Industry-Provided Depositions
Brown and Williamson Tobacco Corporation vs. Philip Morris, Inc Volume III, Continued Deposition of Nancy G. Naughton
Abstract
Deposition statement of Nancy Naughton, Capri Brand Manager for Brown and Williamson. Questions at length the strategy of cutting advertising spending in Capri between 1989-1990. Produces textbook marketing principles stating that increased spending for marketing increases sales. Argues that Capri did not lose appreciable market share from vastly reduced spending. Identifies Virginia Slims Super Slims as primary competition for Capri.
User-Contributed Notes
Fields
- Notes
Original document code was 493.
- Minor Subject
- Advertising and Marketing -market share
- Advertising and Marketing -media spending
- Advertising and Marketing -research --survey
- Advertising and Marketing -target market --female
- Brand -loyalty
- Brand -switching
- Cigarette -design
- Legal Issues -litigation
- Advertising and Marketing -media spending
- Site
- Minnesota litigation
- Target Market
- Women
- Marketing Type
- MediaBudg
- ProdDesign
- Type
- Legal- Deposition Statement
- Non-Industry Publication
- Major Subject
- Advertising and Marketing
- Brand
- Author
- Naughton, Nancy G.Established Brands
- Brand
- Capri (PM)
- Virginia Slims (PM)
- Virginia Slims Super
- Virginia Slims (PM)
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ORIGINAL
461
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT O~ KENTUCKY
LOUISVILLE DIVISION
BROWN AND WILLIAMSON TOBACCO
CORPORAT~0N
vs.
PHILIP MORRIS, INCORPORATED ) VOLUME
NO. C-89-04740-L-B ) PAGES 461-677
CONFIDENTIAL
Continued deposition of NANCY G. NAUGKTON,
held at the offices of Fish & Nea~ve, 875 Third
Avenue, New York, New York 10022, commencing at
i0:i0 A.M., Thursday, September 1.0, 1992, before
JOYCE G. ABELES.
230 Par~ Avenue
Sui(e 847
New York, New York 10t69
212-490-3430 Fex: 212,-4~).-3534

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462
APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL
FOR THE PARTY BROWN AND WILLIAMSO~
TOBACCO CORPORATION:
MORGAN & FINNEGAN
BY: JAMES W. GOULD, ESQ.
345 Park Avenue
New York, New York I~154
FOR
THE PARTY PHILIP MORRIS, INCORPORATED:
FISH ~ NEAVE
JOHN M. HINTZ, ~SQ.
875 Third Avenue
New York, New York 10022
ALSO PRESENT:
KEITH TAKEDA
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463
NANCY G. NAUGHTON,
having been first duly sworn by
JOYCE G. ABELES, a Notary P'ublic
within and for the State of New York,
was examined and testified .as follows:
o0o
EXAMINATION CONTINU~ED
BY-MR. HINTZ ...................................
Q. Ms. Naughtcn, it's a silly question
we often ask but you are the same Ms. Naughton
who was deposed earlier in ~his z~ction?
A. That's right.
Q. Since that deposition, which was May
14th and 15th, have you had any c<onversatioas
with a man named Dennis Dugan?
A. No.
Q. How about a Dudley Smith?
A. No.
Have you ever heard ~f either of
~hose gentlemen?
A. No.
Q. Have you zevl~wed anT deposition
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
transcripts from this case?
A. Just mine and some of Bonnie
McCafferty's.
Q. Why did you review s,ome of Bonnie
McCafferty's?
A. Mr. Gould and I just went through
it, little portions of it.
Q. Did you ask to see ilt?
A. NO.
Q. Have you reviewed an~ expert witness
statements in this cas~?
A. No.
Q. Let me Just give you some names and
see if these are familiar to you :in relation to
this case: Dr. Hausman?
A. No.
Q. Dr. Meyer?
A. No.
Q. Mr. Zerschling?
A. No.
Q. Do you know a person by the name of
Corky Newton from B&W?
A. Yes.
Q. who is that person?
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NANCY G. NAUG~TON - CONF'IDENTIAL
A. Right now she's in MIIS, used to be
director in marketing research.
And what is her part.icular area of
expertise if any?
A. When Corky and I wor'ked together,
she was in marketing research.
Q. Is that MRD?
A. That's right.
Q. And when was that?
A. I.don't remember the
full time frame
we worked together but it was up through April of
this year.
Q. Do you have any deal~ings with her
now in her new position?
A. Just a little as far as systems are
concerned in terms of purchasing ]PCs, issues like
that.
Q. What are her responsibilities now,
to your understanding?
She handles
O-
terms of
A.
I don't really know ~peclfically.
a lot of the systems work.
But your interaction with her is
hardware and software?
That's correct.
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NANCY G. NAUGKTON CONFIDENTIAL
Q. Acquisition and purclhase?
A. That's right.
Q. In your dealings witlh her, have
those dealings involved creation ,of software
in-heuse at B&W?
A. Well, that's not -- :in terms of
getting ~nformation out of our ma:in frame and how
that's structured, that's an area that I would
talk to her about if I had a ques~tlon.
Q. Let me hand you what"s been
previously marked as Exhibit 707. Have you seen
this document before today?
A. I don't believe so.
MR. GOULD: You should look
through all the pages.
THE WITNESS: Oh, ~es, I did see
this yesterday.
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. And if you turn to the third page,
what's called Schedule A, you'11 see that there's
an item 8 regarding B&W's Bal~imo~e heavy spend
program and other B&W heavy spend activity, do
you see that?
A. That's right.
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467
NANCY G. NAUGHT0~ - CONFIDENTIAL
Q. Is it your understan,ding that part
of what you're being asked to do today is to
testify on behalf of B&W regardln!g that paragraph
MR. GOULD: Ceunseil, that's
subject to all the objections I m~ade of record
during Mr. Fitzmaurice's depositi,on with respect
to generally B&W's so-called heav~y spend
activity, not related to reduced ~circumference
cigarettes.
You can answer subje~ct to that
objection.
BY MR.
THE WITNESS: I un~derstand that I
HINTZ:
Q. And is the same true for paragraph
9, that part of your responsibilizy or part of
our purpose of being here today is for you to
testify on behalf of B&W with regard to paragraph
9 of Exhibi~ 707?
A. That's correct.
Q. And paragraph Ii of ~xhibi~ 707?
MR. GOULD~ Again, subject to the
same objections of record.
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NANCY G. NAUGKTON -
THE WITNESS:
BY MR. HINTZ:
A.
Q.
CONF~IDENTIAL
That's correct.
468
And paragraph 12 of IExhibit 707?
That's right.
Is it your understan~ding that you're
also here to testify as a cOntlnu~tion of your
individual deposition that was taken earlier?
A. That's right.
MR. GOULD: Counsel, I don't want
to have any confusion as to when Ms. Naughton is
testifying as a 30(b) {6) witness ~r as an
individual. So if you would tell me now which
you elect to start with --
MR. HINTZ: I don'~ think it's
possible to do one first and then the other.
MR. GOULD: I will not allow mixed
deposition, counsel, I will not a~low that.
MR. HINTZ: Then you may want to
seek a protective order because I"m not going to
operate under that procedure.
MR. GOULD: That's the way the
rules require it.
MR. HINTZ: Read mR the rule.
MR. GOULD: When y~u notice a
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469
NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONF'IDENTIAL
30(b) (6), it's limited to ths categories and it's
clear the person is testifying as a
representative of the party. As .an individual
the testimony is not limited to tlhose specified
categories and in that
as a representative of
Now, that
case she i~s not speaking
the corpor~atlon.
is the pra,ctice that we've
been following throughout the cas,e and that is
the practice we are going to foll~ow now.
MR. HINTZ: It's n~ot true that the
rules require that. There's case law that says
when a 30(b) (6) witness testifies., raises their
hand and swears to ~estify, they ~can testify and
they can testify to all matters t~ey are asked to
testify and are net limited to 30 (b) (6) matters.
Secondly, that has n~t been the
practice in this action. And fun~tionally, it's
going to be difficult to do that because we are
talking about different matters amd differe,nt
times and her individual and representative
capacities are going to cross. So to the best we
can, we will try to make it clear-
MR. GOULD: So you"resaying
yoU're proceeding with'both simul~aneously here?
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONF'IDENTIAL
MR. HINTZ: Yes, e:ir. And to the
extent we can make it clear --
MR. GOULD: Then, counsel, I will
have to interpose objections when.ever I think
it's appropriate, whe~ever I thln.k this is inside
or outside of the scope and I will have to do
that with respect to every question since you're
insisting that we proceed that way.
MR. HINTZ: The alternative will
be to double the time that's required because we
have to finish the individual and I will have to
ask all those questions and then .we will have to
do the 30(b) {6) and I will have t,o ask all ~hose
questions again.
MR, GOULD: You do]n't have to ask
the same questions. If it's done under the
30(b) (6) and the topic is covered, there's
absolutely no need to reask the s~ame questions as
an individual, counsel. That's am absurd
suggestion.
MR. HINTZ: Are yom saying that
Ms. Naughton's individual view is the same as
B&W's in all instances, that her ~view is no
different from the company line, ~he company
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policy?
NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CON~YDENT~AL
471
M~. GOULD: Counse~l, if you insist
on doing it this way and wasting the time you
have for this deposition, go ahea.d and ask your
questions and I'll pose my ebJect, iens. I object
strenuously to this waste of time~ in going
forward this way.
Ask your questions.
MR. HINTZ: If you can tell me her
position is sot going to be any different than
B&W'S co~porate position --
MR. GOULD: I'm telling
respect ~o the ~opios of the 30(b ) (6) , to
you with
the
under
the
extent she can testify, she is te~stifylng
the rules as a representative of ~&W. To
extent her testimony is outside t~hess categories,
she is not tsstifylng as a 30(b) (~6) witness.
So
go ahead and ask your questions.
MR. HINTZ: All right, let's
start. ADd this is clearly as an individual.
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. Let me hand you uhe ~ransorlpt from
the May 14th session of your depomitlon. This is
the minuscrlpt version. If you look, if you find
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472
NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONF'IDENTIAL
page 56. i~'s in the middle towar'ds the ~op,
there are multiple pages on this 8 and a half by
ii sheet.
At line 8 there's a question:
"Question:" Is there .a general
on a program that
rule
you
you will more
or principle to your understandln.g that if
spend more money
from th~at program?
there's not, certainly
spendin!g more will get
likely obtain more volume
• Answer: No,
no rule that we have that
you more." Do you
A. Yes.
Q. Is that
A. Yes.
Q. Now, in your answer ton May 14th, you
said, "there's not, certainly no ~rule that we
have," and I just want to make sucre we're clear.
My question was, is ~there a general
see that?
rule? ~t seems to me
B&W there's no rule.
rule?
still your wiew today?
you're answering that at
Are you aware of a general
GOULD: Are you asking a
as an expert inmarketing, or
MR.
general question,
what?
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON
MR. HINTZ:
she's aware as a general rule o~
473
CONFIDENTIAL
If, as an individual,
thumb if you
spend more on advertising
of volume.
THE WITNESS:
you ge~ more in terms
NO, I'm not aware of
a general rule oE that nature.
MR. HINTZ: Let me~ show you a
document that we need to mark as Defendant's
Exhlbit 731.
(Defendant's Deposition Exhibit-No.
731 was marked for identification. Exhibit
retained by counsel.)
MR. HINTZ: It's a:n excerpt from a
book entitled Strategic Advertisilng Campaigns by
Don E. Schultz, and it's the thir,d edition, 1990.
MR. GOULD:
numbers, counsel. Has
us before?
MR. HINTZ:
MR. GOULDh
referred to in any of your
in any way?
MR. HINTZ:
MH. GOULD:
this ever ]been produced to
NO.
Has it ever been
expert witness reports
in has not.
I object to this late
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CON~IDENTIAL
production of the document. You're trying to,
under the guise of marking a depolsition
exhibit, put something in evidenc~e after the
cutoff date because you failed to. get it in
timely.
MR. HINTZ: This is a
available to the public.
MR. GOULD: This
entire book and only an excerpt.
M~. HINTZ:
I'm not saying anything
mark it and move on.
MR. GOULD:
can establish a foundation
ever seen it, uses or rscognizes ~it as
authoritative.
MR. HINTZ:
a break, five minutes.
MR. GOULD:
ahead.
document
474
is also not the
That's correct, and
other tha:n that. Let's
Mark i~t and see if
if the witness has
we
Mr. Go~uld, let's take
Ask yomr question, go
MR. HINTZ: Let's Eake a break.
MR. GOULD: Let it be known that
Mr. Hintz has left the room in a state of
agitation and we're staying in th~ room and
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waiting
counsel has
question.
475
NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
£or him to return and as~ his question.
(Recess take~.)
MR. GOULD: Let the record show
returned and we're st~ill awaiting his
MR. HINTZ: I'm to~id Mr. Gould has
taken the opportunity to say a fe~w things on the
record. Rather than reading them~ back, let me
note that I don't care what he said, but if he's
going to conduct himself outside the bounds of
professionalism by giving speeche:s and lecturing,
we will not put up with it today.
MR. GOULD: You kn.ow perfectly
well this is a fact witness; you said yoursel£
she's not an expert witness. You're trying to
put in front of her a selected ex,cerpt from a
book ~hat has never been relied o~ by your
experts and never been produced s,o far in the
case.
And we're beyond the date of
producing documents and all docum~ents upon which
you're going to rely on trial havre been produced
or testified to and now you're trying Lo put this
one in through the back door, and I think that's
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improper
this case.
question?
476
NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONF'IDENTIAL
and contrary to the scheduling order in
MR. HINTZ: Are you finished?
MR. GOULD: Yes.
MR. HINTZ: Thank
MR. GOULD: Do you have a
MR. HINTZ:
it works. I ask questions,
object and it's limited to
MR. GOULD:
pending question, counsel.
MR. HINTZ:
to make speeches?
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. Ms. Naughton,
That's usually the way
that.
You dom't have a
So tha~ entitles you
heard of this book, Strategic Advertising
Campaigns?
MR. GOULD:
form. You can answer.
THE WITNESS: Not ~hat I recall.
BY MR. HINTZ:
0hject~on, compound
Where did you receiv~ your MBA,
Ms. Naughton?
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONF[IDRNTIAL
A. From Northwestern.
Q. Have you ever heard ~of a Mr. or
Dr. Schultz from Northwestern?
A. I might have. I don't recall at
this point.
Q. And the r~ason I ask obviously is
477
he's indicated as being from Northwestern and he
is the author of this book.
Would you turn to th~ page of this
book that's page 266; it's the second page of the
exhibit and it bridges to 268.
The very last sentence on 266 reads:
"One of the most well-accepted approaches is that
developed by
J. O. Peckham using Nielsen data. From his
studies, Peckham found that to ho~d marke~ share,
the advertiser should spend at the same level as
sha~e of market. To gain sales, ~t was necessary
to spend at 1.5 to 2.0 times market share."
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you familiar with that
"well-accepted approach developed by J. O.
Peckham"?
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time to
you wish.
NANCY G. NAUGHTON
MR. GOULD:
read whatever portions
478
CON~IDENTIAL
Ms. Nmughton, take the
o£[ this excerpt
I also object to hawing taken simply
selected pages out of context.
context of this quote here and
improper.
Q. Just so we're clear,
what I'm asking, I'm just asking
Me don't have the
thLis is highly
MS. Naughton,
if you're aware
Of or familiar with the portion that I Just read
to you?
A. I don't recall it.
courses or advertising courses, it may have come
During marketing
up. It's certainly not something that
top of my head anyway.
Q. Do you have any reason to dispute
the section that I just read into the record?
MR. GOULD: Oh, co:unsel, come en.
iS at the
This is a textbook.
do this.
sir?
objection.
You should h;ave your expert
MR. HINTZ.: Is tha~t an objection,
MR. GOULD: Yes, t]his is an
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479
NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
MR. HINTZ: I'd l~ke tO hear the
word objection; state your object;ion please as if
you were in court. You know how to do that.
MR. GOULD: And y~u know how to
properly get a piece of evidence or an article
into evidence properly and this i.s no~ it,
counsel.
MR. HINTZ: ~'m no~t tying do
that. I'm trying to discover facets. I'm trying
to discover if she's aware of cer'tain facts.
MR. GOULD: And shoe said she's
not -- she said no, she's not awa.re of this
p~Inciple.
MR. HINTZ: I can't wait to read
this transcript. That's not what she said; she
said she may have come across it in school and
she doesn't remember.
MR. GOULD:
foundation.
Objection, lack of
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. NOW, would you turn Iplease to 277
which is the second to the last p~age of
Exhibit 731 and there's a bold-lanced heading,
Competitive Expenditure Approach. De you see
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that?
NANCY G. NAUGHTON
CON¥'IDENTIAL
480
A. Yes.
Q. And
• The competitive
the first p~rt o,f this reads,
expenditure appr'oach to
budgeting is widely used. The ruble of thumb says
the advertiser must spend at a rate of one and
one-hal£ to two times the annual advertising rate
per share point of competitors to. reach a share
objective."
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Qo Further down in the inext paragraph,
the first sentence reads, "Over a period of
several years, J. 0. Peckham gath,ered evidence of
a strong correlation between what is invested ±n
advertising as a share cf the cat~egory total and
the share of market
Do you
A. Yes.
0.
achieved."
see that?
DOeS that help refre~sh your
recollectio~ as to J. 0. Peckham'~s work and this
rule of thumb regarding spend of ~ahare?
A. NO.
MR. GOULD: Counsel, I'm going to
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481
NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONWIDENTIAL
interpose an objection. If what you're
attempting here is to get this so~mehow into the
record and then have your expertsl rely upon this
because you read it during this dlepositicn, I
will strenuously object. I hope that's no~ what
you're attempting to do here.
MR. HINTZ:
what I'm attempting to do,
foreclose the possibility
order.
to do,
order.
That's: certainly not
but I will not
that my" experts may
rely on this document in whole or' in part.
MR. GOULD: That's contrary to the
If you say that's what yo~u're attempting
then clearly you're trying to evade the
You told us specific~ally tha~
everything relied upon by your ex]perts has been
identified and has been produced, we have that
explicitly in writing from you.
deposition.
brought out.
MR. HINTZ:
Or Idelntified at their
MR. GOULD: NO, an~ further things
None of your expert~ identified
this at their deposition as an exhibit.
MR. HINTZ: That's correct,
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CON~IDENTIAL
were they asked anything about i~.
MR. GOULD: How c~n I ask if we
haven't been provided this document or it hasn't
been identified? If you attempt to put this into
evidence with your experts by virtue of your
having read it in this deposltio~, we're ~oing to
move in limine and bring it to t~e attention o~
the court. That is entirely impr~oper.
MR. HINTZ:
interrupting, Mr. Gould. This
answer session. It's not time
your arguments for the future.
Why do*n't you stop
is~ a question and
fo,r you to plan
And I will tell you right now, I
will not use my reading of this d.ocument and
Ms. Naughton's answer in any way to get this
document in.
MR. GOULD: Thank
MR. HINTZ: I will also tell you
that does not mean we will not trly to get this
document or other documents in if we think this
is appropriate and we can do it u~nder the court's
order.
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. Back to this exhibit, one last
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
483
thin~.
MR. GOULD: Do youL have the
entire, at least the chapters of these excerpted
pKgee, counsel, so the witness cain look at the
context of the quotes you're takl.ng?
these pages,
the book ~t came from?
MR. HINTZ:
understand, Mr. Gould?
MR. GOULD:
of the paragraphs
MR. HINTZ:
another break, Mr. Gould?
BY MR. HINTZ:
MR. HINTZ: NO.
MR. GOULD: NO, yo,u just have
you don't have in yo,ur possession
What w'ords
I'm sa[ying
do you not
the context
Do you want to take
I said no.
Q. If you would look, p~lease, in
Exhibit 731, a~ain at the second ~age of the
exhibit, it's page 266 of the booR, Strategic
Advertising Campaigns, under Competitive
Comparisons you'll see the third ~entence begins,
"relating," and I'll read it for ~he record.
"Relating share of m~rket, share of
units, or other Eactors to the sh~re of
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, 484
NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONF'IDENTIAL
advertislng, a ratio is establish~ed. " -Fro~ this,
the advertising planner then seek~s to achieve a
'share of voice' or share of adve~rtising which
is, in general, equal to the shar'e of market
which the brand holds."
DO you see that?
Yes.
In your experience
Q. a.t B&W,
• performed any calculations where yo~u detePmined
the share of voice or share of ad~vertising in
relation to market share?
A. I don't use it frequently. There
may be some .in the media p.!annlng group or, you
know, some brand managers might h,ave. I
generally don't use that calculation.
Are you familiar wit[h that
calculation?
A.
Q.
Yes.
Is that something th~at
in the past but have abandoned?
A. I haven't really use(d it very much.
I don't really recall relying on ~it too .heavily
outside of a~ example or somethin~g of that
nature.
you have used
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - C0N~IDENTIAL
Have you considered using that
measure and decided not to use it:, or have you
just not considered it?
A. I just don't really consider it when
putting together plans.
Q. But it's your unders~tanding that
other people at B&W have used tha~t method?
A. I'm sure it's been c:alculated.
Q. What I'd like to do now is try to
conclude some of the issues from your
deposition. And to do that, it w~ould
if you would look at your transcr'ipt,
It's on the bottom rlght-hand sidle
the mlnuscript.
On page
beginning at line 16
the end of that page
yourself, please?
MR. GOULD:
whatever you need for the
THE WITNESS:
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. Have you finished re.ading that
section and whatever else you nee,ded to read? ..
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individual
be helpful
page ISS.
of the page of
158 there's a question
and your answer continues 6~
158. Could you ~ead that to
Read b~efore and after,
context, MS. Naughtonc'-
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NANCY G, .NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
A. YeS.
Q. Is it still your temtimony that the
time frame where spending was becoming more
focused started i~ 1989, that's the spending on
Capri?
A. AS best I can recollect, we began to
think in a more focused way in imte 1989. ....
Q. When did Zhe actual spendingbecome
more focused?
A. I don't know off the top of my head
without looking at some spending numbers.
--
Q. What would you need to look at,
actual numbers?
A. Actuals.
Q. Okay. ..
MR. HINTZ: Let me~ mark as
Exhibit 732 a collection of documlents produced by
B&W bearing production numbers EWrT308-99 through
196 in which we have inserted tab, s 1 through 12
corresponding to the 12. monthsof the year for
ease of reference. And these are~ 1988 documents.
(Defendant's Deposition Exhiblt-No.
732 was marked for identification.. Exhibit
retained by counsel.)
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again
bears
NANCY G. NAUGHTON -
MR. HINTZ:
continue marking
we've inserted the
production numbers
CONF'IDENTIAL
While we're at
487
it. let
a set fo, r 1989 in which-
tabs. T'he document
BWT308-197 to 303.
733 was
retained by counsel.)
MR. HINTZ:
Exhibit 734, the set for
BWT308-304 through 392.
(Defendant's Deposition Exhibit-No.
marked ~or identification.. Exhibi~
And the next exhibit,
1990, pr'oduction numbers
(Defendant.'s Deposition .Exhlbit-No.
734 was marked for identification. Exhibit
retained by counsel.)
MR. KINTZ: And the final set is a
set for January through September 1991 of
documents bearing production numbers BWT308-393
through 420, and BWT363-01 throug[h 031.
(Defendant's Deposition Exhibit-No.
735 was marked for identification, Exhibit
retained by counsel.)
BY MR. HINTZ:
Ms. Naughton, have y,ou had a chance
to look through, at least in some part, these
exhibits as they have been marked and placed in
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
front of you, 732, 733, 734, and 735?
A. I've looked at a comple of pages.
Q. My question -- let me ask it and
we'll see if this hslps. Are yo~ familiar with
reporte of Brown ~ Williamson?
I'm familiar with bm~get mats.
And what's a budget mat?
The monthly budget ~eport.
Is that document conltained within
these kinds of
A.
Q.
A.
0.
any one of these exhibits?
A, I believe it's in al.1 o£ them.
Q. Can you identify wha~t you're calling
a budget mat just so I'm clear on~ the terms?
A. There are reports th~at say monthly
budget report on the top of it.
Q. So if we could just pick whatever
exhibit you're looking in so we c:an make
everything clear?
A. 732.
Q. All right. For January, the first
first page~ is Monthly Free ,Goods Summary.
tab,
Are you
A.
Q.
familiar with that page?
I don't usually receive that.
Second page is Monthly Variable
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Margin
A.
Q.
Summary?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
that tab,
Specific?
A.
Q.
least?
A.
Q.
NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONF~IDENTIAL
Summary?
I receive that.
Third page is Monthl.y Variable
489
Cost
I don't believe I re~ceive that.
Next page is Monthl~ Budget Report?
And those continue o~n to
Advertising Media and S:ales
the end of
Promotion
That's right.
You're familiar
with. those pages
Yes.
Now, I believe what
got us into
these documents is your testimony' that you would
need to see actual numbers to determine when -~
spending became more focused. And it's somewhat
up to you how we go about doing that. I believe
these are the actual numbers. I'~m tryin~ to give
you what you need to answer the q[uestion. If yo~/
could kind of walk me through what you're looking
at.
A. Well, just from looking at these,
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONF'IDENTIAL
like the December budget mats for~ December 1989
versus December 1990.
Q. Okay.
A. Just in terms o~ £oc:using spend.
Q. And what particularly are you
looking at? Are you looking at d~omestic media?
A. No, sales promotions:.
Q. Okay. And are you looking at the -"
grand total or are you looking at particular line
items?
A. Well, for example, a.fter all this
time it's pretty hard to say exactly what is --
within each line item and how it was charged out,
but coupon redemption, for example, is a good
area of where we focused and were more nactical
in our approach with a significant change, we
pulled back significantly on coupon redemption.
For example, you can see in 1989
through December we spent about $15 million in
coupon redemption in the field, w[hich then in
1990 was just a little, like arou:nd $3 million.
Q. So that's the 15 mll[lion that's
shown in Exhibit 733 on page 308-~301, line item
"coupon redemption-field"?
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at
308-392,
right?
A.
really go
tell you.
NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
A. That's right.
Q. And for comparison, iyou were looking
Exhibit 734, the page with pro,duction number~"
"coupon redemption-field" there also,
Right. And at this !poin~ 1 can't
back and lock at each l:ine item and .--
I know we were tightening up our focus
versus some of the big national p:rograme that we
did. We didn't have a wide range of national
programs because we knew we had r,egional skew, so
that's in reference to tightening our focus in
the fourth quarter of 1989, I thilnk. In 1990 we
executed against that position.
Q. But this shows you t~at on a
year-end basis that ~ha~ change w~s made~ Can
you identify what particular time during the year
1990?
A.
On a budge~ mat basis I really can't
because it's not billed that way. I mean, I
wouldn't know how coupons are expensed and to
look at a monthly actual won't indicate that.
Q. How about media, foc~slng media,
what was done to focus media?
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be much more
smokers. We focused our out of
more selective group of markets
opportunity markets.
NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONF~IDENTIAL
We tightened up our magazine
targeted once
492
list to
we kne~w more about OUr
h~ome on a much
t.hat were high
Q. And that's also show, n in Exhibits
733 and 774 in tab 12, again the December
numbers, let's say the media?
A. Well, between Decemb,er of 1989 and
1990, you can see our reduction in out of home
spend as well as a reduction in m~agazine spend.
Q. They were both cut about in half?
A. Roughly.
Q. So that shows that t.he amount of
money that B&W was spending on those two vehicles
was reduced, obviously?
down
down?
that
the number of placements of advertisements went
or Just the amount of time plurchased went
A. That's right.
Q." Does that show anything about how
reduction came about, for ex~ample, whether
A. You can't tell that ~from the b~dge~"
numbers.
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NANCY G. NAUGETON CONFIDENTIAL
Q. Is there any source for that
information?
493
A. It would have to be in the media
recap, something from the agency as far as what
magazine insertions we had.
Q. so these numbers ~ha~ we've loomed
at show decreases that occurred b~etween 1989 and
199'I? First
we'll take a
if you
1990, correct?
That's right.
Q. What happened in
can from your memory and then
at the actuals.
A. I don't recall
1991 at this point.
was
look
their
dollars,
A.
efficient
0.
money
OUr a.ctual plan for
Q. Do you recall if the, spend for media
to remain the same, increase or decrease?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Wasn't B&W'S focus o,n targeting ~"
advertising and focusing their advertising
isn't that what B&W learned?
We were looking to be the
possible.
And spend the minimu:m amount
to get the maximum gain?
of
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against
Q.
NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONF'IDENTIAL
We Just wanted to sp, end smartly
our target.
Spending smartly
spending less?
A.
testified at
494
doe~sn't always mean
Not necessarily.
But prior to 1990, a.s you've
some point, B&W began learning that
their spending was inefficient, r'ight?
A-. There were some inef ficiencies in
the way we were executing program,s.
Q.
the ame~nt
answered
And you made a choice to cut back
o£ expenditures?
MR. GOULD: Objection, asked and~-
in the prior deposition. You can
THE WITNESS= We just -- we
evaluated the programs, what was "working, and w~.
could be more focused, we knew wh,o our consumers
were. Previous to that, we had h~ad a lot of
national programs and we knew the brand was more
regional. We had a better sense ~for that
consumer and how to speak to that consumer versus
broad national vehicles and thlng:s like direct
mail and broader scale programs. FSIs, for
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NANCY ~. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
example, weren't necessarily cost efficient.
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. And you're sayin~ "we," who is the
we, who was involved in makin~ these ....
determinations?
A. Certainly the brand group and those
recommendations were forwarded t~ the next level
of management. ....
Q. And who is in the bEand group at
this time, '89/'90?
A. I don't remember exactly who was
there what year. One time Susan Osborne was
director.
Q.
A.
was the senior brand manager.
Who else?
Carrie Canavan was t:he brand manager
the spend cu.ts came about,
at one point.
Q. And you testified i~ your last
deposition, and if you would like~ to refer to it,
it's at page 171 of the May 14th transcript,
about whether you and the brand hLad asked for
less money in 1990. See page 171., lines i0
through 23?
A. Yes.
Q. So when
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NANCY O. NAUGHTON - CONF'IDENTIAL
those of you in the brand who wer'e learning about
targeting and learning about beco~ming more
~£ficient didn't come right in in~ 1990 and
voluntarily give away millions of dollars of your
budget?
A. ~o. ~ut £ think we recommended much
more efficient programs and it wa.s -- the concept
was there. As ~ brand manager yo,u always go in
with an aggressive position.
Oo
position?
A.
plan was.
magazines and out
And how aggressive w'as
don't remember what
your initial
the initial
actually
A.
was.
Q.
plan, to
in half?
A.
Q.
brand, who
Was the initial plan to cut
of home in half as we saw
happened?
I don't recall what the initial plan
So that might have b,een the initial
go in with a recommendat,lo~ to cut those
I don't recall at th:is point.
Who made the recomme~ndation from the
had the final responsi]bility from the,
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON o CONFIDENTIAL
brand? Was that you? This is far the 1990
budget.
A. Not -- no, not as b~and manager.
Q. You and your brand group would make
a recommendation and pass that up to someone
else?
A. That's right. The ~lannins process
was evolutionary. The initial thinking was
present.ed, the issues, so ~t evolves over time.
And sometimes you're told to make
cuts from above, correct? ....
A. That can happen.
Q. Did that happen for the 1990
A. I don't recall at t~is point.
Q. So you're sure that for the 1990 ....
budget, you d~dn't come in with m low number
right from the beginning, but you don't know
whether you were asked to make t~e cuts or
whether you suggested them yourselves later on;..
budget?
said I didn"t remember
in with ini~ially. I'm sure
That's normal.ly how brand
is that correct?
A, Well, I
exactly what we went
it was aggressive.
managers do.it.
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
AS I mentioned, it is an
evolunlonary process, we are alwmys challenged to
be as efficient as possible. I can't tell you
every step of what happened, whe~. The planning
process is long and I certainly don't recall back
in 1990 what happened each step of the way.
Q. But you seem to recmll that yon were
becoming more focused and you were trying to
spend more efficiently. You had that thinking
beginnin~ in 1989, correct?
A. That was ~he strategic direction we
were looking at, it made sense a~d we're still
doin~ it today and that's when it: started. Than
was a b~g event in ter~s of how ~e were handling
and managing nhe brand. In terms; of presenting
budgets and plans, there are so m~any iterations .....
in any plan, any year, you csn't remember what
process went on from year to year'.
Q. What phase in the budgeting process
are you in now for 1993?
A. ~ can't really speak: to that, where
we are right now. I'm currently the director of
advertising and promotion, so I run the
operational side of that business, so I'm not " •
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFrIDENT~AL
actively involved in the planning[ role.
When was the las~ time you
actively involved in the planning[ role?
A. Last year.
Q. And when did
499
were
that pr:ocess begin for
the '92 budget?
A. I don't recall exact~ly when. At
this point, I would -- this would[ be just a guess
on my part, mid-year, so June, Juily.
Q. And when you left yo*ur previous
position in April of this year, h~ad the budget
been established for '92?
A. We were certainly sp,ending against
authorized. Whether it had been throughthe
formal channels, I don't know.
Q. So you don't know if BAT had
approved the 1992 budget at that point?
A. I don't know.
Q. BAT always approves
correct?
A.
the budgets,
I'm not really well 'versed in that
approval process. I don't get in'volved in that.
Q. It's something that iMr. Fitzmaurice
might know about?
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON
That's right.
MR~ HINTZ:
C0NF'IDENTIAL
I'il ask the reporter
to mark as Defendant's Exhibit 736 a multipage ....
document bearin~ production numbe~rs BWT316-1708
through 1716.
(De~e~dant's Deposition Exhibit-No.
736 was marked ~or identifications. Exhibit
retained by counsel.)
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. If you look on the first page of
Exhibit 736, you'll see your initials in the
upper right-hand corner, do you see that?
A. Yes.
MR. GOULD: Counse~l, so it's
clear, sometime ago you indicated, you were
proceeding with Ms. Naughton as an individual,
cleanlns up areas from her prior testimony. Are
we still in the individual capacity or are we
switching to 30 (b) (6) or what?
HINTZ: We're in
GOULD: All ri,ght.
individual."
MR.
MR.
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. Does that
document that
indicate tlhat this is a
you prepared, Exhibit 736?
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assuming it's
0.
that right?
A.
Q.
501
NANCY G. NAUGMTON CONFIDENTIAL
It'S my secretary's writing so I'm
mine. It look like hers, anyway.
And the date is Jun~ 6, 1989; is
That's right.
First page has a he~ding,
~o you
Planning
see tha~?
Considerations Target Audience,
A. Yes.
Q. Is this document 736; a part of the
planning that you were going through for the
Capri
brand?
A. Just looking at this~ document I
tell how it was used, quit~ frankly.
Q. But at least on the first page it
these are plannin~ considerations
you
indicates that
as far as the target audience
A. That's right.
Q. The first bullet ite~m mentions
source of business and recontact s~udles, do
see that?
A. Yes.
Q.
the middle
no
Were such studies co~nducted in about
to the end of 19897
I don'~ xeally recal, l. I know we
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON
had several consumer studies for
those -- I don't know which ones
implemented.
MR. HINTZ:
to mark as Exhibit 737 a
bearing production numbers
It's dated June 14, 1989.
research authorization.
5O2
CONFIDENTIAL
Capri. Some of
were exactly
I'll ~sk the reporter
three-p~e document
BWT324~-0143 to 0145.
It's m marketing
(Defendant's Deposit~ion Exhiblt-No.
737 was marked for identificatiom. Exhibit
~.
retained by counsel.)
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. MS. Naughton, can you identify
Exhibit 737?
A.
It's a
authorization for a
marketing res~earch
recontact stuLdy in
Louisiana.
Q. And this is somethinLg that you
requested be done, the study that~ is?
A. That's what this indicates.
Q. And about a third of[ the way from
the bottom c~ the ~i~st page, the~re's a
recommended supplier Admar, do yo,u see that?
A. Yes.
Q.
That's Admar l~esearc:h Incorporated
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here
NANCY G. NAUGHTON
in New York?
A. That's right.
Second page of
CONF~IDENTIAL
503
Exhib~it 737 is
something entitled Marketing Rese~arch Request,
Summary and Proposal, do you see that?
Yes.
Is that something that you prepared
Ao
personally?
A'.
No. It was prepared[ by the
marketing research group.
Q. Y0u'll see in the ba.ckground
section, the second paragraph reads, "Based on
the source of business study, the: primary Capri
target audience is defined as 21-35 year old
females with a secondary target o.f females 36
pl~s. However, in recent A&Us conducted in
Baltimore, most often and occaslo~nal usage was
comparable among females 21-35 an.d females 36
plus."
DO you see that?
Ao Yes.
Q. What was the reason if any why th~
Baltimore A&U studies resulted in these
comparable most often and occasio~nal usage
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NANCY G. NAUGMTON CONFIDENTIAL
figures for these different a~e ~anges?
A, I don't know what t~e reason was.
Q. The third l±ne says, "This apparent
change in the composition of Cap~i's most of%en
smoker base may be due to the
acclimation/converslon period required in the 36
plus age sroup," Do you see tha~?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that correct?
A. Is that statement c~rrect?
Q. Yes.
A. Not to my knowledge. That was a
hypothesis as far as why the 36 plus age group
usage pattern was not comparable
olds.
Q, And that hypothesis was disproven
some point?
A. I don't recall whezh~er it was ever
proven or disproven.
Q. But you're saying thLat you don't
believe that ~t's correct?
to 21 to 35 year
that,
at
A. All I'm sayin~ is I couldn't verify
Q. 80 you couldn't say it' s i~correct
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON
either, could you?
A. No.
Q. Is it posslble
heavy spend test was the cause for
comparable usage figures, was that
ever put forward?
MR. GOULD:
That's two questions.
MR. HINTZ:
BY MR. HINTZ:
CONFIDENTIAL
that the Baltimore
these
hypothesis
objection, compound.
I'ii Eephraee.
505
Q. wis the hypothesis ever put forward
that the Baltimore heavy spend test was the cause
of these comparable usage figures?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Was the study that ~ou requested in
Exhibit 737 conducted?
A. I don't recall at this point. As I
mentioned earlier, there were several consumer
research studies that were done.
MR. HINTZ: Let me mark as
Exhibit 738 a multipage document bearing
production numbers BWT324-02 through 041. The
document is entitled Capri Recon~act Study, Study
~esults. It's dated September 1989.
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738 was
retained by counsel.)
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q.
Exhibit 738?
A.
Q.
506
NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
{Defendant's Deposition Exhibit-No.
marked for identificatiom. Exhibit
Ms. Naughton, are you familiar with
Is it your understanding that
Exhibit 738 is the results from t~he study that
you requested in Exhibit 737?
exhibit,
324-04,
A.
O.
which most
time."
Yes.
If you look at the t~hird pa~e of the
it's the page with production number
Research Objectives,
Yes.
First item is,
often smokers
do you see that?
"Dete~rmine extent to
remain loyal over
September 1989, what was the valu.e of that
information to you in planning?
A. Well, you need to kn.ow if your
franchise is loyal, that they hav'e some
commitment
In your position in this time frame,
to the brand. Sometim~es the programs
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NANCY G. NAUG~TON - CONF'IDENTIAL
that should be run would be dic£a.ted by that.
Q. And how does that af[fect the kinds
of programs? Let's ~ake the case~ where your
franchise is highly loyal, what k:inds of programs
would you use?
A. Well, it's really an~ issue of if you
lose your franchise, people move in and out of
your brand relatively quickly, tr'ial generation
for new smokers is a critical issue to offset any
loss.
Q. My question though goes to when you'
have a loyal franchise, what types of programs do
yon r~n. And my next question so. you'll know it
is, when you don't have a loyal franchise, what
programs do you run? I want to see bo~h sides o£
the coin.
A. When you have. a loyal franchise in
my opinion it would be reinforcement of ~he
attributes that they find appealilng about the
brand, image reinforcement, that sort of a
program.
Q. Maybe I'm not understanding you but
what types of programs speciflcal[ly, coupons
packs, coupons for cartons, billb,oards,
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NANCY G.
magazinss,
A.
differ.
Q.
A.
cigarette,
important.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
consistent,
NAUGETON CONYIDENTXAL
sampling?
Depending on the brmnd,
it would
Let's try Capri.
Capri because it's aLn image
brand image reinforcem~ent is
508
based
How is that done phy'sically?
Media support, magaz:ines.
Any particular --
Tape-on items that a.rs image
that's another way of! reinforcing
your franchise in the image and the quality they
see in the brand.
Q. For media you mentio,ned magazines.
How about out of home? Would tha.t also be useful
in reinforcing the image?
A. A lot less than magazines in a brand
llke Capri, because it is targeted outside of
some very high opportunity markets. But £or
franchisej magazine support is aplpropriateo
Q. With a loyal smoker ibase, do you
spend a different amount as far a~s a ratio, as
far as advertising and promotion, than you do for
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NANCY G.
a hen-loyal
A.
about that.
Q.
NAUGHTON
smoker base?
I've really not
In 1989, the
have a loyal smoker base,
use your terms?
A. I think to a
trying to determine that.
and this was reporting in
CONFIDENTIAL
formed any opinion
end of 1989, did Capri
a loyal, franchise to
large extent we were
Based on this study,
Septemb>er, it indicated
that we had a loyal franchise.
Q. And where is that i~dicated?
A. On page 4 of the exhibit, 324-07.
Q. That's the first ite~m?
A. That's right.
Q. "Most often Capri ushers have
remained loyal to the brand and a~re likely to
continue to do
A. That's right.
Q. What does the secondl bullet item
say?
A. Number two?
~..
Q. Yes.
A. "Secondary purchaser's of Capri have
not been euccessfully converted to most often
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON
CONFIDENTIAL
510
So does that indicate that Capri had
a set base of smokers in this study and that was
the extent of it, that other peeple weren't being
drawn into the franchise?
A. NO. That means there is an
occasional user base who buys it occasionally but
just hasn't moved into most often.
Q. So there's a group of people that
purchase most often and there's ~nother smaller
group that purchase occasionally and there's a
large Stoup that don't purchase mt all?
A. That's right.
And this is smokers in Louisiana,
correct?
A.
Q.
Capri's
A.
That's correct.
And Louisiana has al_ways been
best market?
It's been up in the top five
consistently.
Q. Do you have an understanding of
these secondary purchasers weren't converted
most often users durin~ this time~ frame?
why
to
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
Q. Turn ro nhe page production number
324-04, the page entitled Implicmtions, and the
first item reads: "Secondary users of the brand,
and to a lesser degree past purchasers, need to
be given a reason, either through promot±ons
and/or further line extensions, ~o smoke Capri
more often."
Do you see that?
A. What page is this?
Q. I read that first i~em there from
page 324-08. Would you agree wi~h that, do you
agree with that statement, that kt was true in
about September of 1989?
A. In terms of the secondary user base,
we need to know how they use it mnd why they use
it on a secondary or occasional basis. So to
that extent, if there is an opportunity, if
there's an opportunity to convert~ them to most
oEten, that would be beneficial.
Q. And this indicates t~he way to do
that is through promotions or fur'ther line
extensions, correct?
A. Line extensions as f'ar as occasional
users, it doesn't make sense to m~e. Occasional
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NANCY G. NAUOMTON - CONFIDENTIAL
users smoke you for a reason on ~n occasional
basis not because you don't offer them the right
style. Past purchasers, maybe those would be
appropriate and maybe they wanted a differsnt
style.
0.
promotions?
A. A promotion may be m way of getting
occasional users to purchase you more frequently.
Q. And Capri used a great deal of
promotions when you worked on the brand, correc£?
A. Yes, we did promote the brand.
Q. More heavily than your competition,
correct?
How about the other aspect,
time
frame.
MR. GOULD: 0bJec~ion, lack o£
Throughout the entiEe time frame
Capri has been on the market that you worked on
it. •
A. I don't know that I"d agree with
that. We aggressively supported it in the
beginning in terms of trial offeEs.
Q. And the beginning would be what time
frame?
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phase, maybe
Lonisiana?
A.
Q,
after that?
A.
Q.
middle of
A.
compete
A.
513
NA/~CY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
During its, you know, initial launch
the first six months cf its launch.
So beginning in Janmary 1987 in
That's right.
And then through each expansion
And those expansions~ finished in the
1988? .
That's correct.
In 1989 what brands did Capri
against?
Capri didn't compete! against anyone.
until the launch of Super Slims i.n 1989. We drew
smokers from slims brands were ouLr primary
source, but because ef its unique~ nature and
being one brand in a segment, it
compete directly with anyone.
Q. In 1989 what brands
compete indirectly against?
A. Well, Capri drew
pretty wide range of brands.
slims brands were the
really didn't
did Capri
smo,kers from a
AS I mentioned,
primary don.ors.
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donor
100's
most of
Eve.
O.
A.
NANCY G. NAUGHTON
Q. And what brands
A. Virginia Slims,
brand but they had
which I'm assumins
our smokers from.
514
CONFIDENTIAL
would those be?
Salem was a big
the Salem Slim Light
is wher~ we were pulling
we pulled some from
Any other brands
I'd have to look
we were pulling from.
Q. Kow about nonslims, what cigarettes
did Capri compete indirectly against in 19897
A. As I recall, we pulled smokers
from -- some from Marlboro, some from B&H.
That's really all I can recall at~ this point.
Q. In 1989 did Capri p~omote more than
Virginia.Slims?
A. You know, it's hard to say. I
don't -- without knowing what Virginia Slims
spends, but Virginia Slims runs s~ome pretty wide
ranging programs and so, you know, they're an
aggressive -- they're aggressivel.y promoted.
Q. Is the answer then t:hat you don't
know whether Capri promoted more than Virginia
Slims in 19897
in the slims group?
ba~k and see where
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
A. On a dollar to dollmr basis,
know that.
Q. Mow about on a dollmr per shsre
point achieved basis?
Ao I have no idea.
Q. In 1989 did Capri p~omote more
heavily than Salem Slims Light 10)0'S?
A. I don't recall what Salem Slims
Light 100's was running.
Q. How about in relation to Eve, did
Capri promote more heavily than ~ve?
A. I really can't answe~r that without
looking at what Eve was doing an~ I don't recall
what those brands were doing in 1.9~9.
Q. If you look back in Exhibit 738 to
the third page of the exhibit, p~oduction number
324-04, the last research objecti.ve is
"Investigate the impact of the CaLpri 120's
the Summary
that Admar
st6di.es, "120's
I don't
introduction."
Do yo~ see ~hat?
Yes, I do.
Q. If you look then at
Findings on page 324-07, you see
determined in the recontact
of
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CON~IDENTIAL
introduction appears to have had a significant
impact on Capri." Do you see thmt?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that conclusion correct in
September 1989?
A. Without looking at ~he data, I don't
recall. We were watching that to see hew -- we
expected some cannibalizing of iO0's from
Q. Let's go ba~k to Exhibit 736 if we
can, that's a document that contains planning
considerations, target audience, and the second
bullet item reads, "In 1993 key smoker groups
should be targeted to maximize franchise
growth." Do you see
A. Yes.
Q. And the
smokers 21
that?
three Hreups have female
to 35, female smokers 36 to 44 and
black female smokers. Were those ~hree groups in
fact targeted in 19907
A. In our media plan t~ey would have
been covered. I believe the primary audience was
21 to 35, but 36 to 44 and black female smokers
would have been included in the plan coverage.
Q. So in about the middle of 1989, was
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517
NANCY G. NAU~MTON CON~IDENTIAL
it your view that these three groups were key
smoker groups that should be targeted?
A. They're important g~oups of female
smokers. The concept here was t~at there may be
a way to appeal to them in a morel precise way
based on that age difference.
Q. That's all a part o~[ focusing the
advertising and promotions?
A. That's right. And i.n a women's
service book, you might run a loses, or more
conservative creative to appeal t;o the 36 to 44
versus the 21 to 35 where you wouLld run something
a little more aggressive on a st~le basis.
Q. So in the middle of 1989, you were
already starting to plan to focus~ your message to
certain target audience, right?
A. That's right.
Q. And that would be do,no through
communications directly to the co,nsumer, right,
as opposed to trade advertising o,r --
A. That's right.
Q. If you'll turn the page in
Exhibit 736, production number 1709, you
"Planning considerations for consumer
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NANCY G.
communications."
A. Yes.
Q. The
518
NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
Do you see that?
second item reads, "In 1990 the
the impact o£ all
and there are two items
is, "Lmrger more unique
focus must be to maximize
consumer communications,"
listed underneath. First
out o£
presentation through multiple pa~e units,
home extensions." Do you see thmt?
A. Yes.
Q. What's an out Of ho~e extension?
A. It's an extension that's added to a
14 by 48 billboard. It gives yo~ a more
~ut of home --
b~illboards with
tha, n the
impactful presentation.
Q. Are those types of
let me start a~ain.
Are these types of
the extensions more expensive
traditional billboards?
There's an upcharge for extensions.
And the reference he,re to multiple
that would be magazin.e spreads?
That's right.
And magazine spreads are more
than single paSes, corr'ect?
Ao
page units,
A.
Q.
expensive
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519
NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
A. That's correct.
Q. So this bullet item in Exhibit
736
would require additional expenditures
a base level of
extensions,
A.
Q.
else and
putting it
A.
Q.
Exhibit 736 whether at this poin~
re-allocate funds or to increase
previous year?
A. In relation to what?'
Q. The 1990 plan at this point in the
planning process compared to what~ was done in
1989, either as a budget or an ac~tual.
compared to
not using
not using spreads and
correct?
Or just a re-allocation.
Taking money from s~mewhere
into this?
Right.
Can you tell from the remainder of
the plan was to
funds over the
~ don't think I can tell from here.
Q. If you look on page 1713 o£
Exhibit 736, you see the first bu~llet item, "1990
spend per plan is $76.6 million"?'
A. Yes.
Q. If you will turn the~
production number 1714, there's a
page to
spend preview
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NANCY G. NAUGRTON - CON~IDENTXAL
of how that's broken out?
A. Yes.
Q. And you'll see the magazines
millio~ out of 46 million for media?
That's right.
So magazines were a
the media budget?
That's right.
And out of home is
percent Of
A.
Q.
46?
520
are 25
little under 50
1.4 million Out Of
A. That's right.
Q. Which is about 30 pe~rcent of the
media budget?
A. Yes.
MR. HINTZ: I thin.k we've been
going about an hour and I need to, set an exhibit
so we can take a short break now.
(Recess taken.}
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. Ms. Naugh~on, could [you find 738,
think that's the one that'S open in front of you,
the page with production number 324-05, where it
mentions secondary users.
In the time frame of this study, the
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NANCY O. NAUG~TON - CON~IDENTIAL
conclusions about secondary user~, I beliove you
testified that yo~ need to know how and why
people were secondary users. Wh~ would you need
to know that information? Why did you need to
know it in that time frame?
A. In terms of if you ~ave an
opportunity to convert them to most often or
not. If for example a smoker li~es to smoke
Capri on the weekends, then that's what they
p~efer and that's how they want to do it and
there might not be that much of a,n opportunity to
convert them to most often. But there's nothing
w~ong wiUh having an occasional u.ser base.
But the more occasional users you
to most often, the better for the
can convert
brand?
A.
O.
it's a nice opportunity.
So those people repr,esent a~
opportunity to expand the franchi:se?
A. Yes.
O. And expand your
terms of a percentage?
A. That's correct,
users have the same effect.
starve of market in.
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ef these
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A.
that in my
522
NANCY G. NAUGETON - CONFIDENTIAL
How did Capri try to get conversion
secondary users in the "89/'90 time
The only offers tha~ I can recall
opinion worked towards moving
secondary users into most often were multiple
pack offers. I believe in that time period, we
did three pack tape-one, multiple pack.
Q. Are there any other things included
in multiple pack offers sc I know what that
includes, such as buy two, get one free; is that
a multiple pack offer?
A. That's correct.
Q. What else would be m multiple pack
offer that was done for Capri?
A. Those are the two I recall using.
Q. There was no buy-one~-set-one-free?
A. Oh, yes, we did buy-one-get-on~.
But giving the consumers five pac:ks is a little
bit better opportunity ~o get the~m to use it more
frequently.
Q. Now, we left Off beflore Zhe break in
Exhibit 736 talking about whether' the 1990's
spend preview was an increase, de,crease or the
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523
I NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTYAL
2 same as 1989. Let me show you Exlhihit 667 and
3 see if we can answer that.
4 If you'll look on pa!gs 0824 of
5 Exhibit 667 and compare that with Exhibit 736,
6 there's a page 1714, you'll see tlhat the '90
7 budgets in the Lwu ~hiblt are th,e same at 76.6,
8 do you see that?
9 A. Yes.
i0 Q. And if you'll turn t~O the page 1713
ii in Exhibit 736, you'll see there'~s an A/P split
12 of 60/40 recommended?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And in Exhibit 667 t~ere's also a
15 60/40 A/P split recommended for 1990, do you see
16 that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. 1989 authorized budget was $72.4
19 million, do you see that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the 1990 budget ~n Exhibit 667
22 is 76.6, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So that was an increase in 1990
25 compared to 19897
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONF'IDENTIAL
A. That's correct.
Q. And the A/P split is changed in 1990
to 60/40 from an A/P spl±t of 50/H0 in 1989, do
you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Why was that change recommended,
more advertising, less promotion?
A. I do~'t recall exactly. In my
opinion, g~ven you're moving more into -- you
know, out of the ~±g tr±al stages, you might want
to move more money into magazines.
I'm sorry, I couldn' t hear that.
A. The requirement for ~trial generation
as the brand becomes mere establi~shed may have
been more but at this point -- th~at's just my
opinion at this p0in~. I don't r,ecall exactly
the rationale that went Into the ~A/P spli~
change.
Q. So an increase in ad~ertleing
relative ~o promotion will do wha~t for the brand?
A. Well, the 50/50 A/P isplit -- when
you're looking at launch expenses, case
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
when you're launching; you have m lot mo~e trial
offers, trade incentives.
Q. But in 1989, Capri was already
lainched everywhere?
A. Right.
Q. So why would ~here Lave been an
overstatement in 19897
A. Well, to the extent o£ trial
generation up front, you can have~ more promotion
to the extent of, in a new brand.
sO your understandinLg now of the
is that that was done~ for trial
Oo
50/50 split
generation?
A.
opinion. I
Like I said, this is: just my
don't recall without seeing what our
rationale was for moving to a 60/40 from a 50/50.
Q. But the 60/40 move w,ould indicate to
you there was less interest in generating trial
and more interest in creatlug ove.rall awareness
through advertising?
A. Again that was just an opinion, at
But that's correct, 'what I've -- I
to make sure I understa:nd what you're
this point.
0.
JUSt wan~
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONF'IDENTIAL
saying about the change and what the reasons
would be for the change.
A. When you start out w, ith a new brand
and it's relatively new, you tend. to do a lot of
trial generating on a real broad base because you
dun'~ know where it's going to co,me from, you
don't know what kind of stores yo.u're going to
pull from. As you get a little m~ore established,
we know we were looking more at C! stores, there
are certain types of outlets we wouldn't promote,
so you set tighter on where you are going to
spend these dollars.
So your focus on tri.al generation is
maybe a little tighter than it was because you
know a little more about your consumer and the
type of retail accounts you're going to focus on.
Q. Would a change empha~sizing more
advertising tend to allow you to imaintain your
franchise rather than expand it?
A. I think it could do ]both on an image
driven brand like Capri.
Q. What got us into thils comparison
between 1989 and 1990 was whether there was an
increase, decrease or the same in recommendations
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONF'IDENTIAL
being made in this time frame of Exhibit 667,
which is June 1989.
And £rom this, is ±C. your
understanding that at that time t~here was going
to be an increase in the 1990 bud[get?
A. From these two docum%encs, it appears
that the 76.6 came from the plan so that must be
the 1989 flve-year plan. Given t.his plan, I
would assume that's what that mea.ns.
On this document whe~re it says 72.4
of 1989 authorized --
Q. Yes.
A. -- authorized contai.ns any
accounting adjustments so that's not the actual
budget, it's where we are as of w,henever this
document was written, including a~ny accounting
for example, prior y'ear coupon
adjustments,
adjustments.
Q.
you and the
So at this point in June of 1989,
brand were using as a 1990 budget
figure the five-year plan number?
A. Well, that's - I'm Just assuming
that from this first bullet, that the 1990 spend
per p]an is 76.6.
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
Q. And which exhibit a=e you looking
at, that's in --
A. That's in 736.
Q0 Okay.
A. On 1713.
Might. Just so we're clear, I'm
looking at DX 640 and I don't have a copy Zor you
but it's the 1989 five-year plan for 1990.
There's a listing of 76.6 so if t:hat helps close
that chapter.
in June 1989, you h~d already
@tarted to learn that you wanted to target your
audience, right?
A. That's true.
Q. And you wanted to be~come more
efficient in your spending, right-?
A. I think we were lear'ning more about,
you know, who we were attracting.
Q. Yet at this time, yo~u were using
budget numbers that had been esta.blished over a
year prior to that,
A. Well.,
getting into these,
really very initial
right?
that's true, b,ut as you start
as you can see that this is a
thinking sort Of document.
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NANCY @. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
And Just considering where you st:art is really
the five-year plan, not next yea~; I mean, that's
not uncommon to start there and m%ovs away from it
as the plan is discussed.
Q. So you start with t~e five-year plan
which called for an increase in s~pen~ing for
19907
MR. GOULD: Object~ion. She's
already testified whether that is~ or is not an
compared to various plams.
You can answer. It's an objection
as to form.
THE WITNESS:
I do~n't know what
I'm juLst -- from this
that ~as actually the
the 1989 plan number was.
authorized I can't tell if
plan.
BY MR. HINTZ:
Let me show you my c!opy of
Exhibit 621 which is unmarked. T'his is the 1989
media sales promotion marketing s~pend, total for
the year, 69 million, do you see that?
A. And that's probably an actual
number.
Q. Yes, that is an actu.al number.
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONF'IDENTIAL
A. That again goes back. to the same
comment I had about authorized. To the extent it
has prior coupon adjustments in it, the actual
plan number would be different than what we
actually ended up with.
Q. Then let's take the situation where
compared to the actual expenditure in 1989, this
planning number of 76.6 represents an increase
over what was actually spent in 1989, correct?
A. That's correct to the extent that
there wasn't a prior yeax coupon .adjustment
because a prior year coupon adjustment will
actual arti£icially. It's a credit.
reduce your
Q. And what's the magnitude of prior
year coupon adjustments dollarwis,e?
A. It depends on the briand. On
something like Capri, to the extelnt that they ran
a lot of FSIs that didn't redeem to what they
budgeted, you could get a large o]ae of the -- I
don't know if we had any in 1989 ,or not, but I
can'~ confirm the numbsr value, y~ou know, knowing
what the prior year was.
Q. Do the prior coupon ~adjustment show
up in ~he budget mat?
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NANCY G.
A. They should or at
I don't know if they did
Q. Would you look at
NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
le~ast they do
then.
E~hibit 733?
Why
don't you use my copy and I'm goi.ng to get your
copies bound so it's easier.
A. On ~he prior year co, upon adjustment,
they made a million dollars prior: year coupon
adjustment in December. It looks~ like the total
prior year was 2.4 million in 198~9.
Q. Okay. And that's £r~om which page,
what production page?
A. 301.
Q. And those adjustments tend to
obviously drive the actual number' down because of
their credit?
A. It can be down or up,. If you're
over-redeemed, it would increase your authorized.
MR. HINTZ: I'll a.sk the reporter
to mark as Exhibit 739 a multipag'e document
bearing production numbers BWT316-1614 to 1624,
titled Capri 1990 Plans.
(Defendant's Deposition Exhibit-No.
739 was marked for identification.. Exhibit
retained by counsel.)
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CON~IDENTIAL
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. If you look at the Last page of
Exhibi~ 739 you'll see that it's a document ~hat
you prepared?
A. That's right.
Q. I've notice~ on a l~t ot the
documents, the numerical prefix in this case is
0112, is it your understanding t~at those
documents numbers increase as time goes on, each
new document you create from day to day gets a
higher number?
A. I have no idea.
Q. If you turn to the ~age with the
production number 1616, the first bullet item
talks about building awareness a~ong the target
audience,
A.
do you see that?
Yes.
Q. So at this point whi. ch is about July
which you'll find on the imst page of the
you were already planning to target your
right, which we've talked about before?
That's right.
The last portion of this first
item reads, "Defend agains~t competitive
1989,
exhibit,
audience,
A.
Q.
bullet
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON -
ultra slim entry." What is
to?
A. I think at
a PM Super Slims entry.
533
CONF'IDENTIAL
that in reference
that point we had more of
Q. If you turn to page 1617, the first
Pullet item Degins, "Targeting key smoker
groups," and there are three grou>ps listed. Do
you see that?
A~ Yes.
Q. And those are the three groups we
looked at earlier, correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. If you turn to the page 1619, youJll
see the spending strategies overview with the
total spend of 75.4 million, do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's a slight reduction from
the 76.6 we were looking at earli.er, correct?
plan?
A.
0.
advertising
That's right.
What caused that red'uction from
I don't recall at this point.
The split shown for 1990 is 56 to 44
to promotion and that's a change from
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CONF'IDENTIAL
that right?
NANCY G. NAUGHTON
what we saw earlier of the 60/40; ~s
A. That's right.
Q. And why was that cha.n~e
A. I don't know at this.
Q.
72.3 million,
A.
Q. And comparing at least the estimate
to the 1990 planning number hers, the index of
104 indicates that there's an increased plan for
1990 over that estimate; is that correct?
made?
point.
The 1989 estimate he:re is shown as
do you see that?
Yes.
to have
A.
Q.
A. That's correct.
Q. The media split ~rom~
on page 1619 of Exhibit 739 shows
increasing at an index of 135 and.
increasing at an index of 104; is
That's right.
SO both of those by
increased expenditures?
That's right.
the last entry
magazines
out of home
that right?
this plan were
Let me hand you what's been
previously marked as Exhibit 669. If you'll turn
to the last page, you'll see that this is a
document that you prepared and it's dated August
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3rd,
page
NAUGHTON
DO you see that,
in Exhibit
What is
Do you
follows the previous page that
exhibit which is 999?
A. Yes.
MR. HINTZ: Mr.
have objection if we add page
exhibit when it's prepared?
NANCY G.
1989.
I000
A.
0.
MR. GOULD: No.
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. The only reason I
is to show you your initials
frame of August 1989, do you
A. Yes.
Q. So we've been going
CONFIDENTIAL
the -very last
669?
the last pag.e?
see that numerically
it
535
page,
you have in your
Gould, would you
i00 0 to that
show that to you
and .give you a time
see that?
through June and
July and now we're in August.
If you would look please to the page
marked 979 of Exhibit 669, do you have that page?
A. Yes.
Q. That shows an A/P split of 56/44
which we looked at and a spend of 75.4 which is
the same as the previous document from July; is
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON
that right?
A. That's right.
Q. And on page 977 of E:xh~bit
you'll see the same three target smoker
sorry, key smoker groups?
A.
Exhibit 669?
Capri had been couponed at a hlgh~er level
its competition?
A. Promoted you said.
Q. Promoted. All rlght:.
about couponln~. The third bulle~t
talks about how Capri was coupene~d
C0NF'IDENTIAL
536
That's right.
Would you turn to pa.ge 973 of
We talked earlier a.bout whether
than
Let's talk
item here
significantly
higher than slims competition, do, you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that compor~ wl.th your
recollection of events in 19897
A. We did coupon quits heavily in
1989.
Q. Significantly higher' than slims
competition?
A. It was definitely higher and that
was -- in that I think we saw it listed in some
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NANCY G.
of the different
higher. Whether
NAUGHTON CON~IDENT!AL
tracking stndies~ we were
537
statistic:ally significant
or not I don't know, but As a percentage it was.
Q. This doesn't mentio~ statistically;
your document was significantly ~igher, correct?
M~. GOULD: I'm go;ing to oDject.
This precise question of this pre~cise exhibit was
asked at the previous deposition at page 144.
Yo~ read the same t~ing to the
witness in that deposition: "Evem though the
percentage of Capri stock coupon is significantly
higher," you read the same thing and you asked
questions about it. We covered t~his exact same
ground and this exact same quote before.
MR. HINTZ: That's~ two different
things you just said. One is thmt I asked the
precise question and we found thmt's incorrect,
but we did cover this ground and we're covering
it again.
MR. GOULD: You'r~ covering the
same exhibit, the same page, the same quote over
a~ain.
MR. HINTZ: Now, Let's see --
MR. GOULD: This i.s a repetition,
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NANCY G. NAUGKTON
not a continuation of the
MR.
Gould, take your
and relax.
CONFIDENTIAL
538
pTevious deposition.
HINTZ: That's right, Mr.
nap. Lean back, close your eyes
MR. GOULD: I'm wa.iting for you to
ask something new, but I' ±i put the transcript of
the witness in front of her so she can see how
she testified before and if she has anything to
add to what she's testified to be:fore --
MR. HINTZ: That's enough,
Mr. Gould, I object to your attitude. We'll
break for lunch now.
I'm sick and tired e,f your attitude
interfering w, ith my
do~e it to Ke~isey Nix, you've
you've done i.t to every
and your methods of
deposition. You've
done it to Mr. Lee,
single attorney from FiSh & Neave,. It is
discourteous and it is improper.
We'll be back here a.t 1:15 and we'll
invite you to join us. We'll be back as close as
we can to 1:15.
(The deposition ef N[ANCY G. NAUGHTON
was adjourned at 12:35 p.m., for a luncheon
recess.)
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APPEARANCES
ALSO PRESENT:
REPORTED BY:
OF COUNSEL:
(P.M. SESSION)
JOHN M. HINTZ, ESQ.
JAMES W. GOULD, ESQ.
KEITH TAKEDA
JOYCH G. ABELES
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(The depositio~ of NANCY G. NAUGHTON
was resumed at 1:30 p.m.)
NANCY G. NAUGHTON,
having been previously dul~ sworn,
testified further as follows:
EXAMINATION CONTINUED
Ms. Naughton, let me show you
Exhibit 619 and ask you to turn ~o page with
production number 308-483.
You'll see there under Capri 1990 a
budget marketing spend of
see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's
$75.4 n~illion, do you
at before lunch in Exhibit 669,
million for a total spend?
A. Yes.
Q. Exhibit 669 was
Exhibit 619 was in November 1989, just so you
have the time frames in mind. Do you
the front of Exhibit 619?
the same number we looked
mamely $75.4
in August 1989 and
see that on
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON -
A. Yes.
Q. That indicates,
541
C0~FIDENTIAL
fro~ the comparison
to the previous page on Exhibit 6;19, that the
75.4 million budget for 1990 was an increase over
the estimated 1989 marketing spemd of 70.5,
correct?
A. That's right, which included the
120's launch.
Q. I'm sorry. Which imcluded the 120's
launch?
A. The 75.4 for 1990 a~d that has that
38 percent expansion on it.
Q. Some 120'8 were incl_uded in 1989,
correct?
A. Yes, just sort of llke maybe 7
percent. I think Florida was in there and the
continuation of Louisiana.
Q. Let me hand you a document we marked
at yonr last session, I believe, Exhibit 672,
which has your initials and indicates a date of
October 6, 1989, do you see that?'
A. Yes.
Q. This document, Exhi~i~ 672, was
prepared right after the Vlrgini~ Slims Super
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONIFIDENTIAL
Slims launch, correct?
A. That's right.
Q. If you'll turn to th,e second page of
the exhibi£, 1498, under the headling Fourth
Quarter Activity -- and so Mr. Go~uld is clear and
he's following along, on page 202 of your former
"Are the items listed
already i:n the budget for
transcript I asked you:
here programs that were
the fourth quarter?
"Answer: That I don"t know without
looking at the budget. I mean, tlhis could be a
recommendation at this point."
Do you see that on line 23 on page
202 through llne 4, page 203?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me hand you Exhi[bit 634 and ask
if that helps you in answering th.e question that
I posed in your May 14th depositi.on about wheKher
the items in Exhibit 672, page 1498 were already
in the budget or were additions t.o the budget.
A. This is the budge~ v'ersus, you know,
was lai.d out whenever
It was like it was in
a buy~olne-get-one-free
I don't -- this is how it
the budget was submitted.
the plan, given ~here was
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budgeted
and this was
in for about
Q.
where yon're
543
NANCY G. NAUGHTON CON'FIDENTIAL
in the fourth quarter, a free product,
estimated at 2 million and that was
a million four hsre.
Can you be a little :more speci£ic
looking and picking things off when
you make a reference like "here"?
A. It's on the fourth p.age including
the title page, let's see, 470. .Anyway, it's the
fourth page of this.
Q. The numbers I
side there.
A. 308-426.
Q. That's the 1991 budg.et.
think .are on the other
This would
be fourth quarter activity in 1989, right? I
believ~ that 1989 starts on 432.
A. I can't tell. This is an initial
budget and they have again this budget -- for
example, within this budget, for ,example, it's
got money in the feurth quarter f,or sweepstakes;
a lot of these will change by lin,e items so I
can't tell.
There is some fgee p:rcduct in
September/October. I can't reall~y tell.
Q. The free product, is that on page
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
434 Of Exhibit 634?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's the buy-one-get-one-free
product --
A. Right.
Q. -- in September of k47 and change?
A. Right. And they go into October,
but we can't because this is the way -- when they
ran the budget or they wsre layimg it out the way
they thought it would hit, that doesn't always
work out when you're laying a budget out early in
the prior year.
Q. I understand that but this is the
1989 budget In Exhibit 634, ish'~ it?
A. That's right.
Q. So the question I a~ked you on May
14th and the question I'm asking you today is
wh~th~r the items in Exhibit 672 were in this
budget or not?
A. I'm just suggesting that while this
is the budget by line item, ~t cmn change during
the year. The budget by program can -- sometimes
you make deviations, 5hat milllom dollars in
buy-one-get-one-free in July mlg~t in fact have
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
hit in October. I don't know fro~m looking at the
initial budget.
Q. Working wi~h the bud.get that you
have in front of you, which is the only thing you
have to work from, Exhibit 634, are the items in
Exhibit 672 on page 1498 in that ibudget or not?
A. They could easily be. There's a
million dollars in buy-one-get-one-free in local
programs in July, in the local mo,dule. That
could easily be running in this
buy-three-get-three because the field can
allocate it. When we lay out the initial budget,
it really gets expensed when it
laying it out this way.
So that could have
s[hips versus
r'un in October.
I can't tell from local funds, local programs in
terms of field promotional funds. Those were
decided by the field but those co'uld be some
carton coupons that they're runni:ng, display
plus -- and the coupon redemption field line,
there's a million six in Septembelr. And that,
have got that redemption running ~all the way out
through the fourth quarter. That could easily be
the coupons. Bu~ this isn't brok,en out in that
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CON~FIDENTIAL
kind of detail that I can tell wheat those are.
Q. This being the budge~t?
A. This budget.
Q. Well, the budget, on,e of
the items
you looked at was the buy-one-get-one-free on
page 434?
A. That's right.
Q. And Exhibit 672 talk~s about a
buy-three-get-three-free, correctS?
A. The budget isn't lai~ out by
buy-three-get-~hree or buy-two-ge~-two. The
buy-one-get-one concept to us meams a comp deal.
Q. You indicated there was some
couponing shown in the budget for September.
That's on page 345?
A. Well, I was looking ~t 343. It
actually shows you -- I don't know what's ~n
field promotional funds, local programs, like
there's 400,000 there in SeptembeE. I don't know
what that is, but oftentimes it could be
couponing.
Q. That 363,000?
A. Yes. That's what it looks like.
Q. Or 383 -- 36~, 383, one or the
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other?
A.
Exhibit
and a
NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONIFIDENTIAL
547.
Yes.
And the coupons that are shown in
672 are the $2.00 coupons at 2 million
free coupon for 1.4 million, right?
A. Yes.
Q. For a total of 3.4 m~illion, right?
A. Yes.
So the amount in the budget in
Exhibit 634 would account for maybe --
Ao Then you get on the ~next page,
coupon redemption field local pro!grams. Now, the
way a budget would lay that out, [I don't know
when these coupons were actually ~shipped and
that's when they're expensed, but there's, you
know, heavy coupon shipments in June, July and
then again in September.
So when you recap something like
that, you know where they were spmnding their VPR
money. It's hard to say what they had
year-to-date here from the budge~;; I can't do it
from the budget.
Q. Let me ~o back to th~ question I
asked you on May 14th -- it wasn'~ the question I
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
asked, it was the answer you gave,
You said you needed ~to look at the
budget, now we've leoked at the budget. What
else would you need to be provide~d to determine
whether the items in Exhibit 672 ~on page 1498
were in the budget or were added ~as an
expense, and I should say were
to be added?
I can't tell if this is incremental
This being 672 is in,cremental from
634?
This is the budget, yes.
At your last session you said you
suggested
A.
from this.
the budget
A.
Q.
needed the
items are
the numbers
budget and now you havre it and that's
not good.enough.
A. I canJt tell. The l:ine
not broken out by these programs and
are different -- I can'~ tell.
Q. I'm trying to determine if you can
or can't do it. And if you can d~ it, I'd like
to get you to tell me how because it's a matter
of some importance; and if there'~ nO way to do
it, then that's your answer.
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON -
Would the
that would help?
A. Well, the problem
incremental, you w~uldn't know.
a stand alone. If we saw the
actuals misht -- I don't know.
549
CONIFIDENTIAL
actuals sh~ow us anything
is: if this is
This is sort of
act.uals and
I mean, I
the
couldn't look at a lump sum actual and know.
Q. In Exhibit 672 on the same page
we're lookin~ at, page 1498, ther'e's an asterisk,
"Includes one million of 120's Florida support.
All 100's OOH canceled for fourth, quarter.,
Do
you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the budget for 1989 provide for
canceling all of the out of home in the fourth
quarter?"
A.
laid out,
In the budget when it was initially
there was out of home iln October and
November and December.
Q. From the budget, you can't tell
whether it's 100's or 120's, corr~ect?
A. No.
Q. Lookin~ at the budge~t, make sure
we're on the same page, the media 1989 budget,
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CON]FIDENTIAL
page 433 of Exhibit 634, is that what you're
looking at?
A. That's correct.
Q, October, November an~ December each
have total media spends of over $2 million,
correct?
A. That's right.
Q. For a total of well over
$6 million
fcr that quarter?
A. You mean the total m~dia in terms of
fees and production and space?
Q. Yes.
A. That's right.
Exhibit 672 on page ~498 shows media
of 4.4 million, do you see that?
A.. That's right.
Q. Is it fair to
the numbers in Exhibit 672, for media were
recommended to be incremental to what was in the
don't think
say baaed on that that
budget?
A.
there.
less
could say thaifrom
Q. Even though the numbers in 672 are
than what's shown in the budget?
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CON~FIDENTIAL
A. Sure, but thls budge.t was as of
February 24th, 1989.
Q. And it's the only budget we have to
work with so --
A. But the budget is what it is. It
was laid out in February 1989, th,at does not mean
that come, you know, October 6, t[hatXs what we're
spending. It just doesn't work tlhat way.
Q. I understand that. I'm looking at
it in terms of looking af the bud!get and
comparing what came later. I'm t:rying to figure
out if the items in Exhibit 672 w,ere incremental
recommendations to the budget or ~if they were
already in the plan that was made up in February
of 1989.
A. I can't tell from this.
Q. Okay. If you turn t~o Exhibit 672,
the last page of the exhibit, production number
1499, the first bullet item is, "(Capri heavily
promoted at retail during fourth quarter." Do
you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that in fact don~?
A. I don't recall a~ this point.
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the 1989
actuals?
A.
Q.
5S2
NANCY G. NAUGHTON CON[FIDENTIAL
Could we find that o~ut by looking at
budget and comparing it ~to the 1989
Would you do that,
pilease? In
Exhibit 634 you have the budget a~nd Exhibit 733
are the actuals. And in 733, cor:rect me if I'm
wrong, the fourth quarter would b~e behind tabs
i0, ii and 12, October, November ~nd December.
And again, correct m~e if I'm wrong,
but the way that you would look to determine
whether Capri was heavily promote~ at retail was
to look at sales promotion specifiC?
A. Right.
Q. Monthly budset repor~ for each of
those months?
A. That's right.
Q. Was Capri heavily promoted during
the fourth quarter based on your ~eview of
Exhibit 733?
A. Well, it looks llke we had coupon
activity based On lookln~ at the ~oupon
redemption field line. We also had a tape-on of
3.2 million that was purchased in October. And
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there was
each month.
it.
Exhibit 733
553
NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CON]FIDENTIAL
some buy-one-~et-one-fr~ee shipped in
And that looks like Jthe extent of
DO those expenses sh~own in
confirm the statement in Exhibit 672
that Capri was heavily promoted a~t retail during
fourth quarter?
A. It seems that it was reasonably
supported with bny-one-get-one-fr(ee, some sort of
tape-on activity, as well as some couponing
activity.
Q. Now, is there any wa~ for us to
tell, comparing what was done in ~xhibit 733 with
what was budgeted in Exhibit 634, to determine
whether those expenses were already in the budget
or were incremental to the budget~?
A. Well, it would look ~ike -- just
looking at these two documents, i~ would look
llke it's in there because we're ~ot mver what
our budget was.
And you're looking aZ the total
the budge=?
I'm just looking at ~he total
for sales promotion specific.
number in
A.
December 1989
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CON[FIDENTIAL
Q. Right.
A. Was 38.
Q. I'm sorry?
It was 38 million four total
554
December
303 in Exhibit 733?
A. ~i~ht.
Q.. That's
the fourth quarter,
a~?
And what page are yolu on fo~ that,
Yes, 508-303.
the year-to-d~ate. What
though, that ~e're looking
Let me see if this h~elps. Would
the months, October, November and
each of
December, sales promotion specifi~ budget
reports, looking at the favorable., the variance
column, whether favorable or unfavorable, would
that tell you whether the spend im those mouths
was inside the budget or outside ~he budget?
A. NO, because you can ~a~s time
about
variance like I said, laying this out versus what
you actually spend. I don't thin~ you can do
that.
Q. Let's see if we can ~o back to the
beginning ~hen. Is the budget la~d out to show
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when the
A.
out budget.
Q.
NANCY G. NAUGHTON
expenses will be
Yes. We try
CONFIDENTIAL
incurre~d?
to do tlhat when we
555
lay
So you try to account for the timing
'would be
they would act~ually be shipped
differences between when coupons
purchased and when
out?
That's right.
why can't you comlpare the budget
that contains tho~se timing
It doesn't always wo~rk that way.
get changed, modifie,d. For
Kool has a program r~nning in the
Ao
Q. So
with the actual
differences?
A.
The programs
instance, if
second quarter, we don't want to ~run Capri on top
of it. Those kinds of changes in times happen
all the time. I mean, it's very :rare that your
budget will match throughout the ~year, month by
month.
Q. And all those changels in plans have
to be supported by documents, don't they?
Not necessarily.
Sometimes programs w:ill be shifted
you pick up the phon~e and call
O.
just because
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someone?
A.
was going
NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CON]FIDENTIAL
If I was going to -- if a program
to be del~yed because i~t conflicted
with a KO01 promotion, for exampl~e, [ would tell
my director and my director would make it known
that that was going to happen so ~t~at we would
have a variance in the budget tha~t the timing was
going to change.
And that would be dome verbally?
A. Oftentimes. The only time it would
be documented was if we made a shrift between
brands or a shift between promoti~on and media.
That's tb~ only time a documentat~ion requirement
would be put in place.
Q. And if you made a sh:ift be£ween
brands or a shift between promotion and media,
you would have to issue an MMDR?
A. That's correct.
Q. That's pursuant to B~&W guidelines,
correct?
A. That's right.
Q. So when shifting money within the
brand, you're not required to iss~ue written
documentation on that?
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONfIDeNTIAL
A. Not on a month to momth basis.
Let's put it this way, we did not do that or I
did not do that.
Q. The second bullet item on page 1499
of Exhibit 672 is the Capri media support reduced
in fourth quarter, do you see thaZ?
A. Yes.
Q. What's the reference "reduced"
there, what is that in reference Zo, budget or
previous expense or something else?
MR. GOULD: Objection. The same
question was asked on pase 204 Of the prior
deposition, whether that was in a plan or a
budget, the same quote you read.
MR. HINTZ: I don'~ see that,
Mr. Gould. Page 204?
MR. GOULD: Yes. Page 203, you
read the bullet point about Capri media support
reduced in fourth quarter from DX 672. Then you
asked, is your understanding the ~ame, that that
was already in the plan or the budget.
MR. HINTZ: Uh-huh.. And what's
your point?
MR. GOULD: Objection, asked and
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CON~IDENTIAL
558
answered.
MR. HINTZ: Could X have my
question back, please?
(The pending questlom was read,)
MR. HINTZ: That q~estion was
never asked in the previous deposition. Can !
have an answer to that question, ~lease?
THE WITNESS: What was ~he
question again? X'm sorry.
(The pending questiom was read.)
THE WITNESS: From this I can't
tell. It could be a reference to the budget; it
could be a reference to authorized~
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. Let's see if we can ~eter~ine if
it's in reference to budget. Wou~d you look in
Exhibit 733, the budget mat for m~dia I would
assume is where we need to look, again behind
tabs i0, ii and 12 since we're ta~king about the
fourth quarter.
The October media is on page 282,
is on page 291 and D~cember is on
the November
page 300.
Do you have all of t~nose?
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559
Q.
Exhibit
NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
Yes.
From those three pag~ee of
733, is it possible from ~the variance
column to determine in those months whether the
media support was reduced compared to the budget?
A. You can see versus t~e budget there
mre favorable variances in Octobe~r, November and
December.
media --
A,
0.
And are you looking
total basic
that because if
moved money
I was looking at out o£ home.
Okay. My question I thought was
just directed to media.
A. Okay. Total basic m~dia, October,
~here's a favorable variance, November and
December.
Q. Does that indicate t~at the
reference i~ Exhibit 672, "Capri media support
reduced in fourth quarter," was a~tually done
relative to the budget?
A. I still can't answer
authorized was different, if they
from the fourth quarter into the ~econd quarter
because we wanted to run somethin~ in magazines,
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
I don't know. Just looking at th~s monthly, I
just can't tell.
Q. What does the variance column tell
you in Exhibit 733?
A. That the spend in th~s particular
month is different than what was Budgeted in that
month in the actual budget that was lald out in
February.
So a favorable variamce shows that
you underspent relative to the budget, right?
A. Versus the budget, that's right.
Q. So authorized doesn'~ enter into it;
maybe you did, maybe you dld~'t?
A. Based On these three,, right.
Q. My question is whether Exhibit 73~,
the actual expenditures, show tha~ for the fnurth
quarter media was reduced for Capmi relative to
the budget?
A.
budget, yes.
Q.
Versus those three months of the
Okay, thank you.
Why was that done?
I don't remember.
It was done as a defensive
measure
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
against Super Slims; is that correct?
A. TO reduce media spen~?
Q. Yes.
A. Well, that doesn't m~ke sense to
me. I don'~ know why it wasn't.
Q. It doesn't make sens~ to me either
but it's listed under a defensive program issue
on pass 1499 of Exhibit 672 and I"m trying to
understand if that's an issue in ~he sense of a
recommendation or an issue in the sense of a
problem or something else?
A. It would appear to m~e that that was
an issue in the problematic way g~iven that
tactical ROP support was recommen,ded right
underneath it.
Q. So f~om Exhibit 672, is it fair to
say that in light of the launch of Super Slims
and the corresponding planned red~uctlon in fourth
quarter Capri media spend, you recommended an
increase in ROP expenditures?
A. From looking at this:, I mean, this
recommended using tactical ROP dusting the
launch.
Q. Yes.

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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
A. I don'K remember wha~ was going on
and why this -- I mean, I jus~ dom't recall this
particular presentation. But it Mould appear to
me that that was related to the first bullet or
the second bullet, Capri media support reduced.
Q. It's fair to say whe~ a competitor
is entering the market that you w;ant to get out
and compete against them, right?
Yes, there's always ~a concern when a
direct competitor comes in.
Q. When Super Slims cam,e onto the
market -- and this question I thi:nk was asked and
answered -- you didn't just give 'up and say oh,
they're here, we're going to go a'way; you kept on
your programs, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And Exhibit 672 reco:mmends tactical
ROP to the amount of $6 million?
A. That's correct.
Q. Meaning what you wer'e going to spend
in response to ths competition?
A. That's what this xec~ommendation is.
Q. And that was in the fourth quarter
of 1989 when Super Slims first ca.me out?
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
A. That's right.
Q. Why then did B&W cut the
expenditures in 1990 on Capri in ~ight of Super
Slims competition?
We didn't cut the support. We
focused it and it was part o£ ~he whole strategic
effort of focusing which is a bet~ter use of our
money and more effective than Super Slims -- than
previous programs with a much bro~ader base.
Q. You chopped over $30 million out of
your budget, didn't you?
MR. GOULD: 0bjectlicn, asked and
answered. Objection, argumentati've.
Q. Relative -- 1989 to [1990, the 1990
budget was reduced by half, wasn''t it? Right?
A. We can look at the n'umbers.
Q. Right. And you have them in £ront
of you. In Exhibit 634, the smaller -- and we're
talking media and SPS, the marketing budget,
SPS ibudget as shown
see ~hat, page 436?
right?
A. Okay.
Q. And in 1989 the
on pase 436 was 48.6, do you
A. Yes.
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON
And on page 433, the
for 1989 is $29.7 million, do you
A. Yes.
And the 1990 -- that
my math is correct. In 1990, the
564
CONIFIDENTIAL
media budget
see that?
totals 78.3 if
SPS budget on
page 431 is difficult to read, lo,oks like it's
$26, maybe 28 million, but it's less than 30
million. ~ight?
A. Right.
Q. And the media on page 429 again is
hard to read but given the numbers above it,
looks like it's 25 million?
A. That's right.
Q. So than's somewhere between,
if my math is correct, 51 or 53 m~illion
versus 78 in 1989 on budge~ terms:?
again
in 1990
A. That's correct.
Q. What got us looking at the budget
my question of why the budget~ spend is sb
much
advertising?
A.
Q.
A.
less when you're talking abo~ut focusing your
Why would we spend slo much less?
Yes.
Well, just by defini, tion, being
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONfIDENTiAL
focused and more efficient was part of the whole
strategy that we had been moving ~long in terms
of being more efficient.
ME. HINTZ:
suggestion and start in
on?
ii.
I'll t~ake Mr. Gould's
on a 30(bl) (6) topic.
MR. GOULD: Rhlch ~toplc are we
MR. HINTZ:
II in front
We're ~on topic number
MR. GOULD: I'm pl~aclng paragraph
of the witness. Agai:n, that's
subject to our objections that we put in writing
and handed in prior to this deposition.
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. Ms. Naughton, you Just testified in
your individual capacity about thinking that had
been coming along at B&W about yo'ur ability to
focus your advertising and become more
efficient. And I say that to dsv-elop the subject
matter, net as an attempt to pare.phrase what you
just testified about.
My question is, what. documents
support your statement that B&W i.ntended to focus
its advertising and become more e~fficient in
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
19907
MR.
documents we're
her deposition?
MR.
566
GOULD: This is aside from the
been looking at o~ver the days of
HINTZ: No, sir, includins
those and any others because I do,n'~ believe
those do support it.
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. What documents suppo, rt the fact that
B&W came to the realization that it could target
its spending and be more efficien~t in its
advertising and promotion?
MR. GOULD: Counse~l, she can
answer the question if she can. I do not agree
that's within the 30(b) (6) which just ~alks about
the program.
You're asking now four a specific
citation of documentary support which is not part
of paragraph ii, but certainly shoe can answer to
the extent possible.
MR. H~NTZ: Your o~bJection is
completely out of line and it's t:ypical of the
kind of objections you make where~ you give
speeches in an attemp~ to obstruc:t the
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON -
deposition.
The topic is to
that's what I'm asking about.
documents that support that?
CONIFIDENTIAL
cut spending and
Where are the
She's here to
B&W and I haven't seen them. You
or they don"t
567
represent
either haven't given ~hem to us
exist.
MR. GOULD: They a.re in existence
and perhaps you should bring in your experts to
testify about them.
MR. HINTZ: Mr. Go~uld, I will not
sit here and --
MR. GOULD: You're: makins the
argument that we've not produced them and that
they do not exist.
MR. HINTZ: All ri.ght. If they
exist, le~ the witness identify t.hem.
M~. GOULD: This i.s net part of
her job, to identify -- it is not part of her
job.
it's time
MR. HINTZ: All ri.~ht, Mr. Gould,
for another break.
MR. GOULD: To the~ extent she can,
NOON & PEATT
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONIFIDE~TIAL
MR. HINTZ: Would the reporter
mark the time as 1:56? I'm sorry, but we're
going to take a break because of ~Mr. Gould's
attitude and his continuing to obstruct this
deposition.
MR. GOULD: I'm making an
objection as beyond the scope of 30(b) (6) . She
can testify to the extent she can..
MR. HINTZ: You're wrong, Mr.
Gould. The rules say a 30(b)(6)witness must
testify about everything within her knowledge,
whether individually or whether it's covered by
her knowledge as a representative of the
company. She can talk about everythinH and I
will cite the case that tells you that.
MR. GOULD: I'm no,t directing her
not to answer. I'm saying she will not respond
as a 30(b) (6}, but she can answer" the question.
MR. HINTZ: Wrong, Mr. Gould. She
will respond as a 30(b) (6} because that's what
she's here to testify about. You tell me that
I'm supposed to inform you when she's being asked
as a 30(b) (6) or in her individua~l capacity and
I'm telling you ~'m asking these questions now as

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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
a 30(b) (6).
MR. GOULD: I make objection that
it's not within the scope.
MR. HINTZ: She has to testify
anyway, whether it's within or wh.ether it's not
within the scope. She has to respond to the
question whether it's within the scope of the
30 (b) [6) or not.
MR. GOULD: That, I don't agree
with.
MR. HINTZ: I have~ to get it as a
30[b) (6) and if you're right, it's stricken and
if you're wrong, it comes in.
MR. GOULD: You're: right, and that
will be decided another day. I m~ade my objection
and she can answer.
MR. HINTZ: DO ycuL have the
question in mind?
THE WITNESS: NO.
MR. HINTZ: DO youL think you can
find-it?
(The pending question was read.)
MR. HINTZ: That'sL it.
THE WITNESS: I d~n't -- you know,
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON
I really don't understand the
know every document we wrote.
like I keep a list of all the
through -- all these in terms
570
CONIFIDENTIAL
que~s~ion. I don't
I imean, it's not
documents that go
of .our evolution
and thinking, the Baltimore heavy spend test,
Louisiana versus -- from a spendi~n9 high in
Louisiana and reducing our spend.
The sales record itsel~ would
indicate that what we did was right and 12O's did
well in Florida on a reduced spen.d rate. The
Baltimore programs didn't work well and the
program was unsuccessful. We red.uced our
in the market and held our share
Slims being in the market.
These are the kinds of things -- we
don't write everything down but w'e talk a lot
about the strategic direction of the business and
those kinds of hard facts in termls of Nielsen,
MSA and switcher are there. And those are the
kinds of documents that would indlicate that the
focus spend did work for us.
BY MR. BINTZ:
Q. You mentioned 120's as one of the
things that showed that you could[ decrease your
spend
despite Virginia
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less,
NANCY G. NAUGHTON
Relative to Louisiana,
spend.
Florida for the 120's relative
120's was less, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. The results
correct?
A. Yes.
COnFIdENTIAL
thLe spend in
to~ the Louisiana
with LouLisiana were
Q. You have five times -- ! think it's
twice the CSP in Florida from whaLt you had in
Louisiana, correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Five percent to abou~t two percent?
A. That's correct.
Q. And the index in LouLisiana after a
year was over 100 you exceeded yo~ur objective for
the 120's, correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Your index for Pleri.da after a year
was about 80 ~n relative --
A. I don't remember wha.t we ended up
But it was lese than. you planned?
Correct.
So it didn't meet ob,Jective,
with.
A.
Q.
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A.
Q.
A.
performance
NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONIFIDENTIAL
With reduced spend?
But it was still ver!y
and it made sense.
good
W]hy spend $I10
million to do what you
the Florida?
Q.
answered.
0.
A.
did meet
572
did in Lcu~isiana versus .
It was a good busin,ess judgment.
But it didn't meet o]bjective?
MR. GOULD: 0bjectlion, asked and
Right?
It didn't meet the o]bjective but it
strategic objective in that we built
the share of 120's in Florida for a very
efficient level of spend.
Q. You got incremental !gains?
A. Yes.
Q. And that helped the ,overall brand
because the Capri 100"s share was flat?
A. I don't remember exa,ctly what
Florida looked like but it did im]prove the
overall family performance.
that
Q. We looked last time ;at some document
in 1989 Capri's share was fl~aE?
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
MR. GOULD: Objection,
mischaracterlzes, counsel. The document said
slow, slight growth, whatever, but there was
growth ~oin~ on. You might be co,nfusing it with
your expert's report.
MR. HINTZ: I don' t think so, sir.
MR. GOULD: We hav'e the MSA
figures month by month.
MR. HINTZ: And yo,u tried to
testify last time with this witne~ss about MSA and
if yo~ want to rely on MSA, do th~at in your
brief.
MR. GOULD: You ju.st referred
MR. HINTZ: One ofl these times
you're going to let me finish a s~entence before
you cut me off and I don't know w,hat your reward
will be with that, but it's going~ to be great.
MR. GOULD: You're~ the one that
started
share.
MSA, I
testifying abou~ MSA shar'e and Nielsen
MR. HINTZ: • have~n't mentioned
haven't mentioned Nielsen.
MR. GOULD: Could you point to the
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONIFIDENTIAL
prior testimony about the perform~ance share that
you're referring to and perhaps t]hat would cut
through this?
MR. MINTZ: Thank ~ou, no.
MR. GOULD: I pres*umed you had a
page number since you had so stat~ed that she had
testified tO that.
MR. HINTZ:
break for five minutes.
Mr. Gould,
ask questions tomorrow.
I'm sorry you have
this, MS. Naughton, but counsel
cooperative.
204. ~nd we'll take a
you'll ha~e your ~urn to
t<o go through
i~s not being
(Recess taken.)
BY MR. H~NTZ:
Q. As far as the 120's ~xpansion, when
did that begin?
A. I believe it was in October of 1989.
Q. When did B&W cut its spending on
Capri?
A. You mean the budsets~, 1989 versus
1990?
Q. I'm lookin~ more in ~erms of when in
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
1989 or when in 1990 B&W cut back its spending on
Capri?
A. I don't know.
Q. Can we determine that from looking
at a comparison of the actual expenses in 1990 to
the expenses in 1989?
What may help you is in Exhibit 734,
the first page behind every tab is the monthly
brand contribution and there's a listing for
market spend broken out as media [promotion
specific, coupon spend and then total market
spend, do you see that?
A. Yes,
Q. I believe there's a similar type
page in the beginning of each tab, in Exhibit 733
for 1989. Can you tell the particular month or
months or quarter when Capri spending was cut?
A. I can't tell just from looking at
these documents. I mean, 1990 was less than
1989.
Q. On a yearly basis, right?
A. Right.
Q. But how the monthly spend falls
really dependent on how the programs are
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CON[FIDENTIAL
scheduled which is related to how, the rest of
brands are being promoted as well.
Q. When did B&W obtain results from
Florida expansion as far as share, or any other
objective measure?
We p~etty much watch~ed it
one of our best reads
continuously. Nielsen was
as I recall.
Q. There's a lag
data, correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. How many months is
when they make the measure and
the
the
involv'ed in Nielsen
that lag between
when you get the
report?
A. I'm going to say a couple of months.
Q. Can you be a little :more specific; a.
couple being two, three, four?
A. I believe it's about two months.
Q. So for the Florida 120's, you didn't
get the Nielsen read until December 1989, maybe
even January 19907
A. Yes.
Q. Is that right?
A. That's correct.
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
Q. YOu didn't base any of your
de~isions about the ability to cut spend on one
month's sample, did you?
A. NO, although we have -- once we were
in the market fn November, December, and had
trade acceptance of how things were going and --
those are, you know, more field feedback type
measures. But we felt it was going well.
Q. what types of field :measures were
yon obtaining for 120's?
A. Just in talkins to our field
managers who were selllng in the ip~oduct, talking
to retailers, people going into tlhe market and
what you
looking at it.
Q. And what did those people tell you?
A. Well, I don't recall at this point.
In general, I mean, I don't remem~ber exactly
where we were but I think there w~as a feeling
that you know, 120's were okay.
Q. They were okay; is
said?
A. Yes, they were doing all right at a
reduced level of spend.
So based on that and the Baltimore
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Capri
answered.
578
NANCY G. NAUGKTON - CONFIDENTIAL
B&W concluded that they could cut spend on
by about half?
MR. GOULD: Objection, asked and
You can answer it again.
THE WITNESS: I mean it was a
combination of things As you learn more about
the brand and who we're appealing to, we were
just tightening up all over. I m~ean, to a large
extent, Just all that learning allows you to be
more efficient and start reducing your spend
versus the broad approach that we took when we
initially launched it.
BY MR. HINTZ:
But you knew you wer'e targeting or
should be targeting geographically and smoker
groups in 1989, in the middle of 1989, didn't
you?
A. We were starting to think that
because that's what I'm saying, y'ou are learning
more about the brand the longer y'ou're in the
market.
go along,
1989 from the
So it's a combination, of things. AS you
you svaluate the brand properties.
So you started learn.ing in early
Baltimore heavy spend about the
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579
1 NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
2 ability to cut spend, you continued learning
3 about targeting and efficiency th~roughout 1989
4 and then in the end of 1989, beginning of 1990,
5 you learned about Florida?
6 A. That'S r~ght.
7 Q. And then in 1990, yo.u, Deing B&W,
8 decided tO cut the spend on Capri?
9 A. Well, in terms of what did we need
10 to run the business, yes, we thought w~ could do
~i it more efficiently.
12 Q. You decided you didn't need as much
13 money to get the same amount o~ share?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. Were you expecting to ~row share?
16 A. I think we could grow share, yes.
17 Q. You think you could ihave?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were you expecting to?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. D±d you grow share as --
22 A. As I expected.
23 MR. GOULD: You me.an before or
24 after, we're talking 19907
25 MR. HINTZ: 1990.
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CON[FIDENTIAL
MR. GOULD: All right.
THE WITNESS: Well, we certainly
wanted to but it was a much more difficult battle
because Super Slims was in there doing the same
thing.
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. I understand.
A. But at least we -- e~ven with direct
competition, aggressive direct co~mpetition, we
even held share which would indlc~ate that our
efficiency and our plans were well conceived.
Q. How was the competition aggressive?
A. In terms of advertis~ing and
promotion, my sense is it was rea.lly aggressive
is my opinion.
our initial thought
month period and as
a little bit longer.
Through what time pe~rlod?
Through its launch.
How many months?
I don't remember
was maybe
I recall now,
than
exa.ctly. I know
it would be a three
I think it was
Q. What happened to the~ extra money
was budgeted for Capri in 1990 that was not
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NANCY
used on Capri?
A.
Q.
used, ±t had
right?
A. It
my call. I was
NAUGHT0~
581
CONIFIDENTIAL
I have no idea.
If it was in the bud!get and not
to be reallocated to another brand,
may or may not ~a've, that wasn't
dealin9 with Capri. I didn't
allocating
brand manager
make the decisions of how we were
money within the organization.
Q. But you as the Capri
would have to have given that monkey to someone
else, that was your decision, rig]ht? You wo~id
be the one to say, I have this momey available,
someone else take it, even if you were not
allocating it anywhere in particuilar, right?
A. It's just -- I mean, operationally
it's in the budget. I track to a~n authorized
Of
spend level.
Q. Right.
A. So to the point that that is
modified either up or down, I'm n~ot cognizant
where those chunks Of money go thmoughout the
organization.
Q. Right. Again you're put in the
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
position of speaking for B&W under paragraph
MR. GOULD: Counsel, not as to
that. That is not within paragralph ii where
money is allocated within B&W on nonrednced
circumZerence cigarettes.
I made the objection, about spending
beyond the Capri and again I'm letting her answer
the question, but I object as beyond the scope of
the 30 (b) (6) .
Q. The requirement at B&W is when money
is allocated between brands, an MIMDR is issued,
correct? We talMed about that earlier?
A. That's correct.
Q. Was an MMDR issued in 199D for the
money that Capri had been budgeted but did not
use?
A. I don't know. That 'would not, I
would not initiate that MMDR.
Q. Have you ever seen s'uch an MMDR?
A. I donJt know.
Q. You should know whet[her you've seen
it or not. Bave you seen an MMD~ reallocatin~ --
A. I see many MMDRs in a given year. I
don't recall seeing that one, if .one was written.
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testify about paragraph
notice, Exhibit 707?
A.
Q.
B&W?
A.
NANCY G, NAUGHTON - CONIF~DENTIAL
What did you de to prepare to
ll of the
Nothing.
You didn't review an[y documemts at
Not mt B&W. I revie'wed my
deposition from the May 14th depo;sit±on.
Q. Did you review any d,ocuments with
Mr. Gould or other attorneys?
A. We reviewed some doc~uments
yesterday.
Q. And i~ the documents you reviewed,
did you see an MMDR reallocating ,Capri money in
19907
A. I don't recall seeln!g one.
Q. In preparing to testlify today, did
you talk to anyone mt B&W about B,&W planning to
cut Capri marketing spend and conltinue to grow
volume?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Are you the most knowledgeable
person at B&W ooneerning B&W's pr~ogram to cut
Capri marketing spend and continue to grow
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CON|FIDENTIAL
volume?
A. My role in that was as a brand
manager. Now I can't -- that's t~he extent, as
584
far as my expertise will go, was
side and talking about the strate~gies
brand as I saw them as brand mana:ger.
I can speak to.
Q. And those strategies~ were set forth
the operational
of the
That's all
in all the planning documents tha~t we looked at
this morning, the various exhibit.s which I can
identify for the record, 736, 667', 799, 669 --
A. That's right.
MR. HINTZ: I doub, t ~hat it's
possible for Mr. Gould and I to Rave an exchange
without getting into an argument, but I would say
for the record that I don't think: this witness is
properly prepared t~ testify as a.
witness on behalf of B&W, but I wrill continue of
course and see where it leads.
MR. GOULD: I will. remind you th~
she was co-designated with Mr. Fitzmaurice on
topic ii. We have really the tes:timony of two
individuals at diEfere~t levels w, ithin B&W. So
we must look at the cumulative te~stimony of both
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON
witnesses.
And I do disagree
characterization. Most o~ the
CONIFIDENTIAL
wi.th your
te~stimony you've
taken today is repetitious of wha.t she's already
given in her first deposition tra.nscript and the
exhibits that you put in front of' her in many
cases were in the first deposltio~n transcript.
Certainly a review of all those is part and
parcel of her preparation to testify today.
MR. H~NTZ: AS far" as the
co-d~slgnatlon~ I'll note that
Mr. Fitzmaurice identified Ms. Na~ughton
least a dozen instances as a person who
know more about it than he did.
fr'om my checking,
in at
would
MR. GOULD:
has so testified about
brand manager that Mr.
of.
MR. HINTZ:
testified that
That's correct and she
levels of .detail as a
Fitzmauric.e was not aware
And sh,e has
she does not know ,where
also
the money
went to, she doesn't know if an M~DR was
submitted, she doesn't know a lot of things that
Fitzmaurice didn't know. And our position is
that we're entitled to thDse documents if they
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CON'FIDENTIAL
exist and we're entitled to a prolper
witness who can testify.
I will take whatever she knows and
that's great. But she
need a witness who can
MR. GOULD:
statement as set forth
you as a matter of law
doesn't kn,ow enongh and we
answer the questions.
[ do n,ot agree that a
~n paragra]ph II entitles
to a preci~se
identification of documents or pr,ecise testimony
as to every possible number that you might dream
up as beyond the reasonable scope of a 30(b) (6) .
MR. HINTZ: Mr. Go~uld, you keep
making your objections and we'll ]keep issuing
notices until you and we can r~ac~ some sort of
agreement on proper discovery.
MR. GOULD: If you plan to ~ssue a
notice saying where if anyplace wme any cost
savings from the spend placed within Brown &
Williamso~, that is ~ different t~oplc. And at
such point as you issue such a one, we'll
respond.
MR. KINTZ: Thank ~ou for your
suggestion. Do you have any othems that would
help us fi~d missing information ~hat B&W has not
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NANCY G, NAUGHTON - CONIFIDENTIAL
produced to us?
MR. GOULD: That i:s not a
suggestion of how to find information which you
wrongly allege has not been prcdu,ced.
that's true.
MR. HINTZ: Or it ~may not exist,
MR. GOULD:
I'm su!ggesting the
proper way to proceed as a 30(b) (,6) .
MR. HINTZ: I'll alsk the reporter
to mark as Exhibit 740 a multi-pa!ge document
bearing production numbers BWT316 ~0522 through
0536.
The first page reads, Page
Intentionally Blank, and the secomd page is Capri
1989 Performance.
(Defendant's Deposition Exhibit-No.
740 was marked for identification.. Exhibit
retained by counsel.)
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. Ms. Naughton, if you"ll turn please
to the page with production number 0528? If you
don't mind, I'm going to lean across and find
Rxhibi~ 619 and open it ~o page 3~8-483. 619 was
one of the many exhibits we looked at earlier as
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far as
and it
million,
A.
correct?
A.
Q.
we looked at
copy if that's makes
A.
Q.
Exhibit 740,
588
NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
budget numbers for the Cap*ri 1990 spend
indicates the budget spend~ of $75.4
do you see that?
Yes.
Exhibit 740 similarly indicates a
spend of $75.4 million on pa~ge 528, correct?
That's correct.
And it indicates
a 56/44 A/P split,
That's right.
And that was the sam.e A/P split that
in Exhibit 669. I'll show you my
it easier, correct?
That's risht.
And sc we're clear o[n the date of
would you turn ~o th,e page 0534?
You'll see that shows you launch-to-date
performance for Capri 120's volum~e versus
objectives, November 24, 1989, do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. So from that date it's fair Eo say
that the document Exhibit 740 muslt have been
prepared sometime after November ~4th, 1989,
correct?
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON -
A. That's correct.
Q. So in that time
plan
correct?
A.
0.
for Capri in 1990
589
CONFIDENTIAL
fram~e, the spending
was for 75.4 million,
That's correct.
And that's the
same as the amount of spend
same or roughly the
that "we looked at
this morning during the 1989 time
were planning on using for Capri,
from June, July, August, 0c~ober,
you recall that?
A. For 1990?
Q. For 1990 looking for,ward?
A. That's right.
Q. Is it fair to say th,en that
frame that you
~he documents
November. Do
the
Capri brand group did not begin t,o plan reduced
marketing expenditures for the 19!90 year until at
least December of 1989 or later?
A. Well, no. The 1990 mumber had a
120's component in it where, you ~now, 1989 had a
little one. But the spend on 100~'s for 1990 was
planned as a reduction versus 198!9 and that was
as e~rly as whatever that one was., whatever date
669 was.
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
Q. 669 is August 3rd, 1989. And i'm
sorry, you were -- I'm going to h~ave to ask to
have that read back.
(The preceding answelr was read.)
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. Ms. Nau~hton, I'm goling to ask you
to switch hate a~ain to testify oln behalf of B&W
under Exhibit 707, paragraph 9 whlich reads, "The
required $12 million Capri budget cut presented
to management (BWT316-274 to 48) . "
I should note that t]here's a
typographical error, that should Be 2746 to 48.
MR. GOULD: As parlt of the record,
I'll incorporate by reference the objections
we've made to paragraph 9 both in writin~ and
orally to the deposition of Mr. Fitzmaurlce.
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. Ms. Naughton, what d~d you do to
prepare to testify about paragrap~ 9 in
Exhibit 707?
A.
Yesterday we looked at a document
written I think by Carrie Canavan about a
budget cut.
Q. Let me hand you Exhibit 708;
Capri
is that
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NANCY G.
the document
A.
yesterday?
A.
NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
that you're referrin.g to?
Yes, it is.
Had you seen that do.cu~ent prior to
Not that I recall.
Have you ever discus~sed that
document with Ms. Canavan?
A. No. At this time, I don't -- the
way I re~ember, I was ~ot on Capr:i for a short
period in the beginning of 1990.
What were you doing :in the beginning
of 1990 that you were o£f Capri?
A. ~ was promoted to di~rector of new
products and I only had new products at that time
so there was, as I remember, like a two to two
and a half to three-month period ~here I didn't
have Capri, I just had new produc~s.
Q. Okay. On page 9 of pour May 14~h
deposition, I understand that you said it with
the preface that as best you coul~ recall, that
promotion took place in January of 1991. Are you
remembering now that it's January of 1990?
A. I think it was 1991 -- or 1990 but I
might be wrong. I can't -- this ~f I was manager
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CON'FIDENTIAL
and the reason -- I mean, I wasn' t copied on
and there was a period and it was January to
the middle of March, Susan Osborne was the
director on Capri and Carrie Cana'van was the
592
this
like
manager. So I think it was 1990 .a.nd when we
~iscussed £his yesterday -- that' s why I thought
it was 1990.
The "we" being when [you and
Mr. Gould discussed it?
A. Yes. When I looked ~at this, I
thought that was the period of time and like I
said, it was very short that I wa~sn't on the
brand. I'm sorry, I can't rememb,er exactly if it
was 1990 or 1991.
Q. Other than meeting w:ith Mr. Gould
and looking at this document, Exh:ibit 708, did
you do anythin~ else to prepare t(o testify about
paragraph 9 of the 30{b)(6) notice, Exhibit 707?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Yesterday when you l~oked at
Exhibit 708 with Mr. Gould, did y~u review the
entire document, all three pages?
A. I scanned it.
Q. And from that documemt,.your
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recollection was not refreshed th.at you were
involved in any way with this?
A. No, it wasn't.
Q. So sitting here today, you can
provide no more factual information about what's
contained in Exhibit 708?
No, I can't.
MR. HINTZ: Mr. Gould, I chink
there can be no doubt t~at as hard as
MS. Naughton might try, she can not provide a~y
testimony about ~his 30{b) (6) or ,otherwise, and
to that extent she's no~ a co-designee for
paragraph 9. And I'm not even su:re she was a
co-designee to begin with. She might have been
the only designee.
MR. GOULD: Certailnly it would
appear on the face of the documen~t chat
Ms. Canavan is certainly the most knowledgeable
person about this. However, as you well know,
she is not an employee of B&W and we don't
control her so we can't produce M~S. Canavan, who
to you. She has already
or Mr. Nix an~ that's been
wrote this document,
been deposed by you
done.
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
Perhaps if the quest~ions were
directed to Ms. Osborne, she coul.d have answered
better, but she's also been deposled previously.
She is presently seconded out of B&W and she's
abroad so we can't produce her either.
MR. HINTZ: That's~ not true that
she's not within your control. T'hls documen~ was
produced after the first cutoff d~ate when her
deposition was taken. You could bring
Ms. Osborne -- Ms. Trebilcock, th.at was her
former name, I guess Osborne is h.er current
name.
MR. GOULD: Well, we won't resolve
that today.
MR. HINTZ:
that this witness is no~
the 30 (b) (6) witness.
MR. GOULD:
MR. HINTZ:
indisputable.
There's no dispute
properly designated as
That's your statement.
It's t[he truth. It is
want to spend
that's your
MR. GOULD: If you
the deposition arguing about that,
choice.
MR. HINTZ: You ar!gue when it
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NANCY
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suits you but you won't
doesn't.
MR. GOULD: I
was asked of Mr. Fitzmaurice
and again we can look at the
this.
discuss
595
CIONFIDENTIAL
things when it
August
do recall testimony
about this document
transcript later on
MR. H~NTZ: Fitz~aurlcs t~anscript
25th, page 356, line 25:
"MR. GOULD: Coumsel, I will note
that this appears to be catsgor~ 9 in your new
30(b) [6) deposition notice and we have not
designated Mr. Fitzmaurice to testify about that
area."
To date, we do not have a 30 [b) (6)
witness f~om B&W on paragraph 9.
MR. GOULD: You made your
ststement.
MR. HINTZ: And ~s. Naughto~, so
you know what's going on, this Ls one of the many
things that lawyers do to try t~ find out
information and you do not happen to have the
information through no fault of your own.
I'll ask the report~er to mKrk as
Exhibit 741 a two-page document bearing
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONIFIDENTIAL
production numbers BWT316 2721 to, 2722.
(Defendant's Deposition Exhibit-No.
741 was marked for identification.. Exhibit
retained by counsel.)
MR. HINTZ~ It's a document with
the front page that reads Capri 1990 Revised
Quarterly Budget Splits.
BY MR. HINTZ:
MS. Naughton, have y,on seen
Exhibit 741 before today?
A. I don't know. I may have.
Q. Did you review this ~document with
Mr. Gould yesterday?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. If yon look at the b~ottom left, it's
dated January 25th, 1990, do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And there's
numbers and the letters MCC,
that to be Carrie Canavan?
A. That's correct.
Q. This document indicates a total
advertising promotion and ~D promotion for 1990
of $52.31 million; Is that correct?
one of t~ese identifying
do y©u understand
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONIFIDENTIAL
A. That's right.
Q. Is FD field directed'?
A. That's correct.
Q. So from the document,s that we've
597
looked at today, the total 1990 s~end, this is
the first one which shows a budge~t reduction,
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q~ Actually, I pushed y~u a little toc
quickly. There were some earlier ones of
75.4 millilon, but as far
that's thi~ document
of the
say
generally
5~is was the time
Capri Revisiens to 1990 Budget.
76 milliou and down to
as a larger reduction,
Exhibit 741, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you involved wi~h any
quarterly budget splits? And whem I
involved, I mean in the preparation?
A. The brand manager would
handle the cuts.
Q. And you think that
when you were off the brand?
A. I believe so.
Q. on the second page
listing,
Do you
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - C0~FIDENTIAL
see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you involved in any way in
setting these up or --
A. To the best of my re~collection,
598
not in initially setting these
MR. HINTZ: I'Ii a~sk the reporter
to mark as Exhibit 742 a single p, age bearing
p~oduction number BWT316-1823 ent. ltled ~990 Spend
and the date June 13, 1990.
(Defendant's Deposition Exhibit-No.
742 was marked for identification.. Exhibit
re~ained by counsel.)
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. Ms. Naughton, you see Exhibit 742
initials after that, TE, was
1989
has your initials at the bottom?
A. Yes.
And the
that your secretary at the time?
A. That's right.
Q. Wa~ that your secre~ary in
also?
A. I believe Terry was.
If you would look qu~ickly back to
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
Exhibit 741, after Ms. Canavan's initials,
there's the initials TE, is ~hat the same
secretary?
A. That's right.
Q. So the secretary sta.yed
rather than coming with you when you
j oh?
A.
you know,
Q.
works for?
A. That's right.
Q. Back to Exhibit 742, this iS a
document that you prepared?
1990. Does
of when you
A.
mentioned
off.
you were
A.
599
with the job
left the
No. She can handle ipeople in other,
bra~d groups a~d s~ on.
So she's not restric'ted to who she
like it.
document is dated June
refresh your recollection
It looks
And this
this help
were cn or off the Capri brand?
That would be right 81nee I
it was a short time period that I was
When you wer~ off th~ Capri brand,
off it completely, correct?
That's right.
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what was
A.
Q.
600
NANCY G. NAU~HTON - CON;PIDENTIAL
Meaning you weren't kept advised of
Exhibit 742, shows an
going on?
That's right.
This document,
authorized through May 31, 1990 f.or the
spend of $46.3 million; is that c,orrect?
A. That's right.
Q. Where did you obtain that number
when you prepared Exhibit 742?
A. [ would assume it woluld have come
off oF a May 31st budget mat.
Q. which we have in Exh~Ibit 734, tab 5;
is that correc~ or not?
well, this is -- thi~ is budget.
Q. I mean, I show you E)~hibit 734
because I understood from your earlier testimony
that when you talked about a budget mat, that's
what these kinds of documents are,, but I may have
assumed incorrectly.
A. See, on a monthly -- well, it locks
like we don't have authorized here on these
monthlies. If you look a~ the December 31st,
1990.
Q. Yes. You're looking at the las~
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON
of Exhibit 734?
A. That's right.
line - -
Q.
A.
~uthorlzed
C0~FIDENT!AL
The a~uthorized
601
-- versus budget. Ii mean,
is different than budg'et. Theme
budget numbers;
but not authorized adjusted
we have actual an.d we have budget
for a:~y changes that
yo~ ~ake as you go.
Q. I'm ~fraid --
A. So as far as these a~dJustments,
where I picked up the 46.3, I can't tell from
these.
Q. so is it fair to say that it wasn't
from --
A. It would have been a May mat like
this.
Q. Like ~he kind of pages behind tab 5,
media is at production number 340 and SPS is 341
to 42, those are the May 1990 budget ma~s, right?
A. That's right ~nd ~ha~'s ~ctual
versus budget.
Q. so that did not --
A. For the month and yemr-to-date.
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONIFIDENTIAL
Q. So that does not giv~e authorized?
A. Right. The authoriz~ed number for
the year was -- you could get the authorized
number from the media and promoti~on.
By adding --
A. For the year or --
Q. By adding 17.57~ and 15.5?
A. That's right.
So that would be about 33 million?
A. Right.
Q. Which also is not 46,.3, so is it
fair to say that the authorized m~st have changed
point after June 1990 whem you prepared
at seme
Exhibit 742?
A.
1990 if 1990
That'S correct.
How did ~he authorized change in
-- namely, is there m document
issued that says the authorized hms been changed
to this number?
A. There's a monthly authorized report
as I recall.
Q.
A.
is.
Does that have a particular title?
I don't know what its official title
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authorized?
A.
NA~CY G. NAUG~ON - CONIFIDENTIAL
Does that track actu~al versus
60~
MR. HINTZ: Mr. Go,uld, I don't
Delieve that such a document has iDeen produced.
We would request production o~ all those types Of
~eports.
MR. GOULD: Your r,equest is noted.
I~FORMATION REQUESTED TO-BE SUP~PLIED:
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. Is that report still prepared at
A. I believe authorlzed is oN the mat
now. And that might have been when we didn't
have monthlies with authorizeds.
have ~aken
A.
O.
very little
identify if
A.
Q.
Do you know when
place?
I don't recall.
I'm looking at Exhibit
information le£t on
thaz changeover may
742, it has
Can you
it's from a larger
I can't tel~ what it"s from.
Exhibit 742 lists adjiustments and
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NANCY G.
spend reductions,
A. Yes.
Q. What
indicated?
A. I don't know.
Q. What were the
indicated on Exhibi~ 742?
A. From this,
is.
A.
adjustments
0.
A.
NAUGHTON CON'FIDENTIAL
do you see that?
6O4
were those adju;etments that are
spend :reductions
can't tell what that
were these adjustments and spend
reductions implemented, to your kmowledge?
A. Well, for 1990, we spent pretty
close to that authorized, 14.6 an~ 17.6.
So ~hat would be 32.2?
Plus you got prior year coupon
of 3.4.
And where do you fln~
mark as
those at?
promotio~ specific.
I'll as:k the reporter
single pa.ge bearing
Under sales
MR. HINTZ:
Exhibit 743 a
production numbe~ BWT~I6-1817, entitled Brand
Spend, dated July 27, 1990.
At the same time I'll ask the
reporter to mark as Exhibit 744 a ,document with
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605
NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
production number BWT316-1809 entitled Current
Authorized Marketing Spend, dated August 2nd,
1990.
(Defendant's Deposit~ion Exhibit-No.
743 was marked for iden~ificatlon~. Exhibit
retained by counsel.)
(Defendant's Deposition Exhibit-No.
744 was marked for identification. Exhibit
retained by counsel.)
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. Both 743 and 744 are in front of
you. Let's start with 7~3, thRt'~s a document
from you dated July 27, 19907
A. That's correct.
Q. And it shows a 1990 ~uthorizsd of
$46.3 million, cerrect?
A. That's right.
Q. And that's the same mumber that we
saw as authorized in the previous exhibit,
Rxhibi~ 742?
A. That'S right.
Q. In the right-hand
column, 46.0, what
does ~hat number represent?
A. Just from looking at this, I'm
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A.
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
that would be 1991 brand, spend.
A plan for what you plan on
I don't
just numbered.
606
know what this document is.
document that you prepared dated ~August 2,
A. That's right.
Q. And that document sh~ws the
authorized marketing spend of 43.'731 for 1990,
correct?
A.
~Q.
If you look a~ Exhibit 744, that's a
19907
That's right.
Which is a reduction over the
previous authorized spends that we saw in
Exhibits 742 and 743, correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Now did that reduction come about?
A. I don't know from th~s.
Q. Would there be a docmment that
indicates that the authorized spemdin~ had been
reduced?
A. Well, it could be a ~onthly
adjustment.for a prior year.
Who authorizes ~he au~thorized spend?
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
A. Well, it's really i~ the finance
department, although -- any chan~es or anything
gets filtered through the finance~ department, and
they issue authorized spend.
Q. How do you use that number for your
purposes as brand manager?
A. Well, it's a Number we track to in
terms of our monthly spend.
Q. When you were Capri ]brand manager,
did you get an authorized spend every month?
A. Yes. We had an annuml authorized
number and eventually we got monthlies. We
didn't always have monthlies authorized, that's
very recent.
Q. When you
you track a~ainst the
had menthly authorized, did
budset?
A. Yes, to a certain extent, yes, yon
did. On an annual basis you look for your annual
authorized. That's why in nhis d~cument we don't
have a monthly authorized because we didn't break
it out that way. There was Just a~n annual
authorized,
Q. That's Exhibit 744, just tO make
s~re everyone is on the same page and working to
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NANCY H. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
the right number.
This document, Exhib:it 744, shows a
breakout between first half and s~cond Half 19907
A. That's right.
Did there come a tim~ when the
authorized was broken?
A. NO.
Q. How was this information generated,
if you know?
A.
That would be basically what was
spent that we knew from our budge~ mats aCtUal,
and then what we had projected fo~ the second
half of the year.
Q. So the first half actual tells you
what you spent out of your authorized?
A. That's right. I meam, it's Just
what you've actually spent.
MR. HINTZ: I'll a~k the reporter
to mark as Exhibit 745 a document bearing
production numbers BWT316-2419 to 2426.
(Defendant's Depositi.on Exhibit-No.
745 was marked for identification. Exhibit
retained by counsel.)
BY MR. HINTZ:
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NANCY G. NAUGBTON CON|FID~NTIAL
Q. MS. Naughton, if you.'ll look on the
last page of Exhibit 745, you'll see the date
October 17, 1990, do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. You see Ms.
Canavan'~s in~tials,
a~ain, correct?
A. That's right.
Q. In October 1990, you were still
Capri brand ~anager, correct?
A. See, I think when -- you know, I
was -- I'll check. I'll double-c~eck. I think
it was a 1990 as we talked about ~ith that
document, In 1990 I was promoted directo~
instead of 1991. I just recalled it was
incorrect when I ~irst stated it. I believe
that's the case.
You th~k that pa~e 9~ of your May
14th transcript when you said 1991. probably
should be 19907
believe that's true~, that'S
correct.
exhibits,
and then from June
And we saw from these
we saw one from January
Ehrough August,
last several
for MS. Cana~an
you had
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
involvement with Capri, correct?
A. That's right. As o director then.
Q. AS a d~rector of wh~t?
A. I had Capri and new products,
Q. Capri and new products?
A. Yes,
Q. Are you familiKf wi~h Exhibit 745,
have you seen it before?
A. ~'m sure I've seen i.~. I don't
remember it without looking at it..
Q. I'd llke to focus si:mply on page
2423, ~or starters. You'll see tlhere it's 1991
proposed spend?
A. Yes.
Q. Total spsnd proposed
do you see that?
A, Yes,
Q. At this time, in October 1990, why
proposed spend for 1991 9~eater than
was the
1990?
is 46 million,
MR. GOULD: Take y~ur time ~o
review whatever other pages of thi.s documen~ for
context that you need,
TRE WITNESS: Okay.
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BY MR.
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CIONFIDENTIAL
M~. KINTZ: Why ~on't we take a
break?
Exhibit
there's
that?
A.
looked at
A.
Q.
740, page
(~eesss taken.)
H~NTZ:
MS. Naughton, if you look at
745, on page production number 2424,
a 1990 A/P split o~ 49 ~o 51, do you see
Yes.
That's different f~om the split we
earlier today of 56 to 44, right?
That's right.
And if you need to see it, it was in
558.
Why was the change made in the
advertising to promotion split ~n 1990?
A. I don't recall exactly.
Q. This document, Exhibit 745,
indicates the A/P split is goin~ to be changed to
52 to 48, advertising versus to promotion. Why
was that proposed?
A. The o~ly thing I cmn assume is that
we have money in that 46 millio~ for the 120's
expansion and 38 percen~ which ~ou!d have
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CON[FIDENTIAL
increased our media support potenltially because
of regional ma~azine runs and thalt sort of thing.
Q. Doesn'~ the media sp~lit in the next
section show that the magazine in,creases were
small relative to the out of home[?
A. Well, bu~ magazines, it could be --
I mean, y~u have regional upcharses potentially
for 120's; out of out cf home, you'd have
potential support for 120'8 and n~at was 38
percent so that would explain why out of home
might be up a little bit,
The OUt of home increase in
ExhiDit 745 is more than double, correct?
A. That's right.
Q. What's your understamdlng of why
that occurrsd?
A. Well, Just from look~ng at this
document, I'm assuming it's because of the 120's
launch. And the 38 percent, some off that would
1990
of home w~ich we used for
have gone to launch out
the 38 percent.
And the 38 percent l~unch was when?
A. AS I recall, we bega~ shipping ~n
but the retail start was in ~arly 1991.
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that launch?
A.
A.
0.
613
NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
Were you involved in the planning of
In your capacity as a director?
That's correct.
And in that capacity as a director,
when did you begin to have respon~ibillty for
Capri?
A. I was -- it was abou~ March; that's
the best that I can recollect.
So you were off the ~apri brand
AS I recall, it was just about two
mean, it might have been a little
£or --
A.
months. I
126, lines 6
use a lot of
you
to?
1990
At your May 14th deposition, page
and 7, see where you say, "We don't
out o£ home, it's too broad"? Do
see that?
A. Yes.
Q. What time frame
were you referring
A. Well, as i recall, I think in
~- at least in 1990, and them I'm just in
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CON~IDENTIAL
priority markets where you have those high
opportunity markets and out of hone is a good
medium for building of awareness ~f a big brand
image, but we didn't put it in markets where we
had average or lower development.
Q. " Similarly at page 31~8, which is on
your next day, you see at line 14 --
A. What page is this?
Pa~e 318, line 14 yo~u say, "we use
very little out of home now."
A. I don't have that.
Q. 3187
A. NO.
MR. GOULD: The he~ading says
Volume II, pages 263 to 460, but ~if you look at
it, the actual pages included sta:rt with page
which is a computer error or some~thing.
MR. HINTZ: You se,e what the
problem is.
(Discussion of£ the ~record.)
Exhibit 734
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. If you take a look at
which is the 1990 actuals, tab
of hcme actual year-to-date is
12, page 390, out
4.5 million,
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correct?
A.
Q.
million
A.
Q.
NANCY G. NAUGHTON -
Tha~s right.
Out of total
I mean 13.5?
That's right.
I've opened Exhibit
615
CONI~IDENTIAL
basic m~edia of 3.5
735 to the page
'You'll see
tough to read,
with production number 363-011.
since we've bound your copy it's
but you see on the top right, September 19917
Yea.
Q. And under year-to-date actual,
you'll see that the out of home component basic
media is 8.4 million out of a ~otal basic media
of 16.2, correct?
A. That's right.
Q. What's your understa~nding of why the
full year expenditure on Out of home in 1990 was
4.5 million whereas in the first ~nine months of
1991, B&W spe~t 8.4 million on out of home?
A. I believe that's due to the 120's
launch because you don't have as :many media
options when you're regional, local, such as out
of home is more heavily used.
And that resulted in a doubling of
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NANCY G. NAUGKTON CON~IDENTIAL
the out of home expenses?
A. I believe that's wha~ it is. It was
the launch of 120's, because if y~u look at the.
first three months -- well, at least I looked at
the first three, but out of home is heavy in
January, it's heavy in February, mnd then it
starts dropping off like in April., more down to
sort of a base level, but it's quite heavy in the
beginning of the year which would coincide with
zhat expansion.
Oo
if we could.
397, Exhibit
A.
Q.
2.8 million?
A.
Q.
year-to-date.
A.
expenses to
to
Let's look at a few ~f those
Out of home in January 1991,
735, is 1.4 million?
That's right.
And in February, on page 404 it's
numbers
pa~e
It's 1.4 million,
i'm sorry. Yes,
And in March,
That's right.
oult of home.
I'm looking at ~he
1.4 ~as well?
And in April, 700,0010, so those
you indicate that they were related
the 120's?
A. That's right.
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also out of
correct?
A.
Q.
markets?
A.
Q.
actuals and
NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CON[FIDENTIAL
During that time frame, there
home being spent on the
was
617
There's the way I re,call it, yes.
In what were known a.s priority
That's right.
I think we're finish.ed with all the
budgets and financials for a while.
What I'd like to fin.ish up from your
deposition of May 14th is an area. that we
discussed on page 144.
MR. GOULD: We're back to as a
fact witness again?
MR. HINTZ: Yes. I was under the
understandisg we had been there for quite some
time.
MR. GOULD: Fine.
BY MR. HINTZ:
You'll see in your alnswer on lines
22 and 23 on page 144 where you say, "They're not
value sensitive smokers" in reference to Capri
smokers, do you see that?
A, That's right.
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Q. What was your basis ~for that
statement?
A. When we looked at sw~itcher data, we
didn't appear to be very sensitive to value for
money brands, small base but it d:idn't really
Jump up as Misty came into the ma~rket.
But more on judgment., a brand like
Capri that is, you know, a slim circumference, a
real value ssnsitive smoker is pr~obably not going
to selec~ that brand just because of its slim
circum£erence and the possible pe~rception o£ not
getting real value for money. Th~ey're smoking it
for the style and elegance that t~e brand has and
its overall image based on that c~ircumference.
Q. Are you aware of any studies that
support or contradict that conclu~slon?
On value sensitivity~?
Yes. I mean yon mentioned
switchers.
A. Switchers is one source. Probably
the best source is how we performed so far on the
market. AS Misty has grown so ra~idly, it's up
8/10 of a share now~ and Virginia Slims and some
of the other slims brands appear Zo be somewhat
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CON]FIDENTIAL
vulnerable and have lost some sha:re while Capri
has really stayed rock solid, so we don't appear
to be losing, certainly not dispr~oportionately,
and it appears below our fair sha:re of any losses
to value for money.
Q. During the same time that Misty has
been gaining it's .8 share and Capri has been
rock solid, what has Virginia Slims Super Slims
been doing?
A. I think it's decline~d a little.
Q. What effect during t~is same time
frame when Misty has been growing and Capri has
been rock solid has Virginia Slim~s Super Slims
had on Capri?
A. Could you repeat tha~t question?
Q. Yes. During this ti~e when Misty
has been growing and Capri has helen rock solid
and virginia Slims Super Slims ha~s been
declining, what effect has ~uper ISlims had on
Capri?
A. To the extent that, ~ou know, we
haven't gained new smokers, becau~se Super Slims
despite its decline could still b~e attracting new
smokers; they might be losing smokers for other
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reasons, you know, taste issues, Ithings like
that. So potentially they are inhibiting our
growth. I mean, we could be
potentially.
Q. How do you know
growing because of
because of Misty?
and not Misty?
think
super
grow:i ng,
that you could be
Super Slims raZher than
Why do you blame Super Slims
Smokers that smoke Misty I don't
are smokers that would be a~tracted to
slim propcsltlon because of the reasons
6~0
explained on the circumference and value events
advertised, where Super Slims is our direct
competitor. And to the extent that they're
getting new inflows into that bus~ness, those
inflows could be coming to us and since we're not
losing share and we could have those inflows,
that would yield a growth position ~o us.
Q. Since you're speaking hypothetically
I'll ask, isn't it possible that Super Slims is
driving people toward Capri because they're
dissatisfied with Super Slims so they switch to
Capri?
A. ! don't know. I don"t know.
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A.
Super Slims,
Q.
studies?
A.
Super Slims
NANCY G. NAUGHTON CON[FIDENTIAL
Would that be --
I don't know why smo]kers are
so that is a possibiility.
Would that
621
leaving
show up i]n switcher
It should.
Has the presence of Virginia Slims
increased the awarene:ss of both Super
Slims
and Capri to consumers?
A. I don't think so. I would not argue
that it somewhat confuses the issue, but to the
extent that they have been named ~the descriptor,
that's a possibility, But as far as capri's
awareness is concerned, now we ha~e to sort of
share our message with Virginia S~lims, so in that
sense it hurts us.
Q. And what's the Capri message?
A. Well, that we are a ~nique super
slim proposition in Just our ima~ and what we're
providing to the consumer. When ~ou have a
direct competitor, it's going to dilute your
message. That's what it means.
Q. What's Virginia Slims Super Slims'
message?
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NANCY G.
it's basic~lly super slim.
Q. What do you mean,
slim?
622
NAUGHTON - CON~IDENTIAL
with the current advertising
A. Got their name,
basically super
a large headline. The most
the most recent ads do have
claim.
Q. So Super Slims' current
different message than Capri?
you ~now, in sort of
recen~ -- actually
some of the low smoke
ads have a
A. To the extent that t~ey have the
smoke claim in there, but it's still talking
fashionable smoking style which in Capri's
premise.
Q. Capri's basic premise is
fashionable --
A. Well, it's
elegance that surrounds
and what, you know, elegant cues, fashion
that clrcumfere~ce gives off. An~ that's
low
basic
the circumference and the
the clgar~tte is its base
cues
basic position.
Q. Super Slims' positiom is being £rom
Virsinia Slims, right?
A. Yes, I'm sure it say~ somewhere in
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
~he ad from Virginia Slims.
Q. So par~ of its percemtage is brand
family, Virginia Slims?
I don't recall exactly where that's
ao
in the ad.
A.
But you remember ini~ially -~
~ know they have dons it in the
Super Slims from Virginia Shims.
Can you recall a tim~ when they did
Virginia Slims as part of the percentage?
No.
You testified tha~
~ained new smokers
S%uper Slims in
~a~ Capri misht
your opinion
have ~ained.
Is there any other ~ay that Super
Slims has taken smokers or sales Erom Capri?
A.. Well, ~rom the reduced inflows and
we lost some smokers to Super Sli~s from the
Capri brand. So our outflows tc ~rginia Slims
had -- which had been relatively ~w, increased
with the launch of Super Sl~ms.
Q. Those are outflows f=om ~he
switching study?
A. That's right.
Q. Is there any other h~sis for your
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONIFIDENTIAL
view on how Super Slims has affec'ted Capri other
than switcher studies?
A. Outside of just looking at the trend
lines in Nielsen and MSA as well ~as share of
smokers in Switchers, ! means our trends
certainly Elattened out as soon als Super Slims
was launched.
Q. As soon as Super Slilms was
did you reach any concluslcns abo~ut the
that it would have on Capri?
A. Well, as soon as it ,was launched, I
mean, we were certainly c~ncerned. I mean, you
know, a direct competitor comins ,out.
Q. How about after it hiad been on the
market for several months?
A. As I recall, I think we were still
concerned about it and, you know, we became more
concerned as we just watched our ~trend line
flatten out. And when you look a~t switchers and
all of a sudden our inflows are d,screasing and
our outflows to Virginia Slims ar~e decreasing,
that long-term picture doesn't lo~k ~ood. So
there was some concern the more i~nformation we
got.
launched,
effect
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
Q. Is it your understanlding that Capri
would have sold every cigarette t~hat Super Slims
sold had Super Slims never been o~n the market,
every single one e~ those outflows would have
the inflows would have come to
stayed and all
Capri?
A. I believe there's a certain number
of smokers out there who like a 1.7 millimeter
cigarette. And to that extent, that Virginia
Slims was out there with the same, product,
mean, for ~hose smokers that are smoking it
because of that slim circumferencle, yes, I would
expect those to be ours because o,f the uniqueness
of the 17 millimeter circumferenc.e.
And that's like the
smoke it, I mean, they talk about
circumference, either you love it
reason people
that slim
or yo~ hate it,
but the people who like it really" like it. And
being the only one out there, eve:n though it was
a slower build than we anticipate.d, I would have
expected to get those smokers over time.
Q. Are there any smokers who smeke
Virginia Slims Super Slims who do so because it
is a Virginia Slims prod~c~?
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626
NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CON~IDENTIAL
MR. GOULD: Objection to form.
Solely, partly?
MR. HINTZ: Solely.
THE WITNESS: I dom't think
solely, because you would have to llke the
circumference too.
BY MR. HINTZ:
O. In October 1989, pri~r to that, they
had Capri; if they wanted the circumference, they
bought Capri, right?
A. If they knew about t~is.
Q. After October of 1989 with Super
Slims on the market, they had two choices for the
circumference?
Right.
What makes them choose Super Slims
over Capri?
A.
Well,
and we knew it was
had to get product
it's a new product,
trial generation process takes
Capri it's goimg ~o take --
slowly goins t~ build and we
in people's hamds. I mean,
a new name, amd that whole
ti~e. And we were
getting better at focusing in on ~he prime
prospecte for the proposition and eventually they
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CON~FIDENTIAL
might have given us a try.
A lot c£ people won"t try new brands
right off the top, they have to g,et used to it.
And to that extent Capri wouldn't generate trial
as quickly, but that doesn't mean that a
conversion couldn't have come abo~ut down the road
once you pot the product in their hands.
Why in October of 19~89 would they
suddenly try the new Super Slims ~when you say
people don't like to try new bran~s?
A. First of all, Virginia Slims Super
Slims was supported with a very a~gressive
campaign u~der the Virginia Slims umbrella. You
know, they had a bigger base to jump off of
versus a new product like Capri.
Q. so it is it fair to say that some
people bought Super Slims because it was a
Virginia Slims product?
A. I'm sure that's a possibility, that
some smokers did that.
Q. And some of those smokers would have
never bought Capri because it was not a Virginia
Slims product, correct?
A. I'm not sure that's ~rue.
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NANCY G, NAUGHTON - CON'FIDENTIAL
Q. They could have bought it prior to
Super Slims and didn't?
A. If they knew about it. And all I'm
saying is a new product has a harder time in
terms of getting smokers to try them and getting
used to t~e product because it's .a definite
departure, but we could still con'vert those
smokers over time, it would just take us longer.
Q. Super Slims was a ne'w product when
it came out so it faced the same ,difficulty as
Capri, correct~ in terms of getti:ng people aware
and getting people to try it?
A. That's correct, but ~a line extension
like that is a little bit easier "than what Capri
was up against.
Q. And why is a llne ex~tension easier?
A. Awa~eness levels, di~strlbution base,
everything is a little bit easier that way.
Q. So Super Slims was able to achieve
advantages being a Virginia Slims
that Capri couldn't?
A. That's a
Q. Now, you
family b~and
hypothesis.
testified that you were
your target and
getting better at getting to
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k~ows
figure out who the franchise was.
easier to come in and once it's a[ll
you knew, target your programs on~ce
somebody's experience in market.
So it's your underst~nding that
629
NANCY G. NAUGHTON CON'FIDENTIAL
so you had a two year h.ead start On
Slims at that point, correct?
A. Well, we had been in market but, you
we had to do the learning u[p front and
It's a lot
settled
you can see
Philip Morris was watching Capri'~s experience and
then targeted its Super Slims pro!gram according
to what Capri had done?
A. I would expect if yolu're going to
launch a brand that's a direct competitor to
something on the market thaC you would
investigate that, what that franchise looks like
and what kinds of programs ~hey're doing and what
worked. That's what I would think.
Q. Do you understand thmt that's what
happened?
A. I don't know t~at fo~ a fact.
~'m
assuming they would look at that kind of
information.
Q. Based on your review of what Super
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
Slime actually did when it came o:nto the market,
were the programs targeted and ta.ilored in the
same way that you had learned to ,do on Capri?
A. I don't recall exactily what
promotione they ran but I'm sure ~they were
reaeonably focused.
Q. What makes you so su:re?
A. ~'m not sure, that was Just an
assumption on my part.
Q. What got us down thi~ road wae my
queetlon of why coneumers would choose Super
Slims over Capri, what reasons they would do
that.
One of the reasone you identified
wae an aggressive Campaign under ~he Virginia
Slime umbrella. Any other reason~ why oonsum~re
would chooee Super Slims over Cap,i?
A. Because of the way coneumers talked
about the I? millimeter and that ~as like its
number one characteristic that wo~id really, that
led a consumer to adopt or not to was the 17
mill~meters. I mean, I think that's the primary
reaeon, would be that difference.
Q. But you guye at B&W ~ad already gone
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after all
and you
target,
A.
prospects
Q.
bushes,
smoke a
A.
NANCY G. NAUG~TON
these consumers and the
were starting to contract
correct?
631
CONIFIDENTIAL
17 millimeter
the focus and
That's right, agains~t the prime
as we could see it deve~iop.
So you had already b~eaten the
if you will, to find who ~as going to
17 millimeter product, comrect?
NOt overmight, it's mot that easy.
Not every consumer
at any given time.
millimeter product,
is looking for another bra~d
Particularly on a 17
you would havo to overcome
skepticism. That was one of the Zhings we
learned right up front, that some smokers
wouldn't try a 17 millimeter because they assumed
i~ wouldn't taste good so there's e~ill all those
consumers out there that hadn't t~ied it.
So our programs stil~ have evolved
in term of how to get product into consumers'
h~nds. There's a lot of people o~t there who
haven'~ tried Capri and those are still potential
consumers down the road.
Q. Super Slims got to those consumers.,
is what you're saying?
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Q. They overcame
these people had?
A. They may have
opportunities. AS I said,
and neat.
Q. Your assumption
Super Slims learned from Capri
your footsteps as to how to go
market.
NANCY G. NAUGHTON C0~FIDENTIAL
Potentially, yes.
the sk:epticlsm that
632
gotten~ different trial
it's n~ot all that nice
earlier was that
and followed in
after the target
Now you say that Sup.er Slims found
people Capri didn't find by doing things
different?
A. NO. I'm eaying the 17 millimeter
circumference, that's nonnegotiable. Either you
love it or you hate it. That hap~pened to drive
trial along wi~h some consumers d'uring their
launch period. And as I said, co~nsumers don't
all come running to try it nhe mo~men~ you launch
a brand. And to my understanding, when they did
hit s,ome of those
to do with it being
is that what you're eaying?
initial launch trials, they
consumers.
It had nothing
from Virginia Slims,
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - COnfIDENTIAL
A. I don'~ know. All I~'m saying is
with a 17 millimeter product, bec:ause it's so
633
nonnegotiable, either you love it or you hate it,
if there's only one on the market, those would
have been Capri smokers. If I'm the only one and
people like that and there are sm~okers out there
that like it, it doesn't have to have Virginia
Slims on it for them to adopt it.
Q. So if Virginia Slims
the market, your trends would hav.e
way they were going?
A.
Q.
A.
out. I think there's
that will entertain a
it's not for everyone.
Q. And what
it have peaked?
A. A share point maybe.
again just my opinion.
Q. Isn't
Slims, Capri" 100's
share point?
hadn't come on
continued the
I think so.
Never weuld have pea]ked?
Eventually it would ]have flattened
a certain a~ount of people
17 millimet~er product, but
share is thmt, where would
~he aggregate ~hare of Super
and Capri 120'~ m~re than a
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
A. I don't know. I haven't looked at
Nielsen. On a Nielsen basis, I don't think so.
In some areas of the country~ that's certainly
true.
Q. Well, what share points were you
taLKing about, na~ionally?
A. National.
Q. Had Super Slims not come on the
market, when would have Capri remched its peak?
A. I don't know the exmct answer to
that but I think we would have c~ntinued to see
some steady srowth because we were able to talk
to those consumers more effectively. We had
several prosrams that worked ver~ well for us in
terms of converting smokers once we got product
in their hands,
those programs,
our share.
0.
consumers?
A.
Q.
because
and to the extent: we extended
I think we would have extended
But Super Slims beat~ you to those
Yes.
Did any smokers buy Super Slims
it was an ultra low tar?
MR. GOULD: Objection, solely or
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON -
635
COnFiDENTIAL
partly?
MR. HINTZ: Let me~ change the
question completely,
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. Did any smokers buy Super Slims
instead o~ capri because Super Sl i~s was ultra
low tar?
A. I don't know for a fact. I'm not
sure I have any real data that wo.uld indicate
that they bought it
opinion, both Capri
consumex perception
for ultra low' tar. In my
and Super Sli~ms have a
of being very light and airy
and the difference between a 6 an,d a 9 weren't on
a taste basis very considerable a:nd they really
didn't tout it, you
advertising.
Q. You're
know, real bi!g in their
sure about th~at, that they
didn't tout it in their advertislmg?
A. No. It was in there but it wasn't
like a huge selli~ point, as I r~call, i~ their
advertising. So I'm not sure ult~ra low tar
was -- and from a consumer percepltion point,
Capri was perceived as a very light cigarette as
well, so it wasn't all that unique.
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636
1 NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
2 Q. Once people smoked it or before they
3 smoked it?
4 A. I don't know if I hmve direct, you
5 know -- or I don't recall consume~r comments after
6 they smoked it.
7 Q. Did any consumers buy Super Slims
8 instead of Capri because of Supe~ Slims' low
9 smoke feature?
l0 A. I don't think low sm~oke was a big
Ii selling point for them based on c,ur consumer
12 research that indicated that a lo~t of your --
13 well, a lot of smokers attribn~edl the same
14 attribute to Capri. A lot of smo~kers didn't even
15 knew that the brand was low smoke,.
I~ And some felt that - - well, to some
17 consumers any smoke is too much. If you promise
18 low smoke, if there's any smoke coming out of
19 there, then it's not really low s~moke. So that
20 attribute I don't thimk was a real strong one and
~I net a reason for, or at least certainly not a
22 primary one, for people
23 Q. My question was, was there any
24 single Super Slims sale that was ~made because of
25 low smoke that would not have beeln made to Capri?
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - C0~FIDENTIAD
A. I don't know that fo*r a fact.
Q. And the flip side of[ that is you
don't know for a fact that Super Slims smokers
bought Super Slims solely because~ it was low
smoke and Capri wasn't?
A. No, I don't-know tha.t.
Q. Similarly you don't .knOw that some
of the Super Slims smokers bought Super Slims
instead of Capri because it was u.ltr& low tar?
A. No, I don't know that, only that
both those attributes were often ~attributed to,
particularly the low smoke, to Calpri. And in my
opinion, ~hat product perception ~difference
between Super Slims and Virginia Slims would not
be all that great.
Q. And those produc~ pe~ceptlon
differences would arise after trial, correct?
A. Pardon?
Q. Those product di£fer~ntiation issues
would arise in Consumers" eyes after trial?
A. That's right, potentially.
So if they had never t£ied Capri and
they bought Super Slims because theysaid low
smoke, then there's no comparison to be made in
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638
NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
your mind, right?
A. When you ask consumers about Capri
or about low smoke, they'll say Capri has low
smoke. Once they think about it, they attach low
smoke to the circumference. I m~an, it is
because of the 17 millimeters.
Q. But Virginia Slims Sluper Slims says
60 percent less smoke?
A. Right.
Q. So consumers seeing that before
nrying the product would perceive, a product
benefit from Virginia Slims Super" Slims?
MR, GOULD:
That claim was
MR. HINTZ:
period.
Objection as to time
only made for ~ particular
Obviou:sly the question
claim was ]being made in
impossible to answer
Coul~d you repeat
Read i~t back, please.
is related to when the
the advertising. It's
otherwise.
THE WITNESS:
your question?
MR. HINTZ:
(The pending quesUicm was read.)
THE WITNESS: TO t~e extent that
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CON|FIDENTIAL
they think low sidestream like th~at is relevant.
BY MR. HINTZ:
As far as your respo~nse to my
question of why people chose Supe~r Slims over
Capri, are there any other reasons that you can
think Of?
A. No.
Q. What got us down this road was the
question about what effects you tlhought Super
Slims would have on Capri early i~n Super Slims
launch period.
Did you personally c,onduct any
investlga~ion to determine what t]hose effects
might be, Super Slims" effects on Capri?
A. I'm not sure I under,stand what type
of investigation.
May of 19907
A.
0.
document I don't
Market checks?
I don'~ recall,
DO you recall
I ma~ have.
~olng ~o Phoenix
I guess I did.
Well, when you see
know if you'll
I'll
the date on the
a~ree.
ask the reporter
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - C0~FIDENTIAL
to mark as Exhibit 746 a three-pmge document
bearing production numbers BWT316-~E41 to i~43,
dated May 7, 1990.
THE WITNESS: I iLke to get trip
r~ports out of the way.
(Defendant's
746 was marked for identifications.
retained by counsel.)
BY ME. HINTZ:
Q. Ms. Naughton, is Ex~ibit 746 a
document you prepared?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And it is a
a field visiz in Phoenix, correct?
A. That's right.
Q. The date of ths mark,et check
document is May 7, 1990 and you'lll see under the
purpose there's a reference to Ma~y 18t~ field
visit, do yon see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you explain the ~difference in
those dates?
A. Well, one is an error:
which.
Deposi~:io~ Exhibit-No.
Exhibit
Capri market check from
I don't know
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traveling to Phoenix
roughly May 1990?
A. I don't recall
I wrote this so I was there.
Q. If you turn to
Exhibit 746, you'll see the
641
NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
In any event, do you recall
to perform m market check in
exactly b~t I'm sure
"Capri
in the
Virginia
A.
O.
sentence
does not
the s~econd page of
first: sentence,
appears to have sustained product movement
Phoenix market despi~e the~ launch of
Slims Super Slims"?
Yes.
And skipping a sente~nce, the next
reads, "Based on retailer commentS, it
appear that Virginia Slims Super Slims
significantly impacted Capr±' s movement to
you see ~hat?
Yes.
Was that accurate wh,en written?
Yes, I think so.
Did Super Slims at s~ome point later
has
date." Do
A.
0.
A.
0.
impact Capri in the Phoenix marke~t, to your
knowledge?
A. I don't k~ow if it d~clined
there but -- or I mean, I don't r~member what the
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - C0~FIDENTIAL
trends were for the Phoenix market exactly.
Q. Is this your conclusion that you are
reporting, the part that I read, "It does not
appear that Virginia Slims Super Slims has
significantly impacted Capri movement to date"?
Yes, and I based that on retailer
Q.
check, to
19907
You made this report, this market
H. C. Howells. Who wa~ that in May
He was the director of brand
management I think was his offici.al title at
time.
Q.
A.
Your immediate super'visor?
That's right.
Did other people at Brown &
Williamson make similar market ch.ecks to
determine the effects of Super Slims?
A. I'm sure there were some made.
donJt recall exactly who went.
Q. And some of those were
you, correct?
A. That would be correc~t.
MR. HINTZ: I'll alsk
the
reported
the reporter
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
to mark as Exhibit 747 a documen~ with production
numbers BWT316-2582 to 2588.
(Defendant's Deposition Exhibit-No.
747 was marked for identificatiom. Exhibit
retained by counsel.)
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. Can yo~ identify Exhibit 747,
please?
A. It's a Tampa market check written by
Carrie Canavan.
Q. And that's a reporn to you?
A. That's right.
Q. Turn to the second ~age of
Exhibit 747. You'll see under the heading
Virginia Slims Super Slims, the t~hlrd sentence
reads, "Retailers and salespeople~ report initial
trial and interest of Super Slimsl at its
introduction bu~ recently consume~r offtake has
been very slow." Do you see that,?
Yes.
Does
recollection
that comport wi.th your
of the sales of Supe~r Slims in
markets o~hur than Tampa in about May Of 19907
A. Is your question, do. these market
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
checks we felt translate to evsr~ place?
Q. Yes. Did that concl_usion from this
market translate --
A. I don't think we did that.
market checks are very anecdotal and you
have to
be very careful with
your initial leok at
a general feel, but we were waitl.ng for sales
data and things like that.
Q. My question goes mor'e tO whether the
sales data confirmed this conclus.ion, that at the
introduction, Super Slims had a certain amount of
trial and interest but then eventually the
offtake was very slow?
MR. GOULD: DO you mean as of the
date of this, May 19907
MR. HINTZ: Yes.
THE WITNESS: I th~ink, you know,
it still was reasonably early. I mean, it wasn't
that slow. We --I mean, it wasn't slow because
it did grow to 3/10. And one of Ithe problems
when you go ont and do a market c~eck, you talk
to a retailer and you ask about a brand that's
pretty small, I mean, they referemce everything
them. I thl.nk we lo0k --
the market glives you sort of
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NANCY G, NAUGHTON - C0~FIDENTIAL
in terms of Marlboro. And they say, well,
it's
not as fast as Marlboro. And they just don't
have a feel for this.
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. But you and Ms. Canmvan a~d the
people that write these reports ~re the ones
making the conclusions, right?
A. Yes. I think in my report I said
that Capri's business wasn't impa~ctsd. A~d the
fact that we weren'~ declining, i.t would appear,
based on what I saw in Phoenix an~d I think that
bore out in the market as well, w,e didn't decline
real rapidly up front but we also, didn't, you
know, continue on a ~rowth curve, which would be
harder to discern in a market check situation.
MR. HINTZ: I would ask the
reporter to mark as Exhibit 748 a three-page
document with production numbers [BWT316-2267 to
2269.
(Defendant's Deposition Exhibit-No.
748 was marked for identification. Bxhibit
retained by counsel.}
BY MR. NINTZ:
Q. MS. Naughton, can yo~ identify
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Exhibit
A.
Cawood.
Q.
to MS. Canavan,
NANCY G. NAUGHTON -
748, please?
This is
was
this
you?
you?
646
COI~F IDENTIAL
a market che~ck done by Betsy
This market check
correct?
is: being reported
A. ThaK's right.
Q. Whereas the last one: we looked at
reported to you?
That's right.
Q. Do you have an understandin~ of why
report was sent to Ms. Canav;an rather than
A. Betsy Cawood reporte,d to Carrie.
Q. And at this time, Ca~rrie reported to
That's right.
Q. on the second page y~ou'll see that
this report of field visit to New York indicates
under Competitive Activity, "Vir~inia Slims Super
Slims were seen in distribution i~ most outlets;
however,
slow."
retailers commented that sales were
Do you see that?
Yes.
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
IS it fair to say t~at that's
the Tampa
647
similar result as was shown from
market
check?
A. That's correct.
ME. HINTS: I'll a~sk the reporter
to mark as Exhibit V49 a t~ree-paLge document with
production numbers BWT316-~600 to~ 2602.
(Defendant's Depasit~ion Exhibit-No.
749 was marked for identifications. Exhibit
retained by counsel.)
BY M~. HINTZ:
please?
A. It's a market check
made in Louisiana.
And the date
Can you identify Exhibit 749,
C~rrie Can~an
is Jnne 5th, 1990,
correct?
A.
That's risht.
And this is addresse*d to you?
A. That's right.
Q. The second page unde:r Virginia Slims
Super Slims reads, "Super Slims d~oes not appear
to be performing well at all here."
Do you see that?
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
A. Yes.
Q. Louisiana was Capri' s best or one
its best markets always, corr~cK?~
A.
to m&rk yet
648
That's correct.
MR. HINTZ: I'll msk the reporter
another market check as Exhibit 750.
The document bears document produlction numbers
BWT316-1818 to 1820.
(Defendant's Deposit~ion Exhlbit~o.
750 was marked for identifications. Exhibit
retained by counsel.)
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. Can you identify Exh.lbit 750,
please?
A. My trip report to Nashville.
Q. And this document is dated July 16,
1990?
A. That's right.
Q. On the second page of this
Exhibit 750, you'll see the follo'wing: "Based
retailer comments, Capri eutper£olrmed Virginia
Slims Super Slims and was not beilng
cannibalized."
DO you see that?
of
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON
A. Yes.
Q. What's your meaning
caanibalized as used here?
649
CONFIDENTIAL
of the term
A. Well, to the extent that we weren't
losing share to Super Slims.
in your Nashville ma.rket check,
don't report that Capri is losing~ potential
smokers to Super Slims, correct?
A. No, not in this trip, report.
to mark as
production
MR. HINTZ:
Exhibit 751 a single
~umber BWT316-2529.
ask the reporter
page bearing
751 was marked for identification.
retained by counsel.)
~Y MR. HINTZ:
Q. You see at the bottom of this
document it has the date July 4th, 1990?
A. Yes.
Q. A~d from the initials, is it your
understanding that it's a documen~t prepared by
Ms. Canavan?
A.
Q.
(Defendant's Deposition Exhiblt-No.
Exhibit
ThatJs correct.
Are you familiar with this document?
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but - -
A.
650
NANCY G. NAUGHTON - COnFIDENTiAL
I don't remember w~t it's from,
You think you've se~n it before?
It's possible.
If you look under the fourth bullet,
first subpart w~ic~
Slime showing low consumer deman~ but overall
effects on Capri are currently u~certai~ (MSA
share .21)." DO you see that?
A. Yes.
D~es that comport wi.th your
recollection that as o£ July 1990~ the effect of
Super Slims on Capri was uncertain?
A. Yes, that's true I t.hink.
Q. when did B&W reach c~ertainty on the
effects that Super Slims were hav'ing on Capri?
A. Well, I think once w'e, you know --
actually I don't know how m~h da,ta we had at
this point, but you need mor~ of a base of
information than Just, you know, ~market checks
and anecdotes, looking a~ Nielsen and lookin~ at
MSA, because the initial MSA woul,d be pipeline
volume so that will be distorted ~and then there's
a lag for switcher so you really ,can't tell
reads, "virsinia Slims Super
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NANCY G.
immediately.
Qo If you
you see a June is~,
A. Yes.
Q. For 10o's,
A. Yes.
NAUGHTON C0~FIDENTIAL
icok at the top of this
1990 shipment forecast?
120'8 and total?
651
page,
And then a revised ~udset number or
numbers for each of those?
Yes.
Q. And an index for I00~'s, 120~s and
total, do you See all that?
A. Yes.
Based upon the index:, is it your
understanding that Capri was unde!rpexforming
relative to the revised budget as: of June 19907
A. That's correct.
Q. And as of June 1990,
determined that Capri marketing
could be cut and still maintain
no
fair to say
objectives?
A.
B&W had already
expenditures
Share, correct?
That's right.
AS of ~hls time, Jul~y 1990, is ~t
that Capri was not me,eting its
I couldn't answer th~at just from
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looking
recall.
able to
NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
at the shipment
Somebody from
talk about it.
652
forecasts and I don't
forecastin,g would be mo~e
BUt in terms of the
budget and what load assumptions,
talked about that last time,
makes a bis difference.
It also makes a
and I think we
are .in the budget
dlff,erence what we
assumed in the budget for when we were launching
120's, so that might be high as w~ell because
that's definitely
Q. Exhibit 751 does not attribute any
of the low index numbers to Super Slims, correct?
A. I don't think this is really
dlscusein~ this volume forecast u~ here. I meanj
none of these bullets are really .-- it's more,
here's the snapshot.
Q. And the snapshot is Chat Super
Slims' e~fects were currently uncertain?
A. At this point, yes. According to
I mean, that was what Carrie's point of view was
here.
Q. And her point of view was also that,
as the first bullet item reads, "~00's volume
trend is relatively flat"?
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NANCY G.
A. That's right.
Q. Let me hand you
previously marked as Exhibit
Brand Switching Study No. 49.
NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
National
Now, i£ you 10ok also at, I don't
know i~ you nave your copy, I'll show you mine.
This is Exhibit 707, the 30 (.b) (6) notice.
Paragraph 12 says one cf the swit.ching studies
you're going to testify about on ibehalf of B&W is
No. 49, correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. What did you de to prepare to
testify on behalZ of B&W, to testlify about
switching study NO. 49?
A. Nothing.
Q. Did you review swltc]hing study
NO. 49 yesterday?
A. NO, I didn't.
Q. Did you talk to anyone at Market
Facts about this switching study ~or any other
switching study?
A. No, • didn't.
Q. Did you review eithe~ o£ the other
switching studies in paragraph 12 of Exhibit 707~
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON -
namely 45 and 47?
A. No.
Q. Did you
Facts about those?
A. No.
Q.
any of the
654
CONFIDENTIAL
talk with an[ybody at Market
Did you talk to anyb,ody at B&W about
switching studies
preparation for your deposition t,estimony today?
A. NO.
Q. If you turn please t,o the page with
production numbers 350091, you sere the legend
underneath this graph or chart wh,ere Capri is
indicated as having shading from ~the upper left
to the lower right
A. Yes.
Q. -- on the graph?
A. Yes.
Q. If you look on the glraph, you'll see
that between 1986 and 1987 there'~s a shaded
portion representing Capri at the very top, do
you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. What's your understamding of how
Capri is represented in the composition of the
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - C0~FIDENTIAL
total slims segment in a year when it wasn't even
being sold?
A. I don't know.
Q. And had you ever comsidered that
before today?
A. No.
Q. So this graph to your understanding
is incorrect?
A. Yep. I mean, someone at market
research may be able tc talk to ~hat.
MR. HINTZ: Again, this is no
reflection on you but you are the~ one that was
designated and I believe Mr. Fitz:maurice was also
to testify on behalf o*f B&W about this
designated
document.
counsel.
MR. GOULD: That's~
created by B&W in the flr'st
So some of your questio,ns
directed to Market Facts.
correct, which
place,
may be benter
MR. HINTZ: They c~ertainly are,
but I'm trying to establish what this witness
does and does not know who is being put forward
as being most knowledgeable at B&~W about these
studies.
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
MR. GOULD: That's correct,
And
there may be not be anyone at B&W who can answer
your precise questions.
MR. HINTZ: That's true and as
Ms. Naughton just said, someone at market
research may be more knowledgeabl,e. And that's
the whole purpose of a 30 (b) (6) , to produce the
most knowledgeable witness,
must be prepared to testify;
in the rule.
and also that people
that's a requirement
MR. GOULD: She's testified at
length in her prior deposition ab,ou~ switching
studies, how to use them and spec:ific conclusions
she's drawn from them. She certa:inly is
knowledgeable about that and she'~s already
demonstrmted her knowledge about ~th~t in the last
two days of deposition.
MR. HIN~Z: All
that knowledge.
BY MR. HINTZ:
Would you turn
does this graph represent?
A. The super slims segm~nt~
Q. I'm sorry?
right, let's test
to page 093? What
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657
NANCY G. NAUGHTON C0~FIDENTIAL
A. The super slims segment, the
composition of it between Capri mnd Super Slims.
Q. What do the percentmges that are on
the left and right sides of the page indicate?
A. That's my understanding, that's
s~are of smokers.
Q. Is that a national s~hare?
A. Well, it's in the st~udy, the share
o~ smokers in the study which is -~ I mean,
again, I'm net, I can't talk to t~he switcher in
terms of how it's constructed aad[ how the samples
are constructed, but this to my u~nderstandlng is
a share of smokers in the study itself.
Q. This was the exhibit that yon
directed me to at your last deposition to show
the trend for Capri; is that corr'ect?
A. That's correct.
Q. Is it fair to say that this trend
representation is the trend of sm~okers who would
be included in B&W's switching st'udies?
A. Pardon me?
Q. The trend ~hat you r~eferred me to,
this graph, this line, that's the trend with the
percentage of smokers who would h~ave been in
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658
NANCY G. NAUGHTON - C0~FIDENTIAL
future switching studies?
A. This is the share of~ smokers
which -- it's not volume based, i.~'s smoker based
but it's representative of the ma~rket through
1990, and that's Capri's trend ~hlrough 1990.
And
this goes to those smokers who we, re in the
switcher through 1990.
And your testimony i.s that the data
is representative of s:mokers
the country who smoke Capri and Super
on page~93
throughout
Slims?
A.
The share is reasonably reflective
o~ the market. Switchers overstate Some
categories and I believe it under'states black
smokers, and it may overstate older smokers.
But
it's the same -- ~ mean, any meas'ure has
shortcomings but these shares are roughly
comparable Ko the shares o£ each [bra~d in the
marketplace.
Q. All right. Let's talks a look at
that. I'm going to hand you for ~your reference a
copy of Exhibit 696 which is repo:rt of D~nnis J.
Dugan. I have it open to the peg,e with
production number BWT~68-064 and ~it's also
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
numbered BBI-212. And it continues on to the
next page which is in that same production
sequence.
Would you look a~ the 12 month
moving average for Capri in Decem~ber '87?
A. Okay.
Q. What percentage is t~hat?
A. .17.
Q. Would you look in Ex~hibit 679 on
page 93? And wha~ percentage is shown there for
Capri in 19877
A. °2°
Q. DO you co~sider those to be
reasonably close?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you look in 1988 in the Dugan
report, December 1988, 12 month m.oving average,
what percentage is shown there?
A. .5.
Q. And would you look i:n Exhibit 679
for 1988, what percentage is show:n for Capri?
A. .8.
Q. Would you consider t~ose to be
reasonably close?
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~5
the time
somewhat
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON C0~FrDENTIAL
Well, given that I ~on*t know about
lag here, I mean it is groing to be
overstated probably for females but this
also has you growing and you've g[ot expansion
steps in here so the i2 month mov'ing may be
understated, I don't know. But t.his is probably
somewhat overstated for females.
Q. "This" being Exhibit 679, the
switcher study?
A. Switcher.
Q. It's overstated for females?
A. It might be. Again as I mentioned,
I don't zun the switcher studies, I just look at
the data. As far as directional, I don't report
my share based on switcher and sa[y only Capri is
1.2 percent based on share of smo[kers. That's
not how I used it.
Q. You pointed ~his pag,e out to me to
show the trend of smokers?
A. Exactly.
Q. And I'm trying to fiend out what the
validity of those numbers are bec~ause you tell me
they are reasonably close to real llfe shaEe.
A. If yon look at the t~ezd, they went
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON
Well, given that
lag here, I mean
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CO~?TDENTIAL
I don't know about
it is g~oing to be
the time
somewhat overstated probably for
also has you growing
steps in here so the
understated, X don't
females but this
and you've g~ot expansion
i2 month mowing may be
know. But t.his is probably
somewhat overstated for females.
Q. "This" being Exhibit 679, the
switcher study?
A. Switcher.
Q. It's overstated for females?
A. It might be. Again as I mentioned,
I don't run the switcher studies,
the data. As far as directional,
my share based on ewitcher and easy only
1.2 percent based on sha~e of smo[kers.
not how I used it.
Q. You pointed this pag,e OUt to
show the treed of smokers?
A. Exactly.
Q. And I'm trying
validity
they are
A.
just look at
don't report
Capri is
That's
me to
to fiend out what the
Of those numbers are bec~ause you tell me
reasonably close to real llfe share.
If you look at the t~rend, they went
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON -
from .5 in December to almost
share data. This went from .8
less than a share.
Q. Why don't
661
CONFIDENTIAL
.6. I mean, this
to; -- maybe that's
we continuLe on this
exercise? If you look at the 12 month moving
average in the Dugan report, Exhi.bit 696 for
December 1989.
A. Yes.
Q. What percentage is t.hat?
A. .57.
Q. And what percentage is shown
Exhibit 679 for Capri in 19897
A. LOOKS like .85 or so.
Q. Isn't it I?
A. Yes, it's .95 or som~ethin~.
Q. About i?
A. I mean, just eyeball.ins it.
Q. I understand that.
is close to 1 compared to .57 for
:So .9 something
the 12 month
moving average?
A. Right.
Q. Are those reasonably close?
A. No. Well, 6/10, 9/1(0, when you're
looking at this -- and it's overstated for
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
females. As far as trends, it's not absolute
share in going from 5/10 to 6/10 roughly, or from
2/10 to 5/10. I mean, there's definitely the
same trend and this is MSA which, you know, who
k~ows about in terms of how you'~e running the 12
month moving changes from month t:o month; both of
them are sort o~ shaky. I use t~is for trend and
I think this is wha~ I said the l.ast time we
looked a~
Q. And the trend in thi.s, Exhibit 679,
the trend slope of ~hs line ~s fo~rever continuing
upwards in tame, correct?
at 1990.
Q.
forever,
a txend
form.
MR. GOULD: Object. ion. It stops
Where do you get foreve~r, counsel?
The trend of the lin.e continues
correct? By definition, isn't that what
is?
MR. GOULD: Objection. Compound
THE WITNESS: NO. I don't
it. I mean, this is a growth ~re:nd. That
doesn't mean it's going to consensus -- I mean, to
my mind, and we talked about that earlier as
well, it doesn't say Capri and th,e acceptance of
see
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON - CONFIDENTIAL
Super Slims is taking over the mark by any
means. It was Just a growth cur~le
a positive indicator.
BY MR. HINTZ:
Q. So is your testimony about
663
there that was
trend
that Capri would have made the sales in the
shaded area for Super Slims and mo mo~e in
outyears, you don't have any understanding of
what would happen in the later y~ars?
A. I think we saw what we were looking
at. In terms of the forecast, Cmpri would in
fact over time flatten out as we hit that ceiling
of sorts as far as acceptance of 17 millimeters
in a marketplace.
Q. And you also predict.ed in documents
that Super Slims would expand the~ market,
correct? We looked at those last time.
A. That was a hypothesis that maybe
that was an option, given their n.ame was Super
slims and it was a product descriptor.
Q. That was a prediction you made?
That's the
A. That was one theory.
brand manager's job to do that.
Q. To put forth the best
theory they
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had
NANCY G. NAUGHTON -
at the time?
A. Yes, of course.
664
CONFIDENTIAL
And as I recall,
that was more key issues,
Q. Let me
report, BWT366-055,
THat's Nielsen data,
A. Yes.
Q. And I believe
can get is a December 1988
correct?
A.
February 1988.
Q. Would you look at the
1988? What share is shown there?'
Exhibit
in 1988,
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
things to consider.
show you a pmge in the Dugan
also numbered BBI-217.
correct?
Exhibit 696,
A.
the e~rliest date we
share;~ is that
There's nothing for 19817?
That's correct. It's January,
D~cember
A. .61.
Q. Would you look again~ back at
679, the graph from the slwitching
the share is .8, correct.?
study
That's right.
Are those reasonably close?
NO. This is overstatsd.
In 1989 the Dugan relport,
what's the share for Capri there?
And what was the dat,e, excuse me?
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NANCY G. NAUGMTON C0~[DENTIAL
Q. December 1989.
A, .61. December 1989 is .61.
Q. And what -- I see t~ere's no
December 1988 there.
December 19887
A. Yes.
Q. What's
A. .56.
Q. If it's any consolat~ion, ~ had
wrong in my notes ~oo.
Is .56 reasonably cl.ose to the
switching s~udy .8 number?
Do we need to ~o back to
the December 19887
665
it
A. NO, it's lower.
Q. And the Dugan Neilse,n 1989 which you
testified is .61, is that reasonably close to
what we agreed w~s .9 something, or I?
A. No, that's lower in the switcher.
Q. And in the Dugan Nielsen data,
Exhibit 696, for DecemDer 1990, wlhat's the share
there?
A. .59.
Q. And is that reasonab~ly close to the
.9 that is shown in Exhibi~ 679?
A. No, that's lower.
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NANCY G.
MR. HINTZ:
finished with that.
NAUGHTON C0~FIDENTIAL
Ccuhsel, we're
666
MR. GOULD: You don't want to show
her any others?
MR. HINTZ: No, I don't want to
show you work product on other pmges.
MR. GOULD: ~ presumed you were
showing us exhibits. We don't h~ve them,
counsel.
BY MR. HINTZ:
Would you turn to page 598 of
Exhibit 679?
This page represents~
and noB-menthol, correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. In terms of the comp, esition of the
sample for this switching study?
A. That's right.
Q. So that's what those: percentages
represent, percent of the overall sample, that
is, Capri menthol or Capri non-menthol?
A. That's correct.
Q. What trend is indicated ~or the
Capri non-menthol in this graph o~n page 598?
Capri menthol
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menthol in this graph?
A. It's declining.
Q. Starting in 1987,
shown for Capri non-menthol?
NANCY G. NAUGHTON -
It looks pretty stea.dy.
What trend is shown for
A. About .I.
Q.
menthol?
Ao
Q. The
A. Yes,
Q. In 1988
non-menthol?
A.
menthol?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
non-menthol?
A. About .3.
Q. .3 or .4?
And what's the share
same?
that's right.
what's the s[hare
A little over 2/10.
And what's the share for
About 6/10.
About triple for men~hol?
Yes.
1989, what's the shame
667
C0~FIDENTIAL
a Capri
wh.at's the share
shown ~or Capri
for Capri
Capri
shown for
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non-menthol?
A.
A.
Q.
A.
0.
NANCY G.
Looks like
And what's
About .6.
1990,
NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
.3 to me., Closer to
the share fcr menthol?
what's the sh~re for
the shar~
ove~ .4.
.5?
.4,
And what's
A little
Close to
.5°
Are those relative s~hares
for menthol?
668
.4.
representative of actual sales of! Capri during
those years on a menthol/non-ment.hol comparison?
A. I don't think we wer'e that skewed
for menthol in actual sales. But that would go
sort of hand in hand with, you kn.ow, potential
female overstatement in this study, that there's
more menthol use. I don't know if that would pan
out Or no~ but that might be some sort of skew.
Q. So for two of the gr~aphs we looked
at, you hypothesized that it's du.e potentially to
female overstatement in the swltclher studies?
A. Yes. Again, I don't construct this
and l'm not real familiar with wh,ere it
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669
NANCY G. NAUGHTON - C0~FIDENTIAL
overstates and where it understat~es, and I use
switcher as a general trend indic~ator. I would
not use this as necessarily what's happening to
my menthol~non-menthol skew becau~se I could see
what that's like in the market.
Q. So why would you use: page 93
what the trend ~s?
A. 0nly as a sort of in.dicator. I
mean, we look at that and say, do. we have a
problem with menthol, which is an indicator,
which is the way I used this as f.ar as trends are
concerned, you know, as an indicator of what is
goins on.
MR. HINTZ: As we ~aSreed, it's
five o'clock. For everyone's ben,efit we should
break un£il tomorrow at 9:30.
(TIME NOTED: 5:00 P.M.)
o0o
to show
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NANCY G. NAUGHTON
STATE O~ NEW YORK
ss:
COUNTY 0F NEW YORK )
CON[FIDENTIAL
670
I, NANCY G. NAUGHTON', the witness
herein, having read the foregoing testimony of
the pa~es of this deposition do h.ereby certify it
to be a true and correct transcri[pt, subject to
if any, shown on the attached
the corrections,
pa~e.
oOa
NANCY G. NAU@HTON
Subscribed and sworn to before me
this day of 19__
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NANCY G,
STATE OF NEW YORK
COUNTY OF NEW YORK
I wish to make the
the following reasons:
PAGE LINE
CEANGE:
REASON:
CHANGE:
REASON:
CHANGE:
REASON:
CHANGE:
REASON:
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REASON:
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NAUGHTON CONFIDENTIAL
Pg__of__Pgs
followimg changes, for
671
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672.
STATE OP NEW YORK )
COUNTY OF NEW YORK )
I, JOYCE G. ABELES, a Shorthand
Reporter and Notary Public withim and for the
State of New York, do hereby certify:
That the witness whose deposition is
hereinbefore set forth, was duly sworn and ~hat
the within transcript is a true ~ecord of the
testimony given by such witness.
I further certify that I am not
related to any of the parties to this action by
blood or marriage and that I am i.n no way
interested in the outcome of this matter.
IN WETNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto
set my hand this 16th day ofSept~ember , 1992 .
// / z' "
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INDEX
NANCY G. NAUGET0~
EXAMINATIONS CONDUCTED:
By-Mr. Hintz
By-Mr. Hintz
Information requested
NOON & PRATT
PAGe:
463
540
6O3
673
LINE:
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NANCY G. NAUGHTO~
NO :
731
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736
DESCHIPTION:
Document entitled "Strategic
Advertising Campaigns" 3rd
1990 by Don E. Schultz
Document bearing Bates
NOS. BWT308-99-196
Document bearing Bakes
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BWT363-001-031
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NOON & PRATT
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EXHIBIT INDEX
NANCY G. NAUGHTON
DESCRIPTION:
Document bearing Bates
Nos. BWT324-0143-145
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NANCY G. NAUGHT0~
NO:
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DESCRIPTION:
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No, BWT316-1809
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