Tobacco Documents Online

r0- .1 2 3 4 5 A 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEW JERSEY CIVIL ACTION NO. 84-56 (AET) ANN MARIE T. BARNES, individually, as Executrix of the Estate of Raymond T. Barnes and as Guardian ad Litem of Laurel A-. Barnes and Mary Meagan Barnes, her minor children, Plaintiffs, V S • R. J. REYNOLDS TOBACCO COMPANY, A New Jersey Corporation; JOHN DOE 1; THE TOBACCO INSTITUTE; JOHN DOE 2; JOHN DOE 3; JOHN DOE 4; JOHN DOE 5; JOHN DOE 6; JOHN DOE 7; JOHN DOE 8; JOHN DOE 9; and JOHN DOE 10, Defendants. -------------------------------- . : (PROTECTED PORTION) . . : FRANK G. COLBY, PhD : : : H H TRANSCRIPT of testimony as taken by and before JUDY L. FLOWER, a Certified Shorthand Reporter and' Notary Public of the State of New ,Jersey, at the offices of RIKER, DANZIG, SCHERER & HYLAND, 744 Broad Street, Newark, New Jersey, on Thursday, April 18, 1985, commencing at 9:40 in the forenoon. woQa and spinelli rrcrtificbri chnrthrtnrt rArpArters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. ,!, 07052 201-731 •9666 I-

iG 1 PROTECTED PROTECTED (The following is a Protected pL 3 of t-he transcript.) MR. PERRETTI: Of course, we're 4 designating this portion of the transcript from 5 this point on until you get into another subject 6 as confidential. 7 MR. WEINER: Does the record reflect 8 s the momentary excuse of an appearance on behalf of 9 the Tobacco Institute that was pursuant to a 10 request by Mr. Perretti, and there was certainly 3.1 no argument by counsel for the Tobacco Institute. 12 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes. 13 The reporter reads the following 14 question:) 15 "QUESTION: Is R. J. Reynolds trying 16 to develop a safer cigarette or did they try while- 17 you were working there?" 18 A. Number 1, I very adamantly am opposed and 19 protest or whatever against the word "safer 20 M cigarette" because it carries an implication that 21 cigarettes are now not safe. As you know, my .• ~ 22 point of view is that we have an open question of 01 23 --t %o whether or not cigarettes are safe, so if you rV ~ 24 don't take a position that it's a nonsafe ~ 0 ~ 25 cigarette, you cannot talk about safer cigarettes. waQa and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201 •731 •9666

1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PROTECTED PROTECTED BY MR. WEINER: 341 Q. Is it your position that cigarettes are safe? A. No. I said, I told you, it's an open question of whether or not they are safe. That is my position. Q. So you can't say whether they're safe; you can't say that they are safe? A. I cannot say they are safe, but I do not say they are not safe. It's an open question, so using that kind of terminology is, I think, misleading. It's the same as the Surgeon General saying, Smoking is bad for you, and I say, No, it is not. It's a question of neither yes nor know. It's what we describe by the term "controversy," and the same applies to a loaded term like "safer cigarette." Q. It is your perception, though, that the public "feels that there is such a thing as a safer cigarette? A. Some part of the public or some part of the ~ scientific community who believe that smoking is o u, %0 bad for you, they have that kind of perception, ^' ~ ~ `^ yes. Q. Is R. J. Reynolds -- when I say "is," 0 LA J woga and spinelli 405 Northfield Avenue West Orsnge. N. J. 0705; 'flll !'i1 OGGG

1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 PROTECTED PROTECTED I me`a•n the time period '80 through now, 1980 342 through now. Has R. J. Reynolds been developing or have they developed a cigarette tailored to the market which consists of those members of the public who feel there is such a thing as a safer cigarette? A. I cannot talk about anything which happened i after I left R. J. R. and which is protected by the trade secret concept, but talking about the time before that, there was offered to Reynolds and other tobacco companies the various concepts of basically lowering tar and nicotine by a variety of ways. Some of them included things like nontobacco substitutes or nontobacco fillers for tobacco cigarettes. Reynolds, like other tobacco companies, got offered at least one of these products and did a very extensive study of one of these tobac-co substitutes, or whatever you want to call them, I mean the nontobacco product which was to be put into cigarettes as part of the tobacco filling of the cigarette, and there,was quite a bit of breakdown of the chemistry and so forth, so it took quit,e a bit of research effort. It was something that was patented. I don't remember the 25. woQa and spinelli ---.:ft....,t ~i...,{h~nr( rftr1nTfP, rS ~ 10 N ~ tn u, 0 Ln 405 Northtield Avenue West Orsnge, N. J. 07052 201 •731 •9666

PROTECTED I PROTECTED 1 I-name of: -the` :invent-o:r. I do-n-' t ewen remember the 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 specific trade name. 343 Then there was one product that was -- at least two products. One was developed by one of the cigarette filter companies, and then there was something which was offered to R. J. Reynolds from some sort of an outside inventor. That was mostly part of the development effort to develop a cigarette which would have, quote, lower tar, closed quote, and it took a tremendous amount of work because the chemical composition would determine whether or not it would develop components into smoke, tobacco smoke, and so forth, which was quite a bit of work. This is work which I consider -- arrd I'don't think it can be argued -- that is in the - area'of product development, like it would be in some ways similar to having a new style filter, so that was wotk done, and that was before the term -- which I don't like -- the term "safer cigarette," because it was used by you when you were talking about low tar cigarettes and that they were manufactured by Reynolds as well as by other tobacco companies in response to market demands. Q. In other words, the development of waga and spinelli rer~;l;or1 chnrdhnnr! ror~nrfP,rs s.t N ul 10 N S u, 0 u, 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 205-731 •9f,FR

344 PROTECTED PROTECTED r•• t 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1®wer•tar,=lower-•nicotine:cigarettes was-the company's response to the public's demand for a safer cigarette? A. No, public demands for lower tar cigarettes, I don't want to use the term "safer cigarettes"; what maybe part of the public called "safer cigarettes." That's a different way of phrasing it. 9 1 Q. That's really the way I thought I did 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 phrase it in my question. A. Right, but again, I just totally object to this concept. That is basically the story, and it's a very short story behind which there was a tremendous amount of time, labor, and effort expended by a great segment of the research and - development department. Are you aware of any effort on the part of the R. J. Reynolds Tobacco company to design a ci.garette that did not contain certain of the chemicals which you have already acknowledged are present in cigarette smoke tar? A. No work, to my knowledge and recollection, M was done which, in the later years, was aimed at o N removing certain substances from tobacco. It was done in previous years, way, way back. When, I wogo and spinelli rjmriH;^rJ chnrthnnri rAnnNPrs ~ ~ Lei 0 tn 1 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201 •731 •9666

9 345 ~ I PROTECTED dan'-t remember!p °sa-y_ :about PROTECTED the =si-xties and - 2 thereabouts. I mentioned this to Dr. Wynder, and 3 he, at various times in his career, has promoted 4 what he calls, in quotes, safer cigarettes, closed 5 quotes, and he says, Oh, well it's as simple as 6 pie. All we have to do is remove the precursors 7 of the bad guys; i.e., what's called benzopyrene 8 and so forth . If we remove the precursors from 9 the tobacco, then the smoke is going to be free .10 from these substances which s'upposedly are bad for 11 ,you. 12 That was an idea which was put on the 13 table, so to speak, by this Dr. Wynder, and 14 obviously Reynolds, like any other tobacco company 15 in a very competetive situation that the cigaret-te 16 industry is in, had to deal with that idea since 17 he said, Well, it's simple, all you do is remove 18 the precursors of the bad guys, but he worked in 19 that particular area. That took months, maybe 20 years, even. I don't remember that. 21 But in the meantime, Dr. Wynder 22 himself worked in that particular area, and he ~ Ln 23 found out that what he had done as the remedy of N ~ u, 24 all remedies was no remedy whatsoever; that Ln 0 Ln 25 whenever he removed precursors of the so-called I 405 Northfield Avenue waga and spinelli West Orange. N. J. 07052 201-731 • 9666 r-PrtiflPCi shorthonci reoorters

-1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PROTECTED PROTECTED "ft`h'e =06d=~-e-s-Lr1 t= rw:a s t h e s am e b e c a u s e when he did this removal, he also removed -- and the test'was done on mouse skin -- he removed constituents of tobacco smoke which are anticarcinogens that are in tobacco smoke compounds which, on mouse skin or other animal experiments, are anticarcinogens, so he ended up , in the end with a product which, as far as his biological test is concerned, was not any better than what he really started with. Q. What were the anticarcinogens that were removed along with the precursors of the bad guys? A. Off the top of my head, I cannot give you 346' any particular chemical entities. I would have-to look at my files. Right off the top of my head - this very minute, I cannot give you any specific compounds. Let me think a minute. Maybe I can think of on-e of them. I can't tell you. Tomorrow; I can't tell you today. The specific chemical entities which are anticarcinogens, I just can't remember off the top of my head, but there are. There's a whole gammet.of them. Some of them are identified as chemical entities. Some of them are simply that the, quote, tar, closed quote, which waga and spinelii - chnrthnnti rAnnrlP.ts X i..,iM. Ln u, 10 N -~r un Ln 0 u, j 405 Northtield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201731-9666 .

1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 , Y. 347 PROTECTED PROTECTED -.h~ basi,.bef,o r e_ .he,.r_Qmo_e d tke. p r.Q_c_u r`s.or s~ nd, t h e . _ . ,.. ..w__-' - -• - - - • • ,. tar which'he had after removing the precursors had the same effect on the mouse skin. Q. Has R. J. Reynolds done any research in the area of product development to design or market a cigarette containing an excess or an enhanced quantity of these anticarcinogens? A. No, because -t I mean it was a purely theoretical concept at the time, and the test which was used to test them out is, in my judgment and the judgment of my colleagues, the test which was used by Wynder and company, was, in my judgment, not a valid test, the mouse skin painting. Q. Isn't it so that even in the tobac-co industry circles, that Dr. Wynder's experiment is valid to indicate that the application of benzopyrene to the backs of certain types of mice will cause-tumors on those mice? A. The application of benzopyrene is a single chemical substance. As we discussed before, smoke •` is a conglomerate of hundreds and thousands of compounds. Q. Isn't it accepted among your peers in the industry that Dr. Wynder's experiments at woga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange. N. J. 0705' 201.731-9666 _ I

PROTECTED PROTECTED •;.-_ :-' :L e =c:. - r, e ce r..ovec cr, = ' least~have validity in that theyestablish if•you 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 smear tar, cigarette smoke tar on the backs of certain strains of mice, they will get tumors; isn't that agreed? / 348 A. Yes, but what's not agreed and what is not accepted is that these are valid experiments. Mouse painting experiments are no longer considered -- even by the people who I said before are against smoking -- they are no longer considered a valid experiment and technique. Q. I didn't ask you that. I just asked you: Is it agreed, is it accepted in the industry, in the industry of scientific circles, that the application of cigarette smo•ke tar, as Dr. Wynder applied it to the backs of mice, in fact., caused tumors in other mice? A. That is correct, yes. Q. You just feel it's not proper to generalize that to the human experience? A. I do not believe it's a valid test in terms of the human experience. Number 1, because nobody- smokes tar. People smoke smoke, they don't smoke tar. Tar is an artifactual smoke condensate. That is Number 1. Number 2, the quantities involved are in terms of thousands of cigarettes. waga and spinelii ., - - -' ----baA.P 1 405 Northfield Avenue We:t Orange. N. d. 070S2 ..n. ~e~ ooca

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 . 23 24 PROTECTED PROTECTED 1 Somebody has made Some calculations, and we're talking of somebody consuming thousands of cigarettes per day, so whichever way you look at 349 it, it's not a valid test. And to repeat, that is, either tacitly or openly, recognized by a great many of the people who are against cigarettes, scientific people who are against cigarettes. . f Q. Are yop suggesting that when a human smoker smokes cigarettes, when he inhales the smoke, he does not get tar in his lungs? A. That is correct. He doesn't get tar because tar is an artifact. Q. It's a byproduct of combustion. Correct? A. No. Smoke is, but not tar. Tar is an - artifact because you prepare a condensate, so it's not something which is taken in by the smoker. The smoker takes in smoke which, technically, you define as a..n aerosol. No smoker ever takes in any tar. Q. Doctor, have you ever exhaled a breath containing cigarette smoke through a napkin or towel? A. Sure. 25 1 Q. And what do you see on the napkin or . -~ N ~ ~ Ln 405 Northfield Avenue waga and spinelli West Orange. N. J. 07052 201 •731 •9666 r-crt;fiorl chnrthond reoorters

PROTECTED PROTECTED . 1 towel when you do that? A. You see some brown stains. 3 Q. What is that brown stain? 4 A. Well, that is some part of the gas which is 5 deposited on the napkin, but the lung is not a 6 napkin. _ 7 MR. WEINER: I'm getting away from , 8 product development. We can call him back. Alan 9 has to leave now. 10 (Mr. Darnell leaves at this time and 11 Mr. Quinn returns.) 12 (End of Protected portion.) 13 14 15 16 .r 21 22 23 24 25 0 in II waga and spinelli ---aa•-.j -~...s~.....,..1 .o..a..inre 405 Northfietd Avenue West Orange. N. J. 07052 'fn1 7'!1 GaAC a