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RADIO TV REPORTS. INC. 41 EAST 42NO STREET. NEW YORK. N. Y. 10017. 697-5100 FOR THE TOBACCO INSTITUTE, INC. PROGRAM BARRY FARBER SHOW STATION DATE OCTOBER 18, 1973 8:00 PM CITY NEW YORK KORNEGAY AND HALPRIN < < HOST: Horace Kornegay, what's the moral backstage on your side of the argument? You're fighting for not just the persistence of tobacco, across our town, there's been the expansion of the use of tobacco. There are bumper stickers in your home state and neighboring states that say "enjoy smoking tobacco products". Now after the Surgeon General delivered himself with his verdict, on the dangers of smoking, how in the world did you keep your game together? KORNEGAY: 4!el l, actual ly, Barry, let me say that as an official of the Tobacco Institute, in Washington, we're nvi. involved in sales or promotion or urging the use or non-use of tobacco, tobacco products. We are--and our function is, to serve as a trade association for the major cigarette manufacturers and manufacturers of other tobacco products throughout the country. We handle*Government relations program on both the national and local levels, and state levels, and we keep up with what's going on In the field of research. And I'm sure you know, a tremendous amount of research has gone on for many years in this area of smoking and health, and so that really is my function. Now to answer your question: Tobacco, of course, is probably America's oldest Industry, it's been here and saved the Jamestown colony, and I'm not going to give you my thirty minute speech on the history, and I say the illustrious history, of tobacco as it's related to the history of this country. I'll merely say In answer to your question that It's been around a long time, and many millions- of people enjoy its use, both in this country and abroad. There's tremendous economic factors involved when you have six hundred and twenty-five thousand farm families, who depend upon, either in whole or part, the growing of tobacco f o r a 1 i v4kl l hodd . G ~ osFICC0 _IN_,NEW VORK • OCTROIT • LOt ANOELES • W.•.iNINOTON. D. C. - NtW ENOLAND • CNICAOO

-2- Hundred thousand industrial workers, and the tremendous amount of tax that it pays is also an economic factor not only for the country or the citizens or for the Government itself. And so it--it is a consequential situation, and when challenged as it has been challenged, particularly since 1964, with the publication of the so-called--the report of the Surgeon General, there have been a lot of argument and a lot of debate about tobacco, the use of it. Of course, it was debated about prior to that time, it's been a source of controversy, and a subject of controversy, for--for a long time, for many, many years. So, with the number of people Involved, the fact that the use was so widespread, people obviously enjoy it or they wouldn't buy it, particularly at the price that some of them have to pay nowadays. So I say the best answer I can give you is to how the Industry has kept body and soul together. Plus the determination and conviction on the part of most of them that they were in an honest and legitimate business, an honorable business, as any merchant who manufactures a product for sale. And until something more definite really is known, they intend to stay in business. HOST: Before I introduce your adversary, I want to know if you're an optimist in the upcoming fight -- in the upcoming fight about the rights of non-smokers? KORNEGAY: Yes, I'm an optimist. I recognize the fact that this is a very substantial struggle, that the industry and many others are engaged in. But, I'm optimistic in the sense that if we can stick to thci facts, that is, the health facts, it's hard to argue agains-, emotionalism, you can't handle that sort of thing. But if we stick to the facts, the scientific facts, then on this issue, I have no wor,ry about debating in it. But, having served in the legislative body, I know that probably the majority of the legislation is passed as a result of emotionalism, and campaigns, and that sort of thing. (OVERTALK) That's where the problem Is for (UNINTELLIGiBLE). HOST: Emotionalism has been known to creep into radio ~ broadcasts from time to time, and I can't promise it's going ~ to stay out of this one. I'm Barry Farber(?). My partners ci for the br broadcast are Horace Kornegay, President of the Tobacco -0 Institute of Washington, D.C. He is dismayed at the prospect ra of smokers becoming social outcasts. Betty Carnes(?) will be the First Lady of the non-smokers coast to coast if not indeed Generalissimo of the Smokeless Panthers, if there were such a society, and don't be surprised if you get called worse than that as the battle unfolds across America. She's national Fundraising Chairman of the group called Action on Smoking and Health, ASH, "ASH".

-3- Seymour Halprin is an attorney, who founded and heads a group called Rights of Non-Smokers. In a minute, having performed these introductions, I'm going to let you ladies and gentlemen have a go at one another. First, have you ever seen a church plastered with milk and egg yolks, and that wanted to be that way? Explore the ruins of an ancient civilization, or had a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on a banana train? If you'd like to, will you let Four Winds take you to a fascinating strip of the planet Earth that has never properly been visited by North Americans? HOST: The clash--the clash is in the headlines right now, and the clash will be face to face in just about fifteen seconds. Headlines in the NEW YORK TIMES: Non-smoker Is winning right to clean indoor air. In the NEW YORK TIMES, the letters to the editors, why the smoker shouldn't become a social outcast. Horace Kornegay is the author of that letter, and my partners for the broadcast, Betty Carnes and Seymour Halprin, our featured players in the fight for what they call the rights of non-smokers Betty, you've heard Mr. Kornegay, what do find faulty in his approach? CARNES: I won't attempt to find fault--i would just like to bring to the attent:ion of the listeners this interesting fact: On May the 4th i Arizona, Governor signed a bill making into law no swoc!ng as In--confined spaces--elevators, buses, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) indoor theatres, concert halls, libraries, museums, art galleries. And prior to passage of that bill, when the bill was introduced into the State Senate, we had-- I've done a survey of eighteen thousand people in the state of Arizona, and less than a fuurth of the people in our state smoke. And when the Senators questioned my figures, I said look at your own group, you have thirty Senators, and only twenty- two of you smoke--twenty-two of you do not smoke, excuse me, twenty-two of you do not smoke, only eight of you smoke. And Senator Giss(?) got up on the floor of the Senate and puffed furiously away on his cigarette, that I hope to see this bill fail, this bill is defeated. This is an invasion of my personal privacy. Now that was April the 16th--March the 16th, and on April the 16th, Senator Giss was dead of a heart attack. Since then, another one of those eight Senators who smoked has died, another one, of a heart attack. So now in the State Senate, we have twenty-six Senators--twenty-four Senators who do not smoke, and only six who do. HOST: Horace Kornegay, I'm trying to rule as a solemn, a well meaning judge, is that fact, or is that emotionalism? v tu ~. ~ w ,a

-4- KORNEGAY: Well, I don't think there's any question about his facts. (OVERTALK) Certainly Arizona did pass a bill, I'm well aware of that. I'll simply add to it that we really haven't developed any controversy yet, because the tobacco industry does not take the position that people ought to smoke, in art galleries, on elevators, in churches, or in operating rooms, and places like that. Actually, I think the industry, and certainly-- takes a reasonable view that there are places where it's inappropriate to smoke. Just as it's inappropriate to do a lot of other things, to eat or to drink, that sort of thing. Our emphasis is that people ought to be thoughtful both to smokers and to non-smokers. And where there is a conflict, that every effort ought to be made to accommodate the comfort of both. For example, on airlines, although there's some complaint, about the administration of it probably more than anything else, think they've done a reasonably good job. Usually in trying to accommodate both the smoker and the non-smoker. There are people, I am sure, that are offended by the presence of tobacco smoke. We do not concede, and we think the facts are on our side, the argument that it's harmful to the health, but we do readily admit that there are some people who are offended by it, and it's just a matter of quantity, of course. Some a slight amount, maybe more with a large amount of smoke. But the point is, that we ought not to make the smoker socially unacceptable. We ought not to label him as a leper. We ought not to drive a division or a wedge between friends and families because one of them happens to enjoy smoking, and the other one happens to not like smoke. CARNES: Do you-mean enjoy, or is addicted to smoking? KORNEGAY: No, it's not addiction. (OVERTALK) No scientific, responsible publication--in fact, the Surgeon General said-- report itself says, Miss Carnes, that it's not an addiction, its an habituation. I'm not a scientist, so I don't know if I can give you the distinction between the two scientific terms. But, except to say the addiction, to a drug, for example, drugs -that are addictive, when you cease the use of them, then you have physical (OVERTALK) withdrawl symptoms, and you do not with tobacco have any physical withdrawl symptoms. Now, you may have some mental fatigue, and you may want to smoke, but you don't have any real physical withdrawl symptoms--symptoms. That as I understand it is the difference. So, it's not addictive in the sense that drugs are addictive. It's a custom, a habit, it's something that you do, you pop your fingernails, you smoke, and I think that most people who smoke enjoy smoking. I smoke, I enjoy smoking.

-5- CARNES: I enjoy not smoking. KORNEGAY: Well, that's (OVERTALK) the first thing I wanted to make clear, I respect it. (OVERTALK) HALPRIN: I don't want to follow the red herring that's been introduced. First, that cigarette smoking, and I correct that, smoking of any kind, is a health menace, or the red herring as far as' physiological addiction. There are more non-smokers in the United States than there are smokers. The fact that there are a number of smokers is because of the monies poured in to all kinds of advertising until Congress or an agency of the Government says keep that filth off television and the radio. And there is no cigarette advertising there. They then tried to introduce it through the smoking of little cigars, that was knocked out. Our position Is just this, and mine is: it's not going to hurt my health, if somebody gets in an elevator or on the streets, spits on me, but I don't like it. And as I walk into the subway each day, and I get that stink, it's not a smell, I get that stink of cigarette smoke, and I rush through, not ankle deep, the layer of cigarette butts in America beautiful, then I say I encourage by wearing a button that says, yes I do mind, other non-smokers to speak up and join me in crying out, it's time to end this. I want to talk about the cigarette industry that we inherited. This beautiful, historic industry. Well, Turkey has an industry, they didn't--greatly depend upon it. They were raising the poppies for heroin. So the Unite6 States thinks that's bad, and they subsidize now the opiu,, growers, and encourage them to raise another crop. Half 6he world Is starving, and we use our lands to raise tobacco, to c-eate the stink. I don't apologize for using the word stink, because before me I have cute little stickers with pictures of skunks. These are circulated by what-- the National Association of Doctors-Nurses, and they have cute little sayings saying--sayings on them, why should we smoke? We may think, but we're not idiots. HOST: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I've often had arguments with people who've covered the same revolution in foreign countries, where I was there at the same time, and I can't believe their perception of it when stacked up against my own. I've really seen (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Mr. Halprin, and I have (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to it. I'm not smoking right now, as a matter of fact, I smoke five cigarettes a day, six days a week. I'm kind of proud, of my control and the way I've cut down, so I'm really right in the middle of the no man's

-6- land between your two sides. But your emotionalism seems to me completely out of order. I don't have this emotion when I walk Into a New York City subway, into a room. I can smell smoke, now how come my--how come you and I are of the same species, we're both humans, how in the world can our perceptions be so different? You're all... HALPRIN: (OVERTALK) It makes my eyes water, it makes my nose run, and it makes my cough gasp--my throat raspy. Now if you ask if this is an unusual condition, let me talk to you on one of the health things. That when you burn paper alone, and have that smell, there's nothing worse than that when it comes into your nostrils. Particularly, when you say--when you go eat, where do you eat? If you're going into a restaurant, and thank God, tonight we had dinner at Roszak's(?), that's been in business for more than seventy-five years, they have opened the room, and it's going to increase their business. And they have a sign In their window: "We have a non-smoking room in here". Many times, not only did work in having the airlines segregate smokers (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Because Mr. Kornegay-- Kornegay has said that we didn't want to be second class citizens. A smoker is a second class citizen, the Interstate Commerce Commission...(OVERTALK)...the smoker is a second class citizen. (OVERTALK) HALPRIN: May I finish? Because when the Interstate Commerce Commission said that they're going to regulate smoking on interstate buses, they said to the smoker--go to the rear. That's the most undesirable part of the bus and not more than twenty percent of the capacity of seats. We mu.t remember this: that the cigarette industry now has recognized that they have something of a guilt complex, because the most recent advertising says, I take pleasure in smoking and I won't apologize for it. Their apolociy isn't expected to be for:hcoming because they're ill mannered to begin with. The World Health Organization has properly said, and the World Health Organization is an activity of the United Nations that is least controversial. They have said, it's not my words: smoking is a practice that should be limited to consenting adults in private. I don't object to anyone smoking; I.,don't want to breathe in the filth. Not that it affects my health, I don't like it. It's irritating, It's annoying... HOST: Your indignation--the reason I'm frowning, your Indignation is so intense, I wish I could borrow it to--in other evils...(OVERTALK) HALPRIN: Because we--we ignore it, because people are making (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of it. Now let me tell you something... HOST: Just a minute, just a minute sir, you've spoken quite some time, and Mr. Kornegay would like to respond, in a minute it'll be his turn. First:

-7- HOST: 1'm Barry Farber, and there's a rare--1 thought it was extinct--hormone crackling over the broadcast table right now. It's indignation without disagreement. (LAUGHTER) We've had plenty of disagreement without indignation, but we have here a pure culture case of indignation without disagreement. I've never heard more exciting indignation than came just now from Seymour Halprin, attorney, who heads a New York group called Rights of Non-Smokers, who is promotionally endorsed and vocally endorsed by Betty Carnes, champion of the non-smokers, and national foundation Chairman of Action on Smoking and Health, that's A.S.H., and what 1 don't think Horace Kornegay would agree to anything you've said, let's see. Horace Kornegay is President of the Tobacco Institute of Washington, D.C. KORNEGAY: i--I don't--1 agree with some of the things he said, but not the way he's characterized many things, including me and the tobacco industry, and anybody who happens to enjoy smoke. 1 am amazed, and 1 follow your thought that this is really a poor debate, because so far, there seems to be littie disagreement. Mr. Halprin says that--he doesn't argue with the fact that smoking doesn't hurt him, it's just that he doesn't like it. He doesn't like the smell of it, he doesn't like the odor of it, and so--and I conceded to begin witn that there were certain people who were offended by the presence of smoke. Now, he is the emotional type, and so this is--I started out with the premise that you can't argue with emotional people about smoking, about sex, about religion, about anything else. Because they just don't simply listen to reason. Now I don't quarrel with him. It is perfectly right to dislike smoke, tobacco, me, and anybody connected with it in any way, shape, or form. But I do want to correct the record on a few things he said. Number one, I want him to know, and I don't--I'm not insinuating he's misrepresented the facts, because it's a fact he probably didn't know. And that is he's talking about the Congress putting cigarette ads off of the air. Well, finally a law was passed that put them off, but he ought to know it was the tobacco industry that volunteered to go off the air, the entire industry, if Congress would extend antitrust exemptions to them, to avoid third party suits. And he says he's a lawyer and he'11 understand what 1 mean. Congress refused to do that... HALPRIN: I'm familiar with all that... KORNEGAY: ..and, that's right. Well, you tried to leave the impression that Congress--i say this, and I say it almost without fear of contradiction, that if the industry had severely cu

-8- fought that proposal, and the broadcasters had stood up for their rights, and I say that to other broadcasters, Barry, that-- we would still (UNINTELLIGIBLE) off the air. It was a legitimate product, and it had every legitimate argument to make to stay on and not be legislated off the air. The industry realized the compla.ints that were coming in, and in order to show a willingness to cooperate with the Congress,. and with its critics, and in the event there was anything to the argument that cigarette advertising encouraged young people to smoke, by that I mean teenageis and young people, to avoid that criticism, to back up the promise they made by adopting cigarette advertising code when they quit using celebrities and sports figures. They volunteered to go off. Now I think (UNINTELLIGIBLE) back at that time, that cigarette advertising was not aimed at the non-smokers, been borne out by the facts. We said that it was brand advertising--the pitch was to get one person to stop smoking this brand and start smoking another brand. Went off the air and saved two hundred and twenty- five million dollars a year in television advertising, and sales went up more the next year than they had the past few years. HALPRtN: Mr. Farber, we're back at red herrings. I didn't think I came here tonight to argue that the tobacco industry Is attempting to tempt non-smokers to smoke. I'm stating this simply--and I'll tell you why I'm emotional about it. Personal experience, not of mine, but of others, make me emotional and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) as a lawyer. We have written laws on the statute books that are intended to be exercised in the full-blown right of every American at least to enjoy his First Amendment rights. We have a health code In the cit-. of New York that makes It an offense punishable by fine or imprisonment or both, to smoke on public transportation, and particularly the example I'm giving you on the Staten Island Ferry. The (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of the smoker, for which this tobacco industry is responsible through their advertising, put people in high office, like the Commissioner of Environmental Protection. I'il talk about him, but I'll talk about... HOST: You mean here or down in Washington? HALPRIN: I'm speaking about New York City, I believe, I said the New York City Health Code, if I didn't, I stand corrected. Thank you for the interruption... HOST: Yes... HALPRIN: The Commissioner o.f Marine Aviation prosecuted ,Q a man, I can mention his name, I have his permission, Calvin ~ Upnow(?), because he spoke up on the Staten Island Ferry, and ca told passengers not to violate the law. He was arrested once ~ .w . .a

-9- or twice. He was sent to me by the American Cancer Society. I don't practice in the criminal courts, we don't practice criminal law in our office. But I went to bat for him, I talked to the Commissioner of Aviation, and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the complainant (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and he said, I was wrong, I shouldn't have been smoking. But then the Commissioner of Aviation in his office said, this fellow's a trouble maker, and we found out he was taking pictures showing people smoking, employees of the Staten Island Ferry. And, believe it or not, to his complaint, because he went to the Mayor's office. I w.ish you, Mr. Korpegay, had rather been at the Mayor's office and the office of his staff, a gas mask won't help you to get in and out. (OVERTALK) who Is the Chief Liason Officer? (OVE RTALK) HALPRIN: Well, I'll tell you, it'll knock you over. And (OVERTALK) in the office of the Environmental Commissioner, I went in to speak about something, and that is the letter. Have you ever walked up Lexington Avenue with the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Hospital here? The cigarettes on the street? When I went in to talk to him, his First Assistant came up and the PR Man, and he said, we know your trick, you're trying to sell outdoor ashtrays to the city. (LAUGHTER) Now after all, if the smoker's going to smoke, then he ought to clean up after him. KORNEGAY: You mean It's against the law to smoke on the Staten Island Ferry? HALPRIN: Look,.it's not only against the law, it's against two laws, sir. KORNEGAY: You mean Inside or outside? HALPRIN: Now, wait a minute. Let me educate you...(OVERTALK) We have a law in New York known as the Health Code... KORNEGAY: I don't live in New York. HALPRIN: Well, all right, we have it elsewhere, too, and it's violated. KORNEGAY: The thing I couldn't understand, I'm being polite... (OVERTALK) KORNEGAY: Wait a minute, let me tell you why I asked the question, I've gotten the answer. (OVERTALK) Well, I've also practiced law... (OVERTALK). Now, let me say this: To me, to outlaw smoking on the Staten Island'Ferry, If it's outside of the enclosed area, you've got the whole outdoors, and you've ,~

-10- got a thousand jets flying over, does this jet bother you any? (UNINTELLIGIBLE) maybe you've cleaned it up... (OVERTALK) HALPRIN: For your own information, it is not only a violation of the Health Code, but there is a special regulation of the Department of Marine Aviation that makes it an offense punishable by a fine, imprisonment, or both, to place a lit or formerly lit smoking object any place except In a designated receptacle. The only exception, now that you say it, is on the Staten Island Ferry... HOST: Betty Carnes, you've been (OVERTALK) Florence Nightingale (UNINTELLIGIBLE). CARNES: I don't feel patient Inside, because I would like to bring some facts to your attention. Number one, Mr. Halprin says this does not affect his health. This may be true for Mr. Halprin...(OVERTALK). HALPRIN: When It affects my health, I said that's not my concern. CARNES: And I'm talking about the rest of the people in this country, people that I've come in contact with. Three- fourths of the people in Arizona who tell me they do not smoke, many, many, many of them are affer.ted very seriously by the smoking in closed places. And In the light of this, these people have rights--they have rights to clean air. And we are doing everything we can do to get that for them in Arizona. The restaurants on a voluntary basis have come fo.-eward. We have seven restaurants In Arizona that now give a good part of their restaurants to the non-smokers, because they opened a small section of the restaurant to the non-smokers, and so many people came to use that space they have had to enlarge it, and enlarge it, and enlarge it. And this was noted on the front page of the NEW YORK TIMES, on September the 30th. It was also noted on the network NBC broadcast that went coast to coast in this country, as to all the money that the restaurants were making from all the new customers who were non-smokers. Now this is proof of the pudding. And here in--here in New York, you have Rockhoff's(?) tonight, a delightful old restaurant, wonderful food there tonight, and no smoking, and people in the restaurant say, this is wonderful, you don't know how they're enjoying this. ~ v w Now, In nearby New Jersey we have a new restaurant--an ~ old restaurant called the Bluebird Inn, over In Franklin Lakes(?). -p ~\

In the forty years of being in business, they have never had any smoking in the entire restaurar:t. That was the great surprise of my life, and I went over there Saturday for dinner. They serve delightful food, service was excellent, and not a bit of smoke in the entire place. KORNEGAY: May I get a commercial in? HOST: Horace Kornegay. KORNEGAY: No, I was kidding. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) commercial (OVERTALK). But you have--you hear people who have causes such as you do, and I have no objection to It, I admire people who have--feel for things...(OVERTALK). What sort of irritates me is when people try to say that I speak from self interest, but you don't speak from self interest. (OVERTALK) The overcompensation is not always In terms of money, it's in fame, seeing your picture in the paper, your name in the paper. it's an opportunity to make a speech. (OVERTALK) HOST: Thank you all, sorry to cut you so short, but I'm (UNiNTELLIGIBLE). ~