovered, and it humts." ROSS: "Oh, mare, but let me give you a very precise ~natance, well documented. Do you remember in the summer of 1955 ~amold Talbot was under g~reat att&c~, arm you remember why. And there TIFL 0521447 TMDA 2004298

-20- was a su~gestion--there was a theory he might be •bout to resign; and Hag~erty sent out a notice that there was going to be a major announcement from the White House; so more than a hundred corres- pondents flocked to the ~ite House, expectin~ to he~r the announce- ment of Talbot's real&nation. ~at happened? "There was a ~roup of scientists, and Haggerty made an announcement an~ they backed him up and spoke to the press, that because in the ~eophysical year of 1957 the United States was goin6 to put around the earth the first earth-circlin8 satellite--an irony, of cottrse, which wasn't appreciated for two years--this blanketed the front pa£es. And when Talbot's resignation was finall~ announced, the administration was still in a benign glow. "Well, this is governmental public relations too. It was not dishonest. We were plannin~ to do this. It was managerlal--it was manipulative." RUDER: "But o~viously ROSS: "Oh yes, but the truth didn't catch up until the Russians ~ot ahead of us; and you can't blame Jim Hag~erty for that." RUDEr: "We~l I do blame ~ImHag~erty though, and the admin- Ist~atlon, in a sense, particularly when the Russians put up their fLrst Sputnik, for mockin8 it as a balloon and so." TUBBY: "Well, that' s another point." BERNAY$: "Isn't this questlon--doesn't this question, in a sense, resolve itse~ in this way: that when an individual gets lecal advice, an~ it is poor legal advice, it is he who is to blame Cot takin~ a lawyer who hasn't ~ot goo~ Judgment. I would say that in the cases that you have Just referred to, you cannot blame public relations on • blanket basis, you blame the individual who is basically responsible for accepting or re~ecting advice, or for choosin~ the wr~n~ men to give it to you. ROSS: "Wouldn't ~ou say that Jim Ha~gert-y, on the whole, has been a ~ood public relations man for Eisenhower?" ~RNAYS: "I would say, appraisin~ Jim Ha~gerty from everything I ~now, that he has very often develope~ activities a~ actions which are not consistent with the thin~ng, the ideology or the TIFL 0521448 TMDA 2004299

-21- basic orientation of his client. Now I would not regard that as sound public relations from a pragmatic standpoint, as well as from a broad ethical standpoint. That is inflating; that is balloon-fillln~; that is blowin~ up somebods t,o get to a point where a pinprick can deflate that individual. ROSS: "Yes, this was the pinprick we had in '56, when he was elected by an overwhelmin~ majority." TUEHY: "Well I think Irwin is talkln~ about the techni~,ues of public relations. I thine Jim Ha~Eerty is a master at that. No one will gainsay him for the business of handlin6 press con- ferences, press releases..." HERNAYS: "B~t that's ~nl~ a ver~ minor point." TUE~Y: "But that's a very minor point." SUSSKII~D: "A testy master, you'll a~ree." ROSS: "Qu~te, quite." SUSSKIND: "May I take Just a moment's pause for a question from ou~ sponsor?" SUSSKIKD: "Hold on one moment. I wanted to say, since we're in the a~ea of public relations as it pertains to politics, that a recent article in HArper's magazine, ~ William Lee Miller, on public relations in political campaigns. Mr. Miller wrote the followin~: quote, 'The public relations man ten~s to work backwards from desired effect, to technique, to content. Xf present tendencies continue, we ma~ ~et political campaiSns tailored to fit the re- quirements of public relations, and then government tailored to fit the requirements of the campaign.'" BERNAYS: "Z think that's well said." ROSS: "I think the danger..." SUSSKIND: "Isn't that a frIghtenln~ idea?" TIFL 0521449 T3IDA 2004300

ROSS: "FriEhtenin~. And I think the dan~er in this next campai&n, or subsequent ones, is that we might have two candidates running, Tweedledun and Tweedledee--and I can think of some possible candidates in both parties that would fit those cats- &cries--who are fashioned prett~ much in this way." BERNAYS: "That's risht." ROSS: "And we've had them before. Public relations has taken rather colorless characters and..." SUSSKIND: "Can I be more specific in your ~mmediate point? We've talked about Governor Rockefeller and the Republicans; I~d like to make this point about Senator Symlngton. He is being offered to us as a candidate under very, almost pernicious E~ounds, that he is a public relations d~eam come trtw. He offends no one. He's neither an easterner or a southerner. He's never taken a position that could split the party, or cater to the liberals, or alienate the conservatives. He's handsome; he appeals to women. "No one ever says anything about him, save that he knows a lot about defense problems, that would recommend him on an affirmative, constr~ctlve level. Then isn't he a public relations fluent of the political imagination?" BERNAYS: "Yes, but Mr. Susskind, you are ascribin~ to public relations much more than it should get, rightfully or w~ong- fully. There have been leaders Ion~ before there was public relations. There have been what Princeton calls opinion managers-- public opinion managers, in a sense--Ion~ before there was public relations. Xn certain ca~es, these individuals have an awareness of these elements simply from the standpoint of bein~ intelligent people..." ROSS: "Common sense." BERNAYS: "Common sense...who analyze their public. You cannot today ascribe to public relations either the virtues of a democratic society or its faults. The most you can do, it seems to me, is to evaluate this new activit~ in terms of whether it does more good or more harm in the society." TIFL 0521450 TMDA 2004301

-23- ROSS: "Well, we're tryin~ to get off %eneralities. ~he truth of the matter is, with Symin~ton, his public relations capacity Is both native and acquired. It's acquired in the name of a ver~ capable public relations man, namely, Mr. 3ames Allen, who has been--not worki~ for hlm--but a friend of his and a consu3~tant for some time. Symln~ton I think, basically, has a sense of public relations. I think Mr. ~ernays is right, that..." ~YS: "Thank you." ROSS: "Well, I think you're right in more things than I would allow, because of the effort to keep alive a little controversy amon~ friends, on a program li~e this." SUSS~L~D: "Don't work that hard. Just relax." ( Lau~ter ~ ROSS: "On occasion m~ o~,n~ geniality will overcome me. Fo~glve me. No, but ~ think in Symington's case you can see that the lines between politics and public relations are impossible to draw. Politicians were public relations men before public relations men knew their vocation." TU~: "~hat' s right." EER~AYS: "Or profession." ROSS: "Or profeaslon. Zn Symington' case..." ~.~LNAYS: "Moat leaders were." ROSS: ~Zou k~ow, in STmington's case--and I've been a critic of Symln~ton, but let's give tha man his due--I thln~ he's a man of profound humane sentiment. I think he's also a man of ~reater calculation than man~ other politicians and of less impulsiveness than some whom we may find mo~e attractive. ~e's managed the rather difficult feat of votin~ in the last three years of voting a hundred per cent on the scorecard of Americans for Democratic Action, while all~win~ the Southerners to feel that he's one of theLr boys. "~ell, this is no mean achievement. ~'his doesn't make him a candidate fur P~esident. ~ wouldn't tale Symington, though, TIFL 0521451 TMDA 2004302

as a figure with whloh to beat the publlc relations b~siness over the he~d. ~e's done it in part because of native intuition, and pant because of shrewd public relations advice, and part because of the simple fact that if he didn't do it this way, he would in no ways be available as a presidential possibility." TUBBY: "I would say that no matter how clever a public relations ~an or firm is, you can't take, or do very much with a candidate who has nothln~ at all, or with policies that are weak and stumblin~ and confusln~." ROSS: "Quite." SUSSKIND: "Well there was All Landon at one point." EERNAYS: "~t I'd like to add a footnote." SU$SKIND: "I mean we still llve in a time..." ROSS: "Well, he was nominated." ~US~KIND: ROSS: SU$S~IND: "And he got millions of votes in two states." HERNAYS: "I~d 11~.~ to add a footnote to that Mro Ross said, and that is that in the last analysla, in any relations betwen an advisor and the person he advises, it la the person whom he advises who, in the last analysis, makes the decisions. Now if he gets an able advisor and he accepts his decision, it would, seem to me that the advisor could not be blamed for th~.t decision or credited with it. It is the man who is given the advice. So often, in public relations, the public c~nfounds advice that may be good, bad and indifferent and the action, or the attitude of the person o~ the ~roup that is advised. "Now one reason we have never given out the names of our clients is for the very good reason that we do not want to be associated with..." TUBBY: ~You're speaking, individually, n~t for the profession?" TIFL 0521452 TMDA 2004303

-25- B~flflAYS: "Ri~bt. I"m ~ust ~alkiz~ i~divldual~y. We do not ws~t ~o be associated with • clle~t who may not ~ake advice that we thi~k is good; and ~he~ we are bla~ed for ~he...w SUSSKIND: "MAsdemeano~." ~AYSI "... ~he aotlo~s t~hat he 1:ekes I~o t~hs oo~t~ary." ROSo~ ~gell woul~t you an,Joy basking in has ~eflected glory, when he ~akes your advloe." B~AYS: "Well M~. Ross, many ~ea~s ago I learned f~oa • very able man a ve~ sound aphorls~le ~sis for ae~l~. ~an be ~e vlet~ o~ ~ ~flela~y of ~ e~ts ta~ advise or not ~~ it. ~ If ~u ~e ~t as a basis, ~n ~u ~st a~o say ~t ~ ~litle~ ~ f~eti~ effeotlve~ of his ~clal goal• ~ obJ~tives,e ROSS: "Well t.hi• is • •~ation which you share with ~-~usands, I may m~.w TUBBY'. "Bu~ I think we tend mo~e and more ~o play up public relations as a great--mu~h ~eate~--powe~ ~han, in fast, it is; and ~hat you~ leaders in Ind-stry, ~o,? leaders in government will use it. And if • ~an is nati~e~7--l• wlse--he will ~ake advantage of good publlo advice •leo. I doaet ~ warFy T~u~an--in his deolslons on Turkey and ~reeee~ o~ X~an, o: TTieste or Berlin, or the Ma~ahall Plan, or ~AT0~ or Point Pou~--X don't t~ in an~ of those ~est decisl~ns of his yea he--dld he counsel wi~h ~harlay Ross pu~llc re~ati~ people o~ Madison Avenue fi~s and say, how i• this goin~ to ,~ cam~a1~n-oyo u and said, you ~st ~ake a eo~:~mise with the southerners on elvil rights o~ ~ou lose the south; ~ ~ ~ X v111 ~ ~e a ~r~se on elvll ~ts, o: offs~ o11, ~ ~ d~ lose the south. And he was ~old ~o make • e0~c~Ise or deal wi~h H~e~ Wallace in ~e~ Yo~k or he0d lose ~ew York. And he said, I ii do no suoh ~ -Z. Well he was ~aetieally ~he on~j one, even TIFL 0521453 T3IDA 2004304

close aro~n~ ht~, ~ho thought that he oou~ vin that '48 election. publ~c r~tio~o ~xperts.~ ~$: eKo "d~8 ]~L8 o~m b~st public relations T~Y: "Es was his o~n beat public relations SUSS~I~D: ~ay I ask you this, though, because this is what worries ~ a~ut public re~t~s. ~sa~ ~ ~u~t 2t was ~ o~ts~ot o~ b~esa, ~ by ~t /~I~d ~ke ~ ~ ~ su~ star,ate ~t s l~ttle b~t. To ~re ~ ~ o~ ~ys or R~er RUDe: "Not necessarily. activity, whloh you are to sore consider you." ~ you're in m public service extent, wo~d be very K~ad to SUSSEX~D: WBut. general~, the fees arc not... • SUSS~Z~D: "...are not in th~ m~st charitable level of o~ society." ~ERNAYSt "Well they are with s~gecna. A s~ge~n viii get and ~o will f~nct~ ~ for nothing cn the ~e~le ~o cannot afford him. ~ ~ ROSS: "Welt, X ~ ~e o~ht ~ all~ the ~erator tc complete his talk. s SUSS~IXD: "Thee is the vague possibility that top public relatic~ fir~ are not enployabla at the m~dest fees ~ossessod by someone llke m~self, for example. Therefore it does the tool of big InteFests.• ROSSt •Qnite. • SV~S~r~n: "~Ither a big ~on, or a big charity, or a b~ political e~a~ s~er. a.~ It se~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~t social level it's a d~eet ~al ~ese~t of ~ ~~ bi~ess ~ ~ ~tW, ~ ~efore ~~ ~ real~ ~rry a~ut. ~eause It Is as ~c~zed, as ~ll-t~ledx ~d as ~p~Ive as all ~ o~r big ~tr~ts we ~ve." ROSS~ ~/ell youOre abaolately right. The truth of TIFL 0521454 TMDA 2004305

-27- ~ttor is t~mt t~m his 1~Ion~ o~ public relatlons aro ~Io~ by bun~oen. ~ ~u 1~k o~ ~o publlo ~o~i~n ~ ~ ~ ~li~ts~ ~ oo~a~e ~ with ~ trade ~o~, ~ are ~t ~e~i~ ~i~ work ~or ~e b~ o~em ~ o~ ~ole~7. I~s quite t~. "One thing that I s~gested in print, was I di~n0t think they were about, however, to take over t~e republic, because the labor ~nlons and other g~oups in o~ society have other neao~oes at ~ir eo,,~and. B~t you~e absolutel~ riSht. The natic~al--the gas interests--paid Hill en~ Kn~wlten, not ~e~ ~ fee~ bat ~e ~I dlsbur~ts ~r ~ o~~ a~a~t ~e ~tlips d~Isl~ of t~ 8upre~ ~t, ~~ ~e ~1,6~,~,~0. ~I ~ ~de ~ ~Fs ~t ~ a public ~e~ti~s ~. e BER/~AY~: "Can I Just eo~ent on that, si~. Z feel ~hat unions nee~ sound ~blie ~e~tl~s. I ~liove ~t ~ f~ly that w~ ~. Reu~ ~vi~ ~ ~ ~o out ~ ~ ~v~ti~ ~ Clever8 to ta~ to ~s UAW, we ~de a ve~ ~o~ of what ~e labo~ ~t~n~-~ publ~ ~ehtl~of a ~ ROSSI ~ghat year ~aa that, F~. Bewnays?" ~qAYS: ~his was, oh, ~aybe e~ht years B~NAYS: "I ta:ked vith--P~8. Roosevelt ~a8 t~re, an~ Walte~ Reu~e~ ~ ~s b~F~ Vie~-~d ve put ~ ~ ~ effo~t ~ ~t, because X ~eeo~ w~t ~. Rosa said te~ of t~ fees. ~t at ~ s~ t~ Just as ~se ~ practice ~ way s~e~ ~, or ~sle~a~ o~ ~e~8, who work vi~ ~e ~gal ~, a deo~t or a res~Ib~ ~bl~e ~- ti~a ~n viii f~eti~ ~ ~ fie~a of service ~e way ~y o~er p~fession ~s. I ~ a~tee~a v~ v111 do a ~spi~l fo~ ~~, ~ get see~ ~ a ~ ~ e~t ~a ~ ~ekefelle~s fo~ b~ild~n~ Roekefelle~ ~te~.~ SUSS~Z~D: "Could ~e pause for Just a ~nt, because it's time for station b~eak. Weell ~ b~ok in an instant,s SUSS~I ~r. T~bby, are ~ou ~r~ied about this Mind of that vlth ~Alti~nai~es r.~-~-Z for ~ublle office, • TIFL 0511455 TMDA 2004306

-28* able to engage ~he even R~e~ ~ p~,n ~ ~. ~yse ~~..~. ~e~ ~ey, B~AYS: ~M~. Hubert w,-,?h~ey is never at a Xoss for any- thi~g. I k~ov ham." SUSS~I~D: "But he might be at a loss for an expert public relations outfit, vhose fees mAght be beyo~ his a~ans." ~: "X ~ a lot of people o~ht to be vorrie~ e~ut this. ~he De~oratio ~, aa ~u ~ ~ ~7 l~le f~m lead~ pupils ~e~ti~s ~, f~ lead~-~ adve~is~ f~ e~ ~e co~ ~ ~ ~a~ e~a~. ~ee~ we ~d a vo~k fo~--~ Stench e~~." SU~S~I-~D: m="~ey vere busy vl~ ~ospl~ale. m ~TrB~52': "They yore busy vi~h hospltal:; an~ the~ ve:e also busy vi~ Republle~ e~Idate8. ~d X ~ ~s Is a serious miter ~ ou: ~t~. Ve do ~ve ~ ~Jo~ pa~tiea, ~ X ~ t~t, not ~ public ~e~tl~ ~pLe; but adve=tis~ p~le, ~e p:exa~l ~ ~t ~T ~ ~I 8tev~ ~th used ~ ~o so~e ra~her levers erltioisas of X~ Ross0s t~-ade, shall X saT. and ~ ova, bees-use Z'= nov a nevspape~asn--beoause of t~e vhstever it yes, took a~ adve~tlsea~t i~ th~ paper ~ let people ~ ~t~ a~ut ~e P:es~t:s ~:km. Well, vh~ ~lai S~v~son v~t ~ S~u~, P~ylv~ ~ ~ ~st ~ai~--~e ~a a e~ida~ ~ ~e ~e~atis tloket, ~ e~didate, I bolieve~ ~ S~b~y~s hls~ ~ el~e~ pa~y ~ke a sp~ ~ ~~y ~d ~e ~~o~t of his back ~ ~ e~ssifi~ pag~so~~ a~t~ al~ ~ RUD~I~= ~ou eaa0t attack publie relatlo=s for thlsl" B]~:[NA.TS: "AA%er all, t~a Chloa~o ~ribu~e didn't me:rich Roosevelt vhen he came to GhAeago. A~ Z ~ould say, vi~ M~Ooz~,iek, TIFL 0521456 TMDA 2004307

~hs ~a of po~8on he was. the ablos~ public ~els~o~s msn ~d ou~t for th~ D~orat~¢ pa~y ~ ~t s f~. But ~t ~s ~t thei~ econ~nic determinism ax~ being kicMed out by ~hol~ o~n clients. X nos~ I know cases, qui~e aside from publie ~elatlc~s, where in a ee~ain ~ ~hat we dealt wASh, nobodF dared be a Do--rat.e BERNAYS t TUBBY: BER~AYS: "I ~hlnM that's bad, but i~: 18n't pu~lie ~e3~ti~ns." W~os." "I ~ ~t~s ~t of ~ ~ele~.~ ROSSI ~e~ y~u get In~o polltleal public ~eXati~s, it see~ to me ~t, baalcsl~, ~u ~ ~ deal wi~ ~a~o~a,b~e~ ~ ~litloal public ~e~ti~ teo~ques, f~st o~ted ~u'~e ~~ a~u~ ~e ~ ~al~. ~~t "ItOn fullest def~e~." neu~ally e~elv~ ~ ~u wall, al~~ ~ual~ ~ ~e s~e of You ~d ~il Fee~ e~ss-fi~, .~ Republle~ eould ~ ~ a D~e~atie pp~ ~ vie~veF~. You ~d a ~ek of ~sse8, pa~y 1~deFs. ~ ~sequ~oe Is ~ ~ Ga1~o~la a ~eFiod of ~Fe t~ ~ Fea~s ~ ~ea~ ~ of ~lltles bee~ ~e g~ea~ g~ of pub~le ~e~i~. ~ ~ ~blle Fe~%i~ political e~a~. ~ ~re ~ torques used yore ~a~er defea~ of Up~ S~i~ ~ ~9~. ~ ~u ~ve ~ ~e ~est of ~ oo~t~ ~u f~ pub~e ~~s p~ple ~ ~ s~ff of every 052145"/ TMDA 2004308

ability of the individual practltlcner, ~ho la a staff man. "B~t it seems to me that if you are goin~ to talk about the baleful effects of public relations on American llfe, you basically have to stay in the area of industry. Z mean, last Thursday the Ci:~ouit Court of Appeals for the Thir~ circuit in Philadelphia e~nflrmsd Ju~e Clary*a declainn in the famous railroad-trucker litlgaticn, ~hich held that the Eastern President's Railroad conference an~ the several railroads Involve~ in that an4 the firm of Carl ~y~Ir an~ Associates vere guilty of a con- spiracy in ~eetraint of trade for t~Ir public relations campaign against the truckers. "This is one of the most famous campaigns in public rela- tions history. Au~ this the, ~hleh, you kn~, we~t into millions of dollar~oX don0tknow ~hat the flguPe is offhan~o-this la a public relatlans eam~ai~n, this was an effort. Az~ by the ~ay, the truckers had ~ve ~y, ~ ~u ~, ~s ~ sloa~ ~e~ were active ~. ~s was a e~~ ~ ~rsuade ~ ~rie~ ~ublic t~t ~e truckers were d~g~ ~ ~ads, ~ ~t ~e~dial le~is~ti~ vas ~oessa~. ~s IS a o~~ ~t ~- volve~ ~e sott~ up of f~nt orga~ati~s ~ N~ ~ers~, ~ N~-~ York State ~ ~ ~. ~s ~ae~ all ~la ef ~~eati~. ~ia was a b~ deal. ~s yes publle ~lati~s on the ~ustrial lev~l. Z'm ~t say~ this was t~ ~ly aue~ ea~a~. ~ia yea ~e of t~ f~ c~~a which f~al~ ~aehe~ ~ ae~~ ~f a ~t, for ~eaao~ ~t ~ere fertilize." SU~S~ND~ ~ut you nc~ have hit, it seams to me, the crux. The thln~ that worries me, as it m~st indee~ many oltlsens, about public relations, is its manipulative aspects, ~that the A~rieau ~entallty is a bowl of ~ello that he ~V~mlpa into ~artlcula~ fla~ora.~ 'ROSS: "Let ~. Bernays, ~ho c~ee ~te an eas_a~ in 19RS, called, 'Kanipulatlng P~bli~ Oplnlen, t answer that," SUSSEX: ~lan0t it equally w~ong foryou ~ prove that ~y~ W~~ ~ ~he ~eo~lets ~ele~ as it ~s Kor ~ ~ p~ve B~NAYS~ "Well let m~-eope~' SUSSKXXD! "A~entt yo~--oh, you've spllle~ ~r water. Well, that oould happen anthers, I think. Yea, ~. Be~nays." B~NAYS: ~et me say this, ~. ~usakln~z in 1928, X wrote a piece for the American Soelolo~ical Journal, vhleh vas not calle~ '~nlpulat~ Public 0~i~Ic~,~ b~t was calle~, ~n- i~ulatlng P~blle Opinion, the ~ an~ the TIFL 0521458 T IDA 2004309

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ability of the individual practitioner, he is a staff man. eBut it seems to me that if ~ou are goiz~ to talM about ~e baleful effects of ~ub~c ~ti~ basically ~ve to a~y ~ ~e ~ea of ~r~day ~ ~uit ~u~t of Ap~a~ ~iladel~a ~~4 ~e C~'s doclml~ ~ ~ f~ua ~ai~oad-tr~er linearly, ~ ~ ~t ~ ~a~ Pres~t's Rai~o~ ~e~e ~ ~ several ~ai~oeds ~volv~ ~e fi~ of Ca~l ~ ~ Aa~e~ea vere ap~ao7 ~ ~ea~ra~t of ~a~e for ~ public re~ti~ e~i~ aga~at ~e "~nis is one of ~ most famous campaigns in publle rela- tions history. And ~hia thin~, ~hieh, you knc~, ve=t into millions Of dollars-oX don~ public relations campaign, ~his vaa an effort. the truckers had ~ve ~y, ~ ~u ~, ~0a ~ alou~ ~ey were ae~ive ~. ~a was a e~~ ~ ~raua~e ~ublio ~t ~e t~uo~rs were dm~ ~ ~ada, ~e~ial legia~tl~as ~eeaaa~. ~a i~ a emi~ volved ~e sett~ up of ~nt orga~ati~ ~ N~ Yo~k Sta~e ~ ~ ~. ~a use~ all~ia of ~~oa~i~. ~is was a b~ deal. ~s vas public ~lati~a ~ t~ ~us~rial level. Z'm~t aa7~ t~a vaa t~ ~y such Oa~~. ~ia vaa ~e of t~ f~ e~~s vhieh f~al~ ~ao~d ~ soru~ of a ~t, for ~eaao~ ~t ve~e SU~S~ZNDt ~But you no~ have hit, it aeem~ to me, ~he crux. .m~e thing that wo~ies me, as it m-at indeed man~ oitisena, about public relations, is i~s manipulative aspects, .t~at the A~rlc~ mentality Im a bowl of ~ello t~at he ~d~.pa into ~artioular flavors." 'ROSSI e~etM~. Be~naye, ~ho onee~mote an oas~y in 1928, called, 'Manipulati~Publi~ Opinion, 0 ~wer SU~S~]I~: ~Xan't it equall~w~on~ for you to prov~that ~~ ~i~ ,f, he people~a Jeweler as it ~a for y~ ~o p~.ove there is no eanoe~ in cigarettes?" SUSSKZ~t WAve, it ~--oh, you've spilled ~o~r rater. ~ell, that oould happe~ an.vwhare, X thinM. Yes, Kr. Be~naya." ~4~AYSt ~Let me say this, 1~. 8~ssklnd~ In.192.8: X wrote a pieee for the American Sociological ~ou~al, vnzon vas not called 'Manipulatin~ Public 0plnlc~,' bat was called, i~ulatlx~ P~blle Opinion, t~ How and the ~T.~" TIFL 0521461 TMDA 2004312

-31- ROSS: "Well Z Just briefly truncate~ yo~r tAtle." B~R~AYS: "Well '~here~a a g~eat difference." ROSS: "It escaped me at the m~ent." B~P~NAYS: "Well, okay. ~/hat X tried to do in this, Z 1~ried the processes were. Z u~uld say that in the light of 30 years of working with public opinion and in the field of publle optnlc~, Z have no greet fears that an~ public relatlcna man can overcome the country unless Me uaea subversive or antisocial means, or moth, otis that are ~t used by t~ ~ieal praotitlmmer." ROSS: "~@u m~an, he mAg~t be ~nsueeeaeful?" ~R~A.VSz "Be, no. X mean t~at if ha pits race ~a~t race or re~i~ a~st refill, ~ebbela did, he if ~ou fol~ greatest 8af~uarda of de~orao~ ROSS: "Qsite, quite." B~RKAYS| "...an~ that you can only accelerate to a very sli~ht ~egree aualready exlat~ movem~,t or trend. Or you might even take a trend that is mov~-~ and develop a slowdown in its oo~rae." ROSS: "What you're aay~-z, ~r. ~ernaye, ia ~hat the manl- pulator of publ~ op~ is l~ted by ~ giv~ sitarS, by the apa~ of ~ pub~c--~ ~ ~o~ ~ a~ o~ ~ p~blio.~ BER~IAYS~ "Well absolutely, so that I~mnot fearful ~fXr. Susskind~a point. Xn fact, one of ~ ve~ brlll~t ~ ablest ~e~l psychiologlsts, a ~ up at Yale, v~te a piece ~ ~t, ~whlch~ ~ioate~ ~t ~ public le~ v111~ ~ accept ~t It a priori ~s a~adT~ll~ ~ accept." 'AT)'B~: -"Rc~aevelt and 'the Sew Deal." "Yea but Z'm~r~led about this, and Z ueed this as a s~eclfic earlier. When ou~. g~ve~m~ent an~ the aurge~. general~reof Issues a p~=~unol~m~to about~ ~ cause-and- effect relati~nshlp of ~m~kln~ an~ eanee~..." TIFL 052146Z TMDA 2004313

-32- S03~ISD! "...t~e Tobacco ~tltut~-~dle~ o~ or advised o~ ~eer~ by O0~t public o~tce~ of ~ Unlt~ ~~: "As a mt~r of fact, ago, ~fo~e ~e~e ~J a ~ce~ J~a~o, ~ ~ fo~ 8 ~~ of ~s Wlth tobacco--you have in ~lea • n~bir of Tobac~ a~ra, ~ you ~ve a n~r of a~a, as ~u ~ ~. T~bby, t~t are ~e~4~t ~ tobao~ as a basic c~p. ~ ~t ~ ~ve a oerta~ ~Ival~oe ~ ~ public offiolal at ~ti~l h~- ~ormta are ~ ~er ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~uso, ~t is ~ to ~ko ~ iss~ a tory ~ed issue at ~s t~. ~ Z ~ on ~ o~r ~, ~t despt~ ~o fact ~t it Is a ~n- ~ed Issue, despl~ ~ flat ~t ~e ~baoco ~~s are newspa~ra ~ ~r ~la, ~t ~ a ~clet~ l~e o~s ~ i:~a f~8 ~.ts ~vol, ~o it f~s its Iovol ~o~ word of ~. it f~s I~ ~vel ~ p~=m= of ~s ~, It f~s its ~vel ~ te~ of d~eratte ~lls ~t p~J~t b ~t of ~t~ ~ t~s case, of se~tlflo ~. ~ ~ ~ a ~ttle g~l eall~ ~s ~ ~eoo ~teres~/ -~ ~ a ~ttlo ~le a~ ~ om out vll~ • very poteut prono~t that va• carried by whl~ Is ~ e~tl~ of ~ fabu~us ~r14 of public tlens, you havo • couple of qo~at~s Ru~er's ~~ ~s ~e public ~rest. At oolleasues ~d ~s be ~aotured. e~rt ~ will ~ ~~ t~t ~ efforts of ~e pubic ~I~ ~ ~ get ~ doo~r or pro~esso~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~t we w~t ~, ~ ~tvo va~l~ TIFL 0521463 TMDA 2004314

RZD~R: "Well, ~hi8 is absolute3~v true, but i~ ~he msFket place of exper~tees ~oda7 you ca~ f~ people of, perhaps ques- tionable ethics, wh~ will be quite willing to say any~4~ that you vast them to say. Fu~themsore..." ROSS: "Wil t~is happen ~efore publle realtlc~s, ~h~ug~?" RUDe: "Yes, absolutel~ right. An4 f~ther~nre, you can be in a sense eem~letely e~ical about tMis bynet even asMing a m~n ~ dlstert his op~ica. Z~ t~ v~le flel~ of a ~artloular discipline you can hunt ~rticu~r ~ e~ out of w~t ~u v~t~ ~ ~n peeps explol~ti~. ~ ~s lion ~d s~sltlvlty ~ ~s ~ ~ built up, ae act~ lle. ~ ~t ~ ROSS: "Well, h~w do .you mean,-Bill? L~ok, lock, a~rt of re;resentlng a ellent whleh you ~uldntt ~epresant vho stands for the Hasi Government, l~t's say, oF ~ stands for a ~duet which you know-is gotn~ ~o kill .snell ohildre~. Such clients 3ou voul~n~t reproJ~t. But, yOU ~epresent, Iot08 say, Client X. He has a p~oduet vhieh is disputed b7 o~h4r p~o~uets, by o~her people, by so~o au~h~rities. You ~biz~ it has ~ome reasonable claims ~o public presentation. ~ you staz~ sbopp~m~ azun~5. ~here does ethics ~ter hepe? ~ ~ ~uai~ a~ut ~8 ~t co~s ~m a feel~ ~t ~u ~e spee~l pleaders. You ~ve eve~ ~t as public re~tl~s ~, I~ ~rs, ~ ~ special p~a~ers. ~ ~ dlsa~e~t Is ~t vl~ ~ 8~llty of ~e ~lea, but wi~ ~ 8as~ti~ ~t It Is ~ ~ ~cesaary e~so~ce wi~ t~u~. ~ s~e, you ~ep~a~t Pr~uet X, ~ f~ ~ p~fea~r ~ ~s PF~t X 18 a ~eat ~. Xt,a ~t ~e~cal ~ ~ as It Is ~t ~8s~ n~iou8, ~a p~uet. ~at ~ a~ ~a d~eul~ e~eat~ a~ut ~a~" RUDe: ~Well. ~e ~int is ~hat Z ~c~'t ~ we ~ ~hat. Z thiz~ in ter~ oA" say, Prc~et X. ~ere we have a glass, take a glass, ~. ~er, tame the Sidney TIFL 0521464 TMDA 2004315

~a~on Pub:Lie Relations liana. Tt allowed Itself to be engaged by good face to the American people on the ~uJlllo Dictatorship. :Is that ethical?" RUDe: "l would say no, but the reason ]: you,d say n~ is because ve were appl~oaehod on exactly the same ~ and tmmod the client do~n. X d~0t know bow sol, ices thei~ appz~ae~ was but I0m kind o~" A'lattel-ed that I had a chance to tul-n it down. An~ that is vet7 l~oort~nt to me." SUSS~Z~D: "~,lle what ~ould be the ethic t~at would dictate TUS~Y: ~Pnen l*d lake to inte~Jeot,.." BERNA~: %..we turned do~n Hitler TU~M: "Well the=~ is, it it 8~~: "O.ood ohap~ ]~, Be.'.naye.w TUBBY: "Y~net it wl~ng then~ isn'St ~t Just ms unethical, the sreat ve~t ~ ev~ee~ l ~, for v~t~r pubtte ~ti~ ~, o~ o~ise, re~rt~-~uld ~ ~ ~Ioate ~t ~bae~ it doe. ?r~uo. e~e.~. ~ X ~ ~ public ~ ~ o~ ~ ~ke~ a e~a~.~ ROSS: "I0n ut~rivileged~ Roger, I never learned bow to TU~Y: "Well, an.way, I think this is pr~tt~ serious business, to engage In pron~Igating a mistake~ belief 4. 8omethi~ that TIFL 0521465 TMDA 2004316

t~n~ ts--l~he 5rest velght o~ opimlon te--that 11; is hax,mful millions of people." BERNAYS: "That's vhy I thin~ that until public melations m~n are licensed, and lose their licenses if they don't follo~ the public interests, until that time y~u will get a lot of ~L~ginal people. Today..." ROSS: "Oh, one moment, NA~. ~erna~s, I have to IntePJect that if public relations counselors were licensed, do you thln~ that Hill and Enovlton, 250 e~loyees, • volume of billin~s in excess of $2,000,000 vould not be licensed o~ vould be ~ega=ded as bei~ as unethical ~ecause the~ ~epresented the tobacco manufacturers?" ~AYS: "I thin~ that vould be up to the Boa=d of Regents." ROSS: "Who would--an~ then, do ~ou think that you could have a ~overnmental structur~ that c~uld determine that ode client in such an arena of public debate is not allowed to have • p~blic relations counsel..." ~AYS: "~ell, let me..." ROSS: ".. ~an~more than ~AYS: "~I!, lawyers have the Appelate Division, that Judges as to their ethical conduct." ROSS: "Now do they decide these thinss?" ~AYS: "A Board of Regents, aboar~ of exa~rs..." ROSS: "Hov can the~ conceivabl~?" ~T~AYS: "~fell, they do it in othe~ fields." ROSS: "They can license the people?" R~NAYS: license." "The~ can license it, and they can vlthd~av the ROSS: "An~ .then they vould have to d ete~mlne the ethical character o~ each client who wants to come to :uch a fi~m?" TIFL 0521466 T3IDA 2004317

-36- SUSSKIND: "What •bout--let us ta~e another specific of the steel st~i~e where once the issue is Joined between the unions and the steel companies, it seems to be • slusfest in the public prints, spearheaded b~ the public relations firm of the Steel Institute, calculated to convince the American public that the steel companies a~e on the side of econom/c equilibrium, that the~ e~e anxious to •void inflation, and that these distu~bin~ chaps, the steelwor~ers, a~e train6 to sen~ us into 4-~latio-a~y spi~als which will hu~t Nou~ pocketbooK, ,v~. and M~s. America. If you read this case in the public print, it's an overwhelming case of truth on the side of the steel companies and nothin~ but insurgent, selfish in~lationarN desire on the part of the steelworkers. "Now, isn't this another situation where public relatiorm is harnessed at expensive fees to prove a case that perhaps maybe Just abort of the truth." BERNAYS: "That isn't public relations, that'8 M~. Roger ~lousb or ~lou~b. In other words..." ROSS: machine." "Well, it's ~ill a~d Knowlton and its whole propa~a.nd• ~AYS: "l_n other words, if ~. Blough and the other of the American Steel and Y~on ~nstitute, had a broad concept of theL~ relationship to the society in which they live~ if then ~eco~nized that the~ wore in an evolutionar~ trend and were w~o~n~ in their point of view, if theN realized that all the bad advice then might £et would not ma~e them a~here to it. So that that is not public relations advice that must be blamed, it is the reactionary attitude of the people who run the steel companies. "Now, we've wor~ed with a lot of people in America, a lot of la~£e corporations; a~d you'll fin~ the ~bole gaz~ut of attitudes amon~ businessmen fTom left of middle, to extreme right of middle. When you're dealln~ with an individual who is right of middle, he ma~ pay Nou for advice and he ma~ then do what ma~ people in the socletN do when the~ get advice, then tr~ to build up thei~ own e~os bN validatin~ thel~ p~e-conceived attitudes~ and advice that ~,,n. counter to those e~os is ~eJected. And the more then pap for it, the mo~e thei~ ego becomes e~anded ~ith thei~ sense of SuAve tN. "So that ~ don't blame--I don't kno~ what advice Hill and Eno~lton gives, ~ do ~no~ that very often public relations people ~i'~'e advice that the~ thin~ the client wants to hear Just as doctors do or psychiatrists do or even architects do who are dominated onl~ bN thel~ ecmno~ic deter~inism,n TIFL 0521467 TMDA 2004318

-37- SUSSKIND: "Can I ask you a specific question of a prof- essional nature. The Fidel Castro government in Cuba has en~aged the Bernard Relin firm to present its case to the American people. Would ~ou suggest that M~. Castro fire this firm?" EERNAYS: "No. Z wo~tld suggest Mr. Ca|arc orient himself either through advice from this firm if It's--Z d~n't happen to ~now the fLrm--If it's capable of giving it, or advice from somebody else, that will determine his attitudes and his actions relative to his goals. "Now I toda~--I happened to have worked on a situation with Cuba--I would say that as of toda~ I would doubt very much whether Mr. Castr~ is a well-balanced Judgematlcal individual, has a ver~ objective point of view, either about his relation to the Cuban people or hla relation to the countries of the world. I would say if he did have, then Z would assume that th6 advice he &eta--assuming he takes it, if he gets if frm~ a 8cod individual or fLrm--mi&ht be helpful to him. ~But, it would seem to me from everything Z hear an~ read, that Mr. Castro had better dispense with any advla~r on public relations because apparently he is not willln~ to take advice ~t is based on his adjustment to the far&or society as well as to the Cuban people." ROSS: "You ~now, M~. Bernays, i've s~ddenly divined the moment of truth in this dlscuasion which has escaped me previously." ~ERNAYS: "Z'm glad of that." ROSS: "I'm equally delighted. It is simplythis:~ it is very easy to determine the locus of public interest for a client. It is the public interest as Mr. Bernays sees; az~ if you follow this, 7ou're on the beam. If you don't, y~u'~e not. I think politically, you and I a~e in a~x, eement. You see, I thin~ we'both share the same liberal inclinations, and probablythe same liberal obfuscations. But there ~re many other clients in ou~ society who don't have the wisdom to a~ree with you an~ me, but they're equally susceptible to public relations advice and to the same techniques, and that's also public relations." TIFL 0 21468 TMDA 2004319

-38- RUIIER: "Loo~, I think this conversation is ~oin~ off into an abstract." ROS~: ' I think you should have a word here, Bill, .we' ve tal~ed too much." RUDER: "Thank 7ou very much. And I think perhaps ou~ fl~r. operates within a different perspective than F~. Be~nays. We've sat at his feet for man7 yeaA~s and we Pespect h~m ~reatly. We certainly don't operate within the field of political public relations. "Here we are, we'~e a ~.c,~p of about 130 or I~0 people, and we make a livin~ workinE for a number of clients. Now, I feel, and I'm stare there's a lot of rationalization in this, but X think that we can make a maJo~ contribution to the .8oals of these clients, namelp, to sell thei~ merchandise, to make • pl~oflt, to peFpetuate their corporate existence. "I think that we can do this in ways in ~hich we can help this client of oul-s make a cont~ibution to society, certainl~ not do an~t~hin~ that is detrimental to society, I think to leave it in a better condition in which he foun~ it. And in the third place, to operate within a certain amount of ~ood con~cience and effort upon OU~ p~t." ROSS: society?" "Well, why does he have to make a contribution to (Several spoke slmul~aneoualT} ' RUI~: "...we operate m~re successfully that way. Wow look..." SUSSKI~D: "When profits are so large y~ need a sense of create--" RUDER: "Alr~ht, David said some~n~ about--Mr. ~ernays putting Ear~y Winston--mak~ng people think he was the people's Jeweler, or somethin~ like that..." SUSSKIND: "I thou6ht it would be an interesti~ assignment." TIFL 0521469 T3IDA 2004320

-39- RUDER: "I don't know whetheP it was the client oP ~at the situation was. ~ut I think that a public Pelations counsel-- instead of makin~ people think that Narr~ Winston is the people's Jeweler--can make a substantial contribution to n~kin~ Har~y Winston the people' e Je~eleP..." ROSS: "No, I think that..." RUI~: Ithln~." "...and i~ we do that, we are performing a ~esl good, SUSSKI~D: "You think making him the people's Jeweler is reall~ worth a tln~er's dam?" ROSS: "I don't think it matte~.s. Look, I thinR..." RUDER: "It's important to ~ Winston." ROSS: ~You'~e confusin~ SUSSK~TD: "Zsa Zsa Oabo~ will continue to bu~ hew stuff there..." SUSSKZI~D: "...no matter what ~ou do. X ~onde~ if Z could for ano~he~ pa~t because it's a moment to tal~ about ou~ client." SUSSKZND: "We wo~'.e ~~s--It ~ee~ to ~-~t to o~ baek~a~ to e~~ we said o~lle~ ~t I ~k we'~e ~vi~ publ~o ~e~tlon8, as such, too ~eat a we~t ~ ~is disc~si~. A public ~latio~ f~, a publlo ~elatio~ ~n o~ ~ i~o~tion specialist, ever Nou ~7 ea~ it, Is s~l~ ~ agent. "~ ~e e~17 da~a you ~d a t~a~er ~ ~e Ad~ondacks, ~ou ~d a ~ ~ ~d a b~o~s~ ~op, ~d he was his ~ ~ent. He told people h~mse~ about ~s p~od~ts, a~ if ~p li~ed products,~'; bo~t; ~. ~e~ li~d his se~ices o~ ~e~ cont~ued TMDA 2004321

"Now, because of ou~ co~plexities, ~e hi~e agents, public relations people, in some cases, advertisin~ people in others, to promote, to spread the word a~ound about ou~ products. T don't think, 1. doubt that public relations people have the ~ei~ht that we seem to be ~ivin~ them in this discussion tonight. "1" think the~'re very important, 1. think theT"-re i~porta~t as advisors, and 1. think that public relations people to be good in their Jobs ought to be vet7 close to the top men in coerpaniee or in £overr~ent~ or in gove,~suent a~encies if the7 a~e sex,v~ them f~ a two-we7 street, infol~l~ ~_~m what ~o public feels about ~ W~ston, or about ~obacco oP about le~ase, oP ~teve~ it ~ be; ~d advis~ ~l~ clients. But, ~e7 ~ a~ter all, reall~ o~ a~ents. We'~e ~ki~ ~em so~d, I ~in~, too dervish ~ ~oo oo~p~, ~ost too evil." RUDER: "Let's &et back to ~i~. Bernays' point of the advisor and the man who accepts has advice~ ar~ who ~eall~ i~ ~sponsible. A~ ~ o~ feeli~ abou~ ~is is some~at ~es ~d no, ~ occasio~ll~ ~ ~e d evelo~nt of a public ~latlo~ ~o~ ~o~ a client~ ~ou f~ a the~, ~ou f~d a patte~, ~ou f~ a wap in ~hich ~ou t~nk ~ou can take ~is client's p~od~ts o~ his ~ssage and ~late ~em to t~ ~bllc, a~ before ~ou ~o~ it, ~ public ~elations p~o~am itself can st~t ~ affect ~e client's actions, and ~ie is a v~ in~eat~ t~. "For instance, we have a client fo~ vhom ~e have an a~t project. Now, this ~as conceived as beln~ the public interest, it was conceived as ~ a f~e publlci~ vehicle fo~ ~e client. ~fo~e ~ou ~ow it, ~o~, It stated to bac~ ~, not f~ Just ~ a public ~elt~e a~ o~ati~ vizir a vacua; ~t ~ client got Involved ~ ~ concept of go~ ~t ~ fi~ design. ~d ~ felt ~t It ~d ~ Inco~is~nt fo~ a client~~ fo~ instance, ~ ~ve lou~ pac~~, ~le he Is ~po~on~ ~ ~t p~oJect. And ~ ~acka~ ~t~te~ to ~ove ~ ~ basis of ~s. F~lly, ~ act~l ~o~ ~t ~ ~ot ~olved ~ ~ basic des~ of ~ p~oduct ltae~. ~Now I don't ~nov wher~ ~ou d~aw the li~e he~e--I don't if ~ou do call that public relations. But to ~e it is one of ~he satisfactions of ou~ business, that ve can do that. ~ feel~ is that a public relations flr~--and public ~elations ie so broad an~ the~e can be so ~ different kin~s of s~ecialties in this T IDA 2004322

spectrum, and a big fLrm has to operate on a h~oad band, we do-- but we do specialize in t~lnE to p~act~ce ~e k~ o~ public nelat~o~ ~at helps to move ~enchandlse. ~d a~aln--I don't ~ow i~ ~in Is ~i~ ~ tell ~ I'm ~atlo~l~z~ ~e--~t I do ~..." ROSS: "I'm listenin6 patiently." RO~3: "I tale too much." RUDER: "I do think that we can help to move merchandise fo~ a client. I do thine that we can help create demand. I think that this is • Eood thing in ou~ society. You look at the p~oductive capac2t~ ~f eoctet~ rod•T, of ou~ econo~ today and it needs demand in o~d~r to keep functioning." RUDER: "Oh, b7 all means." ROSS: "Lo~k, vh7 can't 70u boTs Just be b~stness men? can*t ~ou be advocates. Wh~ can't ~ou..." BERNAYS: "Because we'~e not: because we're not." Wh7 ROSS: "M~. BernaTs, ~. BernaTe, you~e in • special eete- ~o~ because of you~ senio~lt7 and 7ou~ theoretical con~ib~tiona to the field. Bat look, you t~ to Sul~Tound this business..." ROSS: "You t~ to SurTou~d ~.le business vlth an~au~• of dlstinctlon..o" ~NAYS: "~o~ d~es ~J,S sound distinctive. I'm ~u~t tr~in~ to tell 7ou wh7 I have flm here." ROS~: ~Well, you have ihAn because 7ou went to Shul Mat~ah (?) as a youn~ boy •n~ you have • aisslonan7 ~eal, an~ you have to have a social purpose of life, and It's not enough to make mO~7. But I~m not here to psychoanalyze you. Bat, 7cub ave..." RUDER: "Bat, 7ou Just did." TIFL 0521472 TMDA 2004323

ROSS: "Well, no, n~..." 5ERNAYS: "He did a quick analysis," SU$SKIND: "He made nn incldsntal contribution." ROS~: "I always do ~hls ~arenthetlcally, Bill. ~t look, reall~, l ~now you're a 8o~ fell~, a~ I ~ow 7ou'~ active ~ ~mocratlc politics. I ~k act~y 7~ hold office, d~'t 7ou, in West~ester RUDER: "I'm on the school board." ROSS: "You're on the school board. Bully. Well basicall~ this is a busLusss. Y~u have clients. Certalnl7 you don't want to do anythin@ 7ou would regard as socially harmful. I wouldn't doubt that for a moment. But my only objection to all this Is ~he notion that you are really tryln8 to infuse--an~ it's a basic purpose--some l~lic weal in all this, e~me public purpose in all this. Y~ it happens, I wo~id suggest it's incidental to the main purpose, which is to move the client's merchar~ise. Now, I don't attack it at all, I thank that's quite a fine thing..." (Several ~poke simnltane~usl~) RUDER: "One of tim thin~s that I want to do is leave things better than I found them..." ROSS: "So, you york for the #ewlah Theolosical Sen~Muar~, you wor~ for ~he Hillsi~e Hospital. That's fins. In the ~ant~, 7ou'~e movi~ ~~dise, 7ou'~ a aales~. ~t's perfectly a~i~t, but let's not ~e~ involved wl~ all t~8..." (Several spoke eln~taneousl~) RUDER= WLr~In, I have a relatlon~hip with a client. O~ay. The ollent conducts his business on a certain level, t~elve, when I f~ h~. O~ay? N~, it eee~ to ~ wi~ ~e ~i~ of exerts I ~ve, ~ ~e so~ of ~e c~afts I'm ~upposed to ~ve, I c~ ~Ip t~ client operate his ~eas on a sudden a p~etentiou~ SUSSKI~: "A very unlucky level." TIFL 05214'73 TMDA 2004324

ROSS: "No more pretentious..." SUSSKIND: "No, all Mr. Ross was attemptln~ to do vlth a modicum of humor which emerged--wlth a mlnimum--there g~es another prop." ROSS: "and with a minimnn of discretion, ~ouml~ht add." SUSSKZ~D: "He was attemptin~ to rid ~A of any notion that you were functionin~ as a minor Red Cross. Be was su~eatin~ that there was pungent pr~lt motive, that you were indeed e~aged in a business, and that ~ou were te~ibly successful at it. "I challenge you ~hapa on a different level. X am worried about what ~ou a~e d~in~ on ~-~ tobacco issue, what you a~e doin~ on the steel strike. Nay, I'm even coz~%~sed ~ ~18 pett~ ~ issue. You ~ve coerced ~ as a conaeq~nce o~ ~most eve~ dail~ ool~, that ~ M~ray is ~ wittiest ~n ~ ~rica. Now, Z ~ow ~~ M~a~--a~ eye,day in aO~ col~n E~I Wilson, Walter W~chell, ~ton W~r..." HERNAYS: "That Isn't public relations, that's press a~entry..." ROSS: "~hat'8 part of it, that's part of it, bc~s." ~RNAYS: "No, no..." SUSSKXND: "The thin~ that confused me is that knovlng Arthur Murray to be a £entle, ~weet, respectable man, of all thln~s he isn't a rampagln~ wit. ~t each daT's column contains something that would do credit to ~rk T~ain at his best.." ROSS: "X agree." SUSSKX~D: "...that you chaps have written." ROSS: ~ghat difference d~e• it make?" HERNAYS: =We don't write anTthln~ anymore. Z don't write anythln~ so that ?ou're oonf'oundln~, ~t" X ma~ say that, various activities within the field of public relations. There are people who give advice, there are people who do publicity in • one-way street, there are people who are press agents, there are people who &re ooo" TIFL 0521474 TMDA 2004325

SUSSKZND: "What's the difference between a public relations man and a pr~se a~ent besides income?" ~ER~Y$: "Well, I wou~d s•7, ~. Sussklnd...~ ROSS: "As Iam Cantor ver~ well put it..." HERNAYS: "...~hat there is • ver~ basic difference. As I see it, • public relatlo~s counsel is an individual who advises his client on ~s ~elatio~ wi~ ~e public. ~e ~i~st t~ies to f~d out ~at ~ ~laJus~nts ~e be~een ~ client's ~si~s and ~e public. He ~n a~ises his client on attires ~ on actio~ ~t will ~ ~tte~ related to ~et~ ~s soc~l objectives. And ~en, afte~ ~e client ~s rectified his •ttltudes ~ his actions~ ~ then helps ~e client to ~o~ ~e public ~ ~s~de ~e public to an aocep~ce of ~e po~t of view of ~e product, ~e co~po~a~ion, ~e o~6a~zation, or w~teve~. N~, ~ ~t..." SUSSEIED: "As distinguished from the p~ess agent, who does what?" SERHAYS: "Well, what the press a&ent does--what the public relations counsel does, is to work on • tw~-wa~ street of findln~ out client's desires, of finding out public attitudes, public re~nonsiveness, and then bringing •bout better relationship between ~he two in terms of •ctlons that he may modif~ of the client's, or attitudes he may modif~ of the client's. "Now, a press a~ent--and Z was a press agent for Ca~uso an~ NiJlns~-~ and Dia~hilev--and I'm fa~li~ wi~ Otis S~r a~ ot~rs. A p~ss a~en~ ~c~io~ on a o~-va~ s~e~ of atte~tin~ ~o project ~s client to ~ pubic, ~o~ ~ p~ss ~ toda~ other media. ~en I was dot~ it there was o~ ~e p~ss ~ ~e publlc--a~ ~rtodic~s--publlcatlons. ' SUSSK~: "Then ~ I propose a h~pothesls? A public relations counselor en~a6ed b~ Arthur ~hArrs~ t~ convince the American public ~hat he's • wit would c~ne back t~ the client and sa~, 'I've studied ~ou ver~ carefull7 and I've also made • minor st'u~ o£ the American public, ax~ the tx~th iS 7ou're not • wit.'" B~RNAYS: "An~ you project him in some other way...' SUS~I~: "$o, we will confine our message to the American public to the mention of the fact that ~ou ~now how to dance. '" TIFL 0521475 TMDA 2004326

~t~AYS: "No, not necessaril~ that he ~nows how to dance. But, let us sat that this man--I happen to Enow A~thu~ Murray, I ~new him pears a6o--let us sap that this man is an able dancer. Maybe what might be done is to have him--to attempt to arTan~e to have him bro_usht to England to teach the little Prince ChArles how to dance..." SUS~KIND: "That's a horTible thought, I ml~ht saT, M~. Berna~s..." ROSS: "Then he might l*un for Parliament, too, as lon~ as he's . the~-e...he can become natu~allzed, I mean..~. SUSSKI~D: "...that vorp tall, pa~tl~ baldin~ chap dancin6 with the little I~ince." ~R~AYS: "Not danc~;, but toa~Lln~ him how to dance. that can be done..." TUB~: "But, 7ou don°t think the idea of having Arthu~ humorous ~hen he°s not..." ~RNAYS: "Havin6 him humo~oum when he t~ not is Just adventitiou~ and untrUeo" ROSS: "Bu-t, the thin~ to do, accordin~ to F~-. Berna~s, is not ma~ him seem humorous, but to make hl~ a butt of humor." ~ERNAYS: "I~ he's that t~p~ of fol1~." TUB~ "Let him be t~e butt RUDER: "I thin~ this is all immaterial because, as I u~e~- stand it, A~thu~ MurTap makes a livi~ out of dance studios. O~a~. I Just wonder whether an~bod~ ~oes to his dance studio because he * s humorous or because he ~ s not humorous, o." ~AYS: "That map be a personal reason, too..." ROSS: "But, ~ou w~uld ~-fuse him with a social consciousness." RUDER: "No I w~uldnOt. It seems to me that the kind of thine that A~thur Murra~ wants to tell people is th~ can have fun dancing, that the~ can r~lax dancing, that perhaps it's a youthful, social ~ace; an~ I think that within that f~amewor~, the~-e's a lot of public relations wo~k that could be done fo~ A~thur M~rTa~." TIFL 0521476 TMDA 2004327

SUSSETND: "1 ~hlnk ~be Post; dLd a ~e~Lbl~ e~ec~Lve when I~ demo~ated~ It see~d ~ ~, ?at~ concluslvel~, ~t it's no~ o~ f~ danc~ but i~ c~ cost ~ou $100,000." ROSS: "And it can turn back ~h~uahchev. be the public relations technique." I mean that ~uld SUSSKZKD: "And I llke the that of ~neakin~ him into ~uckln~ham Palace somehow, ~he~e he would pirouette a~our~ with..." ~R~AYS: "If ~cklngham Palace is ~illlng to take him, that would Immediatel~ validate his st, at'us as a 8cod danci~ teacher." ROSS: "He might be a shotkln for Princess T~: "Z': af~ai~ hat we'~e doing out of this dlscusalon, humorous and othez,~Ise, is that whoever's watchln~ this must ~hin~ that public ~elati~s is a curious trade, indeed." ROSS: "~ve ~ou ever had an~ doubts about it?" TUBBY: "No, b~t much curious than in fact it is, ~d l thin~ it is more closer akin to advertising, to infox~at;oon, ~hat the p~ess a£ent~r~ gimmicks that we've been tal~in~ about, re- presents a very small and ~nai~niflcant p~rt of the ~bole business, and that we've gotten quite far away f~ its contributions as an a~enn~, as an aid, and we've gotten all tan@led up in how we stumble over ~u~ own feet and do foolish and idiotic thln~s because it does serve a useful function which I'm afire X~wln has shown in his bosE." ~S: "Wh~ don't we quicklT, if ~r. Suaskind la ~eeable, point out ~at a~ of ~se ~ef~ ~oad social ~tiona are. I wo~d sa~, f~st of all, a~ee~ with ~. ~der, eve~ ~sl~aa ~t w~ts ~ ~balat, ~r ~ non-p~flt ~ization t~t ~s to ~bslst, is ~ependent ~n its c~cide~e wi~h ~ ~bllc ~te~sta. U~esa ~ere ia t~t ee~ci~e~e, ~e people ~ ~eir ~t will aboli~ It ~e w~ t~ aboliah~ iAquor at ~ t~, o~ ~e ~y ~y abolia~d ~e ~Ii~ of ~. T~t ~dla~ly means t~t ever~ ~o~eea, and I co~ back to sere ~e public ~reat ~ its o~ private ~terest. "Now ver~ often men in business have such a atr~ng acquisitive sense because otherwiae-~and they're a~reasive--otherwlse tbe~ wouldn't be in business, they would become Suaskin~e or Irwin Rosses. Ver~ often..." TIFL 0521477 TMDA 2004328

"47- SUSSEIRD: "Philanthropists, 7ou mean." RO$~: "Philant~h~opists~ ~es. Every ~ou~naliet is a philsn- t2:u~ :~p Is t." ~%NAYS: "Very often these men don't recognize ~he impli- cation of the public interests relative to their private interests. ~ow what a public relations man can do, particularly in this complicated structure, this frame of reference of society, which is extremel~ complicated, a~d in vhich in the last analysis the public alva~s r~les, what these o~&anizations can profit from is advice and counsel on behavior that will conform to the public interest, az~ their private interest. "I have ~nown the l~rgest--vell, I can give 7~u an example. ~re dealt with one of the largest chain stores, an~ they showed me statistics one da~ that 8hewed that their market fell off in Western Pennsylvania, and they cottldn't u~erstan~ ~hy because all the indices ~ndicated that this was a prosperous part of the country, as prosperous as other places. An~ we sent s~mebedy o~t there, an~ we ~ound that for that particular area, t~ey had a Scotc~ Presbyterian industrial relations individual. ~ that this person, not because of an~ ~ will, s~l~ en~a~ed Scotch Presbyterians in the ~e~ positions in the area that he controls. ~t was not done because of il~ will, it was done because of m~opla. All we did was to advise t~at thla ~udividual be Instructed to maintain a policy of open covenant openl~ a~rived at and broad tolerance in t~e employment of people..." ROSS: "Well, a~e you augustine, ~r. ~ernays, that i~ ~ou were h~ed by ~e sou~ern s~a of t~a Union, ~t ~ou co~d ~et ~ather quick acquleacence ~ ~ S~ Co~t decision on a 8~ool 8e~e~ation ~oa~e 7ou w~d po~t out ~t t~s wo~d~ ~ ~ ~e public interest?~ BERNAYS: UNo, no. ThAs happens to be..." ROSS: =This would be even beyo~ ~our p~wers of persuasion?" • ERNAYS: "Well, aa a matter of fact, we have worked on the p~rtioular problem of..." ROSS: "I'm sure you have." TIFL 0521478 TMDA 2004329

BERNAYS: "...of Negroes and equallt~y; and 7ou're dealin~ there with an extraordinarily difficult problem that has to do with fol~ways, that has to do with overcompensatory inferiority, that has to do with tradition and political situations. No, what ROSS: "Theref.~re some pz, oblems &re not quite susceptible to this therapy, in othe~ words." ~RNA~S: ~WeLI, I'm sayin~ n~ that in this pa~tlcular case, this chain sto~e retained us to advise them and they took our advice. I can think of companies that might not take the advice. But, the point I'm maktu~ is that in this particular case, public relations had to do with social o~lentatlon, with the profit motive, an~ with the public interest. "We had a case a few days ago in which a company is interested in ae~vlr~ the public interest on a broad distribution in trans- portation matters. H~wever, the c:m~eti~ive interests com~etin~ with them are so peat that there is the problem en the i~ part of actua!l~ coming out publicly to serve the public interests and their private interests. "Now, at this time they say to us, what--how should we handle this problem of working to meet a social goal in terms of tr=n=- portation for the public without layln~ o~reelves open to the situation of possibly be~-~ destroyed by our competitors if ~e come out openly for that situation? "Now to me that is an ideal situation f~r study, evaluation and advice..." ROSS: "It ma~ be the social interests will be served by the extinction of your client. What would ~ou do i~ 'such a thln~..." SUSSEIND: "I w~uld hate to think of such a possibility, because it stri~es at the heart of public relations. TUBBY: "Well, Z think it would be gOOd.M ROSS: "It also strikes at the heart of the p~etentiona of public relations." SUSSKZ~D: "~nat in succinct summary, ~r. TubbN, would you regard as the positive contribution of public relations information?" TIFL 0521479 TMDA 2004330

"49- TURHY: "~:ell, of course, Mr. Be~n~ys and Mr. Ru~er have tsl~ed about it from their point of view, selling go~a, selling merchandise, making s profit..." ~RNAYS: "Social action." TUBBY: "Social action. X have ~een in newspaper work, I have been in information w~rk; and from m~ point of view the positive side on information is to tell as accurately as you know how what's going on in a government agency, ~hether it's from the villa~e level, school board, on up. And to tell it as fully as you ~now how, as Xrwin mentioned earlier, in the beg~nnlnE of the program and it's so difficult for any newspaper--even The New York Times--to c~ne close to/coverln~ the agencies in Washington, coverin~ them fully and thoroughly, and far more so for smaller newspapers llke The Post, not to mention the Adirondack Daily Enterprise. ~ut even we in cur little community have trouble coveriA~g adequately the various governmental agencies in our own and eurroundin$ towns. "So, Z think that fro~ a positive point of view and a useful and a necessary point of view, public relations people or ~nror- m~tlon people can and should tell the stories fairly and honestly, and not try to-~where they ~et into trouble and ~here it's wrong and vhere the~ are open to criticism, a valid, sharp criticism- is ~here they deliberately lie, deliberately distort, and it ~ay not only be the public relations people, to come bao~ to the bigger bang for the buck, and all that, liberatln~ the 88tellitee, all the unfortunate business that we had. But mostly it's positive, ~ostly it's good and moatl~ it's useful, cr~should be." RUD£~: "Co~iz~ back to Mr. Bern~ys point, if I can. The concept that public relations work involves a two-way street, I think ia the fundamental problem here, and Z'~ au~e with a lot of people it does involve a tw~-way street. But, Z think if you do ~'our Job conscientiously a~ effectively, 7ou're doin~ several thln~s simultaneously. "Zn the first place you're acting as a technician in the com- municatlons field. And the l~roblem of communications today, you have an organization, an institution, a client, or what have 7ou; and then you have a huge public, or man~ different kinds of publics. And then in between this client and these publics you have all kinds of specialized bodies, third party people who can give endorsement TIFL 0521480 TMDA 2004331

o~ who l~ve ~eohnlq~es of ¢~untca~ons at thei~ dla~osal. 0~ o~ ~e c~a~ts o~ public ~la~tons Is to ~ able to be a k~d o~ a ~11 ~e~ e~a~ a l~r ~e~ ~ ~ of l~o~tion and ~ ~o~ client, a~ to wh~ ~ou want to get ~o~tion, ~ou ~ how you ~et ~o~tion to you~ ~o~e, ~ ~eligt~s ~ps, o~ pro~essio~l ~o~s o~ ~t ~ve ~. ~is Is a o~icatio~ c~t. "~ut, in addition to that, if 7ou*re practicing public ~elations the ~i~ht war, it seem~ to me that 7ou help ~ke polio7 wt~ yo~ client, to ~OW t~t cllent~ ~ou~ve ~ot ~ ~ow w~ ~s objectives ~e~ 7ou also ~ve to ~ w~t has to do buslne•s with a~e. a~d somehow o~ otl~r, you've 8or to ~et those two t]:~.~8 to~ethe~. "And if 7ou can do the ~ig~t Job of lnte~p~etlng one to the othe~--an~ believe me, 7ou'~e not goiz~ to be able to •ell either one of them, the client o~ the public, something that's funds- mentall7 bad fo~" them. A~d t~is i~ the ~a~iftoent ~ynthesis that'• involved in this thin~, to ~ln~ ~hate• go~ fo~ both of ~hem, and to-get ~hem together; a~d then to use the ~pecific craft of communlcation~ to acoo~lish that." SUSS~Z~D: 'F~. ~ez~aTs, anot~e~ thiz~ Ied li~e to ask 7ou about, 7ou've been credited with hav£v~ invented started the award, ~e ~et ~ so forth, a~ publi~ ~e~ti~s device. Without see~ ~e most av~ici~ ~ve ~d mo~ a~ d~s ~ ~e~ hono~, ~ plaque• on ~e~ "You have a lot 7ou~sel~, haven't 7ou?" ~ou have?" 5U~E~i~: SWell, a• • :site: of fact, ~ have vet7 few aWL~S to date." TIFL 0521481 TMDA 2004

EER~AYS: "Well, maybe we ca~ ax~ran~e for one." ROSS: "you should have a press a[ent instead of a public relations counselor." SUSS~IRD: "Well, I am not on ~ERNAYS: "He's hie o,,n~ best ~blic relations counsel." SUSSK~FD: ~hat I'd like to kn~w is whether or not this honorary banquet, this award ~ivin~ hasn't been really abused, and whether it isn't ~Ind of a subterfuge to cover all of the malice, all of the things and so forth, whether they are not seemln~l~ swept awa~ b~ a dinner at the Waldorf Astoria's Grand Ballroom, to which men a~e commandeered st $~0 a seat c~ $i00 to render homage unto Caesar? Hasn't this been, ~hi8 invention of ~~rs, been oriticall~ ab~aed?" ~F~R~AYS: "Well, first of all, let me say, that banquets were given as far back, as I recall, to the time of the R~nans..." ROSS: "It's • loz~ recall, ~RRAYS: ?From mp history lessons, obviously. I would say ~ther ~t ~ a socie~ llke ~s, s~ial approbation as a basis fo~ e~olal ~e, as a sociologist wo~d sa~ It, ve~ potent factor ~ ~evel~ ~e t~e ~f social you tal~d about. ~ we a~rt wi~ ~ as~tlon t~t ~ople follow o~er pe~ple, ~ you c~ ~ke val~s in ~e aocle~ ~ ~ort~t a~ to t~n credit ~oae v~s ~ ~vi~ ~ ~era of the person who ~s developed or ~eated a elation Eive credit to h~, ~ou develop a foll~ ~e leader polic~ ~t ~ort~t ele~nt ~ ac~lerat~ a~l ~e t~da soci~ v~ue8." ROSS: ~Well, haven't ~x~uets been ~R~AYS: "Well, I would say banquets--well, obviously an~thin~ in eociet~y is abused. The law is abused, medicine is abused, pornography--or let's sa~ naturalism--is abused..." ROSS: "You mean ~ou're for decent 5ERNAYS: "NO." TMDA 2004333

-52- "What Z wonder about, Hz,. Bermays~ foe ~YS: "I wou~ be ewe that to~ay--IIvo known of cases ~here men ~ive banquets to themselves. Ym other words, they will arrange with s~ody who t~y ~ed to get 8 e~ittee t~e~e~ and this eo~ttee will th~ pick out a favorite eha~ity. ~act~ ~ Ne~ Yo~k City to~ay~ as a ~tter of ~te~est, the~e ~ a ~n, ~ l~m 8~e you ~o~ him ~e, who ~keo ~a liv~ si~;ly ar~~ b~quets, hav~ a l~t, devetop~ • c~ttee. ~ave you ever ~un across ROSS: "No, no, no. in m~ honor, pet." not old enough to have a banquet BERNAYS: "Well, maybe your publishers can arrange it..." SUSSKIND: "l w~nder, for example..." RUD~x "But you know, to take smother phase of the same problem, for the moment, we have had eLiants who com~ to us said, we'd tore to win an award, Just love it. Maybe you fellows can arrange it. And it is pretty eim~le to arrange. There a~e all kinds of guys who will set ~ a phoney ava~d for ~ou; and you~have to do-is pay for it. ADd it was a very te~t~ kind of a thin~ to do. You knov, take the easy path ~qNAYS: "They did that in faahlons..,e RUD~: "Fashlons, ~md they got caught B.,~'~.A'~A~S: "...on Fifth Avenue?" R~z "Aud they ~ot caught and, inei~entally, ea~ae~ a their clients t~emendous emba~assment, and pro~e~y ~." BERNAY~: "~ho had gotten those awards." RUDER: "But, what you can do is when your ellent acmes to you and says, ewe would llke to have an sward,' it seems to me you have am obligation to ~ook st ~hat he wants an award ~or, amd say it's not worth an award,s ROSS: "In other words, you have an o~tigatlau to be prudemt?" TIFL 0521483 TMDA 2004334

R~D]~: "To be honest ~th 3'ou~ client, end with yourself, and it's not vorth an awa~.~. So then, i.f you look at ss~ well perhaps it £s youth an m~a~d, let's look at all the people who give awa~s f~ these kinds of th~nZs and submit sto~y to BERNA_vss "It's what's done with Pulltse~s. It's even done with Nobel--wlth the Nobel p:'Ise." RUDER: "A~l~ht. Nov, vhe~ ~ou do this ~ou might ewe u~ with an a~az~; or bette~ ~et, if the p~o~u~t o~ the client o~ the person doesn't deserve such sn awaY, in the shoppln~ In-ocedu~e, if ~ do this h~estl~ ~ rill be told, 'Fo~ ~'s s~e, ~, ~u~ ~zy~ ~ h~e s ~y.t In whleh case, If ~ perf~ t~ pro~er t~w~ ~otl~ he~e, ~ t~l the o~lent, I t~t It tell me ~m c~. ~ here is the be~t$~ eh~e to th~ s~t ~th the client ~ ~ to eo~eet the sit~tt~ so ~ the ~ is so ~e~ ~o~t~t to ~, let h~ w~ f~ it." SUSSEIND: "I'm afraid to pu=sue thls line of inquiry because Z'm nervous at n~ last illusion beln~ shattered, namely, to discover that the NAss Rhetn~o~ contest is B~AY~: ~No • no, that I ~u~d dour. ~." honest?" B~l~Y~ "I ~uld th~nk that is re,hr." ROSS: "That I don't kn~ anything about." SUSSKI~s "Donna Bain e~ ~hate~e~ her name is, she yon faL~ and s quaA-e ?" B~YSs "Let me be vet7 specific. Supposin~ ~u wanted the Legion of H~ner and ~ou felt that that would satisf~ fox,st hopes. T~u :l~ht get a Legion of Hence, L¢ fo~ t~ next five ~s ~ ~tl~ ~ t~ ~t~ats of F~ee; ~ the ~gi~ ef H~ e~ e~ te ~ net ~e the ~le ~latl~s ~ h~ ~h~ to do with gett~ It got the ~lee that ~ sho~ Jo~ a F~o~e~le~ t~t pou sho~ t~e the q~It~es of le~e~shlp llk~ ~ee ~ ~ do, ~ w~k, let TIFL 0521484 TMDA 2004335

reciprocal relati~nshlps im terms of tra~e between l~ance the U~t~ States. ~, ~u ~ not ~t that ~. effectively t~t ~u wo~d get t~ TUBBY: UCan't y~u recall anp other instances, Mm. Be~n~s, where a~ar~s have been gotten thr~A~h s~mewhat less st-A-enous e£forts?" BI~AYS: "Well, I w~uld TUBBY: "Well, you ment$~ned the Pulitser Pmlse en~ th~ Nobel P~ize. I mean, these a~e all." B~NAYS: "I would sa~ that if 7ou write the best bio~r~phy or if yo~ write the best histor~r the ass--Ttion is that 3~u vlll get a Pu.litzer swar~." ROSS: surge st." "Well, thatts sort of vaulting ass,~mptien, Z vould SUSS~HD: ~nat mnnses me c~ently--It ~emtalns to m7 own p~-~fessi~no Notice i u~e the m~rd pmofesalon." B~NAYS: ~You mean Emma's an~ all that sc:t of thin~?" SUSSI~ND: "I netic~ that at a point at where bz~a~castlz~ is perhaps at ~ne of its lowest ebbs, rose of ~ lea~ers of breadcastlx~ is plekin~ up mo~e B~AYS: "Who is a leader of br~adeastlng sa~, ~tside ~f you?" SUSSKI~D: "who is a lea~er of broadcasting? Well; the ~etwork chiefs ame ostenslbly..." B~AYS: "I w~uldn't a~ the~ a~e lea~ers te4~. they have vemlgate4..." SUSSEIRD: "But, at this very moment you will fx~m some remote hamlet of Minnesota read that one of these gentlemen has Just been glyen the Sons ~ Lovers Aw~'~ motherhood, the B~y Scouts azM so forth, b~ his a~v~eacy cf educational televtsl~n, which is not what his network ;~resents." TIFL 0521485 TMDA 2004336

B]~NAYS~ ~1"hose ~re the same a~ventitious sttuatlons that you f'tr~ in the aws.~lng of h~mo~'az'7 de~.ees, there's a famous stor~ that they tell at Yale Vhloh--oh, this was s~ne yea~s a~o." ROS~: "Yale vas one of ~ clients?" B~J~AYS: "Yale?" ROSS: "Yale was never a ellent?' BI~tNAYS: sBo, Yale was never a client. I talked at Yale, but Yale wasn't a ollent. Yale wante~ to get money from O. P. Morgan the elder, and so~eboo~y said, veil, the only wa~ you get that is to give him a honorary Ph.D. So they gave M~. J. PSe~- pont Norgan an honorary Ph.D., and the next da~ they c~ly got a check f~r $100,000. N~w, that--from I~,. MOrgan. N~w, that sltuatl~m, X would say, does happen in the Unite~ States in certain areas. Xt certainly doosn~t happen at Harvard, and Z w~d doubt since that has happened, it w~d be b~ppaning--s~nee t;me Morgan lncldent--lt would be happen_~ at Yale. "But, ver~ often ~x~a'll flx~ that the~e all kinds of ~al or ~-,~oral equivalents, as Oemes onoe said, the mo~al equlvalent is Iost~ that might b~Ing about s~a~s. Z know a case where a :an ~ave a oertaln unlvevslty a lot of tunney an~ he got an honors=It de~ree. ~ell that does he, pen." T~BBY: ~gell, I'm sort of :e~ed of--thls is a sheet storT. ~e put a ~eat de~ of ~basis relatlons--a sto~ ~ a little dog--a ~ ~ a llttle dog, the fath~ s~d, 'Vell n~ d~t ~ d~s ~ ~:s, t~ b~ ~ ~t ~se~ ~.' ~ the pupp~ f~ s~e fo~ $~0,~; ~ the fath~ e~ ~e ~a~ ~t ~d the sl~ w~ d~ ~d ~ w~t ~ to see t~ l~ttle b~ ~ '~t ~~, did ~ se~ t~ dog?' "And he Said, 'Well, Z got a $25,000 oat.' So, X think that scmetimes--m~yb_ e .it wasn't a ver~ f~nmy Ste~'y but X think that ac~net ~mes. o." SUSSKI~: "I think you Just lost the punch.line." TIFL 0521486 TMDA 2004337

-56- think in exa~Kerate~ torsns fo~ so~vlces that 8~e rendered." S~S~: =I rendered tmfo~e--ssklng 3~t each f~ a s~ ~ t~i~t. Z'd II~ to a~k 7~ this: ~, Ross, ~ y~ boo~ y~ ~ke the po~t ~te~ s~~ the v~l~ ~ ~h~ts, the ~llc ~elatl~ co~selo~s..." give u~ to that title, s t.~'.w SU~SEI17D: "...a~te~ exmntng the ~ublio .a-elation ~u se~ to ~e this po~t, ~t t~e ~1 a bit Y~ s~ of ~. S~b~K~ a vo~ f~ ~blio ~olatl~ that ~ d~essos ~ a Viot~i~ m~ he lives ~ a ~ house ~ the ~t Side, ~ Is ~ to heap. ~ ~s cll~ts eve~h~. ~ l~lea to t~a~ tickets." ROSS: "I dl~°t make the flx'st polnt. ~heat~e tickets SUSSKIND: wOh, wel~ I ~eoall you said a client called up, he said, 'Would ~you llke g~rlsO--well, ~es, ~ ~i~t, I'~ d~p t~t. ~n ~u c~ to ~. ~s ~ ~ s~ t~t ~ Is am gift~ ~ ~ t~ w~ of rhot~io, t~t ~°s a ROSS: ~Ha~ an example of that tonight.." ~Ho~ ~ ~ou explain the_~u~t-off-the-ne¢~ aspect ef all of these men that ~u ~es~ibe?" " ROSS: eWell, I think, I think aXl these men ~re salesmen, and I don't think the ~ saleemen is a peJ~ittve te~. I th~k they ~ke v~ a~e~s to v~ cli~ts. I t~ e~h ~ t~ s~cess~ ~lic ~lati~ f~ ~s ~ ~e, e~sci~sly or ~c~ci~sly ~eat~ ~ its ~. "I suggest in m~ boo~ that Ben Sennenberg epeol~allse~ in t~ ~ ~s ~e ~ duzl~ ~l~t8. I ~ested t~t ~. Be~s,~o is ~. 8~~g s s~o~ ~ the t~e, speci~is~s TMDA 2004338

in tmprssstn~ clients with hie soctologic~l obse~*vatlons. I ~est~ t~t C~I ~ ~ ~s~ates sp~l~ls~ ~ a k~ of a ~ ~iv~ n~n~ense ~es~t-Eett~ ~bl~ci~-blitz I s~este~ t~t H~I ~d ~lt~ ele~ate~ deco~ of its offices mmnnter. I su~este~ that Earl Newseme got much benefit f~m the pictures, both of L~uooln ~n~ of Lear,ned Hand tn his office, ~ ha& both a Lineolniau a~ Handien mmme:, about him, ~y he~s a ve~3 sh~ew~ ~ellow." ~I~!~: "Nobo~ Is gO£n~ to rel~ the book.e ROSS: "AnD I su~geste~ that BIll Ru~er ~n~ Dave Finn were no-nonsense guts with..°" RUDe: ~Did ~u sat nonsense?" ROSS: "No-nonsense ~u~s.~ RUDER: "Thank ROSS: "...with considerable--with a genuine, I tb~-~, interest In ethics, but an equAdX~ genuine capacity, which all of us shoe, of a~ ,elf-~eceptIon. The.point ls~ I think that we all--we all--I~m not in the bustnes,... B~%WAYS~ "I th~nk th~s ie eelf-identificatlen." ROSS: "Tou eenOt w~Ite with an7 medium meuu~e ~ ~eess, ~. ~7s, without ld~t~ ~th t~ foibles of ~e's s~Ject. I ~ ~el~ 8~est thee ~e differ ~es of clients to ~tch t~se v~t~ t~s ~es the ~u ~ see t~8 ~e ~ d~apl~. X ~ it's a fuo~t~ ~ese u s o~~e. "I have~"t been uked fro. a suzmm~.sing remark b~t I'm q~Ite capable ~f givL~ it to ~ n~w. I a~-ee with R~g~ ~b~ that p~e ~ ~e is that it helps ~e the l~m ~I f~ t~t. I ~$e~~t ~ t~ ~et~e~ ~tioes ~t ~l~h we ~ ~ ~e~I b~le~ ~e ~ ~ ~a~st ~blle relatl~s, t~tts t~ c~t ~ t~ p~et~tl~ss ~l~c relati~. I t~ ~l~e ~latl~ e~ael~s ~e ~ates an open so~tetT. I th~nk the l~etense of z~x~e than that, that p~eten~s to an msniscienee which oen identify the client's specialise~ TIFL 0521488 TMDA 2004339

Interest ~Ith the l~Ibli¢ Lutarsst is p~haps a bit too vmiltlng, an~ open: the public ~elatlona oounselo~ ~ the press a~ent to c~Itlci~n. That's baslcall7 .m7 case," RUD~: "Zr~, Z don't mlz~ belz~ called an ~ate at ~I, ~ this Is f~e ~th ~ pr~t~ t~t--~ If we ~I were ~v~ates X th~k it wo~d be w~~, but Z d~t th~ we ~e. ~ ~e of the thins ab~t t~.~s~ess t~t ~i~tens me Is that not ~nou~h~ of us ~e a~v~ates. ~t we seek te acerbate, ~ o~7 to accosts. ~d that, I theM, Is a ve~ ~th~ the, ~ a potenti~17 d~e~ous thi~ ~ ~ soele~..." TUBBY: "In order to set a~d ho.~d ~ accounts, right?" RUDER: "Yes TUBBY: "In b~er to get and hel~ accounts." RUD~: ~ct on17 that ~stltutl~ m~ely to w~t to please. ~ ~o ~at th~ thl~ will be ~1 rl~t, to do ~hat the~ thi~ will avoid e~llct, avoid ~el, avoid dlscussl~; ~t J~t to be ~le to re~ k~d of b.enl~, ~ost ~~. ~ I th~ oneo~ the most ~e~ ~ctlo~ ~t people llke. ~selves c~p~ Is to t~ %0 have ol~ents ~erat~ ~t th~ wo~ l~ke to be, ~ then to ~e ~esalve ~d ~Ic steps ~ ~er to be t~t, e~alst,-~t, wlth ~. ~~'s po~ts, t~t It's a ~o~.w~ e~et. This h~ to. be it, But so ~t~ I th~ public ~elati~s re~ly w~d llke to ~ve a ~ o~ ~~ty--~ost, ~ X ~on't th~ ~th the k~ el--excuse ~ for be~ pretenti~, the k~ of ~Id s~e that we ~ve t~ t~t the t~s t~t we st~ for e~ ~f~ to ~ ~~~.~. TUBSY: "1 void like to Just folle~ andpiek.up that last point, the k~d of v~l~ st~le we ~ve t~. X th~ that h~e ~together too ~ch apat~, toe ~h e~lae~e~, t~ ~at a lack of ~erst~~ ~ the w~I4 ~ ~ich we llve, too ~cb ~hasls ~ the ~t~l~, ~ the ple~able th~s of l~e. ~ls ta ~so s ~lte ~eltal~s ~tl~--p~pa not ~ ~ f~s, but f~ e.~ebo~, per~ps ~ ~ve~t--to tellthe st~ of o~ ~ld as it is, not to ~tty ~tt ~. I ~Ink ~e'a trip to ~[a ~ to Asia Is ~ so f~ U It ~es, ~t tt l~'t basic~17 e~i~ o~ polio7 o~ o~ positt~ of st~e~h vis- a-vie the ~sl~s o~ ~ ~eee. So X th~ t~t we~vegot public relations people, at least in gove/nment--az~ this is" where I al~Ply ~self again Lu concluslo,~--have got to sti~ the TIFL 0521489 TMDA 2004340

"59 o interest and su~po~t in o~ democracy and unde~stand~ of what goverxnnent is all about, the Ne~ York Times yeste~a~, Hanson Bald~d~n had an a~tlcle •bout--it isn't really new, but the shock- i~ lack of understand~n~ of people who a~e oalle~ t~ fen so.vice, abo~t the Constitution, about the oo~nt~, their p~SlOL~ f~abbt- hess, their, mental flabbiness. An~ for 0od*s sake, we do~n the dr•in because of this ~autal--ph~sical flabbiness and emphasis on the material, the pleutu'•ble. £n~ s~nsbody in public relations, or in you~ field and mine, I~vln, in the In.ess, maybe one of o~ leaders, ~be • Rockefeller, maybe • maybe • Stevenson or several of them, ought to be etLr~Lr~ us up." SUSSKY~D: ~. Be~naTs." BERNAYS: "I would dlsa~.ee with whoever sa~s that public relations is prLm~lly advocacy, k~en we get into • situation, and the o~.ient retains us, ve tell the client that we will give the client an objective counsel o~ advice on ho~ the client meet his social objectives mo~e effectively. No~ if we were Just advocates we w~uld only ~ive the client advice that would be based on proJect~ the client s ai_m~a, ideas, products o~ services. The very fact that we a~e objective advisors enables usAassuming tha~ the fee is large enough, bee•use if y~u accept the F~eudian thesis that you need • ce~t•ln a~ount of pain in cinder..." ROSS: "You mean paiZ~al for yOU to reeelve • fee?" B~NAYS: "No, painful to the o~lent." ROSS: WAh, th~nk yot~ fo~ the c~eotio~,w B~KAYS: "~f he has enou~ pain he viii accept ~ advice which he ml~h~ not accept. ~ ROSS: "Does he go to_you five tithes • week o~ s~x tines • week llke in thm old da~8?w ~]~NA~S: "Xt w~ depe~ ~bether be f~netlens ~ telephone ROSS: "Xt a~ao depends on Vhethe~ 7o~*re ;m~me fo~ the week- en~ or act. ~t, 7c~ kate, ~. ]~_NAYS: "~ell, he's at liberty to call me veeke~s,~..~ ROS.~: "Oh, X'm ~ellghted to hear that." B~NA~Ss *...~nder certain circumstances, but... TIFL 0521490 TMDA 200434

RUDER: ~qr. Bernays, one of the differences between the of us, if I might Inter~,upt--althoug~_ I think f~xndamentally we ag~ree--Is that I include a~vocacy..." BYI~AYS: "Well, a~vocacy, obviously is Inclu~e~ if the ac~o- cacy ~s pre~cate~ on a ~elnci~ence of the p~Ivate ~ t~ ~bllc ~t~est. If the ~oc~y, fo~ Inst~ce, w~ be t~ ~slst ~ a n~e h~ ~a~ ~ ~ ei~t h~ was the ~blle ~t~est e~cept I'~ Just s~, SWell, X'm te~Ibly so~, y~ better get s~eb~y else to ~lae y~,~ ~ RUDER: ~Yes, but within the areas with which ~ou an~ your clients a~z'ee..." BERI~AYS: w~t o a right." RUDER: "...X thLuk it is i~pertant to be an a~vocate, an~ I think lice fun to be an advocate. An~ thatts p~rt of t~e rea- son why I enjoy mY tazsiness. And there are public relatlzms flx-ms set up, for instance, some of the~ on the basis of pu~e counsel an~ others of them on the basis of both eotmsel and operations..." ROSS: "You ~o operatle~s." RUDER: "And it's the operation ftm of the public relations." ROSS: "Yo~ do both a~vocacy an~ thera;~ at the same t~me:" RUDER: "No, we do both counsel and advocacy. We do both counsel an~ operations." "You do a~vlce az~ Imp!eme~tatlon." ~.A~S: ,,,~ we do on~ a~vlce." RUD/~R: "Correct. An~ X think that ispart of the f'~n,w ROSS: ~l'nat Ls em-eoctlve therapy ca ~ part.' RUDe: "What ~ wf.ll. Part o~ the fun of the business is when 7ou can take the kinds of ideas that ~ou and ~ client have been able to-a~ree on, and then actually earr~ them out. An~, to me, Ires enormously satlaf~Ing kln~ of a thLug." B~NAYS: ~Well, I'd m~b rather, ve~ frankly, I ~mmld m~cb rathe~ have the silent oar~ out--let's say we reoomme~ ane Ig~t TIFL 0521491 TMDA 2004342

-61- hour day or we res~en~ a policy--let's say £f It*s a hotel chain, ~f they want to e~e th~ ~tees~ of gtv~ a ~e~ ~et~oactlvel~ fo~ a week before the ~ice cha-~e Is ~~ced; If it's a big b~k, to ~di~ the~z wh~le appr~h to the ~ eon~e ¢~d~t. We feel that ~t the eliot tn ~lea ne~s t~a~ Is advice ~d ee~sel~ ~ hew to de~ with the ~blte ~athe~ th~ advice ~ e~cel ~d ~lementat~ of t~t ~viee. ~e fi~ that most co~atl~ t~a~ have ~lie ~elatl~e dep~t- ments, t~p have vlee p~estdents ~ c~ge ef p~l~e ~elations, the~ ~ve p~eeid~ts ~o ~e th~elves--bee~ public ~elati~s people." ROSn: "Don~'t you think that ~hat it requi!.es basically, it needs ddep therapy, F~r. Berne, s?" B~R~AYS: therapy, o." ~gell, it would all depend on hew ~u defino deep RUDER: ~ de~'t ~u fellows en the p~es8 ~ho are subject to all this stuff that we in In~ust~ and people in ~vernment are oper at tu~..." RUDER~ u...and tn the publio relations f~.eld wh~ fell~s ~ the ~eas ~et ~ ~ ~o~ h~ legs, ~Ith th~s H~t~ ~ess t~t F~ t~ke~ ab~t belie--the press ~.~ e~tly ~at w~ go~ ~, w~ di~'t a~eb~ TUBBY: WThe~ ~Id • = ROSS~ "Well, m~ dear fellow, we have said so. The New York Post did a series en Eaggerty. Even Time ha~ a cover stor~ on Hag~erty." RUDER: "Bast you dldn~t do it at the time of the et~rT." ROSS: "Oh. Row, I thlnk--Bill, Z eoul~n't a~ree wlth_~u more. As a matter of fact to su~Eest a personal reference." 3~'~:S: ~This is sc~me refar~ee." ROSS: ~Yes, i end ~y book with that staten~nt. ~t, I think that in terms o~ what we ~ a~ee ~ s~ of the disa- bil~ties, some of the ~e--more th~ mlstakes, s~e of the ~evi~s ~s of ~lic relati~, t~t the th~a~ Is ~ t~ h~ds of the press, t~t ev~ ~J~ 8t~ ~Ich ~w~s ~s a public relative ~e, 8ho~d be cover~ with t~ ~blic relati~s TIFL 0521492 TMDA 2004343

-62- ~mension ~n view, that the reporter should c~ne out an~ sa~ that this is the st~lfic~oe of the action that has been taken, this is why Z am a~ainst deadpan report~ s~-oalle~ objective RUDER: "Z a~ee. You a~e absolutel7 right in that Z da~e- sa~ the New York Timem was the carol7 newspaper in the United States this mornir~ to talk about the ~o~ncidence of Bensen~s l~nlnent resi~nation an~ the election ~n Z~a next Tuesday. There pro- babl~ was ne other pape~ ~u the country who said that.~ ROSS: "~ell, the New Yo~k Post eould ha~l~ have d~ne it because we ~dn*t appea~ ~n Sun~•~." B~P~AYS: ~Do y~u k~o~ that to~y, one of the fasc~nating thtn~ to me, is one of the most ~nterestix~ histories of bio- ~aphies that Ztve rea~ ~'ecently Is~ a b~k by ~o~n ~u~ of Yale ~u ~h~oh he ~rrltes • blo~l.aph~ of Ttuault~ ~ho van the se~eta~-y. B~AYS: "...~n ter~s of public ~'elations. And you viii £1nd histo~ be~ ~e~ltt~ ~ te~ of t~ attires ~ t~ acti~ of the p~s~ ~itt~ •bout ~elative to the public ~act ~ the ~ll~ ~e t~t ~ ~ts to establl~. ~ Z ~d ~ a~ee ~th D~el ~~ ~ the ~iv~ai~ of ~Ic~ ~o le edlt~ of thet~ Unlv~sit~ of ~e~ ~ess b~ks ~ ~st~ ~ he sal~ t~t ~ ffels t~t the e~neept ~ ~blie ~elatl~s ne~ ~elati~shi~ ~ the le~e~ to e~tet~ t~ le t~ ~elat~shi~ of reco~Iz~ the fe~b~k ~ the ~l~e ~ a b~le el~t ~he ~ete~t~ ef attit~ea of pollelas ~ ~ ~tl~." RUDERz =The danger is that the~e is a pelnt 'of dln~tnlsh _~ returns. A point he oar beo~e • foll~e? an~ not a leade~... = B~AYS: ~T~at Is right." RUD~Rz "...if he is not easeful,w B~YS: ~E~t if he is a real lea~e~ he will be able, as Ross said formerly, to v~k th~s tl~t~e of lea~ers~p ~ ~em~c~ac~ ~he~e ~ ~e to ~ve l~e~e ~ at t~ a~ t~e to p~atic ~ ma~t~n s~fl~ient ~ y~ p~lle to ass~e t~ RUDe| "And Incldentall~, I think that you fello~s ~n the 0521493 TMDA 2004344

-63- newspapers 8~e the 8~eatest salesmen that we have because ~u co~ p~rate llfe t~ay a eo~orati~ Is e~os~ to the p~ss ~ ~I of the probl~s t~t ~ou fello~s ~ve ~ te~s ~f yo~ ~ ~e~llnes, so f~th~ Is oft~ ~at ~*~es ellents fo~ us bec~e ~, ~ l th~k there's a ~~lty ~e betveen you ~d ~, ~ t~t we c~ help y~ get the most t~a~i~ ~ most ~o~atel~ ~h the least ~o~t ef ~lffie~t~." ROSS: "And often the press is ~naeh too £ndep_a~_~_ent on relations; but that would require another proem, Mr. Susskind, devoted to the l~'ess, lie8 a little late ~KI"N'Dz eWhich I'd be delighted to aehedule. Z thLuk both of you~ p~ofesslons a~e fa~ better off than ~Ane. One of ~ p~ofessl~us~ as yma su~este~." 'B~AYS: "Oh, X thlz~k you'1,e Just ~mnde~.u SUSSKlqTD: "...needs ps~htatr~ an~ the other, needs t~al~y an~ mine is in astute ~t~Ke~y at the B~AYS: "Oh no. I ~u~d sa~ you i~nite people ever~ ve~k ~ a ~epetitIve basi8, ~petiti~ ~ ~si8 b~ ~epetiti~ ~ repetiti~ ~ ~is. ~ I t~ that ~ the airport ~ self a publlo relatl~ oo~sel f~ ~tev~ o~oept ~ Ideu y~ ~ve~ ~ f~ately th~ ~e seei~l~ ~." ROSS: "I hope y~u ~ill etu-vl, e this distinction." SUS~: '~o~ flatte~ em~ p~ofesslon. I think the seda- tive is mo~e t~ieal," B~%NAYS: "Oh no." SU$SEZIqD: ",..of televisLon th~n en~b~sls. An~u~, I thank all of 7ou ve~, vez-y ~naeh fo~ makin~ a stlnnalatlen session. F~. Redger Tubby, ~. Ruder, you a~e the dlsttngulshed ~embe~s of the P~ess, and ~. Ross, ~n~ ~h~. ~e~-naTs. X thank 7~u fe~ this pr~em." TIFL 0521494 TMDA 2004345