Tobacco Documents Online

C 0 N F I D E IT T I A L 1 1 STATE OF MINNESOTA DISTRICT COURT 2 COUNTY OF RAMSEY SECOND JUDICIAL DISTRICT 3 4 The State of Minnesota, 5 by Hubert H. Humphrey, III, 6 its attorney general, 7 and 8 Blue Cross and Blue Shield 9 of Minnesota, 10 Plaintiffs, 11 vs. File No. Cl-94-8565 12 Philip Morris Incorporated, R.J. 13 Reynolds Tobacco Company, Brown 14 & Williamson Tobacco Corporation, 15 B.A.T. Industries P.L.C., Lorillard 16 Tobacco Company, The American 17 Tobacco Company, Liggett Group, Inc., 18 The Council for Tobacco Research-U.S.A., 19 Inc., and The Tobacco Institute, Inc., 20 Defendants. 21 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 22 DEPOSITION OF JAMES F. GLENN 23 Volume I, Pages 1 - 283 24 25 STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 L.r Ti"e i i N 0-"f' 2"i.~ .~ ,~

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 2 1 (The following is the deposition of JAMES 2 F. GLENN, taken pursuant to Notice of Taking 3 Deposition, under Rule 30.02(f), at the offices of 4 Dorsey & Whitney, 16th Floor, 250 Park Avenue, New 5 York, New York, commencing at approximately 9:11 6 o'clock a.m., September 3, 1997.) 7 APPEARANCES: 8 On Behalf of the Plaintiffs: 9 Daniel A. O'Fallon 10 Robins, Kaplan, Miller & Ciresi 11 Attorneys at Law 12 2800 LaSalle Plaza 13 800 LaSalle Avenue 14 Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402 15 On Behalf of Philip Morris Incorporated: 16 Randall Frykberg 17 Dorsey & Whitney 18 Attorneys at Law 19 Pillsbury Center South 20 220 South Sixth Street 21 Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402-1498 22 23 24 25 STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C" T R H N 0 4 2- a I "

(I C O N F I D E N T I A L 3 1 On Behalf of Lorillard Tobacco Company: 2 Connie S. Iversen 3 Doherty, Rumble & Butler 4 Attorneys at Law 5 2800 Minnesota World Trade Center 6 30 East Seventh Street 7 St. Paul, Minnesota 55101-4999 8 On Behalf of The Council for Tobacco 9 Research-U.S.A., Inc., and the Deponent: 10 Bruce G. Merritt and Eric M. Falkenstein 11 Debevois & Plimpton 12 Attorneys at Law 13 875 Third Avenue 14 New York, New York 10022 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 i.r f f . HN 0`°f' `2G S. 3

C O N F I D E N T I A L 1 4 I N D E X 2 EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION PAGE `4ARKED 3 Exhibit 1148 "A Frank Statement to 4 Cigarette Smokers," Bates 5 11309817 75 6 1149 Agenda, TIRC Meeting, 7 January 18, 1954, Bates 8 JH 000395-400 8: 9 1150 Forwarding Memorandum, Bates 10 JH 000493-501 7= 11 1151 Memo dated December 8, 1970, 12 Wakeham to Cullman, Bates 13 2022200161-3 106 14 1152 Press release for December 27, 15 1954, Bates 11311164-6 126 16 1153 Press release for June 4, 17 1957, Bates 11313128 14~1 ~ 18 1154 Press release for July 15, 19 1957, Bates 11313243-4 148 20 1155 Press release for November 21 27, 1959, Bates 11311722-5 161 22 1156 Press release for April 19, 23 1963, Bates 11312128-30 17C 24 25 STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR 1 Nl I 042814

C O N F I D E N T I A L 5 1 1157 Press release for February 2 3, 1969, Bates CTR PUBLIC 3 STATEMENT 001239-43 178 4 1158 Excerpt of testimony of 5 Glenn before Congress 200 6 1159 Associated Press release 7 and attached Star & Tribune 8 article 203 9 1160 Response of CTR-USA to 10 Plaintiffs' First Set of 11 Requests for Admission 220 12 1161 Memo dated April 5, 1968, 13 Wakeham to Holtzman, Bates 14 1000323262 230 15 1162 Report on Visit to U.S.A. 16 and Canada 17th April - 12th 17 May 1958, Bates 301083806-7 241 18 1163 Memo dated October 23, 1956, 19 Hoyt to Hartnett, Bates 20 50067727-8 252 21 22 23 24 25 STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 15188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R N N 0 42 8 1 '53'

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:00:32 00:00:34 00:00:34 00:00:36 00:00:40 00:00:42 00:00:44 00:00:48 00:00:48 00:00:50 00:00:52 00:00:52 00:00:56 00:00:58 00:01:08 00:01:14 00:01:16 6 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 (Witness sworn.) 3 JAMES F. GLENN 4 called as a witness, being first duly 5 sworn, was examined and testified as 6 follows: 7 ADVERSE EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. O'FALLON: 9 Q. Could you please state your full name for the 10 record. 11 A. James Francis Glenn. 12 Q. Dr. Glenn, my name is Dan O'Fallon and I'm 13 representing the State of Minnesota and Blue Cross 14 Blue Shield in an action brought against a number of 15 defendants, including The Council for Tobacco 16 Research. 17 You currently work for The Council for Tobacco 18 Research; correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 THE REPORTER: Just a moment, please. Off 21 the record. 22 (Discussion off the record.) 23 BY MR. O'FALLON: 24 Q. Dr. Glenn, do you understand -- I'm sorry. 25 Could you tell me your current position? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 i.r f R t t N i..d 420'6.7G 167

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:01:20 00:01:24 00:01:26 00:01:28 00:01:32 00:01:36 00:01:40 00:01:42 00:01:46 00:01:48 00:01:48 00:01:50 00:01:52 00:01:54 00:01:56 00:01:58 00:02:02 00:02:02 00:02:04 00:02:10 00:02:12 00:02:12 00:02:14 00:02:16 00:02:20 7 1 A. I'm chairman of the board of The Council for 2 Tobacco Research. 3 Q. Do you have any other titles? 4 A. Yes. I'm professor of surgery, University of 5 Kentucky; past chairman of the department; past 6 director of the Markey Cancer Center at the 7 University; former associate dean and chief of staff 8 of University Hospital. 9 Q. Do you have any other titles at The Council for 10 Tobacco Research? Are you also the president? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And do you hold any other titles? 13 A. I'm the chief executive officer. 14 Q. Anything else? 15 A. No. 16 Q. So you're currently the chief executive of-Fficer, 17 the chairman of the board, and the president for The 18 Council for Tobacco Research; correct? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Dr. Glenn, I believe you've had your deposition 21 taken previously; correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Could you give me all instances in which you've 24 had your deposition taken? 25 A. I can't recall every instance because it goes STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C06TR 1"IN 042-817"

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:02:28 00:02:32 00:02:38 00:02:42 00:02:52 00:03:02 00:03:16 00:03:20 00:03:22 00:03:22 00:03:26 00:03:30 00:03:32 00:03:34 00:03:34 00:03:38 00:03:12 00:03:42 00:03:44 00:03:46 00:03:46 00:03:52 00:03:56 00:03:56 00:03:58 8 1 back over 40 years. Mostly relative to medical 2 matters. With regard to The Council for Tobacco 3 Research, I've been deposed on four occasions. 4 Q. And what are those occasions, sir? 5 A. The Broin case in Miami, Florida; the Louisiana 6 case; the -- one of the Willner cases in 7 Jacksonville, Florida; and one other deposition by 8 Mr. Motley and his associates. 9 Q. Was that in connection with the Mississippi 10 litigation? 11 A. I think it was in connection with several 12 actions in which he is a participant. 13 Q. Was that the deposition taken on March 18t: of 14 this year? 15 A. I can't tell you that. 16 Q. When were those other depositions taken? And 17 let's start with Broin. When was the Broin 18 deposition taken? 19 A. Three years ago. 20 Q. How about the Louisiana case, when was that 21 taken? 22 A. Earlier this year. 23 Q. Has it been within the last two or three mcnths? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Was it taken in February? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 4.r !aR ! II I 0 I iwc V18

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:04:00 00:04:04 00:04:06 00:04:08 00:04:12 00:04:14 00:04:18 00:04:20 00:04:20 00:04:24 00:04:26 00:04:34 00:04:36 00:04:40 00:04:40 00:04:46 00:04:50 00:04:54 00:04:56 00:04:58 00:05:04 00:05:10 00:05:16 00:05:18 00:05:18 9 1 A. I can't remember, Mr. O'Fallon. It was taken 2 sometime early this year as I recall. 3 Q. Okay. And how about the Jacksonville, Florida 4 deposition, when was that taken? 5 W A ll I thi k . e n -- 6 I was deposed by Mr. Motley on two sepa rate 7 occasions. The first one was last year. 8 Q. 1996? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And then a second deposition in 1997? 11 A This ear . y , yes. 12 Q. And that's the sum total of all the depositions 13 you've give.^n on behalf of The Council for Tobacco 14 Research or as an employee of The Council for Tobacco 15 Research? 16 A. I can't tell you that. I think it is. 17 Q. To the best of your recollection, there have 18 been no other depositions that you've given while 19 you've b een an employee of The Council for T obacco 20 Research . 21 A. I gave one additional deposition recent ly to one 22 of Mr. Rosenblatt's associates , Mr. Hoag, relative to 23 a class action s it i Fl id u n or a. 24 Q. Approximately when did you give that deposition, 25 sir? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 1S188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 ".TlR HN 04228 19

C O N F I D E N T I A L 10 000518 000528 000530 00:0530 00:05:38 0005:42 0005:42 000544 00:0546 00:05:46 00:05:48 0005:50 0005:52 000556 000558 000600 000604 00:0604 00:0606 00:0606 00:0608 000608 000618 000622 000624 1 A. About a month ago. 2 Q. Any other depositions while you were an employee 3 of The Council for Tobacco Research that you can 4 recall? 5 A. I already explained that to you. I have 6 appeared in a number of medical malpractice -- 7 Q. No, I'm sorry, while you were an employee of the 8 Tobacco Research. 9 A. While I was an employee of the -- 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. -- Council for Tobacco Research, I gave medical 12 malpractice depositions. 13 Q. Okay. Okay. I'm sorry, I was unclear about 14 that. Thanks for clarifying that. So that's -- 15 So in the last nine years -- I think you started 16 with The Council for Tobacco Research in 1987 -- 17 you've also been -- you've also given some medical 18 malpractice depositions. 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Were you testifying on behalf of the plaintiffs 21 or defendants in those cases? 22 A. Both. 23 Q. When you were testifying in those cases, were 24 you testifying on issues of liability, or subsequent 25 issues of treatment? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR NN 042 8'*:'0

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:06:32 00:06:34 00:06:34 00:06:36 00:06:38 00:06:40 00:06:40 00:06:52 00:06:54 00:06:56 00:06:58 00:07:00 00:07:02 00:07:04 00:07:06 00:07:08 00:07:10 00:07:14 00:07:16 00:07:18 00:07:24 00:07:38 00:07:42 00:07:4 2 00:07:46 11 1 A. I was testifying on -- on both. 2 Q. Were you a treating physician in any of those 3 cases? 4 A. No. 5 Q. So you were testifying as an expert witness in 6 those cases? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Approximately how many such depositions have you 9 given in the last nine years? Again I'm looking for 10 a rough estimate, not exactly. 11 A. Depositions or testimony? 12 Q. Let's go with depositions first and then I'll 13 ask you testimony second. 14 MR. MERRITT: This is excluding the ones in 15 his capacity as a CTR person. 16 MR. O'FALLON: Right. This is excluding 17 the CTR depositions. 18 A. Possibly six. 19 Q. And you've testified in trial how many times in 20 the last nine years, excluding anything done on 21 behalf of The Council for Tobacco Research? 22 A. Again, approximately a half dozen. 23 Q. Have you ever testified at trial on behalf of 24 The Council for Tobacco Research? 25 A. No, sir. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CxT R M N 0 4 " `822 1

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:07:50 00:07:52 00:07:52 00:08:04 00:08:08 00:08:10 00:08:12 00:08:14 00:08:14 00:08:18 00:08:22 00:08:24 00:08:26 00:08:26 00:08:28 00:08:30 00:08:32 00:08:34 00:08:36 00:08:38 00:08:42 00:08:44 00:08:46 00:08:56 12 1 Q. Are you currently scheduled to testify in the 2 Florida class action lawsuit? 3 A. No. 4 Q. I'd just like to talk for a quick minute about 5 your testimony and consulting in medical malpraczice 6 cases. 7 Are you part of a group of surgeons or a group 8 of doctors who consults as part of a company? 9 A. No. 10 Q. I ask that because there is around the cour.:~ry 11 several search organizations, and certain doctors -- 12 doctors are participants. You aren't one of those; 13 correct? 14 A. No. 15 Q. So when you've been contacted in those cases, 16 you've simply been contacted individually? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Have you throughout your career been a 19 testifying expert in medical malpractice cases? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Can you give me a rough estimate of how many 22 times you've either been listed as an expert or 23 testified, either through deposition or at trial, in 24 medical malpractice cases? 25 A. Perhaps 40. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 1T R 111 N 0 4 02' 8 -2- 02

C O N F I D E N T I A L 13 00:09:00 00:09:02 00:09:04 00:09:06 00:09:08 00:09:14 00:09:16 00:09:24 00:09:26 00:09:30 00:09:30 00:09:32 00:09:38 00:09:38 00:09:40 00:09:42 00:09:44 00:09:48 00:09:50 00:10:02 00:10:16 00:10:16 00:10:20 00:10:24 00:10:30 1 Q. Currently when you testify as an expert in 2 cases, are you paid an hourly fee? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What are you paid? 5 A. Well it depends on the circumstances, whether I 6 have to travel or not, so the fee is variable. 7 Q. What is the range of the fees? 8 A. Oh, anywhere from 200 to 400 dollars an hour. 9 Q. Is there any distinction made there between 10 whether you're giving deposition testimony as opposed 11 to trial testimony? 12 A. No. 13 Q. So it's 200 for non-traveling cases and 400 for 14 traveling cases? 15 A. No, I didn't say that. 16 Q. Okay. How do you make -- what -- 17 what's a distinction you make there when -- in 18 regarding how much you bill per hour? 19 A. Time and effort, and how much time I have to 20 spend away from my usual occupation. 21 Q. What is your current salary at The Council for 22 Tobacco Research? 23 A. Three hundred fifty thousand dollars a year. 24 Q. And that's your total compensation that you 25 receive each year? What I mean, I know you hold STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R r' I N 0 4r "2 8 22 3

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:10:30 00:10:34 00:10:34 00:10:36 00:10:42 00:10:46 00:10:48 00:10:48 00:10:52 00:10:56 00:10:58 00:11:00 00:11:00 00:11:02 00:11:04 00:11:06 00:11:06 00:11:10 00:11:12 00:11:14 00:11:14 00:11:18 00:11:20 00:11:24 14 1 several positions. Is that the total amount you 2 receive as both chairman of the board, CEO, and 3 president? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. In addition I believe you're also working 6 still as the -- you hold a position at the University 7 of Kentucky? 8 A. A number of them, yes. 9 Q. Okay. How much salary or other compensation do 10 you receive as a member of the University of Kentucky 11 College of Medicine? 12 A. I don't believe that's any of your business, Mr. 13 O'Fallon . 14 MR. MERRITT: Is there any relevance to his 15 other income? I mean this is -- 16 MR. O'FALLON: I'm just trying to figure 17 out every place he works and kind o= the whole 18 package. I guess what I want to know is how much 19 he's receiving from CTR as opposed to his other -- 20 his other employment, so I think there is some 21 relevance. 22 MR. MERRITT: Is there a way we could -- 23 can ou -- y 24 Can we pass on this for t he time being and come 25 back to it after -- after the break? This is STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C" T R- t I N 0 4`82 4

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:11:26 00:11:28 00:11:32 00:11:34 00:11:36 00:11:38 00:11:40 00:11:42 00:11:42 00:11:46 00:11:48 00:11:50 00:11:50 00 : 11 : 52 00:11:56 00:11:56 00:11:58 00:11:58 00:12:00 00:12:00 00:12:00 00:12:02 00:12:02 00:12:04 00:12:04 15 1 obviously -- 2 I understand your -- your argument on relevance, 3 but, you know, it's his other sources of income which 4 may not be, you know, just limited to what he gets 5 from the University of Kentucky. I mean obviously 6 these are -- are very private -- 7 MR. 0'FALLON: Well I'm not -- 8 MR. MERRITT: -- things that I don't -- 9 MR. O'FALLON: I'm not after -- 10 Just so we're clear, I'm not after his prirate 11 investment income and that kind of thing, I'm just 12 basically looking for the income he receives as a 13 doctor. 14 MR. MERRITT: Is there any way to ask 15 him -- to ask him in a comparative sense? 16 Well, I'd like to be able to talk to him 17 about -- 18 MR. O'FALLON: Well -- 19 MR. MERRITT: -- maybe answering the 20 question -- 21 MR. O'FALLON: -- I'll pass on this -- 22 MR. MERRITT: -- and maybe give you ycur -- 23 MR. O'FALLON: -- but I do want to come 24 back to it. 25 MR. MERRITT: Okay. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R ' I N 0 4 2- 82M 5

C O N F I D E N T I A L 16 00:12:04 00:12:06 00:12:12 00:12:16 00 :12 :16 00:12:18 00:12:20 00:12:26 00:12:28 00:12:32 00:12:34 00:12:38 00:12:38 00:12:40 00:12:42 00:12:46 00:12:48 00:12:50 00:12:52 00:12:58 00:13:00 00:13:02 00:13:06 00:13:06 00:13:14 1 BY MR. O'FALLON: 2 Q. Approximately how many hours a year do you spend 3 as -- either doing activities connected with your job 4 as CEO, president, or chairman of the board of The 5 Council for Tobacco Research? 6 A. I've never calculated that. 7 Q. Well can you give me just roughly? Do you spend 8 90 percent of your time doing those jobs? 9 A. Well I'm -- 10 I am essentially in the employ of The Council 11 for Tobacco Research a hundred percent of my ti-e. 12 Q. But you're also in the employ of other peo:'_e as 13 well; correct? 14 A. I have -- I have other activities as well, as 15 most people do. 16 Q. I understand that. And -- and what I'm -- 17 And that's part of why I'm asking about money, 18 because other peop_e have other activities bu:t other 19 people don't necessarily have other paid activit'_es, 20 and so I'm trying to get some feel for what chur.t of 21 your life you dedicate to The Council for Tobacco 22 Research, your working life, not your personal ?ife. 23 Approximately how many hours do you work per 24 week? 25 A. About 80 hours a week. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C' T Rt - I N 0 42 8. 6

(' C O N F I D E N T I A L 17 00:13:14 00:13:16 00:13:16 00:13:16 00:13:18 00:13:20 00:13:24 00:13:28 00:13:30 00:13:32 00:13:34 00:13:36 00:13:38 00:13:40 00:13:44 00:13:44 00:13:46 00:13:48 00:13:52 00:13:52 00:13:54 00:13:56 00:14:00 00:14:02 00:14:04 1 Q. Of those 80 hours per week, how many of those 2 hours do you devote to your work for The Council for 3 Tobacco Research? 4 A. I've never calculated that. 5 Q. what would be your best guess? 6 A. I don't have a best guess. I don't guess at 7 things. I either know or I don'~-- know. 8 Q. Well sir, do you think you wor:t more than 40 9 hours doing your job as -- 10 A. Well -- 11 Q. -- president -- 12 A. -- I've explained to you, Mr. C'Fallon, I'm at 13 the service of The Council for Tobacco Research for 14 whatever number of hours is required, either in 15 person, on the premises, by telephone, or by other 16 means of communication. 17 Q. I understand that, sir. I'm simply trying to 18 figure out what percentage of your working time you 19 spend performing those tasks, and do you have an 20 estimate for me? 21 A. No, sir. 22 Q. So you can't tell me whether you spend 50 23 percent of your working time every year working at 24 the -- for The Council for Tobacco Research. 25 A. I am 100 percent employed by The Council for STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 E~~~R ~~~ ~~~~~ ~

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:14:04 00:14:06 00:14:08 00:14:10 00:14:10 00:14:14 00:14:16 00:14:20 00:14:24 00:14:26 00:14:30 00:14:32 00:14:36 00:14:38 00:14:40 00:14:40 00:14:42 00:14:44 00:14:46 00:14:50 00:14:54 00:14:56 00:14:58 00:15:02 00:15:04 18 1 Tobacco Research. 2 Q. Okay. Well you -- 3 Are you also 100 percent em ployed by the 4 University of Kentucky School of Medicine? 5 A. Yes, sir. As required. 6 Q. Okay. So you're 100 percen t employed by at 7 least two employers. Is there a nybody else that 8 you're 100 percent employed by? 9 A. Mr. O'Fallon, I don't think you understood the 10 answer and I think your questiorn is naive. 11 Q. I'm sorry, sir. I guess I' m entitled to be a 12 certain amount of naive here. I 'm simply trying to 13 figure out what it is you do and how it is you do it. 14 A. Mr. O'Fallon, what you want to know is my gross 15 income, and I don't think that's any of your 16 business. 17 Q. Well sir, actually right no w I'm trying to get 18 around that gross-income problem . I'm trying to ask 19 you how many hours you work. 20 A. Well if we can bring this t o closure, let me 21 simply say that my salary from T he Council for 22 Tobacco Research constitutes les s than half of my 23 total income. 24 Q. well that helps me get one piece of information, 25 but there's still another piece of information I'm STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C l F I \ I I 1 I 0 4 fai 8(~ G

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:15:06 00:15:10 00:15:12 00:15:14 00:15:16 00:15:20 00:15:22 00:15:24 00:15:24 00:15:28 00:15:28 00:15:32 00:15:34 00:15:36 00:15:38 00:15:40 00:15:42 00:15:44 00:15:46 00:15:48 00:15:50 00:15:50 00:16:20 00:16:20 00:16:22 19 1 looking for, which is how much of your working life 2 you dedicate to doing your work at The Council for 3 Tobacco Research. Independent of your compensation. 4 I'm trying to figure out whether 50 percent of your 5 time every year is spent doing work for The Council 6 for Tobacco Research and the other 50 percent of your 7 time is doing work at the University of Kentucky, or 8 basically what that mix is. I'm just trying to get 9 some understanding, sir. 10 A. Well I'll accent your figures. That's perfectly 11 reasonable. 12 Q. Well whether it's reasonable or not, the 13 question is whether it's true. You're the only one 14 who knows that. Is -- is that -- 15 Would that be your rough approximation, that you 16 spend approximately 50 percent of your time -- 17 A. That would be -- 18 Q. -- working for The Council for Tobacco Research 19 and about 50 percent of your time working for the 20 University of Kentucky and -- and whatever other 21 pursuits you have? 22 A. I think that's fair. 23 Q. And less than 50 percent of income comes -- 24 strike that. 25 Less than 50 percent of your income per year STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 ~~~ CTR MN 042

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:16:26 00:16:26 00:16:26 00:16:48 00:16:52 00:16:54 00:16:58 00:17:00 00:17:02 00:17:06 00:17:10 00:17:10 00:17:14 00:17:16 00:17:18 00:17:24 00:17:26 00:17:26 00:17:30 00:17:32 00:17:32 00:17:34 00:17:36 00:17:38 00:17:40 20 1 comes from your work for The Council for Tobacco 2 Research; correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. What I'd like to do is briefly go through your 5 background, and I've got your resume and I just want 6 to ask you some questions about that. 7 As I understand it, you graduated from medical 8 school in 1952; correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. You did your first residency at Brigham Hospital 11 in Boston, and that residency ended in 1954? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. You did another residency in urology at Duke 14 University, and that residency ended in 1959? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. You then remained on at Duke as an instructor in 17 urology through '59; correct? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. At that point in time you moved to Yale, where 20 you became an assistant professor of urology; 21 correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you did that from 1959 to 1961; correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You were then an associate professor of urology STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 i.r -f R f f N 04,2?.Li 30

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:17:42 00:17:44 00:17:46 00:17:50 00:17:54 00:17:56 00:17:56 00:18:02 00:18:02 00:18:08 00:18:10 00:18:14 00:18:18 00:18:18 00:18:18 00:18:24 00:18:26 00:18:26 00:18:30 00:18:32 00:18:38 00:18:38 00:18:38 00:18:38 00:18:42 21 1 at the Bowman Gray School of Medicine in 2 Winston-Salem, North Carolina? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. During that time period, 1961 to 1963, when you 5 were at the Bowman Gray School of Medicine, did you 6 become associated with individuals from the R. J. 7 Reynolds Tobacco Company? 8 A. I met some of the R. J. Reynolds people. 9 Q. Who did you meet? 10 A. I can't remember exactly. But in a social 11 setting . 12 Q. At that point in ti me did you have any other 13 contact in a non-social setting with R. J. Reynolds 14 Tobacco? 15 A. No. 16 Q. You never did any consulting fo r R. J. Reynolds 17 during that period of time ? 18 A. No. 19 Q. From 1963 to 1980 you were a professor of 20 urology at Duke; correct? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. In 1980 you became a professor of surgery at 23 Emory; correct? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. And that's in Georgia; right? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Uf f'a' f f N 0446.

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:18:42 00:18:44 00:18:50 00:18:52 00:18:52 00:18:56 00:18:58 00:18:58 00:19:00 00:19:06 00:19:08 00:19:12 00:19:12 00:19:16 00:19:18 00:19:22 00:19:22 00:19:24 00:19:24 00:19:30 00:19:40 00:19:42 00:19:42 22 1 A. In Atlanta. 2 Q. And you held that position from 1980 to 1983; 3 correct? 4 A. Yes. I was Dean of the medical school. 5 Q. During that entire period? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You then moved to Mount Sinai School of Medicine 8 here in New York? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you were a professor of urology? 11 A. I was president of Mount Sinai Medical Center, 12 president of Mount Sinai Medical School, and 13 president of Mount Sinai Hospital, as well as being a 14 professor of surgery. 15 Q. And that position lasted from 1983 to 1987; 16 correct? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. In 1987 you left for the University of Kentucky 19 College of Medicine; correct? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Why did you leave? 22 A. I had a fundamental disagreement with the board 23 of trustees regarding a medical matter. 24 Q. Did you leave voluntarily, or were you asked to 25 leave? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CI sR H N 0 42 8327,

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 00:19:42 00:19:48 00:19:50 00:19:56 00:20:00 00:20:04 00:20:04 00:20:06 00:20:10 00:20:10 00:20:16 00:20:18 00:20:20 00:20:26 00:20:36 00:20:38 00:20:40 00:20:40 00:20:46 00:20:48 00:20:58 00:21:02 00:21:04 00:21:12 00:21:14 23 1 A. I left voluntarily. 2 Q. How did you happen to get the job at the 3 University of Kentucky? 4 A. If you've done your homework, Mr. O'Fallon, 5 you'll find that I was born in Lexington. And I 6 returned to Kentucky to live on my farm there. 7 Q. Had you -- 8 Had you accepted the job at the University of 9 Kentucky before making your decision to move back? 10 A. No. 11 Q. So that job came open and you knew about it 12 through your Kentucky connections? 13 A. It didn't come open. They offered me a 14 distinguished professorship. 15 Q. Were you offered the distinguished professorship 16 before or after you made a decision to accept a job 17 with the Council for Tobacco Research? 18 A. After. 19 Q. How did you happen to learn about the job with 20 the Council for Tobacco Research? 21 A. I was approached by Dr. Sheldon Sommers, who was 22 then the scientific director of The Council for 23 Tobacco Research, and subsequently by Mr. William 24 Hobbs, who was then the chairman of the board. 25 Q. And when were you first approached? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C" 7 2 R- N N 0 42 833"

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:21:22 00:21:28 00:21:30 00:21:30 00:21:40 00:21:42 00:21:42 00:21:50 00:21:52 00:21:56 00:22:04 00:22:04 00:22:14 00:22:20 00:22:26 00:22:28 00:22:30 00:22:32 00:22:34 00:22:34 00:22:38 00:22:40 00:22:40 00:22:46 00:22:46 24 1 A. In early 1987 I was asked to join the Scientific 2 Advisory Board. 3 Q. And did you agree to do that? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you do that with the blessing of Mount 6 Sinai? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. When was the first time you heard of The Council 9 for Tobacco Research or its predecessor, the Tobacco 10 Industry Research Committee -- Council? 11 A. Probably in the early 1970s. 12 Q. How did you happen to hear about it? 13 A. At that time I was directing the urology program 14 at Duke, and as chairman it was my responsibility to 15 obtain funding for research projects, and I became 16 aware of the support offered through The Council for 17 Tobacco Research, although I never obtained any such 18 support. 19 Q. Did you apply for such support? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did anybody in your department or in the medical 22 school apply for such support? 23 A. No. 24 Q. At any time during your tenure -- 25 A. Well wait. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C" TR ~°IN 0 4n 83 4

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:22:48 00:22:50 00:22:52 00:22:52 00:22:54 00:22:56 00:22:58 00:23:00 00:23:00 00:23:08 00:23:10 00:23:14 00:23:18 00:23:22 00:23:24 00:23:28 00:23:30 00:23:32 00:23:34 00:23:36 00:23:44 00:23:46 00:23:50 00:23:54 00:23:56 25 1 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. 2 A. Excuse me, Mr.O'Fallon, you said did anybody in 3 my department or in the medical school? 4 Q. Or in the medical school, yes. 5 A. Well I can't speak for the entire medical 6 school. I can speak for my department. 7 Q. And the answer -- 8 A. I -- I -- I would be -- 9 I would be fairly certain that there were other 10 investigators at Duke, which is a large operation, 11 there was someone somewhere who must have -- 12 certainly must have had CTR support. 13 Q. Is that how you first heard of CTR, that someone 14 at Duke actually did have money from CTR? 15 A. I can't tell you how I came to know about it. 16 It was 20 odd years ago. 17 Q. But to the best of your recollection, at that 18 time when you were at Duke, no one in your department 19 or you applied for funds from CTR? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. What was your next contact or knowledge about 22 CTR from that time? 23 A. Well I was aware of it during my tenure as dean 24 of Emory and also during the time I was at Mount 25 Sinai Medical Center. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Ci f"ti Hf -} 0402ILi 3~.+~

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:23:58 00:24:00 00:24:00 00:24:08 00:24:10 00:24:16 00:24:18 00:24:20 00:24:22 00:24:26 00:24:26 00:24:28 00:24:32 00:24:32 00:24:34 00:24:36 00:24:38 00:24:38 00:24:46 00:24:46 00:24:46 00:24:48 00:24:50 00:25:06 00:25:10 26 1 Q. Have you or anyone who has been associated with 2 you ever applied for the -- for funding from The 3 Council for Tobacco Research? 4 A. Oh, what do you mean by associated with me? 5 Q. Under your direction or in your department. 6 A. Well faculty members at Emory University School 7 of Medicine, and there were faculty members at Mount 8 Sinai Medical Center. 9 Q. How about anybody in your specific department? 10 A. Well I was of the entire medical center; that 11 was my department. 12 Q. Okay. You were also, though, in the department 13 of urology at Duke and the department of surgery at 14 Mount Sinai. 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Did anybody in those departments, while you were 17 there, apply for CTR funding? 18 A. Not to my knowledge. 19 Q. And you have never applied for CTR funding? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. And when I say "CTR funding," do you understand 22 that I'm including not only grant funding, but 23 contract research and also special projects? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Prior to 1987 when you were contacted by Dr. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 i.,r i R i i i S 042836

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:25:14 00:25:18 00:25:18 00:25:28 00:25:32 00:25:32 00:25:42 00:25:48 00:25:56 00:26:00 00:26:02 00:26:22 00:26:24 00:26:26 00:26:26 00:26:30 00:26:32 00:26:36 00:26:42 00:26:44 00:26:50 00:26:58 00:27:04 00:27:08 00:27:12 27 1 Sommers, had you ever had any direct contact with the 2 CTR or any of its employees? 3 A. No. 4 Q. What did Dr. Sommers or Mr. Hobbs tell you about 5 CTR when they approached you to join the Scientific 6 Advisory Board? 7 A. That's a pretty broad question. I think they 8 tried to explain the function of CTR, the mechanism 9 of grant awards. They were highly complimentary of 10 the Scientific Advisory Board. And indeed, it was 11 composed of a very distinguished group of medical 12 scientists. 13 Q. So in early 1987 you agreed to accept a position 14 with the Scientific Advisory Board; correct? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. At what point in time did you make your decision 17 to leave Mount Sinai Hospital? 18 A. June of 1987. 19 Q. What was the nature of the dispute you had with 20 Mount Sinai? 21 A. One of our cardiac surgeons performed a heart 22 transplant without approval of the Commissioner of 23 Health of the state of New York, and without knowing 24 that he needed approval of the Commissioner of 25 Health. There was a very unique law in the state of STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C"TR '[°~~•~ 04">837"

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:27:18 00:27:22 00:27:28 00:27:36 00:27:42 00:27:48 00:27:54 00:27:56 00:28:06 00:28:10 00:28:14 00:28:20 00:28:22 00:28:24 00:28:24 00:28:30 00:28:30 00:28:30 00:28:34 00:28:34 00:28:36 00:28:40 00:28:46 00:28:50 00:28:50 28 1 New York at that time that limited organ transplants 2 to certain institutions, and that -- that situation 3 has changed dramatically since that time. I defended 4 our cardiac surgeon. The patient did well. I felt 5 the issue was largely a medical matter. 6 Our trustees were laymen, with the exception of 7 two or three, and the lay trustees were intimidated 8 by the Commissioner of Health, who threatened them 9 with legal action and stated that it was their 10 personal responsibility, and I felt that that was not 11 the case. And we had a major disagreement about it, 12 and I felt that it was time to accept a generous 13 separation package. 14 Q. Was legal action instituted? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Was there any investigation done by the New York 17 board? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Were you included in that investigation? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Was any determination made? 22 A. People were exonerated on the basis that they 23 were unaware of this peculiar regulation. 24 Q. Have you ever been personally sued for medical 25 malpractice? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Cf i"ti i fN 042838

(, C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 00:28:52 00:29:10 00:29:12 00:29:16 00:29:18 00:29:22 00:29:28 00:29:30 00:29:40 00:29:48 00:29:50 00:29:52 00:29:58 00:30:00 00:30:02 00:30:04 00:30:22 00:30:24 00:30:28 00:30:28 00:30:28 00:30:32 00:30:40 00:30:50 00:30:56 29 1 A. No. 2 Q. At what time did you accept the job at Kentucky? 3 A. I think I began in August of 1987. 4 Q. When did you first inter-iiew for that post? 5 A. I didn't interview, Mr. O'Fallon. They came to 6 me and asked me if I would accept an appointment. 7 Q. When did they first approach you? 8 A. Probably July. 9 Q. Who was it that approached you? 10 A. Dr. William McRoberts, who was chief of urology, 11 and Dr. Byron Young, who was chairman of the 12 department of surgery. 13 Q. Did you know those gentlemen previously? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Were they long-time associates or friends? 16 A. Friends. 17 Q. Are you aware that the University of Kentucky 18 has been one of the institutions that's done a fair 19 amount of research on tobacco and for the tobacco 20 industry? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. How were you aware of that? 23 A. There is at the University of Kentucky an 24 Institute for Tobacco and Health which is funded by 25 state tobacco taxes. And I think the budget there is STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Lr TR i f f~ 0"f' 2~..~ ti.. .~}

C O N F I D E N T I A L 30 00:31:00 00:31:02 00:31:04 00:31:08 00:31:08 00:31:08 00:31:22 00:31:24 00:31:26 00:31:28 00:31:32 00:31:36 00:31:40 00:31:46 00:31:48 00:31:52 00:31:58 00:32:08 00:32:12 00:32:14 00:32:14 00:32:16 00:32:18 00:32:24 00:32:30 1 some eight million dollars a year, but I could be in 2 error about that. 3 Q. Do either of these gentlemen who approached you 4 have any connection with The Council for Tobacco 5 Research? 6 A. No. 7 Q. What are your duties -- strike that. 8 When you accepted the position with the 9 University of Kentucky, what was it your 10 understanding would be your duties and 11 responsibilities? 12 A. I was given an appointment as professor of 13 surgery in the division of urology, and I was asked 14 to participate in a modest amount of patient care in 15 the University Hospital and in the affiliated 16 Veteran's Administration Hospital, I was asked to 17 participate in the teaching program, and subsequently 18 I was asked to do a number of administrative cho--es. 19 Q. Do you still perform all of those tasks at the 20 University of Kentucky today? 21 A. No. 22 Q. What do you do today for the University -- at 23 the University of Kentucky? 24 A. My primary responsibility is patient care. 25 Q. You no longer teach? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C"TR MN 041C840

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:32:32 00:32:38 00:32:40 00:32:42 00:32:42 00:32:44 00:33:00 00:33:04 00:33:08 00:33:12 00:33:16 00:33:18 00:33:18 00:33:22 00:33:26 00:33:34 00:33:38 00:33:44 00:33:46 00:33:50 00:33:52 00:33:54 00:33:58 00:34:02 00:34:08 31 1 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. Do you still undertake administrative functions? 3 A. No. 4 Q. When did you last do the administrative 5 functions? 6 A. In March of this year. 7 Q. Approximately how many hours a week would you 8 say you work for the University of Kentucky? 9 A. Well we've been over this previously, and your 10 estimate was that I gave 50 percent of my time there, 11 50 percent here. I work about 80 hours a week. 12 Q. So about 40 hours? 13 A. Approximately. 14 Q. Of that 40 hours per week, approximately what 15 percentage of that time is devoted to patient care? 16 A. All of it, except a modest amount of committee 17 work. 18 Q. How much of that is devoted to teaching? 19 A. Oh, one or two hours a week. 20 Q. Is that teaching a resident-type teaching where 21 you have students in and take -- 22 A. I'm speaking of conferences, teaching 23 conferences. However, virtually all of the patient 24 care is a teaching opportunity. Residents 25 participate in patient care and in the surgery, and STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 ~. T R H N 0 4 2- -a 4. 1

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:34:14 00:34:18 00:34:20 00:34:20 00:34:20 00:34:36 00:34:36 00:34:36 00:34:44 00:34:44 00:34:44 00:35:10 00:35:14 00:35:18 00:35:18 00:35:18 00:35:20 00:35:22 00:35:30 00:35:38 00:35:44 00:35:58 00:36:08 00:36:12 00:36:22 32 1 all of those activities are teaching and learning 2 opportunities. 3 Q. Typically when you see patients, do you have 4 residents with you? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Do you currently live in Kentucky? Is that your 7 permanent residence? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And do you also have a residence here in New 10 York? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Let's just talk a little bit about your duties 13 with the CTR. It's my understanding in 1987 you 14 joined the CTR as a member of the Scientific Advisory 15 Board; correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What did you do at that time? What were your 18 duties? 19 A. Scientific Advisory Board reviews and evaluates 20 grant applications from independent investigators 21 attempting to determine the merit of the proposed 22 project and the technical aspects of the project, the 23 budget proposed, the hypothesis to be evaluated, and 24 then determine whether that grant application is 25 competitive with other grant applications. The STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 ~. T R H N 0 4 2- 8 4, C2

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:36:26 00:36:32 00:36:34 00:36:36 00:36:38 00:36:40 00:36:44 00:36:44 00:36:46 00:36:50 00:36:52 00:36:56 00:37:04 00:37:06 00:37:06 00:37:12 00:37:14 00:37:16 00:37:16 00:37:24 00:37:24 00:37:28 00:37:32 00:37:32 00:37:34 33 1 purpose of all that review is to determine the 2 allocation of funds, which are finite. 3 Q. According to your resume, it indicates that you 4 became the assistant scientific director in 1987. 5 A. I did. 6 Q. And is the assistant scientific director 7 automatically a part of the Scientific Advisory 8 Board? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Okay. When specifically did you become the 11 assistant scientific director? 12 A. In July or August of 1987. 13 Q. When you obtained that position, did you then 14 resign from the Scientific Advisory Board? 15 A. No. 16 Q. So you remained a member of the Scientific 17 Advisory Board once you became an employee of the 18 CTR? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. As scientific advisory director, what were your 21 duties? 22 MR. MERRITT: I'm sorry, I'm going to 23 object to that. "Scientific advisory director," is 24 that -- 25 MR. O'FALLON: Oh, I'm sorry, assistant STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1'-800-553-1953 Cf f"~e f~If~ ti.r+""~` ~ .~'"T' ,~.~

C O N F I D E N T I A L 34 0037:36 0037:38 0037:42 0037:46 0037:52 003800 003808 00:38:14 003820 003824 00:38:24 0038:28 0038:30 00:38:34 003842 003842 00:3844 00:3846 003856 003858 003902 003904 003906 003906 003908 1 scientific director. I'm sorry, you're right. 2 Q. As the assistant scientific director of the CTR, 3 what were your duties? 4 A. They were administrative. Preliminary contacts 5 with prospective investigators, encouraging granz~ 6 applications where a project seemed to have mer==, 7 the paperwork associated with grant administrat_cn, 8 and a variety of activities. Oversight of other 9 members of the scientific staff as well. 10 Q. Who did you report to as assistant scientific 11 director? 12 A. Dr. Charles Sommers, Dr. Sheldon Charles 13 Sommers, who was the scientific director. 14 Q. And who did Dr. Sommers report to? 15 A. To the chairman of the board of The Council for 16 Tobacco Research. 17 Q. Who was that at that time? 18 A. Mr. William Hobbs. 19 Q. Mr. William Hobbs wasn't a doctor; correct? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Was he an employee of a tobacco company? 22 A. Not at that time. 23 Q. He was a former employee; correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Do you know which tobacco company? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 f.r i R f ~~~ 040284'mf`

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:39:10 00:39:14 00:39:14 00:39:16 00:39:24 00:39:26 00:39:44 00:39:58 00:40:00 00:40:04 00:40:22 00:40:24 00:40:28 00:40:34 00:40:40 00:40:44 00:40:54 00:41:02 00:41:22 00:41:30 00:41:32 0 0 : 4 1 : 3 6 00:41:54 00:41:58 35 1 A. The R. J. Reynolds Company. 2 Q. And what had been his previous position with R. 3 J. Reynolds? 4 A. He was president. 5 Q. How many people did you have on your staff as 6 assistant scientific director? 7 A. Four. 8 Q. How many total employees did The Council for 9 Tobacco Research have in 1987? 10 A. _ believe there were 18 or 19. 11 Q. Do you know generally what z~hose employees did? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Could you tell me in summary terms? 14 A. Well there were six scientists on the scientific 15 staff, Dr. Sommers, myself and four others; there was 16 a president of The Council for Tobacco Research, who 17 was the administrative operating officer; Mr. Hobbs, 18 in his capacity as chairman; a secretary and 19 treasurer; a controller; a librarian; four clerks or 20 five; an assistant librarian. 21 MR. O'FALLON: Let's go off the record. 22 THE REPORTER: Off the record, please. 23 (Discussion off the record.) 24 BY MR. O'FALLON: 25 Q. I believe we were at a librarian, four clerks or STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CRl R ! IN 0/ iali 8J Vm+'

C 0 N F I D E;1 T I A L 36 00:42:00 00:42:00 00:42:02 00:42:08 00:42:10 00:42:12 00:42:14 00:42:16 00:42:18 00:42:20 00:42:20 00:42:20 00:42:24 00:42:34 00:42:36 00:42:38 00:42:42 00:42:52 00:42:58 00:42:58 00:43:08 00:43:14 00:43:16 00:43:18 00:43:22 1 five, an assistant librarian. F-nybody else that you 2 can recall? 3 A. And an office boy. 4 Q. How big is the library at CTR? 5 A. Oh. 6 MR. MERRITT: Excuse me. We're talking now 7 as opposed to '87? 8 MR. O'FALLON: Well 1Ft's talk in 1987. 9 MR. MERRITT: Okay. 10 A. Well it hasn't changed. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. It's the same -- 13 Q. How big is the library at C=R? 14 A. Roughly 20 by 30 feet. 15 Q. What kind of publications do you collect in the 16 library? 17 A. General medical and scientific publications. 18 (Discussion off the stenographic record.) 19 Q. Is your library available to the tobacco 20 industry? 21 A. we've never been called on for that purpose. It 22 would be available if they -- if they wished it. 23 The industry, as I -- is the sponsor of The 24 Council for Tobacco Research, and obviously if they 25 wanted some of it, they could certainly have it. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Cf R rt N 04"--84' 6

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:43:22 00:43:28 00:43:28 00:43:30 00:43c34 00:43:36 00:43:38 00:43:44 00:43:46 00:43:52 00:43:54 00:43:58 00:44:04 00:44:08 00:44:10 00:44:12 00:44:14 00:44:18 00:44:24 00:44:36 00:44:38 00:44:40 00:44:46 00:44:46 00:44:52 37 1 Q. And it's your testimony that no one from the 2 industry has ever called your librarian asking for 3 information? 4 A. I can't testify about calls to the librarian, 5 but certainly I have had no knowledge of any rea-.:ests 6 from the industry. 7 Q. Is that something you would normally know? 8 A. I don't know whether I would or not, but the 9 materials that are in our library are generally 10 available, are public documents, and the sponsor 11 companies would have access to them through normal 12 channels. They wouldn't have to ask us for it. 13 Q. Are you familiar with a-- an organization known 14 as LS, Inc.? 15 A. I'm sorry, I must -- I've misunderstood you. 16 Q. LS, Inc. 17 A. LS, Inc. 18 Q. Inc. Incorporated. 19 A. No, I don't know that term. I know Literat::re 20 Retrieval Service, which was at one time a tenar_:~ in 21 The Council for Tobacco Research, but I don't kr.;,w 22 the terminology "LS, Inc." 23 Q. When did it move? When did it leave The Co::ncil 24 for Tobacco Research? 25 A. LS, Inc. was never a part of The Council for STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C` T R ~ I N 0 42 8 4 , 'f"

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:44:52 00:44:56 00:45:00 00:45:12 00:45:16 00:45:20 00:45:24 00:45:26 00:45:26 00:45:46 00:45:46 00:45:52 00:45:54 00:45:54 00:46:00 00:46:02 00:46:04 00:46:10 00:46:12 00:46:12 00:46:16 00:46:20 00:46:24 00:46:26 00:46:28 38 1 Tobacco Research, to my knowledge. 2 Q. When did this Literature Retrieval Service, when 3 did it leave the premises of CTR? 4 A. Oh, many years ago. Before I -- before I came. 5 Q. Are you familiar with any corporation that 6 generally provides services to the tobacco industry 7 akin to analyzing research and collecting research on 8 smoking and health? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. How did you happen to become scientific director 11 in 1988? 12 A. Dr. Sommers wished to retire. 13 Q. And he recommended you? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Who did you report to when you became scientific 16 director in 1988? 17 A. Mr. Hobbs, the chairman of the board. 18 Q. And did you basically have the same staff under 19 you that we've now talked about? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Who was your assistant scientific director? 22 A. Dr. Harmon McAllister. 23 Q. Is Dr. McAllister still your assistant 24 scientific director? 25 A. No, he is the scientific director. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 t..r t R HN 042846

( \ C O N F I D E N T I A L 39 00:46:36 00:46:38 00:46:40 00:46:40 00:46:40 00:46:50 00:46:54 00:46:56 00:47:02 00:47:04 00:47:08 00:47:16 00:47:20 00:47:20 00:47:24 00:47:26 00:47:28 00:47:30 00:47:32 00:47:34 00:47:38 00:47:42 00:47:50 00:47:56 00:47:58 1 Q. Did he become the scientific director in 1991 2 when you came the chairman of the board -- 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. -- and CEO? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. As chairman of the board, who do you answer to? 7 A. We have a board of directors of The Council for 8 Tobacco Research consisting sf two representatives 9 from each of the now four sponscr companies. 10 Q. And who are the sponsor cor..panies? 11 A. The Philip Morris Company, R. J. Reynolds 12 Tobacco, Lorillard, and Brow-, & Williamson. 13 Q. When did American Tobacco ==_ave The Council for 14 Tobacco Research? 15 A. The American Tobacco Company did not leave The 16 Council for Tobacco Research, they were sold and 17 merged with Brown & Williamson. 18 Q. They were a member of The Council for Tobacco 19 Research during the entire pericd that they had a 20 separate corporate existence? 21 A. I can't answer that, that cces back into ancient 22 history, but I believe they were among the founders 23 and were members of the board throughout their 24 existence as an independent entity. 25 Q. When did Liggett & Myers leave CTR? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 vF I R I I N 04/im 81 ar'

C O N F I D E D1 T I A L 00:48:00 00:48:04 00:48:04 00:48:06 00:48:08 00:48:22 00:48:24 00:48:26 00:48:34 00:48:38 00:48:40 00:48:44 00:48:46 00:48:48 00:48:52 00:48:58 00:49:02 00:49:14 00:49:18 00:49:20 00:49:22 00:49:28 00:49:32 00:49:36 00:49:40 40 1 A. I -- I can't tell you. That was many years ago. 2 Q. Liggett & Myers has not been a member of The 3 Council for Tobacco Research since you joined in 4 1987? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. The Council for Tobacco Research has its entire 7 funding from the tobacco industry; correct? 8 A. Yes, essentially. 9 Q. And ultimately you answer to the tobacco 10 companies; correct? 11 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to object to the 12 form. 13 A. I -- I -- 14 I don't know what your definition of "answer to" 15 is. We -- we function as a fairly independent 16 agency. We receive our funding from the industry and 17 that is voluntary on their part. I solicit from them 18 each year a budget for our administrative overhead 19 and the research projects which we support. 20 Q. So the tobacco industry provides all the funding 21 for The Council for Tobacco Research; correct? 22 A. Correct, with the exception that we have from 23 time to time received small contributions from The 24 Tobacco Warehouse Association, The Burley Tobacco 25 Association and other similar entities, but those are STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 ~rR HN 04' 850

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:49:42 00:49:46 00:49:48 00:49:56 00:49:58 00:50:00 00:50:00 00:50:02 00:50:04 00:50:04 00:50:08 00:50:08 00:50:12 00:50:14 00:50:16 00:50:16 00:50:22 00:50:24 00:50:26 00:50:32 00:50:38 00:50:40 00:50:42 00:50:46 00:50:48 41 1 very minor amounts. 2 Q. The tobacco industry controls the board of 3 directors; correct? 4 A. The board of directors consists of executives of 5 the tobacco companies. 6 Q. So they control the board of directors; correct? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. There's no independent members on the boarc of 9 directors other than yourself? 10 A. No. 11 Q. You are on the board of directors; correct= 12 A. Yes. I'm the chairman. 13 Q. So eight of the nine seats on the board of 14 directors of The Council for Tobacco Research are 15 controlled by the tobacco industry; correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And ultimately you answer to the tobacco 18 industry for your actions and the actions of The 19 Council for Tobacco Research; correct? 20 A. Mr. O'Fallon, I think you're mixing up the 21 activities the board of directors and the Scientific 22 Advisory Board. The Scientific Advisory Board r..akes 23 the decisions regarding allocation of research funds 24 and they answer to no one except their own conscience 25 and God. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR HN 0428%,V. 1

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 00:50:50 00:50:52 00:50:56 00:50:58 00:51:00 00:51:02 00:51:06 00:51:10 00:51:12 00:51:14 00:51:22 00:51:26 00:51:28 00:51:32 00:51:36 00:51:38 00:51:42 00:51:52 00:51:56 00:52:00 00:52:04 00:52:10 00:52:14 00:52:26 00:52:28 42 1 Q. I move to strike as non-responsive. 2 I'd just like to repeat my question. My 3 question is that you are answerable to the tobacco 4 industry. 5 A. Well I'm employed by the industry, if you -- if 6 you put it in that context. 7 Q. And ultimately, as the president of CTR and as 8 the CEO of CTR, your actions in that capacity are 9 controlled by the tobacco industry. 10 MR. MERRITT: Object to the form. 11 A. I don't think so, Mr. O'Fallon. I feel very 12 independent in this position. I function as an 13 executive officer of The Council for Tobacco Research 14 just as I functioned as an executive officer of a 15 medical -- a medical center, the executive officer of 16 a medical school. And in each instance, of course, 17 we had a -- a board of oversight in one capacity or 18 another. So in the sense that my executive and 19 administrative duties are controlled by our board, I 20 suppose technically you'd say so, but as a practical 21 matter our board meets twice a year for approximately 22 an hour on each occasion, and in that period of time 23 our discussions relative -- are generally relative to 24 budget and other similar administrative matters. 25 Q. But the fact of the matter is that the board STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 tx i R Hi-j 4.A -'f' 28d,.; 2

( , C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 43 00:52:32 00:52:32 00:52:36 00:52:36 00:52:38 00:52:38 00:52:40 00:52:50 00:52:52 00:52:54 00:52:56 00:53:02 00:53:08 00:53:12 00:53:22 00:53:28 00:53:40 00:53:46 00:53:52 00:53:54 00:53:56 00:54:00 00:54:02 00:54:02 00:54:04 1 could terminate you at any time; correct? 2 A. They could. 3 Q. You serve at the pleasure of the board. 4 A. I'm certain I do. 5 Q. And the board is controlled by the tobacco 6 industry. 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. Have you had the opportunity since coming to The 9 Council for Tobacco Research to explore the history 10 of The Council for Tobacco Research? 11 A. To some extent, yes. 12 Q. What have you done to explore the history? 13 A. Well I have had the opportunity to have 14 conversations with various members of our staff, some 15 of whom have had long tenure, I've had an opportunity 16 to look at the annual reports through the years, I've 17 had an opportunity to see much correspondence, and I 18 think I have a reasonable overview of the history. 19 Q. Have you had the opportunity to review the 20 documents produced in this litigation? 21 A. Not all of them, I'm sure. 22 Q. Did you oversee the production of documents from 23 The Council for Tobacco Research? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Who did that? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 i.r i R f f f-f iv/ "°f' 28v..; 3

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:54:08 00:54:14 00:54:20 00:54:26 00:54:28 00:54:32 00:54:32 00:54:32 00:54:46 00:54:52 00:54:56 00:54:58 00:55:04 00:55:08 00:55:14 00:55:18 00:55:20 00:55:20 00:55:24 00:55:24 00:55:28 00:55:34 00:55:36 00:55:44 00:55:44 44 1 A. That was done under the supervision of our 2 counsel, and all records were made available. 3 (Discussion off the stenographic record.) 4 Q. Prior to joining The Council for Tobacco 5 Research, did you ever have the opportunities to 6 consult individually with the tobacco companies or 7 any of their attorneys? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Did you ever have the opportunities to consult 10 with any other scientific people? 11 A. Well I knew Dr. Sommers. 12 Q. When did you first meet him? 13 A. I can't remember exactly. Dr. Sommers is a -- 14 is a very distinguished pathologist and was chairman 15 of the pathology department at Lenox Hill Hospital, 16 held a professorship at Columbia University. I was 17 aware of Dr. Sommers for a number of years before I 18 actually met him. 19 Q. Did you meet him in 1984 when you came to New 20 York? 21 A. I think so, or sometime thereafter. 22 Q. But prior to 1984 you had not met him? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Doctor, have you done past research regarding 25 smoking? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CuT R N N 0 4 2" 8 54

( C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:55:46 00:55:48 00:55:56 00:55:58 00:55:58 00:56:08 00:56:14 00:56:20 00:56:22 00:56:24 00:56:28 00:56:30 00:56:36 00:56:36 00:56:38 00:56:40 00:56:40 00:56:46 00:56:54 00:57:00 00:57:06 00:57:06 00:57:10 00:57:12 00:57:16 45 1 A. I didn't hear the question. 2 Q. Have you done past research regarding smoking? 3 A. Not specifically with regard to smoking. 4 Q. Did you do research that involved smoking in any 5 way? 6 A. My laboratory at Duke at one time held a grant 7 from the American Medical Association for research on 8 the action of nicotine on smooth muscle of the 9 urinary tract. 10 Q. Were you involved in that research? 11 A. I was involved as far as administrative 12 oversight. I did not do the actual laboratory 13 investigation. That was done by technical personnel. 14 Q. Was your -- 15 Did your name appear on any publication 16 regarding that work? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What role did you play in the publication? 19 A. Publication was a -- a book on urinary tract 20 smooth muscle edited by one of my associates, and I 21 contributed one or two chapters to the book. 22 Q. The chapters you contributed, did it involve 23 this research on the smooth muscle and nicotine? 24 A. I can't -- 25 This was 25 years ago, and I can't remember STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 6.r i R t f i} 0"f' 285.~.;

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:57:20 00:57:24 00:57:26 00:57:32 00:57:34 00:57:36 00:57:38 00:57:38 00:57:42 00:57:44 00:57:46 00:57:46 00:57:58 00:58:00 00:58:02 00:58:06 00:58:12 00:58:14 00:58:14 00:58:14 00:58:18 00:58:20 00:58:22 00:58:26 00:58:28 46 1 exactly, Mr. O'Fallon. I remember the grant because 2 it was -- the funding was provided to us by the 3 American Medical Association, which was acting in 4 behalf of the tobacco industry to sponsor research on 5 the actions of nicotine. 6 Q. So that was money that came from the tobacco 7 industry? 8 A. Indirectly. 9 Q. How did you know it came from the tobacco 10 industry? 11 A. Because the American Medical Association made us 12 aware of that. 13 Q. Was that work published? 14 A. In the sense that the book that I mentioned was 15 published. 16 Q. And that's where I'm -- I'm a bit confused. Was 17 there another chapter in that book that involved this 18 nicotine work other than the chapters -- the chapters 19 you wrote? 20 A. Mr. O'Fallon, this is so far back in my memory 21 that I just can't recall the details. 22 Q. well if you could just do the best you can. 23 A. Well I've done the best I can. 24 Yes, the book dealt with the action of nicotine 25 on smooth muscle of the urinary tract. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 V' T1-S l lN L' 428~m' ia.P

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:58:30 00:58:32 00:58:36 00:58:36 00:58:38 00:58:40 00:58:40 00:58:44 00:58:46 00:58:46 00:58:48 00:58:50 00:58:52 00:58:56 00:58:58 00:59:00 00:59:04 00:59:06 00:59:08 00:59:12 00:59:14 00:59:16 00:59:18 00:59:20 47 1 Q. Okay. And that included -- 2 The two chapters you wrote dealt with that; 3 correct? 4 A. I think I participated in the preparation of two 5 of the chapters. 6 Q. Was it disclosed that some of this research was 7 funded by the tobacco industry? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And what was the -- 10 A. Actually, the grant was from the American 11 Medical Association. 12 Q. I understand, but it was my understanding that 13 the American Medical Associazion was simply passing 14 on money supplied by the tobacco industry. 15 A. That is not exactly correct. The American 16 Medical Association was functioning much as the 17 National Institutes of Health function in 18 administering public funds. 19 Q. So the AMA -- 20 A. There's nothing -- there's nothing nefarious 21 about it. It's a perfectly straightforward mechanism 22 of funding medical research. 23 Q. I'm not suggesting there's anything nefarious 24 about it at all, I'm simply trying to clarify what 25 happened. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR NN 042-8557"

C O N F I D E N T I A L 00:59:20 00:59:24 00:59:24 00:59:26 00:59:28 00:59:30 00:59:30 00:59:32 00:59:34 00:59:36 00:59:42 00:59:48 00:59:52 00:59:54 00:59:56 00:59:58 01:00:00 01:00:06 01:00:08 01:00:10 01:00:16 01:00:20 01:00:30 01:00:40 01:00:42 48 1 During that time period, did you ever have any 2 contact with the industry regarding that research? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did any of the researchers have any? 5 A. No. 6 Q. And as I understand it, you didn't do any of the 7 bench research; correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. Do you know what they found concerning the 10 effect of nicotine on the smooth muscle? 11 A. Nicotine has a very beneficial effect to smooth 12 muscle contraction, smootrh muscle of the intestinal 13 tract as well as the urinary tract. 14 Q. So nicotine has a physiological effect on the 15 bladder; correct? 16 A. Well it's not just the bladder, it's the smooth 17 muscle of the entire urinary tract, which includes 18 the renal pelvis, the ureter, the bladder, the 19 urethra. 20 Q. So it's safe to say that nicotine has a wide- 21 ranging physiological effect on the urinary tract. 22 A. Not wide-ranging. It has a -- it has a -- an 23 enhancing effect on the contraction of smooth muscle. 24 Q. Would it also be accurate to say that nicotine 25 has a physiological effect on the smooth muscle? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Cf R t i f-"f 0"°i' 2V58

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:00:48 01:00:54 01:00:56 01:01:06 01:01:08 01:01:10 01:01:14 01:01:20 01:01:22 01:01:24 01:01:26 01:01:26 01:01:28 01:01:30 01:01:32 01:01:34 01:01:36 01:01:40 01:01:42 01:01:44 01:01:48 01:02:08 01:02:12 01:02:18 01:02:18 49 1 A. I don't understand the question. I explained it 2 as simply as I can in lay terms. It has a 3 physiological effect, has a pharmacological effect, 4 it has an anatomic effect, it has a muscular effect. 5 Q. It has a wide-ranging effect on the urinary 6 tract system; correct? 7 A. No. It has an effect in promoting smooth-muscle 8 contraction. 9 Let's go back to basics. Do you know what 10 smooth muscle is? 11 Q. Sir, I'm asking the questions, -- 12 A. I know, but -- 13 Q. -- you know, -- 14 A. -- you still -- 15 Q. -- and I'll continue to do so. You don't have 16 to be condescending to me. I'm trying to do the best 17 I can to ask the questions the best I can. No, I'm 18 not a medical doctor. And so, yes, there are going 19 to be times when I'm going to use different language 20 than you, and certainly if you don't understand my 21 question, let me know and I'll do my best to restate 22 it. But you don't have to educate me, I don't think. 23 Did you do any other research that in any way 24 implicated smoking? 25 A. No, I don't think so. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R ~I N 0 4 22> 8 5, 0 9

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:02:24 01:02:24 01:02:26 01:02:26 01:02:30 01:02:40 01:02:46 01:02:46 01:02:56 01:02:56 01:02:56 01:02:58 01:03:00 01 :03 :00 01:03:02 01:03:12 01:03:22 01:03:28 01:03:36 01:03:46 01:03:58 01:04:00 01:04:00 01:04:02 01:04:16 50 1 Q. Are you yourself a smoker? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Have you ever been a smoker? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. When did you quit? 6 A. I think 1976. 7 Q. What did you do in preparatio for t day's 8 deposition? 9 A. I conferred with counsel. 10 Q. Anything else? N A o. . 11 12 Q. Have you reviewed any documen ts in preparation 13 for today's deposition? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What documents did you review ? 16 A. Oh, I can't remember all of t hem, b ut some 17 documents from our files that I ha d seen previously 18 but have kept available, some docu ments from the 19 now-public stolen files of Brown & Willi amson Tobacco 20 Company. I -- not recently, but i n the past -- have 21 reviewed our annual reports for ge neral familiarity. 22 Q. How did you happen to get the stole n documents m B&W? 23 f ro 24 A. You provided them. 25 Q. Are those documents that have also been produced STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 L+ i R i fN 042864.A

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:04:18 01:04:18 01:04:22 01:04:24 01:04:26 01:04:28 01:04:30 01:04:30 01:04:44 01:04:46 01:04:48 01:05:04 01:05:06 01:05:08 01:05:18 01:05:18 01:05:18 01:05:18 01:05:20 01:05:20 01:05:22 01:05:22 01:05:24 51 1 in our litigation? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You understand I didn't steal them ; right? 4 A. I don't think so. 5 Q. I just want to make it clear for t he record that 6 the documents we've produced are docume nts that have 7 been produced in Minnesota. 8 A. Correct. 9 MR. O'FALLON: Why don't we t ake a 10 five-minute break and come on back. 11 THE REPORTER: Off the record , please. 12 (Recess taken.) 13 BY MR. O'FALLON: 14 Q. Dr. Glenn, when we finished talkin g we were 15 talking a little bit about your prepara tion for the 16 deposition, and I understand that you h ave reviewed 17 the documents that I had designated for this 18 deposition; is that correct? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. You've also had meetings with your counsel; 21 correct? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Approximately how many meetings ha ve you had 24 with your counsel? 25 MR. MERRITT: Are you talking about in STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR 1 I ! l ~l 04286 1

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:05:24 01:05:26 01:05:30 01:05:36 01:05:38 01:05:40 01:05:40 01:05:44 01:05:44 01:05:50 01:05:50 01:05:52 01:05:58 01:06:00 01:06:00 01:06:06 01:06:08 01:06:08 01:06:18 01:06:20 01:06:26 01:06:28 01:06:28 01:06:38 01:06:42 52 1 preparation for this, or total? 2 MR. 0'FALLON: Yes, in preparation for 3 this. 4 A. I think four. 5 Q. Were there any non-lawyers at any of those 6 meetings? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Were there ever -- 9 A. With -- with the exception of myself. 10 Q. Yeah, but with -- no. I assume you don't want a 11 law degree. 12 A. No. 13 Q. Were there any law firms other than Debevoise & 14 Plimpton that were present? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Approximately what was the total time that you 17 met with your attorneys in preparation for today's 18 deposition? 19 A. Oh, these were four very brief meetings of less 20 than a half an hour each, including one this morning. 21 Q. Have you reviewed any depositions in preparation 22 for today's testimony? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Doctor, you understand that in addition to being 25 noticed individually, that you've also been STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R r'11 N 0 42 8 6 2-

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:06:46 01:06:48 01:06:50 01:06:50 01:06:52 01:06:54 01:06:58 01:07:00 01:07:02 01:07:02 01:07:06 01:07:06 01:07:08 01:07:10 01:07:12 01:07:12 01:07:14 01:07:18 01:07:20 01:07:20 01:07:22 01:07:24 01:07:24 01:07:28 53 1 identified as the individual to testify on behalf of 2 The Council for Tobacco Research on certain topic 3 areas;.correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You've been designated to testify concerning 6 public statements relating to health effects of 7 smoking and addiction in scientific research; 8 correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you're ready to so testify; correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You've been identified as the representative of 13 The Council for Tobacco Research to discuss the 14 health effects of smoking; correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And you're ready to so testify; correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You've been designated as the individual to 19 speak on behalf of The Council for Tobacco Research 20 in relation to addiction;.correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you're ready to so testify; correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And finally, you've been designated as the 25 individual to speak on behalf of The Council for STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 L.r f R i 1 N 042863

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:07:32 01:07:34 01:07:38 01:07:42 01:07:44 01:07:46 01:07:46 01:07:48 01:07:50 01:07:54 01:07:54 01:08:00 01:08:02 01:08:04 01:08:10 01:08:16 01:08:20 01:08:22 01:08:22 01:08:22 01:08:28 01:08:30 01:08:34 01:08:34 01:08:36 54 1 Tobacco Research concerning CTR research; correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Just so the jury's clear, I'd like to clarify 4 some terms so we have a frame of reference. 5 The Council for Tobacco Research is commonly 6 referred to as CTR; correct? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Prior to becoming The Council for Tobacco 9 Research, The Council for Tobacco Research was known 10 as the Tobacco Industry Research Committee; correct? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. Do you know the year that the -- that CTR became 13 The Council for Tobacco Research? 14 A. I believe it was 1964. 15 Q. And just so we're clear, there's going to be 16 times when I'm going to use the two acronyms, that's 17 CTR for Council for Tobacco Research and TIRC for 18 Tobacco Industry Research Committee. Is that okay 19 with you? 20 A. Fine. 21 Q. I use those because I don't -- every time I say 22 "Tobacco Industry Research Committee," I end up 23 using something different at the end of it. So TIRC 24 is an easier shorthand for me. 25 I'd like to talk for a second about public STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R 11H 0 4 2- E6 4'

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L I 01:08:40 01:08:44 01:08:48 01:08:50 01:08:52 01:08:54 01:08:56 01:08:58 01:09:00 01:09:04 01:09:06 01:09:06 01:09:10 01:09:12 01:09:12 01:09:16 01:09:18 01:09:20 01:09:22 01:09:24 01:09:24 01:09:26 01:09:30 01:09:30 55 1 statements relating to health. Dr. Glenn, would you 2 agree that as a medical doctor, when you make public 3 statements concerning health, you make sure you tell 4 the complete truth? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. That is, you don't make misleading statements; 7 correct? 8 A. Not intentionally. 9 Q. You don't withhold material information? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. And you try to make statements in a way in which 12 they will be understood by the public; correct? 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. You had to do that as a doctor when dealing with 15 patients; correct? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. You've also had to do that in your various posts 18 as head -- as the head of a medical school; correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. As you've testified, you've dealt with board 21 members who themselves were lay individuals; correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you've also had to do that when you've had 24 to make statements on behalf of The Council for 25 Tobacco Research; correct? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R tI N 0 4 22?8 6 =%1 .t

C O N F I D E N T I A L 56 01:09:30 01:09:38 01:09:40 01:09:42 01:09:50 01:09:52 01:09:56 01:10:00 01:10:04 01:10:04 01:10:06 01:10:08 01:10:10 01:10:12 01:10:14 01:10:16 01:10:18 01:10:18 01:10:24 01:10:26 01:10:28 01:10:30 01:10:34 01:10:36 01:10:36 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. Now when you make statements concerning health 3 as a medical doctor, you expect people to rely on 4 what you have to say; correct? 5 A. Well, you're implying t'r.at I can control the 6 mental process of the patient, and I can't do that. 7 All I can do is try to be as direct and -- and 8 truthful as I possibly can and hope that that 9 information will be programmed appropriately by the 10 patient. 11 Q. But ultimately when you make a statement 12 concerning health, you make _t with the intent that 13 whoever you're making it to will rely on your 14 judgment; correct? 15 A. I would hope they would. 16 Q. And you would find it reasonable if they did so 17 rely on your judgment; correct? 18 A. I would. 19 Q. And that especially applies to you as a medical 20 doctor because you have certain expertise; correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You've had years of training and you can 23 reasonably expect that the public can rely on you 24 when you make statements concerning health; correct? 25 A. I would hope so. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR F`11 I # 0 4 9228 6 6

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:10:44 01:10:44 01:10:48 01:10:50 01:10:56 01:10:56 01:11:02 01:11:04 01:11:06 01:11:08 01:11:10 01:11:10 01:11:14 01:11:16 01:11:20 01:11:24 01:11:26 01:11:32 01:11:36 01:11:44 01:11:48 01:11:52 01:11:56 01:12:06 01:12:08 57 1 Q. Similarly, you would expect that the public 2 would rely on the Council for Tobacco Research and 3 its predecessor, the TIRC, when the TIRC or the CTR 4 make public statements; correct? 5 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to -- I'm going to 6 object to the form of that. 7 MR. 0'FALLON: As compound? Is that what 8 your objection would be, compound? 9 MR. MERRITT: Well also ambiguity in -- 10 I mean I don't want to make a speaking objection 11 here, but -- 12 MR. O'FALLON: No, I know and appreciate 13 that and that's why I'm asking. Let me try to clean 14 it up. 15 Q. Similarly, you would expect the public to be 16 able to rely on the Council for Tobacco Research when 17 The Council for Tobacco Research makes public 18 statements about health; correct? 19 A. I think the answer to that has to be prefaced 20 with an understanding that in the beginning TIRC was 21 charged with a two-fold responsibility; one was to 22 sponsor research on smoking and health, and the 23 second was to serve as a public relations or public 24 information arm for the industry. I think today the 25 scientific community would not accept that dual STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C~JR 1-IN o4,,,"" ~~'~"

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:12:14 01:12:18 01:12:22 01:12:28 01:12:34 01:12:40 01:12:46 01:12:48 01:12:50 01:12:58 01:13:00 01:13:04 01:13:04 01:13:08 01:13:14 01:13:18 01:13:20 01:13:24 01:13:26 58 1 role. And it was a difficult time because science 2 and public relations really are almost incompatible, 3 and I think this is what prompted the decision to 4 separate the information aspect from the research 5 aspect. And The Tobacco Institute was inaugurated as 6 a public information arm for the industry and CTR was 7 left to pursue the scientific interests. 8 Q. I'm going to move to strike that as 9 non-responsive. 10 When TIRC was formed in 1954, it wasn't 11 disclosed to the public that one of the purposes of 12 the TIRC was to be the public relations branch of the 13 tobacco industry; correct? 14 A. I believe it was so -- so stated in the Frank 15 Statement, that TIRC would serve to provide 16 information to the public. 17 Q. But the information that TIRC was supposed to 18 provide to the public was supposed to be objective 19 information concerning the health effects of smoking; 20 correct? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. What the tobacco industry basically said is here 23 is a subjective organization that we've set up, and 24 we're going to provide you information concerning 25 health effects of smoking; correct? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 [..r f R f}N 0'"°f' '->8G7 8

01:13:44 01:13:46 01:13:50 01:13:54 01:13:58 01:13:58 01:14:00 01:14:04 01:14:08 01:14:10 01:14:12 01:14:14 01:14:18 01:14:26 01:14:32 01:14:38 01:14:42 01:14:48 01:14:50 01:14:52 01:14:56 01:14:56 01:14:58 01:15:00 01:15:02 C O N F I D E N T I A L 59 1 A. I don't believe it was stated in those terms, 2 but I think that the gist of it is correct. 3 Q. And basically the industry set up TIRC as this 4 independent, scientific-type board that the public 5 could rely on for accurate information about smoking 6 and health; correct? 7 A. I think that's correct. 8 Q. And so you would agree that, whether as TIRC or 9 later as CTR, that the public was entitled to rely 10 upon the statements made by that organization 11 concerning health; correct? 12 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to object to the 13 question. 14 A. I think that's overstating the case. TIRC was 15 formed to -- not to accomplish research itself, but 16 rather to fund biomedical research which would shed 17 further light on the issues of smoking and health and 18 to make that information available publicly. 19 Q. And one of the ways they made that information 20 available was through press releases and public 21 statements by their directors, who were traditionally 22 doctors; correct? 23 A. Or medical scientists. 24 Q. Right. 25 And you would agree that the public is entitled STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 (..x f R HN 0`"/'286..+~

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 01:15:06 01:15:10 01:15:12 01:15:14 01:15:18 01:15:20 01:15:20 01:15:24 01:15:28 01:15:32 01:15:34 01:15:36 01:15:38 01:15:42 01:15:46 01:15:48 01:15:52 01:15:54 01:15:58 01:16:06 01:16:08 01:16:16 01:16:24 01:16:28 60 1 to rely on those medical doctors or medical 2 scientists concerning statements about health; 3 correct? 4 A. I would agree. 5 Q. It would certainly be reasonable for the public 6 to rely and expect that TIRC or CTR, when they spoke, 7 spoke the truth; correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. And the same duties that would apply to you when 10 you make a statement would also apply to CTR; that 11 is, CTR also would have a duty not to make misleading 12 statements about health; correct? 13 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to object to that, 14 calling for a legal -- to the extent it's calling for 15 a legal conclusion. 16 A. I think the answer to that is what I have said 17 before, that TIRC in the beginning had this two-fold 18 function; one was to provide information, the other 19 was to fund research into the questions of smoking 20 and health. And the controversies that existed at 21 that time were widespread. There was a grave 22 difference of opinion in the medical and scientil"ic 23 community regarding the health effects of smoking. 24 In 1954 when TIRC was established, I would 25 venture that most physicians were smokers, and there STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR HN 0412?8"'0

( I C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:16:34 01:16:40 01:16:46 01:16:50 01:17:00 01:17:08 01:17:10 01:17:18 01:17:24 01:17:28 01:17:34 01:17:36 01:17:44 01:17:50 01:17:54 01:17:56 01:18:00 01:18:02 01:18:06 01:18:06 01:18:12 01:18:20 01:18:22 01:18:24 01:18:26 61 1 were serious questions based upcn some 2 epidemiological evidence that smoking was a health 3 risk factor. There were also those who felt that 4 there were other risk factors involved that were 5 equally significant such as smog, radon, coal dust, 6 hydrocarbons. You will remember that ;.he asbestos 7 issue had not even been raised a:t tnat time. So it's 8 difficult to translate yourself back over 40 years 9 and try to evaluate statements that were made about 10 smoking and health. There was only -- 11 It was 10 years, a full 10 years later that the 12 first Surgeon General report linked smoking with 13 health problems. So in the -- in the sense that TIRC 14 was charged with providing public information, it 15 clearly was entering into this area of -- of serious 16 controversy. 17 Q. Move to strike as non-responsive. 18 Sir, would you agree that CTR and its 19 predecessor TIRC had a duty not to make misleading 20 statements about health? 21 MR. MERRITT: Object to the question. 22 A. Had a duty not to make misleading statements, is 23 that your -- the question? 24 Q. Yes, that's the question. 25 A. I don't think anybody ever made any misleading STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R ~1~~ 0 ~~~871

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:18:28 01:18:32 01:18:36 01:18:38 01:18:42 01:18:42 01:18:44 01:18:46 01:18:48 01:18:52 01:18:56 01:19:02 01:19:04 01:19:04 01:19:08 01:19:12 01:19:16 01:19:20 01:19:22 01:19:22 01:19:24 01:19:26 01:19:28 01:19:30 62 1 statements, so in the sense -- 2 I don't know what they felt their duty was at 3 that time. Certainly I would not today offer 4 anything that I thought would be misleading about 5 issues of smoking and health or any other health 6 matters. 7 Q. And that same standard should have applied to 8 your predecessors; correct? 9 A. I think it did. 10 Q. And similarly, you would agree that the TIRC or 11 the CTR should not withhold material information from 12 the public concerning the health effects of smoking; 13 correct? 14 A. I know of no instance in which any information 15 was withheld. 16 Q. And if we showed you instances where information 17 was available at least to the founders of the TIRC, 18 the tobacco industry, which was not disclosed -- 19 disclosed concerning smoking and health, would you 20 agree that they had a duty also to disclose 21 information? 22 MR. MERRITT: Object to the form. 23 MR. O'FALLON: You're right, that's a bad 24 question. 25 Q. You understood that the tobacco industry formed STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 l.r f P'+ 1f N ti.d "°i' `8•f'-"e21

(` C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:19:30 01:19:32 01:19:34 01:19:40 01:19:42 01:19:44 01:19:48 01:19:50 01:19:56 01:19:58 01:20:00 01:20:02 01:20:08 01:20:10 01:20:14 01:20:16 01:20:16 01:20:18 01:20:20 01:20:22 01:20:24 01:20:24 01:20:28 01:20:30 01:20:30 63 1 TIRC; correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. You would agree that they also had a duty to 4 disclose the information that they had concerning the 5 health effects of cigarettes; correct? 6 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to object to the 7 question. 8 A. I can't put myself in a position of the 9 companies or -- or the thought process in 1954. 10 Q. At the very least, they had a duty not to make 11 misleading statements concerning health; correct? 12 MR. MERRITT: Object to the question. 13 A. I don't know what their -- their duty was. You 14 began this line of questioning asking me about my 15 professional standards. I don't -- I -- I can speak 16 for my standards, but I can't speak for those of 17 others. 18 Q. Do you think that the tobacco industry should be 19 held to a different standard than you yourself are 20 held to? 21 MR. MERRITT: Object. Object to the form 22 of the question. 23 A. I -- that's -- 24 You're asking me to make a judgment that I can't 25 make. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR MN 042287`3

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:20:36 01:20:40 01:20:40 01:20:42 01:20:44 01:20:48 01:20:50 01:20:52 01:20:52 01:20:54 01:20:58 01:20:58 01:21:00 01:21:06 01:21:12 01:21:16 01:21:20 01:21:32 01:21:38 01:21:40 01:21:46 01:21:54 01:22:02 01:22:06 64 1 Q. So you're not going to answer my question? 2 A. No, I'm not -- I simply -- 3 I simply am unable to answer it. 4 Q. Don't you think corporations should be held to 5 the same duties as individuals? 6 MR. MERRITT: Object to the form. 7 Can I just have a continuing objection to any 8 questions about duty? 9 MR. O'FALLON: Sure. 10 MR. MERRITT: Okay. 11 MR. O'FALLON: Would you like that 12 repeated? 13 THE WITNESS: Please. 14 MR. O'FALLON: Read it back. 15 (Record read by the court reporter.) 16 A. I can't speak for corporate standards. 17 Certainly the industry was as aware, as was the 18 public in general, that there were health risks in 19 smoking. But I think automobile manufacturers know 20 that there are risks to personal safety and health in 21 the products that they produce as well. This is 22 general public information, so I don't think that 23 saying "have a duty to express the potential harmful 24 effects of smoking" is appropriate terminology. 25 Q. Well let's take another example, and you brought STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 5F / l 1 / !N l..d+ 4.~;,_~ RS °°f

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 01:22:10 01:22:14 01:22:16 01:22:18 01:22:18 01:22:22 01:22:24 01:22:30 01:22:32 01:22:38 01:22:42 01:22:44 01:22:48 01:22:50 01:22:52 01:22:54 01:22:56 01:23:00 01:23:04 01:23:08 01:23:10 01:23:10 01:23:14 01:23:14 01:23:18 65 1 up the automobile industry. You understand that in 2 the 1970s Ford knew internally that its Pinto would 3 blow up on collision; correct? 4 A. I don't know that. 5 Q. You've read that? 6 A. I don't know that I read that Ford knew it. 7 Q. Assuming that Ford did know that its Pintos 8 would blow up upon a rear-end collision, you would 9 agree that Ford had a duty to tell its consumers of 10 that very serious risk of harm; correct? 11 A. I -- I can't make that judgment. I would assume 12 that they would have modified the product once they 13 identified the problem. 14 Q. But you would agree at the very least they had a 15 duty to tell the consuming public about that problem 16 once they knew of it; correct? 17 A. I would assume so. 18 Q. I mean, certainly if you were going to buy a 19 Ford Pinto or any car and there was a serious risk of 20 it blowing up upon rear-end collision, you would want 21 to know that prior to buying the product; correct? 22 A. Yes, I would. 23 Q. And the cigarette manufacturers should be held 24 to the same standard; correct? 25 MR. MERRITT: Object to the form of the STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C TR ~~~ 0 ~~~ ~ t5-

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:23:18 01:23:22 01:23:26 01:23:28 01:23:32 01:23:36 01:23:38 01:23:38 01:23:44 01:23:52 01:23:56 01:24:00 01:24:04 01:24:06 01:24:06 01:24:12 01:24:14 01:24:18 01:24:22 01:24:28 01:24:32 01:24:42 01:24:44 01:24:48 01:24:54 66 1 question. 2 A. Well I've -- I've answered that question 3 previously, and I can only repeat what I've said 4 before. I think it was general public knowledge that 5 there were health risks in smoking and I think people 6 have known this for a hundred years. The term 7 "coffin nail" was first used before the turn of the 8 century. 9 Q. Move to strike as non-responsive. 10 You would agree that if CTR or TIRC believed 11 smoking caused disease, they would tell the public, 12 regardless of what the tobacco companies might have 13 said; correct? 14 A. You are asking me what I believe? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. I believe that CTR at all times has been 17 forthright in publishing the results of the 18 investigation that it sponsored. Each investigator 19 is encouraged to publish, and whether the findings 20 are adverse to the interests of the tobacco company 21 is -- is immaterial. 22 Q. You would agree that a company cannot sell a 23 legal product illegally; correct? 24 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to object to that 25 as calling for a legal conclusion. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 .~. ~~R ~~N 04~~'76

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:24:58 01:25:04 01:25:08 01:25:08 01:25:10 01:25:20 01:25:24 01:25:28 01:25:32 01:25:34 01:25:36 01:25:42 01:25:44 01:25:48 01:25:50 01:25:52 01:25:56 01:26:00 01:26:04 01:26:08 01:26:12 01:26:16 01:26:18 01:26:24 67 1 A. I wouldn't agree with that. I don't think 2 anyone should sell an illegal product. 3 Q. But you shouldn't also sell a legal product in 4 an illegal fashion; correct? 5 MR. MERRITT: Same objection. 6 A. If it is a legal product, it cannot be sold 7 illegally. A legal product would be sold legally. 8 And I'm not a lawyer, but I -- I think the two 9 assumptions there are incompatible. 10 Q. Well you would agree that it would be wrong to 11 sell a legal product by making misleading statements 12 about that product; correct? 13 A. I would -- 14 I would agree that that's probably correct, if 15 one knew the statement to be misleading. 16 Q. You would agree that it would be wrong to sell a 17 legal product by making statements that would tend to 18 diminish health risks associated with that product; 19 correct? 20 A. Well you're getting out of my area of expertise, 21 Mr. O'Fallon. I don't -- I don't know the ethical 22 answers to your questions. If you will ask me 23 medical questions, I'll do my best. 24 Q. Well, let me just ask you these questions as a 25 consumer. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 G TR HN 04'2-'87-`7-"

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:26:26 01:26:30 01:26:32 01:26:36 01:26:36 01:26:40 01:26:46 01:26:50 01:26:52 01:27:00 01:27:02 01:27:04 01:27:06 01:27:14 01:27:16 01:27:20 01:27:22 01:27:24 01:27:28 01:27:28 01:27:32 01:27:38 01:27:42 01:27:48 01:27:52 68 1 You would agree that a manufacturer shouldn't 2 sell a perfectly legal product by making misleading 3 statements about the health risks associated with 4 that product; correct? 5 A. You -- 6 There are two assumptions there; one is that the 7 manufacturer is making misleading statements, and 8 selling a legal product. Yes, they were -- the 9 tobacco companies were selling a legal product, and 10 still are. No, I know of no intentionally misleading 11 statements. 12 I think everybody was well aware of the risks of 13 smoking from the time of the first Surgeon General's 14 report, and even earlier. 15 Q. You would agree that if the tobacco industry 16 made statements such as stating that its product was 17 not injurious to health when in fact there was 18 evidence in its own files that indicated that the 19 product was in fact injurious to health, that that 20 would be a misleading statement; correct? 21 A. If they -- 22 If they said it was not injurious to health once 23 they knew that it was. But you must remember the 24 spectrum of time here. In 1954 the issues were not 25 settled. This was a -- it was not known at -- in STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR NN 0421- 8",Xe

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 01:28:00 01:28:04 01:28:10 01:28:14 01:28:16 01:28:18 01:28:22 01:28:26 01:28:28 01:28:30 01:28:34 01:28:36 01:28:40 01:28:46 01:28:54 01:28:56 01:29:00 01:29:06 01:29:08 01:29:14 01:29:20 01:29:22 01:29:28 69 1 1954 exactly what the risks of smoking were. So to 2 ascribe a misleading statement in that timeframe 3 is -- is -- is not ossible p . 4 Q. Originally The Council for Tobacco Research -- 5 Research, which was first known as the Tobacco 6 Industry Research Committee, was formed in 1954 7 because there were public renorts that cigarette 8 smoking may cause cancer; correct? 9 A. There were the beginning of implications that 10 smoking was associated with a variety of health 11 problems . 12 Q. And one of the most serious was an indication 13 that cigarette smoking may in fact cause cancer; 14 correct? 15 A. Well I don't believe the word "cause" was 16 employed in the scientific sense. The tubercle 17 bacillus causes tuberculosis. The relationship 18 between smoking and health has not been that 19 clearcut, and it certainly wasn't in 1954. 20 Q. I'm going to move to strike a s non-responsive. 21 One of the most serious charg es brought against 22 cigarettes in 1954 was that smokin g may cause cancer; 23 correct? 24 A. You use cause in the lay sens e or in the 25 scientific sense? Define the -- the term and I'll -- STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 5541 8 1-800-553-1953 C T R Il N 0 4. 2 ~ ~~ ~ ~

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:29:30 01:29:32 01:29:36 01:29:38 01:29:44 01:29:46 01:29:48 01:29:52 01:29:58 01:30:00 01:30:02 01:30:04 01:30:06 01:30:12 01:30:22 01:30:24 01:30:32 01:30:36 01:30:42 01:30:52 01:30:52 01:30:58 01:31:02 01:31:06 01:31:08 70 1 I'll try to answer. 2 Q. What level of certainty do you need in order to 3 use cause in the scientific sense, sir? 4 A. Nobody has ever caused cancer in experimental 5 animals by exposure to smoke or tobacco. 6 Q. I'm going to move to strike as non-responsive. 7 What level of certainty do you need in order to 8 use cause in the scier.tific sense? Does it have to 9 be 95 percent certain that the entity caused disease? 10 A. I think you would have to exceed that. I think 11 there ought to be clear cause and effect. 12 Q. So basically you're wanting a level of proof 13 somewhere between 95 percent and a hundred percent, 14 correct, before you would use the word "cause?" 15 A. I will accept the use of the term "cause" for a 16 variety of diseases associated with the risks of 17 smoking if we define it in the lay sense. It is now 18 said smoking causes cancer, the Surgeon General has 19 applied that warning to cigarette advertising and 20 packaging, and I accept that in the sense that we 21 know perfectly well that the incidence of lung cancer 22 is higher among smokers than it is among non-smokers, 23 but that doesn't mean that it is an absolute cause. 24 There may be other factors involved as well. And 25 we've known this for a long time. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Ci R f f f 3 ti.d '°f' :2880

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:31:08 01:31:12 01:31:14 01:31:18 01:31:28 01:31:30 01:31:34 01:31:38 01:31:40 01:31:44 01:31:44 01:31:48 01:31:52 01:31:54 01:32:02 01:32:06 01:32:10 01:32:14 01:32:20 01:32:22 01:32:32 01:32:34 01:32:40 01:32:42 01:32:46 71 1 Q. When you -- 2 When you use "cause," when you use the word 3 "cause" in what you call a scientific sense, are you 4 demanding an absolute level of proof; that is, as 5 close to 100 percent certainty as possible? 6 A. As close as possible, yes. 7 Q. And what's the minimal level it has to meet in 8 order for you to use the word "cause?" If it's only 9 95 percent certain that smoking causes cancer, will 10 you use cause in the medical sense to say that 11 smoking causes cancer? 12 A. Well I use the term "cause" in two ways, and 13 that's what I'm trying to get at; one is the pure 14 scientific sense where we know that a given agent 15 will result in a -- a -- a given disease process, and 16 the other a causal relationship where the incidence 17 of a disease is much higher when that risk factor is 18 added. And if that's -- is that -- 19 If that's what you're saying with the term 20 "cause," then I will accept it. 21 Q. Doctor, do you believe it's more likely than not 22 that cigarette smoking causes lung cancer? 23 A. Again I come back to the definition of cause. 24 I'm not sure that cigarette smoking per se causes 25 lung cancer. Ninety-three percent of smokers never STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 t.r f R HN 042881

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:32:56 01:33:00 01:33:04 01:33:04 01:33:08 01:33:10 01:33:16 01:33:22 01:33:22 01:33:30 01:33:32 01:33:36 01:33:38 01:33:42 01:33:48 01:33:48 01:33:50 01:33:52 01:33:56 01:34:00 01:34:04 01:34:06 01:34:10 01:34:16 01 :34 :18 72 1 get a significant lung problem. On that basis, one 2 has to question whether genetics is involved, as it 3 now is in so many diseases. 4 Q. So it's -- 5 A. So there may be a genetic predisposition with 6 the patient. There may be other factors such as 7 hydrocarbon, smoke, coal dust, radon, other -- other 8 exposure factors that are compounding the problem 9 associated with smoking. 10 Q. Doctor, is there one person who you believe has 11 incurred lung cancer as a result of smoking? 12 A. "As a result" in the term of -- of risk factor, 13 yes. 14 Q. Do you believe it's more likely than not that 15 one person has had lung cancer caused by cigarette 16 smoking? 17 A. Define cause for me. 18 Q. Can you answer my question? 19 A. No, sir, not until you define the term "cause." 20 And that's what the discussion has been about for the 21 last 10 minutes. 22 I'm happy to accept the terminology "cause" if 23 we use it in the lay sense, because smokers are more 24 at risk for lung diseases, cardiovascular diseases 25 than are non-smokers, and this is general public STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T / ! l I I ~I 0 4 Gm 8 82

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:34:22 01:34:24 01:34:26 01:34:32 01:34:34 01:34:38 01:35:18 01:35:20 01:35:28 01:35:30 01:35:32 01:35:36 01:35:44 01:35:46 01:35:48 01:35:52 01:35:54 01:35:56 01:36:00 01:36:02 01:36:04 01:36:16 01:36:18 01:36:22 73 1 knowledge. And the industry accepts it. Certainly 2 Council for Research -- for Tobacco Research accepts 3 it. Certainly I accept it personally. 4 Q. You have testified that cigarette smoking does 5 not cause lung cancer; correct, sir? 6 A. I have not. I have testified that the term 7 "cause" has to be defined. 8 Q. You testified bef'ore the United States 9 Congress. When asked, "Do you believe that smoking 10 causes cancer?" your answer was, "No, sir." Is that 11 correct? 12 A. That's correct, because we had defined the term 13 "cause." And I explained to them in exactly the 14 same terms I've used here this morning, that cause 15 and effect in the scientific sense have to be 16 defined. 17 Q. When a lay person reads your statement that 18 cigarette smoking does not cause cancer, you would 19 agree that it's reasonable for that lay person to 20 conclude that in fact cigarette smoking does not 21 cause cancer; correct? 22 MR. MERRITT: Object to the question. 23 A. No, because you're taking that out of context. 24 Q. But you understand that when you say things like 25 "cigarette smoking does not cause cancer," that it's STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 k J Corl I l l / 1 l 0 4228 8 3

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:36:26 0 1 : 3 6 : 2 8 01:36:30 01:36:36 01:36:44 01:36:46 01:36:48 01:36:52 01:36:54 01:36:58 01:37:04 01:37:06 01:37:08 01:37:12 01:37:14 01:37:14 01:37:18 01:37:22 01:37:24 01:37:24 01:37:28 01:37:28 01:37:30 01:37:36 74 1 likely that the lay public is going to interpret it 2 in the sense that, well, it doesn't cause cancer; 3 right? 4 MR. MERRITT: Object to the question. 5 A. I can't answer for what other people would think 6 or interpret, but a reasonable person would certainly 7 want to know the context in which that answer was 8 given. 9 Q. Let's go back for a second to the history of The 10 Council for Tobacco Research and its predecessor, the 11 Tobacco Industry Research Committee. 12 The TIRC was formed in 1954 in large part to 13 reassure the public that the cigarette industry was 14 looking at the health effects of smoking; correct? 15 A. I don't know. I don't know the motivating 16 factors. I know what the -- the public statements 17 were. 18 Q. In fact, what they wanted to do was make the 19 public continue to feel good about smoking in the 20 cigarette industry; correct? 21 A. I don't know that. 22 Q. And ultimately what they wanted was for smokers 23 to keep smoking; correct? 24 A. I don't know that. 25 Q. And the TIRC was, from the beginning, part of STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Uf f`S l f N 042-88-'f

( I C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:37:36 01:37:38 01:37:42 01:37:46 01:37:50 01:37:52 01:37:54 0 1 : 3 7 : 5 6 01:37:58 01:38:04 01:38:06 01:38:08 01:38:10 01:38:12 01:38:16 01:38:18 01:38:20 01:38:24 01:38:42 01:38:44 01:38:46 01:38:48 01:38:56 75 1 the cigarette industry's public relations approach to 2 the whole issue of smoking and health; correct? 3 A. It was so stated in the very beginning that TIRC 4 would accomplish two functions; one was to support 5 medical research, and the other was to make the 6 information public. 7 Q. But it didn't say that its purpose was to defend 8 the industry; correct? 9 A. No, it did not. 10 Q. Or to put all statements about health in the 11 best light for the industry. That wasn't stated; was 12 it? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. We referred now a couple of times to the Frank 15 Statement, and the Frank Statement is an 16 advertisement that was taken out by the industry in 17 1954; correct? 18 A. As I understand. 19 MR. O'FALLON: Mark this as the next 20 exhibit. 21 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1148 was marked 22 for identification.) 23 BY MR. O'FALLON: 24 Q. Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1148 is a document Bates 25 stamp numbered CTR MN 11309817. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 ~ T R r I N 0 42 8 8 Ski

C O N F I D E N T I A L 76 01:38:58 01:38:58 01:39:00 01:39:02 01:39:04 01:39:06 01:39:08 01:39:10 01:39:12 01:39:16 01:39:22 01:39:24 01:39:26 01:39:34 01:39:34 01:39:44 01:39:46 01:39:50 01:39:52 01:39:56 01:39:58 01:40:02 01:40:06 1 Doctor, are you familiar with Plaintiffs' 2 Exhibit 1148? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And this in fact is the Frank Statement to 5 cigarette smokers that 6 correct? 7 A. Yes. we've been talking about; 8 Q. This is a document that was taken out and 9 sponsored by the tobacco industry; correct? 10 A. As I understand it. 11 Q. Now in this statement the tobacco industry takes 12 on certain duties relating to the public; correct? 13 MR. MERRITT: I object to the form of the 14 question -- object to the question. 15 You may answer. 16 MR. O'FALLON: Why don't we have that read 17 back. 18 (Record read by the court reporter.) 19 A. I think they make a statement that they will 20 undertake to do certain things. I don't know whether 21 "duty" is the correct word or not. 22 Q. Well one of the most important things they do is 23 in the first column toward the bottom where they say, 24 quote, "We accept an interest in people's health as a 25 basic responsibility, paramount to every other STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 G T~` nN 04' 886

C O N F I D E N T I A L 77 01:40:08 01:40:10 01:40:12 01:40:16 01:40:18 01:40:20 01:40:22 01:40:24 01:40:28 01:40:30 01:40:34 01:40:36 01:40:42 01:40:46 01:40:50 01:40:54 01:40:58 01:41:00 01:41:00 01:41:02 01:41:08 01:41:12 01:41:16 01:41:18 1 consideration of our business." Correct? 2 A. That is what is said. 3 Q. What they are telling the people is that we 4 accept your health as our basic responsibility, a 5 responsibility that should be paramount to us selling 6 our cigarettes; correct? 7 A. That's what they have said. 8 Q. They also state point blank that they believe 9 the products they make are not injurious to health; 10 correct? 11 A. I think in 1954 they probably believed that. 12 Q. And if we find evidence that showed that i^ 1954 13 they did not believe it, then that would be a 14 misleading statement; correct? 15 A. I -- I -- I can't put myself in -- inside ::he 16 heads of the people who wrote the statement in 1954, 17 but I think it was -- is fair to say that in 19-54 18 most people did not believe that tobacco produc:~s 19 were injurious to health. 20 Q. And -- 21 A. Most doctors were smokers at that time. I was. 22 I think the evidence was not in at that point. 23 Q. In fact in 1954 and before that, the cigarette 24 industry would even make claims about whether their 25 cigarettes were healthier than other cigarettes; STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Vf' l! 1 I l I 1 04Emr ti..F isA' af7

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:41:20 01:41:26 01:41:30 01:41:34 01:41:36 01:41:40 01:41:44 01:41:44 01:41:50 01:41:52 01:41:54 01:41:56 01:41:56 01:42:00 01:42:02 01:42:02 01:42:04 01:42:08 01:42:12 01:42:14 01:42:14 01:42:16 01:42:18 01:42:22 01:42:22 78 1 correct? Do you recall that? 2 A. I don't recall that. 3 Q. As part of this pledge to the public, this 4 accepting of a -- of an interest in the public's 5 health, the tobacco industry makes certain pledges, 6 and included in those pledges is the establishment of 7 the Tobacco Industry Research Committee; correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. They say in the second column, number one, "We 10 are pledging aid and assistance to the research 11 effort into all phases of tobacco use and healt:-." 12 Right? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. "This joint financial aid will of course be in 15 addition to what is already being contributed by 16 individual companies." Correct? 17 A. That is the statement. 18 Q. They state in number two, "For this purpose we 19 are establishing a joint industry group consisting 20 initially of the undersigned." Right? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. And the undersigned are basically the tobacco 23 industry -- the tobacco -- the cigarette 24 manufacturers and some other tobacco industry 25 companies; correct? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R rH N 0 4~-8 8 8

(` C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:42:24 01:42:28 01:42:30 01:42:30 01:42:34 01:42:34 01:42:48 01:42:50 01:42:54 01:42:58 01:42:58 01:42:58 01:43:02 01:43:06 01:43:08 01:43:10 01:43:12 01:43:12 01:43:16 01:43:16 01:43:20 01:43:22 01:43:24 01:43:24 79 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. They then state, "This groGO will be known as 3 TOBACCO INDUSTRY RESEARCH COMI`4ITTEE; " right? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. In number three they put forth the charge of the 6 committee; right? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. It states, quote, "In charce of the research 9 activities of the Committee will be a scientist of 10 unimpeachable integrity and nat_onal repute." 11 Correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Presumably they are saying to the public, "Here 14 will be a scientist you, the public, can rely on;" 15 correct? 16 A. 7 -- I think that's a reasonable interpretation, 17 but that's not what it says. 18 Q. But that's a reasonable interpretation. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. That's a reasonable implication to draw. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. It says, "In addition there will be an Advisory 23 Board of scientists disinterested in the cigarette 24 industry;" correct? 25 A. Correct. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R F` I N 0 4 2- 8 8 .9.

C 0 N F I D E N 7 I A L 01:43:26 01:43:28 01:43:32 01:43:32 01:43:36 01:43:42 01:43:42 01:43:42 01:43:44 01:43:46 01:43:46 01:43:50 01:43:52 01:43:56 01:44:00 01:44:04 01:44:06 01:44:08 01:44:12 01:44:16 01:44:18 01:44:22 01:44:24 01:44:26 01:44:26 80 1 Q. So they're suggesting that there's basically 2 going to be this independent grcup, this independent 3 committee that's going to conduct research; right? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. It says, "A group of distir.guished men from 6 medicine, science, and educatiorn will be invited to 7 serve on this Board;" right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. "These scientists will adv=se the Committee on 10 its research activities." Correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Nowhere does it say that this body, the Tobacco 13 Industry Research Committee, is going to be serving 14 as the public relations arm of the tobacco industry 15 in reassuring the public concerning health; does it? 16 A. I misunderstand your question. 17 Q. Nowhere here does it say that one of the 18 purposes of the Tobacco Industry Research Committee 19 is to serve as a voice of the industry in countering 20 all this negative publicity; correct? 21 A. It doesn't say that, no. 22 Q. In fact, the implication is is that it won't be 23 that, that in fact it's going to be independent and 24 not subject or a voice for tobacco; correct? 25 A. That's correct. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 L.x -rf'ti. HN 0428~r} 0

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:4430 01:4436 01:4438 01:4442 01:4444 014446 014446 014448 014452 014456 01:45:00 01:45:02 01:45:08 01:45:14 01:45:22 014526 01s530 01a534 01:4 5:38 01:45:44 014546 014552 01:45:54 014556 014 558 81 1 Q. But in fact it is a voice for tobacco; isn't it? 2 A. It was the tobacco industry's response to a 3 situation nearly a half a century ago. 4 Q. It was a public relations effort designed to 5 quell the concerns about smoking -- 6 A. No, sir, not that the -- 7 Q. -- because the tobacco industry was concerned 8 about its own sales; wasn't it? 9 A. I disagree violently with that. Everything that 10 I've reviewed relative to the initiation of TIRC and 11 subsequently CTR indicates that a diligent effort was 12 made to see that the Scientific Advisory Board was 13 constituted of people independent from the industry, 14 scientists of the highest quality and caliber free to 15 pursue the best -- the research they felt best to 16 elucidate the problems of smoking and health. And in 17 fact many, many hundreds of publications that have 18 resulted from work by independent investigators have 19 been adverse to the interests of the companies, but 20 in no way has this been compromised by the industry. 21 Q. One of the first things that the industry set 22 out to do was to hire a huge public relations firm 23 known as Hill & Knowlton; correct? 24 A. I believe so. But that's historical 25 information, I have no first-hand knowledge of -- of STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 V'sTFR I /N 0 428 RE 1

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:45:58 01:46:02 01:46:02 01:46:04 01:46:06 01:46:08 01:46:10 01:46:12 01:46:14 01:46:16 01:46:18 01:46:20 01:46:24 01:46:28 01:46:32 01:46:42 01:46:44 01:46:44 01:46:48 01:46:50 01:46:54 01:46:54 01:46:58 01:47:00 01:47:04 82 1 that. 2 Q. But you have certainly seen Hill & Knowlton 3 documents; haven't you, sir? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And those Hill & Knowlton documents would 6 indicate that the primary concern of the tobacco 7 industry was to make sure that they addressed this 8 public relations problem so that people wouldn't stop 9 smoking. 10 A. I don't -- 11 You're asking me for a judgment about what their 12 thought process was, and I'm unable to make that 13 judgment. 14 Q. I'm going to show you a document that's been 15 previously marked in this litigation as Plaintiffs' 16 Exhibit 397. Have you previously seen Plaintiffs' 17 Exhibit 397? 18 A. I don't believe so. 19 Q. This is a document dated December 15th, 1953 20 entitled "BACKGROUND MATERIAL ON THE CIGARETTE 21 INDUSTRY CLIENT." Do you see that at the top? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. This has been produced out of a collection of 24 documents I believe at the University of Wisconsin 25 from Hill & Knowlton's files. And you have not seen STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R M N 0 4 2`8 9- 2

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 01:47:06 01:47:08 01:47:10 01:47:14 01:47:16 01:47:20 01:47:22 01:47:26 01:47:28 01:47:32 01:47:34 01:47:38 01:47:42 01:47:44 01:47:44 01:47:46 01:47:48 01:47:48 01:47:50 01:47:54 01:47:56 01:47:58 01:48:00 01:48:00 83 1 those documents previously? 2 A. I don't believe I've seen this. 3 Q. You have seen some of those documents when they 4 were shown to you at the congressional hearings; 5 correct? 6 A. Yes, but they were so -- so badly reproduced 7 that I could scarcely identify what they were. 8 Q. Let's look on the first page of this document. 9 It states, quote, "The following information was 10 given to us by the presidents o= the leading tobacco 11 companies at the Hotel Plaza this morning." 12 Is it your understanding that the industry first 13 came together on or about December 15th, 1953, to 14 address the issue of smoking and cancer? 15 A. That's the information I've been given. 16 MR. MERRITT: Let me -- let me just 17 interrupt you. If you're going to examine him on 18 this, I think he should be given an opportunity to 19 read the thing. 20 MR. O'FALLON: Well, if he wants a second 21 to read it, I'll take a second to read it. I'm not 22 going to examine him on the whole document, but -- 23 THE WITNESS: Well I'm a slow reader and 24 the document is five pages in length. 25 MR. O'FALLON: Well -- STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 ~ T R I N 0 4 2- 8 S. 1 '3'

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 01:48:02 01:48:04 01:48:06 01:48:08 01:48:10 01:51:28 01:51:42 01:51:44 01:51:44 01:51:48 01:51:52 01:51:54 01:51:56 01:51:58 01:52:02 01:52:06 01:52:08 01:52:08 01:52:08 01:52:12 01:52:14 01:52:16 01:52:16 01:52:18 01:52:20 84 1 MR. MERRITT: He hasn't seen it before, and 2 I think he should have an oppor:unity to look at it. 3 Q. This document wasn't shown to you as part of the 4 documents that I identified as part of this 5 deposition? 6 A. No, sir. 7 (Witness reads the dccument.) 8 Q. Let's go to the first page, Dr. Glenn. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. Under Roman numeral I., "Participants," the 11 third paragraph, it states, "The group was called 12 together by Mr. Paul Hahn, P=esident of The American 13 Tobacco Company. The chief executive officers of all 14 of the leading companies - R. J. Reynolds, Philip 15 Morris, Benson & Hedges, U.S. Tobacco Company, Brown 16 & Williamson - have agreed to go along with the 17 public relations program on the health issue." 18 Correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. "Liggett & Myers is not participating in the 21 organization because that company feels that the 22 proper procedure is to ignore the whole controversy." 23 Correct? 24 A. That's what it says. 25 Q. So you've got some firms coming together feeling STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 c-rR HN 042894

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:52:28 01:52:30 01:52:32 01:52:34 01:52:34 01:52:42 01:52:46 01:52:48 01:52:48 01:52:50 01:52:54 01:52:56 01:52:58 01:53:00 01:53:02 01:53:06 01:53:10 01:53:12 01:53:14 01:53 :16 01:53:22 01:53:24 01:53:30 01:53:32 01:53:34 85 1 that what they need to do is to establish a public 2 relations program, and one member who simply feels -- 3 or non-member who simply feels the whole thing should 4 be ignored; correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Let's go over to page two, paragraph three. It 7 states "The Industry's Position;" correct? Tha,:'s 8 the title? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. The fourth paragraph states, quote, "They feel 11 that they should sponsor a public relations campaign 12 which is positive in nature and which is entire=y 13 'pro-cigarette."' Correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. That's certainly different than the implication 16 one would get from the Frank Statement; right? 17 A. But as I read this, the first paragraph under 18 Roman numeral III is that the industry is strongly 19 convinced that there is no sound scientific basis for 20 the charges that have been made. Those were charges 21 relative to smoking and health. Furthermore, in the 22 document, as it goes on, it addressed the issue of 23 research and relationship to the public relations 24 effort and the public information effort, so I don't 25 think this is incompatible. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C " T R I IN ~`0 42- 8 9, 5

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:53:36 01:53:38 01:53:40 01:53:42 01:53:44 01:53:48 01:53:50 01:53:52 01:53:54 01:53:58 01:54:00 01:54:04 01:54:06 01:54:10 01:54:12 01:54:16 01:54:18 01:54:22 01:54:24 01:54:26 01:54:26 01:54:28 01:54:30 01:54:32 86 1 Q. I move to strike as non -- 2 A. Clearly the industry was serving its own 3 interest. 4 Q. The implication of the Frank Statement, I 5 believe you've agreed, is that the cigarette industry 6 was trying to establish this independent body; 7 correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. There was no indication there that what the 10 cigarette industry wanted to establish is an ongoing 11 public relations campaign that is, quote, entirely 12 pro-cigarette; correct? 13 A. But this is refuted in the -- in the document 14 further on. 15 Q. We'll get to the rest of the document. 16 They also say, "They are also emphatic in saying 17 that the entire activity is a long-term, continuing 18 program, since they feel that the problem is one of 19 promoting cigarettes and protecting them from these 20 and other attacks that may be expected in the 21 future." Correct? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. So that's one of the industry's real concerns in 24 issuing the Frank Statement, they're trying to 25 promote their product and protect it from attack; STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 c~m 11N 042-218916

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:54:36 01:54:40 01:54:44 01:54:48 01:54:50 01:54:52 01:54:56 01:54:58 01:55:02 01:55:04 01:55:06 01:55:08 01:55:12 01:55:12 01:55:18 01:55:28 01:55:32 01:55:36 01:55:38 01:55:40 01:55:44 01:55:46 01:55:48 01:55:50 87 1 correct? 2 MR. MERRITT: I object to the form. 3 A. Correct. And I think in 1954, any tobacco 4 executive participating in this discussion would have 5 to feel that way. 6 Q. But they don't state that iz the Frank 7 Statement, that one of their primary goals here is to 8 make sure that their product is free from attack and 9 is is continued to be sold; correct? 10 A. The verbiage is different, but I think the 11 implication is the same. 12 Q. I thought you said the implication was that they 13 were trying to establish this independent body, not 14 somebody who's meant to speak as a mouthpiece for the 15 industry. 16 A. They did establish an independent body. 17 Q. Let's look on the third page. In the middle of 18 the page, one of the charges that Mr. Hill was asking 19 the industry about is the following, quote, "Wi_l the 20 companies agree to sponsor new research which will 21 provide definitive answers to the charges?" Correct? 22 A. It says "will provide definite answers to the 23 charges," but -- 24 Q. You're right. I'm sorry, I misread that, "will 25 provide definite answers to the charges;" correct? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR MIN 042-89-Yi"

C O N F I D E N T I A L 01:55:50 01:55:52 01:55:54 01:55:54 01:55:58 01:56:02 01:56:04 01:56:06 01:56:08 01:56:10 01:56:14 01:56:16 01:56:22 01:56:24 01:56:26 01:56:30 01:56:34 01:56:36 01:56:40 01:56:42 01:56:42 01:56:52 01:56:54 01:56:56 01:56:56 88 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. The answer is, "A clear-cut answer to this 3 question was deferred for the time being;" correct? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. So at least as of this time they certainly 6 aren't willing to commit to new research that will 7 have any significant impact; correct? 8 A. No. If you read on, you will see Mr. Hill did 9 not agree with this and warned the companies that 10 they should expect to sponsor additional research. 11 So I think he had a significant impact on the 12 formation of TIRC. 13 Q. Let's look on page four. "As another indication 14 of how serious the problem is," -- I'm reading from 15 the top -- "the officials stated that salesmen in the 16 industry are frantically alarmed and that the decline 17 in tobacco stocks on the stock exchange market has 18 caused grave concern, especially since tobacco 19 earnings will be much higher next year because of the 20 termination of excess profits taxes;" correct? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. Now under "Other Information" it indicates that 23 Hill & Knowlton -- 24 Which is a big PR firm; correct? 25 A. Yes. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Cf R f f N 0°'f' ~ G %

C O N F I D E N T I A L 89 01:57:00 01:57:04 01:57:04 01:57:06 01:57:10 01:57:12 01:57:16 01:57:20 01:57:22 01:57:28 01:57:32 01:57:38 01:57:40 01:57:42 01:57:44 02:00:00 02:00:26 02:00:34 02:00:44 02:00:48 02:00:50 1 Q. That the current plans are for Hill & Knowlton 2 to serve as the operating agent of the companies; 3 right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. So basically :.his was from the beginning -- TIRC 6 and the Frank Statement was from the beginning a 7 public relations carnpaign on behalf of the industry 8 to reassure the public that their products were okay; 9 correct? 10 A. I -- I can't interpret that. I think that 11 the -- the industry was responding in a very 12 responsible fashion to the questions of smoking and 13 health in establis:ing a research body made up o= 14 independent scientists who would encourage research 15 into questions of smoking and health. 16 THE REPC:cTER: We have to change tape. Off 17 the record, please. 18 (Recess ::aken.) 19 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1149 was marked 20 for ider.::ification.) 21 BY MR. O'FALLON: 22 Q. Doctor, Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1149 is a document 23 Bates stamp numbered JH000395 through JH000400. This 24 is, again, a document from the Hill & Knowlton files 25 that are publicly available. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 L.r f s i'+. f i f"f 042-89"°°t

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:00:52 02:00:52 02:00:56 02:01:00 02:01:00 02:01:04 02:01:08 02:01:08 02:01:10 02:01:12 02:01:16 02:01:20 02:01:24 02:01:26 02:01:28 02:01:34 02:01:38 02:01:40 02:01:42 02:01:44 02:01:48 02:01:54 02:01:58 90 1 Have you seen this document previously? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. The very first page is an agenda that's dated 4 January 18th of 1954. Do you see that? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And the second page is dated January 15th of 7 1954; - 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. -- do you see that? 10 Now I think we've agreed that the Frank 11 Statement was really the kick-off event for the TIRC; 12 correct? 13 A. I wouldn't have used those terms, but yes. 14 Q. The inaugural event? 15 A. I think it -- it was the initial statement that 16 TIRC would be formed. 17 Q. Under number Roman numeral I, "ADVERTISING," on 18 the second page of this document, JH000396, it sets 19 forth the distribution of the Frank Statement; 20 correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. It states that "The Committee statement, 23 entitled 'A Frank Statement to Cigarette Smokers,' 24 appeared in 448 newspapers, reaching a circulation of 25 43,245,000 in 258 cities." Correct? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CI ~ R ~N 0 4 229. 0 0

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:01:58 02:02:02 02:02:06 02:02:08 02:02:08 02:02:18 02:02:20 02:02:20 02:02:22 02:02:26 02:02:28 02:02:30 02:02:30 02:02:34 02:02:36 02:02:38 02:02:40 02:02:42 02:02:46 02:03:06 02:03:10 02:03:10 91 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. "This included, with very few exceptions, all 3 cities of 50,000 or more population, plus all plant 4 or headquarter cities of Committee members." 5 Correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. On the second page it talks about "PRESS RELEASE 8 AND PRESS COVERAGE." Do you see that? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. It says, "The press release announcing formation 11 of the Committee was given national distribution and 12 was widely covered by newspaper, radio, TV and the 13 magazines;" correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. In other words, this Frank Statement was very 16 widely distributed throughout the country; correct? 17 A. I would assume. 18 Q. It would be reasonable to assume that it 19 appeared numerous times in my state, Minnesota; 20 correct? 21 A. I -- I have no knowledge of that, but I assume 22 it to be true. 23 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1150 was marked 24 for identification.) 25 BY MR. O'FALLON: STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Ci fb i fN 0`"!' 29't.d 1

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 02:03:14 02:03:20 02:03:22 02:03:24 02:03:26 02:03:30 02:03:34 02:03:38 02:08:58 02:09:00 02:09:00 02:09:02 02:09:04 02:09:10 02:09:12 02:09:14 02:09:16 02:09:18 02:09:18 02:09:20 02:09:24 02:09:26 02:09:30 02:09:32 92 1 Q. I have marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1150 a 2 document Bates stamp numbered JH000493 through 3 JH000501. 4 Have you seen this document previously? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. This is again a document that's been produced 7 out of publicly available files concerning Hill & 8 Knowlton. Would you like a minute to read this? 9 A. Yes, please. 10 (Witness reads document.) 11 Q. Have you had a chance to review the document, 12 sir? 13 A. I have. 14 Q. Let's turn to the second page of Exhibit 1150, 15 Bates number JH000494, and let's just stop -- start 16 at the top. 17 First of all, you would agree that this is a 18 document that is talking about Hill & Knowlton's 19 dealing with the tobacco industry; correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. At the top they say, quote, "The attitude of the 22 men we must directly deal with in the industry is 23 what -- is at once interesting, and important for 24 to understand. That is why notes on the four 25 interviews with, quote, research directors, end at us STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R H N 0 42 9-- 022

C O N F I D E N?' I A L 02:09:38 02:09:42 02:09:46 02:09:48 02:09:48 02:09:50 02:09:52 02:09:56 02:09:56 02:10:02 02:10:04 02:10:06 02:10:10 02:10:12 02:10:14 02:10:16 02:10:20 02:10:22 02:10:22 02:10:24 02:10:28 02:10:28 02:10:34 02:10:44 93 1 quote, are given at some length. You'll get from 2 them very little information about cancer, pro or 3 con; but you'll find some mighty interesting 4 opinions." Correct? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. One of the first opinions is, quote, "One of the 7 men said, quote, It's fortunate for us that 8 cigarettes are a habit they can't break," end quote; 9 correct? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Has that ever been made public by the industry, 12 that it's a habit they can't break? 13 A. I think the industry has known for years that 14 smoking is habituating, and I think that's been 15 publicly acknowledged. 16 Q. Wouldn't you agree that saying something is a 17 habit that one can't break is akin to saying that 18 that person is addicted to that substance? 19 A. No, sir, I do not accept that definition of 20 addiction. 21 Q. Would you agree -- 22 A. Nor would any -- nor would any reliable 23 scientist. 24 Q. Well, do you ascribe to the definition of 25 addiction that's been adopted or the definition of STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR MN 042.. +~3

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:10:46 02:10:48 02:10:48 02:10:54 02:10:54 02:10:58 02:7.1:00 02:11:02 02:11:08 02:11:08 02:11:12 02:11:14 02:11:20 02:11:20 02:11:22 02:11:24 02:11:28 02:11:30 02:11:30 02:11:32 02:11:34 02:11:44 02:11:44 02:11:44 02:11:48 94 1 dependence that's been adopted -- 2 A. Dependence and addiction are two different 3 things. 4 Q. Okay. So you do not accept the American 5 Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical 6 Manual IV, the DSM IV, as the accepted definition of 7 "substance dependence." 8 A. I'm not aware of the definition that they use, 9 but dependence, habituation, addiction are all 10 different terms. 11 Q. So it would be your testimony that dependence is 12 not synonymous with addiction. 13 A. No. It's a different word. It means a 14 different thing. 15 Q. And you've never looked at the accepted 16 definition by the American Psychiatric Association in 17 their Diagnostic and Statistical Manual roman numeral 18 IV; correct? 19 A. No, sir, I have not. 20 Q. And you're not a psychiatrist; right? 21 A. No, sir. 22 Q. Let's go to the next statement. "Said 23 another: 'Boy! wouldn't it be wonderful if our 24 company was the first to produce a cancer free 25 cigarette. What we could do to the competition!" STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR H1 N 0 42".29-W04

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:11:50 02:11:52 02:11:54 02:11:56 02:11:58 02:12:02 02:12:06 02:12:08 02:12:10 02:12:14 02:12:16 02:12:18 02:12:22 02:12:26 02:12:28 02:12:28 02:12:32 02:12:32 02:12:38 02:12:38 02:12:40 02:12:42 02:12:44 02:12:46 02:12:50 95 1 You would agree that the clear implication is that 2 that particular individual thought that cigarettes 3 did produce cancer; correct? 4 A. Certainly, using the word "cause" in the lay 5 sense. 6 Q. And you would agree that that statement is 7 directly opposite the statement made by the 8 manufacturers that they don't believe their products 9 are injurious to health; correct? 10 A. Well we're talking about two different 11 individuals; you were talking first about this man 12 who's being interviewed, and then you're talking 13 about collectively the executives of the company, and 14 I think it stated very clearly that they were not 15 convinced that their product was causing any harm. 16 Q. Well apparently -- 17 A. But this was in 1954. My goodness. 18 Q. Apparently a research director of one of the 19 tobacco companies felt that their cigarettes did 20 cause cancer; correct? 21 MR. MERRITT: Well are you -- are you -- 22 I'm sorry. Are you asking him is that what the 23 document recites, or does he have knowledge that 24 that's in fact the case? 25 Q. Doctor, do you understand my question? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR ~''~# 0~_~'. ~

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:12:52 02:12:54 02:12:58 02:12:58 02:13:02 02:13:02 02:13:06 02:13:08 02:13:10 02:13:12 02:13:16 02:13:16 02:13:18 02:13:22 02:13:26 02:13:28 02:13:30 02 :13 :32 02:13:36 02:13:38 02:13:40 02:13:44 02:13:-l6 02:13:46 96 1 A. I understand your question, but I'm not -- 2 I can't put myself inside this man's head. I 3 don't know what he thought about smoking and -- and 4 cancer. 5 Q. Well we can judge him by his statements; 6 correct? 7 A. No, I don't think we can. 8 Q. You don't think we can judge him by his 9 statements, that it would be wonderful if our company 10 was the first to produce a cancer-free cigarette? 11 You can't judge that, by making that statement, he is 12 indicating that he in fact thinks cigarettes do cause 13 cancer? 14 A. No. I think he's being very flip here. And 15 this is in 1954 and it was before a direct 16 relationship between smoking and a variety of 17 diseases had been scientifically established. 18 Q. Well -- 19 A. He was making an assumption that some people may 20 believe that smoking may, quote, cause cancer. 21 Q. That's not what he says there; is it, sir? 22 A. No, it's not what he says, but you're asking me 23 to get -- get inside his head, and I'm trying to. 24 Q. I'm asking you to judge him by what is said. 25 And what -- STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 i. r f~'. HN s.r+429.06

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:13:48 02:13:48 02:13:50 02:13:52 02:13:54 02:13:58 02:14:02 02:14:06 02:14:08 02:14:10 02:14:10 02:14:12 02:14:14 02:14:16 02:14:16 02:14:22 02:14:26 02:14:30 02:14:36 02:14:40 02:14:44 02:14:44 02:14:48 02:14:52 97 1 A. I will -- 2 Q. -- he has said -- 3 A. I will not judge him on the basis of this one 4 statement, taken out of context. 5 Q. You would agree that if a research director of a 6 tobacco company believed that cigarette smoking 7 caused cancer and his president or CEO knew that, it 8 would be fairly misleading for that CEO to then sign 9 off on a statement saying, well, we believe 10 cigarettes are not injurious. 11 MR. MERRITT: Object to the form of the 12 question. 13 A. I don't think that question can be answered. I 14 don't think it's a question, I think it's an 15 editorial. 16 Q. Research directors are the people entrusted with 17 knowing about the health effects of cigarettes; 18 correct, sir? 19 A. As a matter of fact, the companies in that era 20 employed research directors to investigate the 21 product and not issues of health. They were not -- 22 they were not conducting internal research on health 23 matters. 24 Q. Well if they did have internal research and it 25 showed that cigarette smoking is clearly implicated STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 t, CTR HN 042-90'~

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:14:56 02:14:58 02:15:00 02:15:02 02:15:04 02:15:06 02:15:08 02:15:10 02:15:12 02:15:12 02:15:16 02:15:18 02:15:20 02:15:22 02:15:24 02:15:24 02:15:26 02:15:30 02:15:34 02:15:36 02:15:40 02:15:46 02:15:50 02:15:52 98 1 in cancer, then it would certainly be misleading for 2 them to have made the statement they did in the Frank 3 Statement that cigarettes are not injurious; 4 correct? 5 MR. MERRITT: Object -- 6 A. Again it's an editorial. 7 MR. MERRITT: Let me state my objection. 8 I'm going to object to the question. 9 Q. The third statement is concern about the stock 10 market fall; correct? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. And the concern that, gee, if everybody smoked 13 just one cigarette less a day, that would add up to 14 40 billion a year; correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. In other words, he's concerned about their sales 17 going down; isn't he? 18 A. Somebody is. 19 Q. Well a research director, we know; right? 20 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to object to the 21 question. 22 A. Research directors were for the most part 23 non-medical people; they were Ph.D.'s, they many 24 times were engineers. 25 Q. They were -- STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR f iN 04"9OS

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:15:54 02:15:56 02:16:00 02:16:02 02:16:04 02:16:06 02:16:06 02:16:08 02:16:12 02:16:16 02:16:18 02:16:22 02:16:28 02:16:32 02:16:34 02:16:36 02:16:38 02:16:46 02:16:46 02:16:46 02:16:46 02:16:52 02:16:56 02:17:00 02:17:02 99 1 A. They were not -- they were not public health 2 experts and they were not physicians. 3 Q. Well, but that's a problem of the companies; 4 right? I mean certainly if the companies wanted to 5 hire a medical doctor as a research director, there 6 was nothing stopping them from doing it. 7 A. They could have. 8 Q. And they just chose not to. 9 MR. MERRITT: Object to the question. 10 A. Well we're talking about 1954. What research 11 were the companies interested in? They were 12 interested in researc:h on their own product, as I -- 13 as I recall it. But that, again, was 45 years ago. 14 Q. And yet even though that was their main 15 interest, they're willing to go out and make a public 16 statement that their products are not injurious to 17 health, having apparently done no research themselves 18 concerning that issue. 19 MR. MERRITT: Object to the question. 20 A. You're asking me what they believed. I accepted 21 that they believed that their product was not 22 injurious, but that was another time and another era. 23 Q. And the second -- 24 Well, which is even more reason why statements 25 that the tobacco industry is going to make is going STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R ~ I N 0 42- 9 0 R.E.,

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:17:04 02:17:08 02:17:08 02:17:16 02:17:18 02:17:22 02:17:24 02:17:26 02:17:32 02:17:34 02:17:36 02:17:38 02:17:38 02:17:40 02:17:44 02:17:46 02:17:50 02:17:52 02:17:54 02 :17 :58 02:18:00 02:18:00 02:18:02 02:18:16 02:18:20 100 1 to have a huge impact, especially when you take out 2 an advertisement that's circulated throughout the 3 country; correct? 4 MR. MERRITT: Object to the question. 5 A. I don't understand the question. 6 Q. The second paragraph says, "At the moment, these 7 men feel thrown for a loop. They've competed for 8 years - not in price, not in any real difference of 9 quality - but just in ability to conjure up more 10 hypnotic claims and brighter assurances for what 11 their own brand might do for a smoker, compared to 12 another brand;" correct? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. "And now, suddenly, they feel all out of bounds, 15 because the old claims become unimportant overnight; 16 they are suddenly challenged to produce just one, 17 simple fact. Walter Winchell told his own audience 18 the nature of this fact, in brief words: 'The burden 19 of proof has shifted. It is no longer up to the 20 scientists to prove that cigarettes cause lung 21 cancer. It is a duty of all concerned to prove that 22 they do not.'" Correct? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Let's look on page three. This portion of the 25 document basically concludes that, quote, "There is STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C` T R H N 0 4 ~9 10

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:18:22 02:18:26 02:18:30 02:18:34 02:18:38 02:18:42 02:18:44 02:18:46 02:18:46 02:18:48 02:18:50 02:18:54 02:18:58 02:19:00 02:19:02 02:19:04 02:19:10 02:19:12 02:19:14 02:19:22 02:19:34 02:19:38 02:19:42 02:19:48 02:19:50 101 1 only one problem - confidence, and how to establish 2 it; public assurance, and how to create it -- in a 3 perhaps long interim when scientific doubts must 4 remain. And, most important, how to free millions of 5 Americans from the guilty fear that is going to arise 6 deep in their biological depths -- regardless of any 7 pooh-poohing logic -- every time they light a 8 cigarette." Right? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And that's really what the industry was about at 11 this point in time, trying to do everything they 12 could to protect their product; correct? 13 MR. MERRITT: Object to the question. 14 Q. Correct? 15 A. You are -- 16 You are interpreting these statements to your 17 satisfaction. I interpret this as an internal 18 document from Hill & Knowlton, which is a public 19 relations firm, and they are trying to define the 20 problem that is presented to them by the industry. 21 Q. Let's look on page five. The first paragraph 22 follows up under problem two which indicates that, 23 again, one of the goals here is to reassure the 24 public. On page five it states, quote, "The fact is, 25 of course, that no one who has been a heavy smoker is STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Cf R NN 0402.r* .1~ .i~

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:19:54 02:19:54 02:19:58 02:20:00 02:20:04 02:20:06 02:20:10 02:20:10 02:20:10 02:20:12 02:20:14 02:20:14 02:20:14 02:20:20 02:20:22 02:20:24 02:20:28 02:20:30 02:20:32 02:20:36 02:20:38 02:20:42 02:20:44 02:20:48 02:20:50 102 1 going to benefit himself now by falling into a panic, 2 and eliminating the pleasure and comfort of the 3 cigarettes -- of cigarettes. He might just as well 4 go on enjoying his smoke in this interim while 5 research pursues the facts, wit?: full assurance that 6 if any cancer-causing agent is ever found in tobacco, 7 the manufacturers will quickly _`ind a way to 8 eliminate it." Correct? 9 A. Right. 10 MR. MERRITT: I think you -- 11 Well let me object to that. I think you left a 12 word out. 13 MR. O'FALLON: Oh, I'm sorry. 14 MR. MERRITT: "...is ever really found in 15 tobacco..." I think is what the document says. 16 Q. Let me read it again. Let me read that last 17 part. It states, "The fact is, of course, that no 18 one who has ever been a heavy smoker is going to 19 benefit himself now by falling into a panic, and 20 eliminating the pleasure and comfort of cigarettes. 21 He might just as well go on enjoying his smoke in 22 this interim while research pursues the facts, with 23 full assurance that if any cancer-causing agent is 24 ever really found in tobacco, the manufacturers will 25 quickly find a way to eliminate it." Correct? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R t- I N 0 4 2- 912-

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:20:52 02:20:54 02:20:58 02:21:00 02:21:06 02:21:12 02:21:18 02:21:30 02:21:36 02:21:44 02:21:46 02:21:52 02:21:54 02:21:56 02:22:00 02:22:00 02:22:06 02:22:08 02:22:08 02:22:12 02:22:16 02:22:20 02:22:22 02:22:26 02:22:34 103 1 A. That is what it says. 2 Q. And again, that's really what this whole TIRC is 3 about, reassuring the public; correct? 4 A. No, that is not what TIRC was about. They were 5 about sponsoring independent research which would 6 shed further light on issues of smoking and health. 7 Q. I'm going to hand you a document that has been 8 previously marked as ?laintiffs' Exhibit 398. This 9 is a document that's dated April 9th, 1962, Bates 10 stamped, I believe, C^R MN 2, and there's also 11 another Bates number at the top of the page, 12 HK0039151 through 152. 13 Have you seen this document previously, sir? 14 A. I don't think so. 15 Q. Okay. Do you kncw who Mr. Brady is, or Dr. 16 Brady? 17 A. No. 18 Q. You do know who C. C. Little is; correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. C. C. Little was the director of TIRC; correct? 21 A. Dr. Little was director of TIRC. He was 22 president of what later became the American Cancer 23 Society. He had been president of the University of 24 Maine and the University of Michigan. He founded the 25 Bar Harbor Laboratory and introduced the first inbred STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R Il N 0 4 ~~ ~ 2-3

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:22:38 02:22:40 02:22:46 02:22:48 02:22:48 02:22:48 02:22:48 02:22:52 02:22:54 02:22:56 02:22:58 02:23:02 02:23:04 02:23:06 02:23:06 02:23:08 02:23:10 02:23:14 02:23:18 02:23:18 02:23:22 02:23:24 02:23:26 02:23:30 02:23:32 104 1 strain of mice, which opened up whole new vistas for 2 various types of research. He was an extremely 3 distinguished individual. 4 Q. And again, someone the public should be entitled 5 to rely on when he makes statements concerning 6 health; correct? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. In this memo at the second paragraph it 9 states -- 10 Well first let's go to the first paragraph. It 11 says, "After nearly two years with TIRC, and in an 12 attempt to clarify my feelings about our program - 13 past, present and future - the following will convey 14 a few thoughts on the matter." Correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. So it appears that this was one of the emp'_oyees 17 of TIRC; correct? 18 A. If I had to speculate about it -- 19 I don't remember this gentlemen's name, but I 20 would imagine that he may have been one of the early 21 members of the scientific staff. 22 Q. Okay. He states, quote, "Historically, it would 23 seem that the 1954 emergency was handled 24 effectively. From this experience there arose a 25 realization by the tobacco industry of a public STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CT/ 1 l I l ! 01 Luq aI^ e/n I:

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:23:36 02:23:36 02:23:38 02:23:44 02:23:48 02:23:50 02:23:52 02:23:54 02:23:54 02:23:56 02:23:58 02:24:02 02:24:04 02:24:04 02:24:08 02:24:08 02:24:10 02:24:12 02:24:16 02:24:18 02:24:22 02:24:22 02:24:24 02:24:26 02:24:30 105 1 relations problem that must be solved for the 2 self-preservation of the industry." Correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. So again he's indicating that the TIRC was a 5 public relations effort which was necessary to the 6 self-preservation of the industry; correct? 7 A. He doesn't -- he doesn't say that. 8 Q. That's the clear implication; right? 9 A. He said -- 10 No, it is not. He said there arose a 11 realization by the tobacco industry of a public 12 relations problem that must be solved for the 13 self-nreservation of the industry. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. He's looking at the industry's position, -- 16 Q. Okay. Let's -- 17 A. -- not the TIRC position. 18 Q. Well let's look at the fourth paragraph, first 19 sentence. He says, "To date, the TIRC program has 20 carried its fair share of the public relations load 21 in providing materials to stamp out the brush fires 22 as they arose." Correct? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. So it would appear that TIRC has been an 25 integral part of the tobacco industry's effort to STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 l,. rF" / ! T / I N 042.V' .& ~e10•'

C O N F I D E N^_ I A L 106 02:24:32 02:24:36 02:24:40 02:24:42 02:24:46 02:25:04 02:25:06 02:25:10 02:25:12 02:25:14 02:25:16 02:25:20 02:25:26 02:25:30 02:25:34 02:25:38 02:25:42 02:25:44 02:25:46 02:25:48 02:25:50 02:25:52 02:26:08 02:26:10 1 stamp out these claims of health problems associated 2 with cigarette smoking; correct? 3 A. I think you're over-interpreting. That's not 4 what he says. I agree to your reading of the 5 sentence but not to your interpretation. 6 This is an interesting document because it goes 7 on to say, "I believe a few more doctors are giving 8 up smoking, not because they want to but because of 9 the collective pressures from both medical and lay 10 media." 11 Q. Again emphasizing the need for a counter 12 reaction on behalf of the tobacco industry; correct? 13 A. No. I think it just states the case as it was 14 in 1962, that -- which was before the Surgeon 15 General's first report, and this typifies the -- the 16 confusion, controversy and ambivalence that 17 surrounded the whole issue of smoking and health at 18 that point in time. 19 Q. Well it actually typified ~he pressure that was 20 being brought to bear in some c?rcles that was 21 threatening the industry, at least according to the 22 industry's own internal documents; correct? 23 A. No. That again is an editorial. 24 (Plaintiffs " Exhibit 1151 was marked 25 for identification.) STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C`~R ~N 0 4 d2'9W 16

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:26:10 02:26:14 02:26:22 02:26:24 02:26:24 02:26:30 02:26:34 02:26:34 02:26:34 02:26:38 02:26:38 02:26:40 02:26:40 02:26:42 02:26:44 02:26:46 02:26:48 02:26:52 02:26:54 02:27:00 02:27:02 02:27:04 02:27:06 02:27:08 02:27:10 107 1 BY MR. O'FALLON: 2 Q. Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1151 is a document Bates 3 stamp numbered 2022200161 through 163. 4 Have you seen this document previously? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. This is a memo from Helmut Wakeham to Mr. J. F. 7 Cullman III. Are you familiar with those two 8 individuals? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Helmut Wakeham was at one time the research 11 director of Philip Morris; correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Mr. Cullman was the president; correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. The subject matter is the, quote, "'Best' 16 Program for C.T.R.;" correct? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. At number one Mr. Wakeham goes through to state 19 the objective or purpose of CTR; correct? 20 A. With his interpretation. 21 Q. Right. His interpretation. And again, this is 22 one of the people who has been working with the 23 industry, and, of course, this is an industry 24 statement about an organization they fund and 25 control; correct? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R 1- 1 N 0 4 2- R- I * ?"

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:27:12 02:27:14 02:27:18 02:27:22 02:27:26 02:27:28 02:27:30 02:27:32 02:27:38 02:27:44 02:27:46 02:27:50 02:27:50 02:27:54 02:27:56 02:27:56 02:27:58 02:28:02 02:28:04 02:28:08 02:28:10 02:28:10 02:28:12 02:28:14 02:28:16 108 1 MR. MERRITT: Well I'm going to object to 2 that. 3 A. They fund the CTR, that is correct. 4 Q. Right. They -- 5 He states the objective or purpose of CTR, 6 quote, "To aid and assist research into tobacco use 7 and health, and to make available to the public 8 factual information on this subject." Correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. He then goes on at number two to state, quote, 11 "It has been stated that CTR is a program to find 12 out, quote, the truth about smoking and health.'" 13 Correct? 14 A. I don't know whether that quotation is 15 correct, 16 Q. Well -- 17 A. -- "the truth about smoking and health." I've 18 never seen it written like that. 19 Q. But isn't that similar to what you've testified 20 about, that the goal of TIRC and CTR was to establish 21 the truth? 22 A. No, I didn't say that. 23 Q. You've never said that. 24 A. I said issues of smoking and health. 25 Q. Okay. But would you agree generally that one of STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 ~..r f R t f N 0412918

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:28:24 02:28:24 02:28:24 02:28:26 02:28:30 02:28:36 02:28:38 02:28:40 02:28:42 02:28:44 02:28:44 02:28:48 02:28:48 02:28:50 02:28:52 02:28:58 02:28:58 02:29:04 02:29:06 02:29:08 02:29:10 02:29:14 02:29:16 02:29:18 02:29:20 109 1 the missions of CTR was to find out the truth about 2 smoking and health? 3 A. Well what I'm questioning here is where that 4 statement came from. It looks as if he is making a 5 quotation from some document, and I'm unfamiliar with 6 that particular phrase occurring in any document. 7 Q. Well, would you agree that that is basically 8 what the industry was saying the purpose of TIRC was 9 from the beginning? 10 MR. MERRITT: When you say "that," you mean 11 what? 12 MR. O'FALLON: That s::atement. Let me 13 rephrase it. 14 Q. Would you agree that from zhe beginning, the 15 industry has basically alleged or implied that the 16 purpose of CTR and its predecessor, TIRC, was to find 17 out the truth about smoking and health? 18 A. The statement that the industry made was that 19 they would investigate the issues of smoking and 20 health. 21 Q. Was the implication, either stated in the Frank 22 Statement or stated after that, that the industry 23 would find out, quote, the truth about smoking and 24 health? Wasn't that the clear implication of the 25 Frank Statement and subsequent statements made by the STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R H N 0 4'A2 9 19

02:29:24 02:29:26 02:29:34 02:29:40 02:29:42 02:29:46 02:29:48 02:29:52 02:29:56 02:30:04 02:30:10 02:30:16 02:30:20 02:30:24 02:30:30 02:30:34 02:30:42 02:30:46 02:30:50 02:30:52 02:30:56 02:30:58 02:31:02 02:31:04 02:31:06 C O N F I D E N T I A L 110 1 industry and by TIRC? 2 A. I don't know that this particular quotation was 3 ever published in any materials of TIRC, CTR, or the 4 industry, so I cannot subscribe to this. The Frank 5 Statement uses different verbiage. 6 Q. Regardless of the verbiage, the precise verbiage 7 that you -- that is used, wouldn't you agree that the 8 implication of the statements made by the tobacco 9 industry were that the TIRC and the CTR were designed 10 to find out the truth about smoking and health? 11 A. CTR and TIRC have both funded independent 12 research by investigators and a host of institutions 13 nationwide and worldwide. They have encouraged 14 publication in every instance. The publications have 15 not been uniform in relation to the interests of the 16 tobacco industry; in fact, hundreds of publications 17 that TI -- CTR has been acknowledged -- in which CTR 18 has been acknowledged are adverse to the interests of 19 the industry, namely, selling their product. So in 20 the -- in that sense, yes, we are searching for 21 scientific truth. 22 Q. I'm going to move to strike the majority of that 23 answer as non-responsive. I'm going to ask it again. 24 Wouldn't you agree that the clear implication of 25 the statements made by the tobacco industry about STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C' T R H N 0 4 20- - 9. ,~0

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:31:10 02:31:12 02:31:14 02:31:14 02:31:18 02:31:20 02:31:20 02:31:30 02:31:34 02:31:40 02:31:44 02:31:50 02:31:56 02:31:58 02:32:02 02:32:04 02:32:14 02:32:18 02:32:20 02:32:24 02:32:26 02:32:30 02:32:32 02:32:36 111 1 TIRC and CTR were that these organizations were 2 designed to find out the truth about smoking and 3 health? 4 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to object to the 5 form of the question in terms of the lack of 6 definition in -- in the statements that you're 7 referring to. 8 If you understand it, you can answer. 9 A. Science is truth. 10 Q. Dr. Wakeham goes on to state that the goal of 11 CTR was never to simply find out the truth; correct? 12 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to object to that. 13 Are you asking if that's what this document says, or 14 are you asking him to characterize it? 15 MR. O'FALLON: My question stands. 16 Would you like it read back? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, please. 18 (Record read by the court reporter.) 19 A. I don't -- I don't see that in the document. 20 Q. All right. Here's what he writes, quote, "What 21 is truth to one is false to another. CTR and the 22 Industry have publicly and frequently denied what 23 others find as 'truth.' Let's face it. We are 24 interested in evidence which we believe denies the 25 allegation that cigarette smoking causes disease." STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR MN 042..21

02:32:36 02:32:40 02:32:44 02:32:52 02:32:56 02:32:58 02:33:04 02:33:12 02:33:16 02:33:20 02:33:30 02:33:34 02:33:38 02:33:42 02:33:42 02:33:44 02:33:46 02:33:48 02:33:52 02:33:56 02:33:58 02:34:00 02:34:04 02:34:08 02:34:10 C O N F I D E N T I A L 112 1 Correct? 2 A. Well that's Dr. Wakeham's comment, and I've read 3 a number of -- of Dr. Wakeham's memoranda, which are 4 legion, and he is simply expressing a Wakeham opinion 5 again, and this has no relationship to the way CTR 6 functioned. This was an expression by an employee of 7 one of the companies written to zis boss, and as I 8 interpret it, trying to gain favor from his employer, 9 but it has nothing to do with -- with CTR or TIRC 10 policy or function. This is an internal memorandum 11 from one notoriously verbose employee to his boss. 12 Q. This is a statement by a research director of a 13 major cigarette manufacturer which is in fact funding 14 and controlling the very entity which he's 15 addressing, -- 16 A. No, you're reading -- 17 Q. -- The Council for Tobacco Research; correct? 18 A. No. You're -- you're misinterpreting this. 19 This is an internal memorandum in the company, it 20 discusses Dr. Wakeham's view of the world, and it has 21 nothing to do with the way CTR actually functioned. 22 Wakeham had no influence on the -- on the 23 function of CTR. The Scientific Advisory Board 24 determined the course for CTR and determined the 25 research it would support. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR HN 04 ~'~~~

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:34:12 02:34:16 02:34:20 02:34:20 02:34:22 02:34:24 02:34:26 02:34:30 02:34:34 02:34:34 02:34:34 02:34:38 02:34:40 02:34:40 02:34:42 02:34:46 02:34:50 02:34:54 02:35:00 02:35:02 02:35:06 02:35:10 02:35:14 02:35:18 113 1 Q. Fact of the matter is is a lot of research was 2 done outside the Scientific Advisory Board; correct? 3 A. No, a lot was not done outside the Scientific 4 Advisory Board. 5 Q. Special projects were funded on behalf of the 6 industry which weren't cleared through the SAB; 7 correct? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. So in that instance -- 10 A. Perfectly legitimate. 11 Q. In that instance CTR was being used as an arm of 12 the industry to gather information that the industry 13 found useful in defeating allegations of health risks 14 of cigarettes; correct, sir? 15 A. Let's -- 16 No, sir, that is not correct. That's -- that's 17 your editorial. The special projects, which numbered 18 only something around a hundred in number as opposed 19 to several thousand research projects accomplished 20 under the Scientific Advisory Board aegis, the 21 special projects were a perfectly legitimate, 22 reasonable undertaking. They were done at the -- at 23 the request of the industry. They frequently 24 examined issues of smoking and health, they 25 frequently examined areas of general public interest STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CYl I- I l I I W'  Ewt ~` fhrC 1w~

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:35:24 02:35:30 02:35:32 02:35:34 02:35:38 02:35:44 02:35:52 02:35:54 02:36:00 02:36:02 02:36:04 02:36:06 02:36:08 02:36:08 02:36:14 02:36:20 02:36:22 02:36:26 02:36:28 02:36:30 02:36:32 02:36:36 02:36:40 02:36:44 114 1 such as the sick-building syndrome, for example. 2 Special projects were a relatively small part of the 3 total operation of CTR. 4 Q. The fact of the matter is you never publicly 5 disclosed in a full, paid ad taken out in 448 6 newspapers that part of the CTR was now being used to 7 simply do research on behalf of the industry; 8 correct? 9 A. I don't know when special projects were 10 initiated, but they were not certainly extant at the 11 time of the Frank Statement, if that's what you mean. 12 Q. What I'm asking -- 13 A. Neither were -- 14 The Scientific Advisory Board hadn't been 15 appointed either. 16 Q. I'm asking you when did CTR take out the public 17 ad in 448 newspapers advising the people of this 18 country that what had originally been formed as an 19 independent entity was now being used to conduct the 20 research of the tobacco industry for purposes of 21 defending litigation? 22 A. I don't -- I don't see any obligation to do 23 that. Special projects were legitimate research, 24 accomplished legitimately, and CTR merely served as 25 the disbursing agent for those projects at the STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R H N 0 4229 2` 4

, C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:36:48 02:36:50 02:36:52 02:36:56 02:36:56 02:36:58 02:37:00 02:37:02 02:37:04 02:37:06 02:37:08 02:37:08 02:37:10 02:37:12 02:37:16 02:37:18 02:37:20 02:37:22 02:37:22 02:37:24 02:37:28 02:37:32 02:37:36 02:37:38 02:37:40 115 1 request of the sponsor companies. And there were 2 very good, valid reasons for that. 3 Q. One of those good, valid reasons would be so 4 that the industry could distance themselves from any 5 results; correct? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. You would also agree that certainly any 8 documents relating to special projects should not now 9 be claimed as privileged in this litigation in order 10 to protect them; correct? 11 MR. MERRITT: Object to that as calling for 12 a legal conclusion. 13 A. 7 can't answer that. 14 Q. I mean, CTR wants everything it does to be 15 publicly known, so we shouldn't have to be fighting 16 issues of privilege concerned CTR and research on 17 special projects; correct? 18 MR. MERRITT: Object to the question. 19 A. I don't understand the question. 20 Q. It's your testimony that it wasn't the lawyers 21 who directed the special projects? 22 A. The special projects were, I think, sometimes 23 identified by attorneys, sometimes identified by the 24 manufacturers. Always done under the sponsorship of 25 the industry. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C °FR PIN 042- ~.~~

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:37:44 02:37:46 02:37:50 02:37:54 02:37:58 02:38:02 02:38:04 02:38:08 02:38:10 02:38:14 02:38:16 02:38:20 02:38:22 02:38:28 02:38:30 02:38:34 02:38:36 02:38:40 02:38:40 02:38:42 02:38:46 02:38:48 02:38:50 02:38:52 116 1 Q. But through the auspices of the CTR; correct? 2 A. Only as a disbursing agent. 3 I'm sure you know the intricacies of grant 4 funding in universities and clinics, other 5 institutions. The CTR was very familiar with the 6 mechanism of funding and the way to deal with 7 university bursars and other officials, and it was a 8 simple matter for CTR to serve as a disbursing 9 agent. None of the funds used `_or special projects 10 came from the scientific budget. 11 Q. None of the funds and none of the special 12 projects were run through the standard procedures 13 that CTR applied to every other grant or contract; 14 correct? 15 A. The special projects were just what was said, 16 they were -- they were commissioned studies. They 17 were not reviewed by the Scientific Advisory Board. 18 They were done at the request of the companies. 19 Perfectly legitimate. 20 Q. The -- 21 The companies certainly could have solicited 22 these projects and ran them through the SAB just like 23 everybody else where somebody would have to look at 24 them to determine whether they were valid and 25 important; correct? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C~~R H ~~~ ~~~~~~

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:38:54 02:38:56 02:38:56 02:38:58 02:39:00 02:39:04 02:39:06 02:39:08 02:39:14 02:39:16 02:39:16 02:39:18 02:39:20 02:39:22 02:39:22 02:39:22 02:39:24 02:39:28 02:39:30 02:39:32 02:39:32 02:39:34 02:39:36 02:39:38 02:39:40 117 1 A. They could have done that, certainly. 2 Q. But they chose not to. 3 A. They chose not to. 4 Some of the special projects were funded by 5 investigators who were funded by both mechanisms, 6 both as a special projects and as competitive 7 investigator. 8 Q. And CTR never disclosed to the public that it 9 was now serving as basically a procurer of research 10 for the industry -- 11 A. Yes, it did. 12 Q. -- for these special projects. 13 A. You're wrong. 14 Q. When did you disclose that? 15 A. You're in error. 16 Q. When did you disclose that? 17 A. In every publication that resulted from a 18 special project, the accreditation was given "This 19 research was accomplished as a special project of The 20 Council for Tobacco Research." 21 Q. And it's your testimony that every special 22 project was published. 23 A. No, I didn't say that. I said every publication 24 that -- carried the tag line. 25 Q. But not all the public -- STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 E~TR NN 04~'~2.17"

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:39:42 02:39:48 02:39:50 02:39:54 02:39:56 02:39:58 02:40:00 02:40:04 02:40:04 02:40:06 02:40:08 02:40:10 02:40:12 02:40:14 02:40:16 02:40:20 02:40:20 02:40:26 02:40:28 02:40:32 02:40:32 02:40:32 02:40:34 02:40:34 02:40:38 118 1 Not all the research was published; correct? 2 A. Not all the research was published, as far as I 3 know. 4 Q. Let's go back to Dr. Wakeham. 5 A. Is it -- is it essential? 6 Q. I think it's essential -- 7 A. I'm so tired of Dr. Wakeham. 8 Q. I think it's essential for the jury to 9 understand what the industry thought about its own 10 organization, sir. So yes, I do think it's 11 important. 12 A. Stop with what the industry thought. This is 13 Dr. Wakeham having one of his flights of fancy. 14 Q. Yeah, well -- 15 A. They are numerous, as I've told you. 16 Q. You seem to know a great deal about Dr. 17 Wakeham. I can only assume that you know that in 18 part by what you've been told by your attorneys. 19 A. No, sir. I've read a lot of his documents. 20 Q. Have you read all his internal memos, sir? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Have you requested to read all his internal 23 memos? 24 A. No. 25 Q. What you've read are those documents your STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C A/ f 111 1 0 4 2S.4221 !da'

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:40:40 02:40:42 02:40:50 02:40:52 02:40:56 02:40:58 02:41:00 02:41:02 02:41:04 02:41:06 02:41:08 02:41:10 02:41:12 02:41:16 02:41:18 02:41:22 02:41:24 02:41:28 02:41:30 02:41:30 02:41:34 02:41:36 02:41:40 02:41:42 02:41:46 119 1 attorneys have shown you; correct, sir? 2 A. Yes. And what you've snowm me. 3 Q. All right. Now on number three, Dr. Wakeham 4 states, "What are the -- What then are the 5 alternatives? Somehow all caveats and platitudes 6 aside, we must assume that CTR exists for the good of 7 the Industry." Correct? 8 A. Well that's Dr. Wake'~am's commentary and his 9 editorial. 10 Q. Well we've seen other documents that would back 11 that up now; haven't we, sir? 12 MR. MERRITT: I'm sorry. Back what up? 13 MR. O'FALLON: Back up his statement. 14 A. Well that's not true. It's simply not true. 15 And I think if you will refer to our earlier 16 discussion, the function of The Council for Tobacco 17 Research has been to pursue independent investigation 18 of issues related to smoking and health. 19 Q. But not to pursue the truth about smoking and 20 health; correct? 21 A. Science is truth. We've discussed that, too. 22 Q. So you would agree that it's always been one of 23 CTR's aims, stated aims to find out the truth about 24 smoking and health; correct? 25 A. I think it's been CTR's aim to explore the STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R H N 0 4 22 R. 22 R.,

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:41:48 02:41:56 02:42:00 02:42:04 02:42:08 02:42:12 02:42:18 02:42:22 02:42:26 02:42:32 02:42:36 02:42:40 02:42:42 02:42:46 02:42:48 02:42:50 02:42:52 02:42:56 02:43:02 02:43:06 02:43:08 02:43:12 02:43:16 02:43:20 120 1 issues of smoking and health. Our research has 2 gotten more and more fundamental, basic. We are now 3 elaborating disease mechanisms in a fashion that 4 wouldn't have been possible in 1954. But -- 5 Q. Let's -- let's look at Option A. And again, 6 he's talking about several alternatives for CTR; 7 right? 8 A. This is Dr. Wakeham :elling Mr. Cullma.n, his 9 president, how he, Dr. Wakeham, would structure CTR. 10 It had no effect on CTR. None of Dr. Wakeham's 11 protestations or projections have been employed in 12 the direction of CTR. 13 Q. Rationale number one is "Pro bono publico; 14 institutional public relations - the industry is 15 interested in human welfare and alleviation of human 16 suffering; therefore, the public should love and 17 respect us and buy our products." That's clearly one 18 of the underlying public relations motives behind 19 TIRC, the Frank Statement, and CTR; isn't it, sir? 20 A. That's Dr. Wakeham again, far beyond the purview 21 of a research director, I would think. 22 Q. But the fact of the matter is is that the 23 industry has used TIRC and CTR as an integral part of 24 its public relations in order to assure the public 25 that there's no problem with smoking and that people STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 c " I l 1 l I I 1 0• tAF 3'V/r' •V'

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:43:22 02:43:24 02:43:26 02:43:28 02:43:30 02:43:34 02:43:34 02:43:38 02:43:42 02:43:44 02:43:46 02:43:46 02:43:48 02:43:50 02:43:54 02:43:54 02:43:56 02:44:00 02:44:02 02:44:04 02:44:08 02:44:10 02:44:14 02:44:16 02:44:18 121 1 should continue to buy their products; correct? 2 MR. MERRITT: Object to the question. 3 A. That is incorrect. 4 Q. And the fact -- 5 A. CTR does not function as a public relations arm 6 and has not since the inauguration of The Tobacco 7 Institute. 8 Q. And the fact of the matter is they also employ 9 individuals like -- who go before the bodies like the 10 Congress who again tell the public that there's no 11 causal link established between cigarette smoking and 12 cancer; correct? 13 A. I have not said that. I have said there is a 14 link between smoking and health. 15 Q. But you will not say that smoking causes cancer; 16 will you, sir? 17 A. Because I'm not sure of it scientifically. If 18 you want to use cause in the -- in the lay sense as 19 the Surgeon General's office has used it, I will 20 accept that. 21 Q. Okay. Has CTR ever taken out an ad that says we 22 now accept that cigarette smoking causes lung 23 cancer? As we use that term in the lay sense, have 24 they ever taken out that ad? 25 A. That -- that is not -- STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R tI N 0 4 2- R. 23 1

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 122 02:44:18 02:44:20 02:44:26 02:44:28 02:44:32 02:44:36 02:44:40 02:44:44 02:44:50 02:44:52 02:44:58 02:45:00 02:45:04 02:45:06 02:45:08 02:45:12 02:45:12 02:45:18 02:45:24 02:45:32 02:45:34 02:45:36 02:45:38 02:45:38 02:45:40 1 Don't you understand? That is not the function 2 of The Council for Tobacco Research. We are funding 3 20 million dollars of basic biomedical research in 4 a -- in a broad variety of institutions nationwide 5 and worldwide. We are trying to get at the 6 fundamental causes of cancer, cardiovascular disease, 7 a host of other illnesses. We are very focussed now 8 on genetics and other basic problems that are 9 intrinsic to disease processes. And our -- our 10 mission is not one of public relations and has not 11 been since the early days, 40 years ago. 12 Q. Move to strike as non-responsive. 13 A. Oh, that's very responsive. 14 Q. The fact of the matter is you've never taken out 15 an ad that states that we -- 16 A. We are not in the advertising business. 17 Q. Sir, please don't interrupt me. 18 You have never taken out an ad that states point 19 blank we now accept that cigarette smoking causes 20 cancer as defined by the lay public; correct? 21 A. That's your statement. 22 Q. And it's a correct statement. 23 A. It's a correct statement. We are not in the 24 advertising business. 25 Q. You've never taken out a statement or an STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R N N 0 4 2 S3 132

U, C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:45:44 02:45:48 02:45:50 02:45:54 02:45:56 02:45:58 02:46:00 02:46:04 02:46:06 02:46:10 02:46:12 02:46:14 02:46:18 02:46:22 02:46:36 02:46:46 02:46:50 02:46:52 02:46:54 02:46:58 02:47:00 02:47:04 02:47:10 02:47:12 123 1 advertisement that says The Council for Tobacco 2 Research now agrees with the Surgeon General's 3 statement in 1964 that cigarette smoking causes 4 cancer. 5 A. Let's go back to causation, because you -- 6 that's a -- 7 Your question implies t'n!at we know what you mean 8 by cause. 9 Q. I'm using it as used in the 1964 Surgeon 10 General's report. You have never taken out -- The 11 Council for Tobacco Research and for that matter the 12 tobacco industry has never taken out an advertisement 13 that says we now accept the findings of the 1964 14 Surgeon General's report that smoking causes cancer. 15 A. We've never argued with that statement either. 16 Q. Option B as listed on page two of Dr. Wakeham's 17 memo -- Dr. Wakeham's memo is to "Use the CTR program 18 as a means of establishing expert scientific 19 witnesses who will testify on behalf of the Industry 20 in legislative halls, in litigations, at scientific 21 meetings, and before the press and the public;" 22 correct? 23 A. That's what Dr. Wakeham is conjecturing. 24 Q. In fact CTR has advised the industry in 25 litigation; correct? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C ~~~~ ~~~~ 0 4 ~ ~~3

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:47:14 02:47:16 02:47:16 02:47:18 02:47:22 02:47:24 02:47:26 02:47:50 02:47:52 02:47:52 02:47:56 02:47:58 02:48:00 02:48:02 02:48:04 02:48:04 124 1 A. CTR has advised the industry? 2 Q. Yes. Members of CTR have advised the industry 3 in litigation. 4 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to object to the 5 question. 6 A. Not to my knowledge, and certainly not in my 7 tenure. 8 MR. O'FALLON: Let's go off the record. 9 Why don't we take a break for lunch and come back at 10 1:15. 11 MR. MERRITT: 1:15 or 1:50? 12 MR. O'FALLON: 1:15. Is that enough time? 13 MR. MERRITT: Uh-huh, I think so. 14 THE REPORTER: Off the record, please. 15 (Luncheon recess taken at 12:12 o'clock 16 p.m.) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 l.r 1 R i t i`f 0'°T 'n.~} 34

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:48:06 02:48:06 02:48:06 02:48:16 02:48:20 02:48:24 02:48:26 02:48:28 02:48:30 02:48:32 02:48:36 02:48:42 02:48:46 02:48:50 02:48:54 02:48:58 02:49:02 02:49:04 02:49:06 02:49:10 02:49:12 02:49:14 02:49:18 02:49:22 02:49:26 125 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 (Deposition reconvened at 1:25 o'clock 3 p.m.) 4 BY MR. O'FALLON: 5 Q. Doctor, Dr. Wakeham's memo was talking a bit 6 about research done by CTR on behalf of the industry, 7 and you and I have had some discussions about special 8 projects. Is it your understanding that special 9 projects started'in 1966? 10 A. I think that would be about right. 11 Q. And then they ran through 1990? 12 A. After I got to the CTR, I think there were two 13 or three still outstanding, and they were just funded 14 out as agreed upon. 15 Q. Is it your understanding that during that, I 16 guess, 24-year period, that approximately 17 and a 17 half million dollars were spent on special projects? 18 A. I've never seen an exact number, but I -- I 19 would expect it would be in that range. 20 Q. I want to turn for a second back to Dr. 21 Wakeham's memo and back to a statement that we've 22 talked about before. And again it's the stated 23 purpose cr stated objective or purpose of CTR. And 24 he states that one of the stated objectives is, 25 quote, "To aid and assist research into tobacco use STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Ci R H1 -S 0"'T '.~++' 35-

C O N F I D E N^ I A L 126 02:49:30 02:49:32 02:49:34 02:49:38 02:49:40 02:50:04 02:50:06 02:50:08 02:50:10 02:50:20 02:50:24 02:50:26 02:50:28 02:50:30 02:50:34 02:50:36 02:50:40 02:50:42 02:50:44 02:50:46 02:50:48 02:50:48 02:50:52 02:50:54 1 and health, and to make available to the public 2 factual information on this sub;ect." 3 Would you agree that that •aas the original 4 purpose of CTR? 5 A. I think that's fair. That was not the way it 6 was stated, but I think that's fair. 7 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit _152 was marked 8 for identification.) 9 BY MR. O'FALLON: 10 Q. Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1152 is a document Bates 11 stamp numbered CTR MN 11311164 through 66. It's 12 entitled "FOR: TOBACCO INDUSTRY RESEARCH COMMITTEE, 13 FOR RELEASE IN YEAR-END EDITIONS BUT NOT BEFORE 14 DECEMBER 27TH, 1954." 15 Have you seen this before? 16 A. No, I don't believe so, Mr. O'Fallon. 17 Q. Okay. On the side it indicates that it's from 18 Hill & Knowlton; correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And again Hill & Knowlton was the public 21 relations firm that represented the TIRC early on; 22 correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. and it states that it's a statement by Timothy 25 V. Hartnett, Chairman, Tobacco Industry Research s STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 L.r i0R i f N 0422S.4136

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:50:54 02:50:56 02:51:00 02:51:04 02:51:06 02:51:10 02:51:16 02:51:16 02:51:18 02:51:22 02:51:24 02:51:28 02:51:30 02:51:34 02:51:36 02:51:38 02:51:40 02:51:40 02:51:44 02:51:48 02:51:50 02:51:50 02:51:56 02:52:02 02:52:10 127 1 Committee; correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. He states that "By the end of 1954, the 4 Tobacco -- Tobacco Industry Research Committee will 5 have approved about a quarter of a million dollars 6 for specific scientific research projects into public 7 health problems. During the early part of 1955, this 8 amount should be at least matched again in some 9 grants -- in more grants actually made to doctors and 10 scientists, hospitals and research institutions." 11 He then goes on to state, quote, "This is one 12 measure of the strides made by the Tobacco Industry 13 Research Committee toward fulfilling its pledge to 14 the American people made last January. That pledge 15 was to sponsor independent scientific research into 16 tobacco use and felt and to make the facts known to 17 the public." Correct? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. So one of the statements that CTR made early on, 20 this is 1954, was that it would make the facts known 21 to the public; correct? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. I'd like to next hand you a document that's been 24 previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1090. 25 I'm sorry. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 t.. CTR HN 042-c-437"'

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:52:12 02: 52: 18 02:52:22 02:52:26 02:52:28 02:52:30 02:52:30 02:52:34 02:52:34 02:52:40 02:52:44 02:52:50 02:52:58 02:53:00 02:53:10 02:53:10 02:53:12 02:53:14 02:53:14 02:53:16 02:53:18 02:53:18 02:53:20 02:53:22 02:53:26 128 1 This is a document that's Bates stamp numbered 2 501932947 through 2968. It's entitled on the front 3 of it "SURVEY OF CANCER RESEARCH with emphasis upon 4 POSSIBLE CARCINOGENS FROM TOBACCO" by Claude E. 5 Teague, Jr., 2 February 1953." 6 Have you seen this document previously? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. Do you know who Mr. -- Dr. Teague is? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. This is a document that was produced by R. J. 11 Reynolds, and I would ask you to assume with me that 12 Dr. Teague is in fact a Ph.D. scientist. 13 I'd like you to look at the third page of the 14 document, but which has a 2 at the bottom of the 15 page, and it's last three Bates numbers 949. Do you 16 see that? 17 A. That is now marked page two. 18 Q. At the bottom. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Then the last three Bates numbers there along 21 the side are -- 22 A. 949. 23 Q. Okay. I'd like you to look at number one, 24 "OBJECT." He states that "The object of this report 25 is to give a broad, general survey of cancer research STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CT R r"! N 0 42 c. 4. 3 8

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:53:28 02:53:30 02:53:32 02:53:42 02:53:54 02:53:56 02:53:56 02:53:56 02:54:00 02:54:02 02:54:04 02:54:08 02:54:10 02:54:14 02:54:18 02:54:22 02:54:24 02:54:28 02:54:32 02:54:32 02:54:36 02:54:42 02:54:44 02:54:48 02:54:50 129 1 with emphasis on studies actually or potentially 2 related to carcinogens from :obacco." Correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Then I'd like you to flip back to 963. Number 5 6 7 8 9 10 at the bottom of the page, 14. Do you see that? A. All right. Q. Do you see that page? A. Yes. Q. I'd like you to read under Roman numeral number V., "CONCLUSIONS." He states, "The increased 11 incidence of cancer of the lung in man which has 12 occurred during the last half century is probably due 13 to new or increased contact wit:^h carcinogenic 14 stimuli. The closely parallel increase in cigarette 15 smoking has led to the suspicion that tobacco smoking 16 is an important etiological factor in the induction 17 of primary cancer of the lung. Studies of clinical 18 data tend to confirm the relationship between heavy 19 and prolonged tobacco smoking and incidence of cancer 20 of the lung." 21 Would you agree that R. J. Reynolds, who stated 22 in 1954 that it would undertake people's health as a 23 basic responsibility, had a duty to tell the public 24 that studies of clinical data tend to confirm the 25 relationship between heavy and prolonged tobacco STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 r'" T! 1 ! I 1 1 04E+m 93d'

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:54:52 02:54:56 02:55:02 02:55:08 02:55:12 02:55:16 02:55:20 02:55:22 02:55:26 02:55:30 02:55:34 02:55:38 02:55:42 02:55:42 02:55:44 02:55:46 02:55:48 02:55:52 02:55:56 02:56:00 02:56:04 02:56:06 02:56:10 02:56:16 130 1 smoking and incidence of cancer of the lu ng? 2 MR. MERRITT: Object to the que stion. - Thi s was - 3 A. 4 This is very well stated and very ea rly on. 5 1953, I think we -- we were just seeing t he emerging 6 data. And he has summarized it very well , that th~-,re 7 is a -- a parallel increase in the amount of smoking 8 and -- and primary lung cancer, and it ju st 9 reinforces the risk factor of smoking. 10 Q. However, when the industry took out its Frank 11 Statement, it stated point blank that we believe the 12 products we make are not injurious to hea lth. This 13 is fundamentally inconsistent with that s tatement; 14 correct? 15 A. Well I think the statement -- 16 MR. MERRITT: Let me just -- 17 I'm going to object to the question . Go ahead. 18 A. I think the statement was made by t he executives 19 who came together to form the research c ommittee. 20 Here is a scientist who has examined the literature. 21 He -- this is not work he's reporting fo r himself, he 22 is summarizing conclusions from his revi ew of the 23 literature. And I haven't read this clo sely, as you 24 are well aware, but is this the sort of white paper 25 that reflects thinking at the time. It doesn't say STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 i.r TR i 1 f 7 0`T 2er* 40

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:56:20 02:56:26 02:56:30 02:56:34 02:56:36 02:56:38 02:56:40 02:56:44 02:56:46 02:56:48 02:56:50 02:56:54 02:56:58 02:56:58 02:57:00 02:57:00 02:57:02 02:57:06 02:57:08 02:57:10 02:57:12 02:57:16 02:57:16 02:57:18 02:57:18 131 1 that smoking causes lung cancer, it simply says 2 there's a relationship. And I think that's good 3 insight, and I think his statements are appropriate. 4 Q. Don't you agree that it's fundamentally 5 misleading for a tobacco company to make a statement 6 to the public that they believe the products they 7 make are not injurious to health when their own 8 scientists, those people best able to assess the 9 problem, are telling them the opposite, which is that 10 the studies tend to confirm -- 11 MR. MERRITT: Well I'm going to object. 12 Q. -- the relationship between prolonged tobacco 13 smoking and incidence of cancer of the lung? 14 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to object as 15 lacking in foundation. There's no -- you say that -- 16 Are you representing that this is an R. J. 17 Reynolds scientist? 18 MR. O'FALLON: Yes. 19 A. I don't -- 20 I don't find anything inconsistent there. As 21 I've said, I think the executives were not convinced 22 at that point in time, nor were many people in 23 medicine, -- 24 Q. Don't you believe -- 25 A. -- that -- STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR 9 Hlryl `/r' a 2'" Y ! 1

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:57:20 02:57:22 02:57:28 02:57:30 02:57:34 02:57:36 02:57:40 02:57:42 02:57:44 02:57:46 02:57:48 02: 57: 52 02:57:54 02:58:00 02:58:06 02:58:10 02:58:14 02:58:16 02:58:18 02:58:20 02:58:24 02:58:26 02:58:30 02:58:32 02:58:34 132 1 Q. I'm sorry. 2 A. -- that there was a -- a causal relationship 3 between smoking and lung cancer. The epidemiologic 4 data we were just beginning to accumulate. 5 As Dr. Teague points out here, they were looking 6 back over 50 years, during which time there had been 7 an increase in lung cancer, at least in diagnosed 8 lung cancer, and there had been an increase in 9 smoking. 10 1 would point out that there are many flaws in 11 looking at retrospective data, particularly with 12 relation to cause of death. Cause of death was not 13 well established in -- in most instances in this 14 country until the last half century. Many people 15 early on who died of pneumonia as a diagnosis may 16 well have had lung cancer. So the data are -- are 17 soft. But clearly Dr. Teague was looking at new -- 18 new material coming in that was suggestive of a 19 relationship. 20 I don't think it's inconsistent that the 21 industry executives did not necessarily accept this. 22 Many people in the medical community and scientific 23 community didn't accept this at that point in time. 24 Q. Don't you think that a company that states that 25 they accept an interest in people's health as a basic STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 d' I  S 1 IN 0 4' 2- ~II' 4 Y1PC

C O N F I D E N T I A L 02:58:38 02:58:40 02:58:42 02:58:46 02:58:48 02:58:48 02:58:52 02:58:54 02:58:58 02:59:02 02:59:06 02:59:08 02:59:12 02:59:14 02:59:16 02:59:20 02:59:22 02:59:28 02:59:32 02:59:36 02:59:38 02:59:42 02:59:50 02:59:52 02:59:54 133 1 responsibility, paramount to every other 2 consideration in their business, has a duty to make 3 it known to the public that their own internal 4 analysis indicates and tends to confirm the 5 relationship between cigarette smoking and lung 6 cancer? 7 MR. MERRITT: Object to the question. 8 A. I don't know about the duty, responsibility, but 9 what Dr. Teague is addressing here is information 10 that was -- was generally available; so the companies 11 were not withholding anything from the public, the 12 information was already in the -- in the medical 13 literature. 14 Q. They were withholding from the public their own 15 analysis of that evidence and replacing it with 16 statements that are fundamentally inconsistent with 17 their own analysis; ccrrect? 18 A. No. That's your editorial. They asked for this 19 report, I'm sure, from Dr. Teague. I think it's -- 20 What little I've read of it, it looks like he 21 put it together very well. And it addresses his 22 analysis of work done by others, so all of this was 23 in the public domain. There were no secrets being 24 withheld. 25 Q. But in the Frank Statement, the cigarette STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Mr' l  1 l ! l 4! 0/Iqi M' 43

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:00:00 03:00:04 03:00:06 03:00:08 03:00:10 03:00:12 03:00:12 03:00:14 03:00:18 03:00:20 03:00:22 03:00:24 03:00:26 03:00:30 03:00:34 03:00:36 03:00:40 03:00:42 03:00:46 03:00:48 03:00:50 03:00:52 03:00:56 03:00:58 134 1 companies are basically saying that the public 2 literature that that's been reported is inconclusive, 3 whereas their own expert is saying that it tends to 4 support the relationship; correct? 5 A. No, no. He -- he is not making a conclusion 6 here. 7 Q. Well -- 8 A. He's making an observation that there's a 9 parallel increase in smoking and lung cancer. 10 Q. He doesn't call it an observation, he calls it a 11 conclusion; doesn't he, sir? 12 A. No. 13 Q. It's under Roman Numeral V, "CONCLUSIONS;" 14 correct? 15 A. Well it's conclusions to his investigation. But 16 he -- he merely says the parallel increase in 17 cigarette smoking has led to this suspicion that 18 tobacco smoking is an important etiologic factor in 19 the induction of primary cancer of the lung. 20 Q. But he then goes on to say that studies of 21 clinical data tend to confirm the relationship 22 between heavy and prolonged tobacco smoking and 23 incidence of cancer of the lung; correct? 24 A. Tend to confirm. That's -- that's an 25 observation, it's not a conclusion. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 ~.r TR f i i 7 0"`f' 294"°'f

( ', C O N F I D E N^ I A L 03:01:00 03:01:02 03:01:04 03:01:06 03:01:08 03:01:08 03:01:10 03:01:16 03:01:22 03:01:26 03:01:28 03:01:30 03:01:34 03:01:36 03:01:40 03:01:48 03:01:50 03:01:58 03:02:02 03:02:04 03:02:10 03:02:10 03:02:18 03:02:26 135 1 Q. It's listed under "CONCLUS:ONS" and he states it 2 as a conclusion. 3 A. Well it's a conclusion of his paper. 4 Q. It's a conclusion of his analysis of the data; 5 correct? 6 A. Uh-huh. 7 THE REPORTER: Your answer? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 Q. You would agree that once :.he tobacco 10 manufacturers decided that the causal connection 11 between lung cancer and cigaretz~e smoking was proven, 12 they had a duty to disclose tha= to the general 13 public; correct? 14 A. Well we're back to a discussion of causal 15 relationship. And there are many factors that have 16 been incriminated with lung cancer, not the least of 17 which is a genetic tendency, so I can't comment on a 18 causal relationship and I certainly can't comment on 19 the duty of the corporations. 20 Q. Is it your testimony that epidemiological 21 studies do not demonstrate a cause-and-effect 22 relationship? 23 MR. MERRITT: Object to the form. 24 A. Epidemiologic studies will indicate a link or 25 association of factors but frequently do not address STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 4F TR ! l 1 yI 0l~ue 9 4 6K.•

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 136 03:02:30 03:02:38 03:02:42 03:02:46 03:02:46 03:02:50 03:02:52 03:02:54 03:02:56 03:02:58 03:03:00 03:03:00 03:03:02 03:03:08 03:03:10 03:03:12 03:03:14 03:03:18 03:03:20 03:03:24 03:03:28 03:03:30 03:03:32 03:03:34 03:03:36 1 all of the factors involved and do not conclusively 2 prove a causal relationship. If we speak of cause 3 and effect scientifically, we have to invoke the 4 agent that will consistently produce a given disease 5 or defect. 6 Q. And you would agree that for the past 90 years 7 there's been an ongoing human study on cigarette 8 smoking; correct, sir? 9 A. Little longer than that. 10 Q. But the cigarettes were really first mass 11 produced at the turn of the century; correct? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. And the evidence that we have back from those 14 ongoing human studies, these epidemiological studies, 15 overwhelmingly demonstrate a connection between 16 cigarette smoking and lung cancer, correct? 17 A. No. 18 Why is it that 93 percent of smokers do not get 19 any pulmonary disease? 20 Q. Not everybody exposed to asbestos gets 21 asbestosis. That doesn't mean there isn't a causal 22 connection; right, sir? 23 A. Causal in the lay sense, if you wish, but it 24 does not demonstrate conclusively that -- that 25 smoking per se causes -- STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C! 1 Z I ! l~I 04EI~ Iu1'  6

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:03:40 03:03:44 03:03:50 03:03:54 03:04:00 03:04:02 03:04:04 03:04:08 03:04:14 03:04:18 03:04:20 03:04:20 03:04:22 03:04:24 03:04:24 03:04:26 03:04:26 03:04:30 03:04:34 03:04:36 03:04:42 03:04:46 03:04:50 03:04:58 03:05:02 137 1 We may turn up here 20, 30 years down the road 2 and find that there is a definite gene in certain 3 individuals that will lead to lung cancer if indeed 4 other inciting factors are introduced such as smog, 5 other air pollutants, radon, asbestos, cigarette 6 smoke, whatever. 7 Q. The great majority of people who get lung cancer 8 in this country have been smokers; correct? 9 A. The, yeah, majority. But 20 percent of people 10 who die of lung cancer have never been smokers. 11 Q. And 80 percent of people who die of lung cancer 12 have been smokers; correct? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. But until there's a hundred percent of people 15 who die of lung cancer -- 16 A. No. 17 Q. -- that are smokers, you aren't going to accept 18 a cause-and-effect relationship; isn't that true? 19 A. Neither part of your question is true. It isn't 20 true that I won't accept it. I accept a causal 21 relationship in the sense of -- in the lay sense that 22 cigarette smoking is a risk factor for lung cancer. 23 It's also a risk factor for cardiovascular 24 for emphysema, for a variety of illnesses. disease, 25 Q. CTR continued through the 'S0s to contend that STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR MN 042947

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:05:04 03:05:06 03 : 05 : 10 03:05:14 03:05:14 03:05:18 03:05:22 03:05:30 03:05:32 03:05:32 03:05:36 03:05:42 03:05:44 03:05:46 03:05:48 03:05:50 03:05:52 03:05:52 03:05:54 03:05:58 03:06:00 03:06:06 03:06:08 03:06:10 03:06:16 138 1 there was no causal connection proven between 2 cigarette smoking and lung cancer; correct? 3 A. That's correct. And they were pointing out 4 exactly what we've been talking about, the definition 5 of cause. 6 Q. I'd like to show you what's been marked as 7 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 304. This is a document Bates 8 stamp numbered 105408490 through 499. 9 Have you seen this document previously? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. This is entitled a "REPORT ON VISIT TO U.S.A. 12 AND CANADA, 17th APRIL TO 12th MAY 1958" by H. R. 13 Bentley, D. G. I. Felton and W. W. Reid. Are you 14 familiar with any of those individuals? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. Are you familiar with a company known as the 17 British-American Tobacco Company? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. This is a document that was produced by the 20 British-American Tobacco Company. 21 I'd like you to look on the second page under 22 "ITINERARY." Do you see where it sets out 23 various people they visited on this trip? 24 A. Looks like a whirlwind tour. the 25 Q. They had four visits with people from the STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Cf fti 1 f N 042948

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:06:20 03:06:24 03:06:26 03:06:26 03:06:32 03:06:36 03:06:40 03:06:46 03:06:46 03:06:50 03:06:54 03:06:54 03:06:58 03:06:58 03:07:00 03:07:00 03:07:02 03:07:04 03:07:04 03:07:08 03:07:08 03:07:10 03:07:14 03:07:14 139 1 Tobacco Industry Research Co-nmitt ee; correct? 2 MR. MERRITT: Are you a sking whether that's 3 what this document sa s? y 4 MR. O'FALLON: Correct. 5 A. I see visits with Dr. Little , Dr. Hockett, and 6 with the Scientific Advisory Boar d of TIRC. 7 Q. Looks like the first visit w as actually on April 8 the 28th with Mr. Hoyt and Mr. Th ompson; correct? 9 A. Yes, I see that. 10 Q. Then the next visit was on M ay 5th with the 11 Industry Technical Committee of T IRC, Richmond; 12 correct? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. And that's with Mr. Hanmer, -- 15 Who was he at the time? 16 A. I have no idea. 17 Q. Okay. 18 -- Mr. Hoyt and Dr. Hockett; orrect? 19 A C t orrec . . 20 Q. And Dr. Hockett was who at t hat time? 21 A. Dr. Hockett was the assistan t scientific 22 di rector. 23 Q. Okay. Then on May 8th there was a visit with 24 Dr. Little and again Dr. Hockett; correct? 25 A. Correct. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 (..~' / a R l I l ) 0/ 2..~' l ..a`

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 03:07:16 03:07:20 03:07:20 03:07:24 03:07:26 03:07:28 03:07:38 03:07:40 03:07:48 03:07:48 03:07:48 03:07:50 03:07:54 03:07:54 03:08:00 03:08:02 03:08:04 03:08:06 03:08:08 03:08:10 03:08:14 03:08:16 03:08:20 03:08:22 03:08:26 140 1 Q. Dr. Little at that time was the scientific 2 director. 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. And finally on the -- on May the 10th, a visit 5 with the Scientific Advisory Board of TIRC; correct? 6 A. I see that. 7 Q. Look at the next page. Under the 8"INTRODUCTION," these gentle.^..en indicate that from 9 their contact in the U.S.A. and Canada, they sought 10 information on numerous subject matters; correct? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. One of those subject matters was the extent to 13 which it is accepted that cigarette smoke causes lung 14 cancer; correct? 15 A. Well he goes on to define causation. 16 Q. Right. And I'll get right to that. 17 You're looking under the subsection called 18 "'CAUSATION' OF LUNG CANCER;" correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. It states, "With one exception, parenthetical, 21 H.S.N. Greene, end parenthetical, the individuals 22 whom we met believed that smoking causes lung cancer 23 if by, quote, causation, end quote, we mean any chain 24 of events which leads finally to lung cancer and 25 which involves smoking as an indispensable link." STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 t.r 1= i'~a ~ ~ i~~ 4 ~i" ' d." 5ti..ri CTR

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:08:28 03:08:30 03:08:32 03:08:34 03:08:34 03:08:36 03:08:40 03:08:42 03:08:44 03:08:48 03:08:50 03:08:52 03:08:54 03:08:54 03:08:56 03:09:00 03:09:04 03:09:08 03:09:12 03:09:16 03:09:20 03:09:22 03:09:26 03:09:26 03:09:46 141 1 Correct? 2 A. Yes, that's what it says. I would disagree with 3 part of that. 4 Q. But that's what the document says; correct? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. And this is based on discussions with numerous 7 people throughout the tobacco industry, including 8 four visits with people from the TIRC; correct? 9 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to object to that 10 as calling for a conclusion. I don't know how you 11 think that Dr. Glenn is going to know what this thing 12 is based on. 13 Q. Certainly what this appears to be; correct, 14 doctor? 15 A. I'm not sure what your question is now. 16 Q. Sure. My question is that these conclusions 17 were made after visits with numerous people in the 18 American tobacco industry, including four visits with 19 the -- with individuals from the TIRC. 20 A. As according to this agenda, which I accept. 21 Q. It says, quote, "In the U.S.A. only Berkson, 22 apparently, is now prepared to doubt the statistical 23 evidence and his reason -- reasoning is nowhere 24 thought to be sound." Correct? 25 A. That's what it says. But I'm not familiar with STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 t..r f f"4 i f N 04,2..~* 5-1

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:09:48 03:09:50 03:09:54 03:09:56 03:10:08 03:10:08 03:10:08 03:10:14 03:10:16 03:10:18 03:10:22 03:10:26 03:10:28 03:10:30 03:10:32 03:10:36 03:10:42 03:10:48 03:10:52 03:10:54 03:10:58 03:11:00 03:11:02 03:11:06 03:11:08 142 1 Dr. Berkson. 2 Q. Let's look to the eighth page of this document, 3 or what's marked at the top page eight, last three 4 Bates numbers are 498. 5 Do you see that, where it says "CONCLUSIONS" at 6 the bottom? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. "CONCLUSIONS." It says "1. Although there 9 remains some doubt as to the proportion of the total 10 lung cancer mortality which can fairly be attributed 11 to smoking, scientific opinion in U.S.A. does not now 12 seriously doubt that the statistical correlation is 13 real and reflects a cause and effect relationship." 14 Correct? 15 A. That's correct, that's what it says. 16 Q. At this time TIRC is still performing a public 17 relations fLnction; correct? 18 A. This is '58. Yes. 19 Q. CTR -- 20 I mean TIRC at this time did not take out an 21 advertisement or make a statement that said that they 22 believed that smoking causes lung cancer if by 23 causation we mean any chain of events which leads 24 finally to lung cancer and which involves smoking as 25 an indispensable link; correct? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 ~ T R r"- 11 N 0 4 " - 9.55 '221

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 03:11:12 03:11:16 03:11:18 03:11:22 03:11:26 03:11:30 03:11:34 03:11:40 03:11:42 03:11:48 03:11:48 03:11:52 03:11:54 03:11:56 03:11:58 03:12:02 03:12:02 03:12:04 03:12:06 03:12:08 03:12:10 03:12:12 03:12:30 03:12:50 03:12:52 143 1 A. They did not take out an ad because this is an 2 interpretation by many dif"ferent scientists and 3 observers of data that were then beginning to 4 accumulate. I would find fault with -- with some of 5 this. I don't know who Dr. Berkson is, but Dr. 6 Huebner I know and his name is misspelled, so I -- 7 you know, when they -- I knew Harry Greene very well, 8 a wonderful man. I can't accept that this document 9 reflects anything but the bias of the three 10 individuals named on the -- on the frontispiece. 11 Q. And you understand that the three individuals 12 named on the frontispiece are employees of 13 British-American Tobacco Company; correct? 14 A. I do because you have told me that. 15 Q. Okay. Do you understand that British-American 16 Tobacco Company wholly owns the Brown & Williamson 17 Tobacco Company? 18 A. Yes, sir. I'm well aware of that. 19 Q. Okay. So you're well aware that these are 20 tobacco men making statements about a serious disease 21 relating to their business; correct? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. I'd like to show vou a document dated June 4th 24 of 1957. I think I've actually got to mark this. 25 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1153 was marked STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 k_. CTR MN 042-953

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:12:54 03:12:58 03:13:06 03:13:08 03:13:10 03:13:14 03 :13 :14 03 :13 :14 03 :13 :16 03:13:20 03:13:20 03:13:22 03:13:26 03:13:26 03:13:26 03:13:28 03:13:32 03:13:34 03:13:36 03:13:38 03:13:42 03:13:42 03:13:48 03:13:52 144 1 for identification.) 2 BY MR. O'FALLON: 3 Q. Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1153 is a document Bates 4 stamp numbered CTR MN 11313128. Again, this is a 5 press release put out by Hill & Knowlton; correct? 6 A. Appears to be. 7 Q. And it's put out on behalf of the Tobacco 8 Industry Research Committee; correct? 9 A. Appears to be. 10 Q. This is a statement that's going to be released 11 to the public for public consumption; correct? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. And again the title of it is "HARTNETT SAYS 14 STATISTICS DO NOT ESTABLISH CAUSES;" correct? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. And -- 17 A. And I -- and I subscribe to that. 18 Q. And the general gist of this press release is, 19 again, that it's not proven that lung cancer causes 20 disease; correct? 21 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to object to the 22 question. 23 A. Would you restate the question? 24 Q. The general gist of this press release is, 25 again, that it is not proven that lung cancer causes STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T ~' ~N 0* 4 2' 9 5. 0 4,

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:13:52 03:13:52 03:13:54 03:13:56 03:13:58 03:14:00 03:14:04 03:14:04 03:14:10 03:14:12 03:14:16 03:14:20 03:14:20 03:14:24 03:14:26 03:14:28 03:14:28 03:14:30 03:14:32 03:14:36 03:14:38 03:14:40 03:14:42 03:14:42 03:14:42 145 1 disease; correct? 2 MR. MERRITT: Same objection. 3 A. Well lung cancer causes disease? I'd certainly 4 go along with that. 5 Q. Well how about -- I'm sorry, you're right. 6 The gist of this press release is, again, that 7 it has not been proven that smoking causes lung 8 cancer or disease; correct? 9 A. It -- Dr. -- Mr. Hartnett's statement is that a 10 statistical study of the sort accomplished by Hammond 11 and Horn does not prove a causal relationship in the 12 scientific sense. That's what he's saying and that's 13 what many people have said. 14 Q. It doesn't say anywhere down there "scientific 15 sense;" does it, sir? 16 A. No, but that's what he's -- that's what he's 17 addressing. 18 Q. Well how do you know that, sir? 19 A. Because I can read. 20 Q. Well he's addressing, again in a document that's 21 intended to be read predominantly by 22 non-scientists, -- 23 A. Well you're playing with words. 24 Q. -- he's stating -- 25 Well -- STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R rLIN 0 4 12W 9W 5 55

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:14:44 03:14:46 03:14:48 03:14:50 03:14:52 03:14:54 03:14:58 03:15:00 03:15:02 03:15:04 03:15:12 03:15:16 03:15:18 03:15:22 03:15:24 03:15:28 03:15:32 03:15:36 03:15:40 03:15:42 03:15:44 03:15:48 03:15:52 03:15:56 03:15:58 146 1 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to -- 2 Q. -- let's not -- wait. Let me finish my 3 question. Okay? I'll just ask you that you let me 4 finish my question. 5 He's saying, in a document intended to be 6 distributed to the public, the vast majority of whom 7 are not scientists, simply that statistics will not 8 prove cause-and-effect relationships; correct? 9 MR. MERRITT: Object to the question as 10 lack of foundation. 11 A. Well if I can be allowed to read from the 12 document, he says -- very fair statement -- quote, 13 "Statistical studies often have an important role in 14 research. Their function, however, is to suggest 15 possible areas for further and more definitive 16 investigation using experimental techniques. They do 17 not prove cause-and-effect relationships," unquote. 18 Q. And the gist of that statement is -- 19 A. There's no gist. It's very baldly stated that 20 statistical studies suggest areas for further 21 definitive investigation using experimental 22 techniques and they do not prove cause-and-effect 23 relationships in the scientific sense. 24 Q. So in 1957, when TIRC wants to make a statement 25 to the public, it says there's no cause-and-effect STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R Hl N 0 4 22 9- -5 6

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:16:00 03:16:04 03:16:06 03:16:08 03:16:08 03 :16 :12 03:16:16 03:16:20 03:16:24 03:16:24 03:16:26 03:16:28 03:16:28 03:16:32 03:16:34 03:16:38 03:16:40 03:16:48 03:16:48 03:16:50 03:16:54 03:16:56 03:17:00 03:17:02 03:17:06 147 1 relationship proven, yet when it talks to 2 individuals, other scientists from the tobacco 3 industry, it concedes that there's a causal link. 4 MR. MERRITT: Object to the question. Lack 5 of foundation. 6 A. I don't know what they conceded. Everybody by 7 that -- by -- by this time, by the late '50s, were 8 beginning to suspect the relationship between smoking 9 as a risk factor and the occurrence of lung cancer. 10 Q. The word "risk factor" is nowhere in this 11 statement; is it, sir? 12 A. In what statement? 13 Q. The statement I have in front of you, 14 Plaintiffs' Exhibit -- what's the exhibit number? 15 A. 1153. 16 Q. Nowhere in this statement does the Tobacco 17 Industry Research Committee concede that smoking is a 18 risk factor for lung cancer. 19 A. I don't see -- 20 I don't see the words "risk factor" here. But 21 my -- my statement remains the same. 22 Q. They do not concede anywhere here that smoking 23 is a risk factor for lung cancer; correct? 24 A. Everybody knew it. 25 Q. And yet these folks felt the need to dispute it. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR HN ~442-11.35-7

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:17:06 03:17:08 03:17:14 03:17:16 03:17:18 03:17:20 03:17:22 03:17:24 03:17:26 03:17:50 03:17:52 03:17:52 03:17:56 03:18:04 03:18:08 03:18:18 03:18:22 148 1 A. It's not -- 2 This is not disputation, this is a statement of 3 fact. Statistical studies are very useful in their 4 way, but they don't prove cause and effect in the 5 scientific sense. 6 Q. The basic gist is they're trying to cast doubt 7 upon any causal relationship between smoking and lung 8 cancer; isn't that true? 9 A. I don't accept that. No, I don't accept that. 10 I think this is a -- a very thoughtful statement. 11 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1154 was marked 12 for identification.) 13 BY MR. O'FALLON: 14 Q. Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1154 is a document Bates 15 stamp numbered CTR MN 11313243 through 44. Again, 16 this is another Hill & Knowlton press release; 17 correct? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. And it's a press release on behalf of the 20 Tobacco Industry Research Committee; correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. It's for release Monday, July 15th of 1957; 23 correct? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. It says "SCIENTIST COMMENTS ON BENZPYRENE STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR HN 04~~~a

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:18:22 03:18:24 03:18:26 03:18:30 03:18:34 03:18:34 03:18:38 03:18:42 03:18:44 03:18:46 03:18:48 03:18:50 03:18:52 03:18:56 03:18:56 03:19:02 03:19:04 03:19:04 03:19:04 03:19:06 03:19:08 03:19:12 03:19:14 03:19:18 03:19:18 149 1 REPORT;" correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. This states, quote, "The following statements -- 4 The following statement was made by Dr. Robert C. 5 Hockett, associate scientific director of the Tobacco 6 Industry Research Committee, in connection with 7 today's news reports from Washington quoting the U.S. 8 Surgeon General as saying benzpyrene had been found 9 in cigarette smoke." 10 He states, quote, "The question of the presence 11 of benzpyrene in cigarette smoke has been under 12 investigation for a number of years, and it has been 13 widely discounted as a significant factor in 14 connection with lung cancer by scientists familiar 15 with the work. 16 "There are a number of reasons for this. 17 "Scientists have not actually succeeded in 18 isolating the substance from tobacco smoke." 19 Correct? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. You would agree that if the tobacco industry had 22 in their own files proof that benzpyrene occurred in 23 cigarette smoke, that this statement made on behalf 24 of them and their industry representatives would be a 25 misrepresentation; correct? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R 1' - I N 0 42" 9 55 9.

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:19:20 03:19:22 03:19:24 03:19:28 03:19:30 03:19:32 03:19:34 03:19:36 03:19:36 03:19:38 03:19:40 03:19:42 03:19:46 03:19:48 03:19:52 03:19:54 03:19:56 03:20:00 03:20:00 03:20:02 03:20:04 03:20:06 03:20:12 03:20:14 03:20:14 150 1 MR. MERRITT: Object to the question. 2 A. No, I don't agree with that. 3 Q. You would agree that, at the very least, if the 4 tobacco industry had in its own files evidence that 5 confirmed the presence of benzpyrene in tobacco 6 smoke, it had a duty to disclose that fact to the 7 public. 8 A. Benzpyrene does occur in tobacco smoke, and 9 that's well known. 10 Q. But they stand -- 11 A. But I would call your attention to your own 12 document where Dr. Ernst Wynder of the Sloan- 13 Kettering Institute, who is a leading proponent of 14 the cigarette theory of lung cancer, reported that 15 "The benzpyrene content of tobacco tar is not more 16 than 2 million -- 2 parts per million which, 17 according to our experiments, is not sufficient to 18 produce the type of activity noted in our animals 19 painted with tobacco tar." 20 Q. He also -- 21 A. In other words, the benzpyrene is there, but it 22 may or may not be causing. We still don't know what 23 the etiologic factors may be, what the -- what all 24 the carcinogens might be in tobacco smoke or in many 25 other substances. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C I' / \ HN 'M' !' 2/~!'- •iN W'

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:20:20 03:20:22 03:20:24 03:20:26 03:20:34 03:20:36 03:20:40 03:20:42 03:20:44 03:20:44 03:20:46 03:20:50 03:20:50 03:20:56 03:20:58 03:21:00 03:21:00 03:21:02 03:21:08 03:21:10 03:21:12 03:21:12 03:21:14 03:21:16 03:21:20 151 1 Q. Doctor, does this public statement state, quote, 2 "Scientists have not actually succeeded in isolating 3 the substance from tobacco smoke?" Doesn't it state 4 that? 5 A. "Scientists have not actually succeeded in 6 isolating the substance from tobacco smoke." 7 Q. So that's a point-blank denial that scientists 8 have succeeded in isolating benzpyrene from tobacco 9 smoke; correct? 10 A. Correct. But we know now that there is 11 benzpyrene in tobacco smoke. 12 Q. I'm asking about 1957. 13 A. I can't tell you what -- 14 In 1957 I was winning the Korean War for you. 15 Q. Well sir, unless I have my history right -- 16 wrong, in 1957 you were probably back from the Korean 17 War. 18 A. Well I was. 19 Q. And, you know, all of my uncles also fought in 20 the war. I don't think that that's really relevant 21 to what we're talking about right here. 22 A. Well -- 23 Q. The fact of the matter is, sir, is that 24 scientists -- is that this document, this public 25 statement made by the C -- by the Tobacco Industry STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 c1 R f f N 0"'i' '&2.1V9.WG.f.

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 152 03:21:20 03:21:24 03:21:26 03:21:30 03:21:30 03:21:34 03:21:36 03:21:36 03:21:38 03:21:42 03:21:48 03:21:48 03:21:54 03:22:04 03:22:06 03:22:06 03:22:10 03:22:10 03:22:10 03:22:14 03:22:16 03:22:18 03:22:24 03:22:30 03:22:34 1 Research Committee, states point blank that 2 scientists have not actually succeeded in isolating 3 the substance from tobacco smoke; correct? 4 A. I -- I see that. I don't know whether that's 5 true or not. 6 Q. Well if it's not true, then it's a misleading 7 statement by the Tobacco Industry Research Committee; 8 correct? 9 A. I don't know because I was not there, and I 10 don't know the extent of research with benzpyrene at 11 that time. 12 Q. I'd like to show you a document that's been 13 previously marked as 1049. This is a document Bates 14 stamp numbered 500945942 through 5945. 15 Have you seen this document previously? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. This is a document authored by Dr. Alan 18 Rodgman. Do you know 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. Dr. Rodgman is a who that is? research scientist for RJR 21 Tobacco, and this is a document that was produced 22 from RJR Tobacco's files. 23 Under paragraph Roman numeral I, "HISTORICAL," 24 it says, "In 1954 the first report of the presence of 25 a carcinogenic, parenthetical, cancer-producing, end STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR MN 044M.-W ~~

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:22:36 03:22:40 03:22:42 03:22:44 03:22:46 03:22:46 03:22:50 03:23:02 03:23:06 03:23:10 03:23:14 03:23:18 03:23:22 03:23:22 03:23:24 03:23:26 03:23:28 03:23:28 03:23:28 03:23:38 03:23:42 03:23:46 03:23:48 03:23:52 03:23:56 153 1 parenthetical, polycyclic hydrocarbon 3,4-benzpyrene 2 in cigarette smoke was published." Correct? 3 A. That's what it says. 4 Q. That's in part what triggered the Frank 5 Statement; correct? 6 A. I have no idea. 7 Q. Why don't you take a quick look at the Frank 8 Statement that's Exhibit 1148. It talks about recent 9 reports on experiments with mice. Do you know if 10 part of those experiments included the notion that 11 benzpyrene had been identified in tobacco condensate? 12 A. I don't know that and you're asking me to -- to 13 conjecture about what people knew in 1954, and I 14 simply can't do that. 15 Q. Okay. So you can't -- 16 You can't tell me whether or not that was one of 17 the studies that was being addressed in the Frank 18 Statement; correct? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Okay. Let's look down to the fourth paragraph. 21 It says, "As described in RDR, 1956, No. 9, we in the 22 R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Company Research Department 23 corroborated the published findings with respect to 24 3,4-benzpyrene, obtained this compound in crystalline 25 form, and positively identified it as a constituent STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R M N 0 ~~~6 3

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:23:58 03:24:00 03:24:00 03:24:04 03:24:12 03:24:12 03:24:14 03:24:16 03:24:18 03:24:20 03:24:22 03:24:22 03:24:24 03:24:26 03:24:26 03:24:30 03:24:30 03:24:34 03:24:34 03:24:36 03:24:42 03:24:44 03:24:48 03:24:50 03:24:52 154 1 of cigarette smoke on the basis of its chemical and 2 physical properties." Correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. So in 1956 R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Company had 5 definitively identified benzpyrene in cigarette 6 smoke; correct? 7 A. I guess so. I accept what is written here. 8 Q. And yet its own representatives at the TIRC a 9 year later make a public statement denying that it's 10 been isolated from tobacco smoke; -- 11 A. He may not have known it. 12 Q. -- correct? 13 Well he should have known it; correct? 14 A. Not necessarily. 15 Q. R. J. Reynolds shouldn't have allowed this 16 statement to go out when it knew from its own 17 research that the statement was false; correct? 18 A. That's your -- that's your editorial, but I 19 have -- 20 You know, transmission of information is not an 21 instantaneous or universally applicable event. 22 Q. But a company that takes as its primary 23 responsibility the health of individuals, allows 24 organization that it formed and funded to make 25 statements saying that we will disclose the facts an STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 02 ~ i 9 f'~a i ~`~ 4.+~ ""'f` .u ..~* ~ "` ~'

f C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:24:56 03:24:58 03:25:00 03:25:02 03:25:02 03:25:06 03:25:10 03:25:12 03:25:14 03:25:16 03:25:18 03:25:20 03:25:22 03:25:24 03:25:24 03:25:26 03:25:28 03:25:30 03:25:30 03:25:32 03:25:32 03:25:36 03:25:36 03:25:38 03:25:40 155 1 when we know them, should then not allow that 2 organization to make a statement it knows to be 3 false; correct? 4 A. That's your statement, Mr. O'Fallon, not mine. 5 Q. And you would disagree? 6 A. I would point out in your document that "There 7 is no evidence that any of these compounds," speaking 8 of the polycyclic hydrocarbons, "will produce cancer 9 in man." 10 Q. Read on. 11 A. "Nonetheless, there is a distinct possibility 12 that these substances would have a carcinogenic 13 effect on the human respiratory system." 14 Q. Read on. 15 A. I agree with that. 16 Q. Read on. 17 A. "Medical experience has shown that man responds 18 to various chemical substances in the same manner as 19 experimental animals." 20 Q. Read on. 21 A. "It follows therefore that it would be better 22 for the consumer if cigarette smoke were devoid of 23 such compounds." 24 Q. And R. J. Reynolds should have disclosed that to 25 the public as well; correct? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 L+ f f"! 1 IN L.rT 72r* ie! 5k

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:25:44 03:25:50 03:25:52 03:25:56 03:26:00 03:26:02 03:26:04 03:26:06 03:26:10 03:26:12 03:26:14 03:26:16 03:26:18 03:26:24 03:26:26 03:26:34 03:26:38 03:26:4 8 03:26:52 03:26:56 03:26:56 03:26:58 03:27:04 03:27:06 156 1 A. I don't know that. This is -- this is very 2 early in the investigative phase of -- of potential 3 carcinogens and you're asking me to speculate about 4 something that happened 40 years ago, and I have no 5 idea what was in their minds or much less how they 6 should have proceeded at that point. 7 Q. And you understand that the reason you don't 8 test a substance such as benzpyrene in man is because 9 if you suspect it's a carcinogen, it would be 10 unethical to test that substance in man; correct? 11 A. Sure. 12 Q. And therefore you have to rely on the animal 13 research. 14 A. I believe that was what Dr. Ernst Wynder was 15 referring to in his statement. 16 Q. We've now seen evidence from the cigarette 17 manufacturers' own files that they had isolated -- 18 Let's go back to that document for a second. In 19 addition to benzpyrene, RJR had also isolated ot:_er 20 polycyclic hydrocarbons thought to be carcinogens; 21 correct? 22 A. Apparently so. 23 Q. He goes on to say, after talking about 24 benzpyrene, "Some thirty-odd polycyclic hydrocarbons 25 have since been similarly characterized in these STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 t.x f i'ti i f N ti.d 429GGi

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:27:06 03:27:08 03:27:10 03:27:12 03:27:14 03:27:14 03:27:18 03:27:22 03:27:26 03:27:26 03:27:28 03:27:32 03:27:40 03:27:42 03:27:44 03:27:48 03:27:52 03:27:52 03:27:56 03:27:58 03:28:00 03:28:04 03:28:06 03:28:08 157 1 laboratories;" correct? 2 A. I -- 3 Yes, I see that. 4 Q. It says, "Of these, eight are carcinogenic to 5 mouse epidermis;" correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. "Cholanthrene, a potent carcinogen, is one of 8 three not yet reported by other investigators;" 9 correct? 10 A. Correct. This was in -- 11 Q. 1959. 12 A. -- November 1959. 13 Q. Right. So we now have evidence of numerous 14 polycyclic hydrocarbons known for carcinogenic -- 15 A. I'd like to interject one thing. At that time 16 we knew that methyl cholanthrene was a carcinogen. 17 In fact in that year I was using methyl cholanthrene 18 to induce testicular tumors in experimental animals. 19 So -- 20 Q. The problem is that no one's reported that that 21 particular substance is in cigarette smoke; correct? 22 A. I -- I guess that's what he means. 23 Q. And the whole problem is that a company that has 24 sworn some five years earlier that its primary 25 responsibility is the health of individuals should STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR HN 04d2.?;W 9 6 *f7

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:28:10 03:28:14 03:28:16 03:28:18 03:28:20 03:28:26 03:28:28 03:28:30 03:28:36 03:28:40 03:28:44 03:28:48 03:28:50 03:28:52 03:28:54 03:28:58 03:29:00 03:29:02 03:29:08 03:29:08 03:29:10 03:29:12 03:29:20 03:29:24 03:29:28 158 1 certainly be telling the public when it identifies a 2 known carcinogen;; correct, in cigarette smoke? 3 MR. MERRITT: Object to the form of the 4 question. 5 A. You're asking me to make a judgment about 6 behavior of people 40 years ago, and I can't do 7 that. I was not there. I don't -- I can't interpret 8 their thought process. 9 Q. So we've now seen a documer_t from RJR's files 10 where they identify eight carcir.ogenic substances in 11 tobacco smoke, including benzpyrene, and a document 12 from British-American Tobacco, the parent company of 13 B&W, that states that the major_ty of people in the 14 tobacco industry accept the cause-and-effect 15 relationship between cigarette smoking and lung 16 cancer. You would agree at this point in time it 17 would be unconscionable for the Tobacco Industry 18 Research Committee to come out and continue to 19 dispute adamantly that any connection had been shown 20 between cigarette smoking and lung cancer; correct? 21 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to object to that 22 as lacking in foundation, calling for a conclusion. 23 I object to your characterization of these documents. 24 A. I think what you're pointing out here is very 25 pertinent, and that is that the Tobacco Industry STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 L.x f f"4 HN 04'42.4 * 68

r C O N F I D E N T I A L 159 03:29:32 03:29:34 03:29:42 03:29:44 03:29:46 03:29:52 03:29:54 03:29:56 03:30:00 03:30:04 03:30:08 03:30:08 03:30:10 03:30:14 03:30:14 03:30:14 03:30:18 03:30:20 03:30:26 03:30:28 03:30:30 03:30:32 03:30:32 03:30:34 03:30:36 1 Research Committee and The Council for Tobacco 2 Research have never been under direct control of the 3 tobacco industry. And I accept, too, that Dr. 4 Hockett was an honorable man and a good scientist, 5 and anything he said would have been what he believed 6 to be true at that particular point in time. 7 Q. Whatever he said would have been in the 8 interests of the tobacco industry; correct? 9 A. No, sir. Dr. Hockett was a very honorable 10 scientist of distinction, and whatever he said I 11 accept would be what he believed at that point in 12 time. 13 Q. So you think if R. J. Reynolds had disclosed to 14 him that they'd isolated benzpyrene, he would have 15 said so? 16 A. I think so. 17 Q. Apparently he was one of the people that BATCO 18 talked to. Don't you think, as an honorable 19 scientist, when he told B.A.T. in 1958 or apparently 20 indicated to them that he believed that cigarette 21 smoking had been established as a cause of lung 22 cancer, that he should have come out publicly and 23 said so? 24 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to object to that. 25 If that's an attempt to characterize this document, STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R  lN 0 422 9 6 1/1.

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:30:38 03:30:42 03:30:46 03:30:52 03:30:52 03:30:58 03:31:02 03:31:06 03:31:08 03:31:10 03:31:14 03:31:16 03:31:20 03:31:24 03:31:58 03:32:00 03:32:02 03:32:04 03:32:06 03:32:10 03:32:12 03:32:16 03:32:22 03:32:26 03:32:28 160 1 it's grossly inaccurate. 2 A. I can't respond to that because I don't know the 3 sequence of events, what he knew, when. I accept his 4 statement that is written as correct as what he 5 believed. 6 Q. As of 1959, based on the documents you have 7 seen, it would be inconsistent for the Tobacco 8 Industry Research Council, who -- Committee, who's 9 basically told B.A.T. researchers that they agree 10 that there's a causal connection established, to come 11 out and start stating that, hey, the scientific 12 evidence is actually even more overwhelming against 13 the theory that tobacco smoking causes lung cancer. 14 MR. MERRITT: Object to the question. 15 Q. Can you answer that, or do you want me :.o 16 restate it? 17 A. You'll have to restate it because there were 18 about three things in there, and I got lost along the 19 way. 20 Q. As of 1959, based on the documents that you've 21 seen, you would agree that it would be unconscionable 22 for the TIRC to come out and state that the evidence 23 even more strongly conflicts with or fails to support 24 the theory that tobacco smoking causes lung cancer. 25 A. I don't think anything is unconscionable about STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR HN 0422?970

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:32:32 03:32:36 03:32:38 03:32:42 03:32:44 03:32:48 03:32:50 03:32:52 03:32:54 03:32:56 03:32:58 03:33:00 03:33:02 03:33:08 03:33:08 03:33:14 03:33:18 03:33:36 03:33:38 03:33:38 03:33:40 03:33:44 03:33:52 03:33:54 03:33:56 161 1 Dr. Hockett making a statement to the press. It was 2 the charge to the Tobacco Industry Research Committee 3 to provide public information, and he was telling 4 people what he believed at that point in time. 5 Q. Presumably, though, he should make sure that the 6 information he gives or the statements he makes are 7 truthful. 8 A. I'm certain that they were. 9 Q. And you would agree that he shouldn't be telling 10 one group of people one thing and another group of 11 people another thing about causation; correct? 12 A. He was not -- 13 I have not seen any statement he made about 14 causation. And again we come back to definitions. 15 If you want to talk about the link between smoking 16 and -- and health, fine, everybody accepts that; if 17 you want to use that as cause scientifically 18 speaking, that's not causation. 19 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1155 was 20 marked for identification.) 21 BY MR. O'FALLON: 22 Q. Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1155 is a document Bates 23 stamp numbered CTR MN 11311722 through 725. This is 24 again a Hill & Knowlton press release; correct? 25 A. Correct. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR NN 0422197"1

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:33:58 03:33:58 03:34:00 03:34:02 03:34:04 03:34:04 03:34:06 03:34:08 03:34:10 03:34:14 03:34:16 03:34:18 03:34:22 03:34:22 03:34:26 03:34:28 03:34:32 03:34:34 03:34:36 03:34:38 03:34:40 03:34:44 03:34:44 03:34:50 162 1 Q. It's released on behalf of the Tobacco Industry 2 Research Committee; correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. It's released on November 27th, 1959; -- 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. -- correct? 7 It says "CANCER SCIENTIST'S COMMENT ON SMOKING- 8 LUNG CANCER REVIEW;" correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. It says, "Dr. C. C. Little, scientific director 11 of the Tobacco Industry Research Committee, today 12 issued a comment on the statement of the Public 13 Health Service on, quote, Smoking and Lung Cancer; " 14 correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. It says, "Dr. Little's comment follows." 17 Quote, "Today, more than ever before, scientific 18 evidence is accumulating that conflicts with or fails 19 to support the tobacco-smoking theories of lung 20 cancer;" correct? 21 A. That probably is correct in 1959. 22 Q. Well it's not correct based on the information 23 we've already seen; correct? 24 A. No, that's your interpretation. 25 Q. Okay. Assuming that the B.A.T. document is STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR PIN 04'2-;'9.'j*F",2

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:34:52 03:34:54 03:34:58 03:35:00 03:35:02 03:35:06 03:35:08 03:35:14 03:35:20 03:35:24 03:35:28 03:35:30 03:35:30 03:35:40 03:35:44 03:35:52 03:35:52 03:35:54 03:35:56 03:36:00 03:36:04 03:36:08 03:36:12 03:36:14 163 1 correct when it states that there was a general 2 agreement that smoking caused cancer in the tobacco 3 industry, Dr. Little's comment is false; correct? 4 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to object to that, 5 assuming a fact not in evidence and mischaracterizing 6 a document. 7 A. Again we come back to causation. I don't think 8 that anyone at this point in time or even today would 9 say that smoking tobacco causes cancer. There are 10 many other events that account for cell regulation, 11 why a cell goes wrong, that must be introduced into 12 the equation. 13 Q. Let me just understand that. It's your 14 testimony that you don't think that anyone at this 15 point in time, or even today, would say that smoking 16 tobacco causes cancer? That's what you just said; 17 right? 18 A. Can we -- 19 Yes, in the scientific sense. And I've been 20 over this repeatedly, Mr. O'Fallon; I don't know how 21 I can be any clearer than I've been. If you want to 22 talk about risk factors and relationships between 23 smoking, lung cancer, a variety of other diseases, 24 most certainly all of us can accept that, but I have 25 never seen a death certificate that says "Cause of STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR rNIN 04~ 29--,773

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:36:20 03:36:26 03:36:30 03:36:36 03:36:40 03:36:42 03:36:42 03:36:46 03:36:46 03:36:48 03:36:52 03:36:56 03:36:58 03:37:02 03:37:02 03:37:06 03:37:06 03:37:12 03:37:14 03:37:18 03:37:22 03:37:24 03:37:24 03:37:28 164 1 Death: Smoking." Smoking may potentiate cells to go 2 wrong in their regulation, in their regulatory cycle, 3 and it may be a risk factor as we all know from 4 statistical evidence, but to say that per se it is 5 the scientific cause is -- is erroneous. It is not 6 scientifically correct. 7 Q. Well doesn't -- 8 A. It is not like the tubercle bacillus causing 9 tuberculosis. 10 Q. Let's just back up a second. I'm going to take 11 a very recent example. 12 Princess Dianna died a couple days ago. As I 13 understand it, she died of a coronary arrest; 14 correct? 15 A. That's what the newspapers say. 16 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that the reason 17 she died is because she was in a high-speed auto 18 crash? 19 A. No. I don't even think that's relevant. 20 Q. The fact of the matter is that nowhere in 21 Exhibit 1155 does Dr. Little state that he believes 22 smoking is a risk factor for lung cancer; correct? 23 A. I wouldn't have expected that he would. 24 Q. And he didn't; correct? 25 A. Dr. Little was a geneticist. He was absolutely STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR- 111N 042' q_"41

C O N F I D E N T I A L l-) 03:37:30 03:37:34 03:37:40 03:37:42 03:37:42 03:37:44 03:37:54 03:37:56 03:38:10 03:38:14 03:38:16 03:38:18 03:38:20 03:38:24 03:38:28 03:38:30 03:38:32 03:38:40 03:38:42 03:38:42 03:38:46 03:38:48 03:38:54 03:38:54 165 1 convinced that there were genetic bases of virtually 2 all disease. 3 Q. And he's speaking on behalf of the Tobacco 4 Industry Research Committee, which speaks on behalf 5 of the tobacco industry; correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. I'd like to show you a document that's been 8 previously marked as Plaintiffs' Deposition Exhibit 9 1050. This is a document Bates stamp numbered 10 504822847 through 2852. 11 Have you seen th_s document previously? 12 A. No, sir. And it's not particularly legible 13 either. 14 Q. This is entitled "THE SMOKING AND HEALTH 15 PROBLEM -- A CRITICAL AND OBJECTIVE APPRAISAL;" 16 correct? 17 A. That is the title. 18 Q. It's dated 1962; correct? 19 A. Dated 1962. 20 Q. The author is Alan Rodgman? 21 A. I suppose so. 22 Q. I'll represent that it is. And it appears that 23 he's in the Chemical Research Division; correct? 24 A. Yes, I believe so. 25 Q. I will further reoresent that this is a document STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R Nj N 0 4`9- f75

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:38:58 03:39:00 03:39:02 03:39:06 03:39:10 03:39:14 03:39:16 03:39:16 03:39:22 03:39:24 03:39:24 03:39:24 03:39:28 03:39:32 03:39:36 03:39:40 03:39:40 03:39:40 03:39:44 03:39:46 03:39:50 03:39:56 03:39:56 03:39:58 166 1 produced by R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Corporation in the 2 ongoing litigation. Okay? 3 A. All right. 4 Q. What Dr. Rodgman does is he goes through and 5 analyzes the evidence concerning the, as he calls it, 6 the cigarette smoke/lung cancer problem; correct? 7 MR. MERRITT: Well I'm going to object to 8 that. 9 Q. Let's turn to page two of the document. Roman 10 numeral I, do see where it says "The Evidence - Pro 11 and Con?" 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. It says, "The cigarette smoke-lung cancer 14 problem has been investigated epidemiologically, 15 pathologically, biologically, and chemically. Each 16 discipline has yielded pertinent information." 17 Correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. He then looks at it. He goes through and 20 analyzes the epidemiological data, the pathological 21 data, the biological data, and the chemical data; 22 correct? 23 MR. MERRITT: If you want him to -- to make 24 sort of global statements about this document, you 25 should let him read it. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R hil N 0 4 2- '7 G

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:40:00 03:40:02 03:40:04 03:40:06 03:40:08 03:40:10 03:40:12 03:40:14 03:40:16 03:40:16 03:40:20 03:40:26 03:40:30 03:40:34 03:40:36 03:40:36 03:40:40 03:40:42 03:40:44 03:40:44 03:40:52 03:40:52 03:40:52 03:40:52 03:40:54 167 1 MR. O'FALLON: Well I'm going to get to -- 2 I don't need him to make global statements about 3 it. I'm going to get to the statement I want him to 4 refer to. I just want him to lc~ok and see that. 5 MR. MERRITT: Well I mean if you're asking 6 if there are headings there, that's one thing. If 7 you're asking whether that's the methodology or the 8 organization of the thing, I think he has to look at 9 the whole -- at the whole document. 10 Q. Well would you agree that it appears that what 11 Dr. Rodgman has done is examine the epidemiological, 12 pathological, biological, and c^emical data? 13 A. I doubt if he examined the data. I suspect that 14 he did a library search. 15 Q. Well you understand that he's also a bench 16 scientist; correct? 17 A. I don't understand because I don't know Dr. 18 Rodgman. I accept what you're ~elling me. 19 Q. All right. We saw the 1959 memo -- 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. -- and talking about the research done at R. J. 22 Reynolds. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. So it's not going to be just outside research 25 they're looking at here. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C" 7 hR t -, I N 0 4 '2' 9 ' I?' °~~"

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:40:58 03:41:02 03:41:04 03:41:06 03:41:10 03:41:16 03:41:20 03:41:22 03:41:22 03:41:26 03:41:28 03:41:34 03:41:38 03:41:42 03:41:50 03:41:50 03:41:54 03:41:56 03:41:58 03:42:02 03:42:06 03:42:08 03:42:10 03:42:12 03:42:14 168 1 A. Well I -- I am absolutely certain that Dr. 2 Rodgman did not oversee 34 different statistical 3 studies. I am absolutely certain. 4 Q. Right. I will concede that some of the -- some 5 of the data is external data. 6 A. I will concede that most of it is. I would be 7 highly suspicious that the vast majority of it is 8 external data. 9 Q. Okay. Well we've talked about what they've 10 already identified in identifying compounds in 11 cigarette smoke; correct? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. Let's see what he concludes at paragraph small 14 letter e. on page four of this document, Bates number 15 2850. Do you see that? 16 A. I do. 17 Q. He states, quote, "Obviously, the amount of 18 evidence accumulated to indict cigarette smoking as a 19 health hazard is overwhelming. The evidence 20 challenging this indictment is scant. Attempts to 21 shift the blame to other factors, e.g., air 22 pollutants, necessitates acceptance of data similar 23 to those denied in the cigarette smoke case." 24 Correct? 25 A. Correct. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 E~ CTR NN 042--9"~ 8

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:42:16 03:42:18 03:42:22 03:42:24 03:42:24 03:42:26 03:42:28 03:42:30 03:42:36 03:42:40 03:42:44 03:42:48 03:42:50 03:42:52 03:42:52 03:42:56 03:43:00 03:43:04 03:43:04 03:43:06 03:43:06 03:43:08 03:43:10 03:43:10 03:43:12 169 1 Q. Do you know whether R. J. Reynolds at this point 2 in time publicly stated that the amount of evidence 3 accumulated to indict cigarette smoking as a health 4 hazard is overwhelming? 5 A. I have no idea. 6 Q. Do you know whether they stated that the 7 evidence challenging this indictment is scant? 8 A. I have no idea. 9 Q. Don't you agree that they had a duty to make 10 sure that their representatives, such as people 11 working at TIRC, either conveyed this information to 12 the public or made sure that they didn't state -- 13 make statements that were fundamentally opposed to 14 what they themselves believed? 15 MR. MERRITT: Object to the question. 16 A. I don't know what they themselves believed, and 17 furthermore, I don't know what the corporate duty is, 18 so I really am incompetent to make any comment about 19 that. 20 Q. The Council for Tobacco Research is a 21 corporation; isn't it? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You're the CEO of that corporation; correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. It's certainly not your testimony that you don't STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 c~m HN 042-1~ ~ ~

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:43:14 03:43:16 03:43:20 03:43:24 03:43:24 03:43:28 03:43:30 03:43:30 03:43:36 03:43:40 03:43:42 03:44:54 03:44:56 03:44:58 03:45:04 03:45:14 03:45:16 03:45:16 03:45:18 03:45:20 03:45:22 03:45:22 03:45:26 170 1 know the meaning of what a corporate duty is in the 2 context of a corporate entity like CTR; correct? 3 A. I know what my corporate duty is, but I can't 4 speak for R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Company or any other 5 corporate enterprise. 6 Q. Well how about TIRC. Do you think TIRC had a 7 duty to make sure that its statements were true 8 before they made them? 9 A. I don't think that the issue of duty is -- is 10 germane. I am certain that the statements made by 11 Dr. Hockett and Dr. Little were things that they 12 believed at the time. 13 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1156 was marked 14 for identification.) 15 BY MR. O'FALLON: 16 Q. Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1156 is a document Bates 17 stamp numbered CTR MN 11312128 through 11312130. 18 This is again another press release by Hill & 19 Knowlton; correct? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. This is made on behalf of the Tobacco Industry 22 Research Committee; correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Its release date is Friday, April 19th of 1963; 25 correct? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 ... 8S.A CTR NN 04'-*

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:45:26 03:45:30 03:45:32 03:45:32 03:45:38 03:45:42 03:45:44 03:45:48 03:45:50 03:45:54 03:45:54 03:45:56 03:45:58 03:46:00 03:46:02 03:46:06 03:46:06 03:46:14 03:46:14 03:46:18 03:46:20 03:46:24 03:46:28 03:46:30 03:46:34 171 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And again this is a stat-empnt put out by Dr. 3 Little; right? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. Dr. Little states in 1963, which is now after 6 the report that Dr. Rodgman •aro:e, that, quote, 7 "There does not exist the essen:ial experimental and 8 clinical knowledge with which science can even define 9 or identify the multiple fac:ors or influences that 10 may contribute to the origin and progress of these 11 diseases." Right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And again he's talking about diseases associated 14 with cigarette smoking; correct? 15 A. That's the assumption. 16 Q. That would be a reasonable assumption; right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. That's really the opposite of what Dr. Rodgman 19 said when he said that the amount of evidence 20 accumulated to indict cigarette smoking as a health 21 hazard is overwhelming; correct? 22 A. That's Dr. Rodgman's interpretation of the 23 literature he's reviewed, and I have no -- I have no 24 basis for making a judgment about Dr. Rodgman's 25 opinion any more than I have a basis for making a STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R t- I N 0 42, 9. 8 1

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:46:38 03:46:40 03:46:44 03:46:50 03:46:54 03:46:54 03:46:56 03:47:00 03:47:08 03:47:10 03:47:14 03:47:16 03:47:18 03:47:20 03:47:22 03:47:22 03:47:30 03:47:30 03:47:30 03:47:30 03:47:34 03:47:38 03:47:40 03:47:40 03:47:42 172 1 judgment about Dr. Little's opinion in 1963. 2 Q. But the one consistent :heme is that they are 3 both being paid by the tobacco industry; correct? 4 A. I suppose so. I -- I don't understand that 5 that's going to make any difference in a difference 6 of opinion. 7 Q. Don't you think if R. J. Reynolds, who undertook 8 this duty to put the health of the smoker first, had 9 come out and said in 1963 or 1962 that obviously the 10 amount of evidence accumulated to indict cigarette 11 smoke as a health hazard is overwhelming, that if 12 they had said that, the issue would be by and large 13 dead in this country about whether or not a 14 controversy still existed? 15 MR. MERRITT: Object to the question. 16 A. Oh, I think that's argumentative. I think 17 you're -- you're trying to get me to say something 18 that I don't believe. 19 Q. The fact of the matter _s that if the cigarette 20 companies came out and said :~hat they now accepted 21 that cigarette smoking causes cancer, we wouldn't 22 have a debate about whether cigarette smoking is a 23 health hazard; correct? 24 MR. MERRITT: Objection, calls for 25 speculation. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R H N 0 42-9. 822'

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:47:48 03:47:52 03:47:58 03:48:00 03:48:04 03:48:06 03:48:08 03:48:12 03:48:16 03:48:16 03:48:20 03:48:22 03:48:26 03:48:28 03:48:30 03:48:34 03:48:38 03:48:38 03:48:40 03:48:44 03:48:46 03:48:46 03:48:50 03:48:50 03:48:54 173 1 A. I have said repeatedly that we know that tobacco 2 and cigarette smoking constituted risk factors to 3 health and a number of disease processes. 4 I would call your attention to the document that 5 you provided to me where Dr. Little said, quote, 6 "Scientific work continued to support the view that 7 the quest for a single, simple, 'magic bullet' to 8 explain the causes or provide the cure for cancer and 9 of heart disease is unrealistic and probably futile." 10 Q. Where -- 11 A. And you are pursuing that very futile line of 12 reasoning in trying to ascribe lung cancer or any 13 other disease to one single factor. And the 14 scientific community simply does not believe this. 15 And besides, we continue to go over this ancient 16 history; this is 30, 40 years old. This is not -- 17 this is not applicable to anything we do or say 18 today. 19 Q. Where in this document does it say cigarette 20 smoking is a risk factor for any disease? 21 A. It doesn't use that terminology. I use that 22 terminology. 23 Q. This document doesn't say it in 1962; does it? 24 A. It makes no difference to me. It is something 25 that we have come to accept. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T / ' 1l ) ! 0 4 29 83

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:48:54 03:48:56 03:49:00 03:49:02 03:49:04 03:49:08 03:49:12 03:49:14 03:49:18 03:49:20 03:49:24 03:49:28 03:49:32 03:49:34 03:49:36 03:49:42 03:49:42 03:49:44 03:49:48 03:49:50 03:49:52 03:49:56 03:50:00 03:50:00 03:50:02 174 1 Q. The fact of the matter is -- 2 Well when did we come to accept that? When did 3 the TIRC first come out and say that cigarette 4 smoking is a risk factor for lung cancer and other 5 diseases? 6 A. Since r-he cessation of the public relations 7 function of TIRC and the incorporation of CTR, we 8 have not served as a public information 9 clearinghouse. On the contrary, we have encouraged 10 those investigators whom we've supported to publish 11 the data that they derive from their experimentation, 12 and they have done so. And I've explained to you 13 earlier today, many of these reports are contrary to 14 the interests of the tobacco industry, and the 15 tobacco industry has never at any point criticized 16 CTR for publication of data not in their best 17 business interest. 18 Q. Move to strike as non-responsive. 19 When did TIRC first come out and say that 20 cigarette smoking is a risk factor for lung cancer or 21 other diseases? 22 A. I said risk factor. That is -- 23 There's no requirement that CTR or TIRC say risk 24 factor. 25 Q. Move to strike as non-responsive. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Ci f'~+' f t N 0'.°f 29Li 4

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 03:50:04 03:50:04 03:50:06 03:50:08 03:50:10 03:50:12 03:50:14 03:50:14 03:50:20 03:50:24 03:50:32 03:50:32 03:50:36 03:50:40 03:50:42 03:50:46 03:50:50 03:50:54 03:50:54 03:50:58 03:51:02 03:51:06 03:51:12 03:51:14 03:51:16 175 1 A. That's very responsive. 2 Q. When is the first time -- 3 A. Mr. O'Fallon, that's to=ally responsive, and 4 that's the only response I'm going to give you 5 because I -- it's the truth. 6 Q. Move to strike as non -- 7 A. Risk factor is my termi~:ology, not the CTR or 8 TIRC. 9 Q. Move to strike as non-responsive. Has T -- 10 Has TIRC or CTR ever stated publicly that 11 cigarette smoking is a risk =actor -- no, strike 12 that. 13 Prior to 1994, when you testified before the 14 Congress, had CTR ever stated publicly that smoking 15 is a risk factor for disease? 16 A. I can't tell you ancient history. What you've 17 been showing me here today is all out of the distant 18 past, and people do get a little smarter as we go 19 along. 20 Q. Sir, my lawsuit starts in i954 and goes through 21 to 1994. So prior to your statement before Congress 22 in 1994, had any representative of the TIRC or the 23 CTR ever publicly stated that smoking was a risk 24 factor for any disease? 25 A. I don't know. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR NN 042985

C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:51:18 03:51:18 03:51:20 03:51:26 03:51:28 03:51:28 03:51:32 03:51:34 03:51:40 03:51:42 03:51:44 03:51:50 03:51:52 03:51:56 03:52:00 03:52:02 03:52:04 03:52:10 03:52:12 03:52:14 03:52:28 03:52:28 03:52:30 03:52:34 176 1 Q. To the best of your knowledge, they have not; 2 correct? 3 A. I don't know. 4 Q. And I have shown you numerous statements now 5 made by TIRC in the past; correct? 6 A. You've shown me ancient history. 7 Q. And not one of them has said that cigarette 8 smoking is a risk factor for lung disease or any 9 other disease, correct? 10 A. None that you've shown me today. 11 Q. And as you sit here today, you can't identify 12 any such statements; correct? 13 Correct? 14 A. I don't think I ought to even dignify that sort 15 of a question with a -- with a response. It's 16 unpleasant and uncalled for. I told you what I 17 know. I told you that "risk factor" is my 18 terminology. There is no obligation for people 19 working for TIRC 40 years ago to use the same 20 terminology I'm using with you here today. 21 Q. Then let's use the terminology that they use. 22 Have you got the Frank Statement there in front 23 of you? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Cigarette industry in 1954 stated, "We believe STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R i"IN 04~9W 8 ~

( C O N F I D E N T I A L 03:52:40 03:52:42 03:52:42 03:52:44 03:52:48 03:52:50 03:52:54 03:52:56 03:52:58 03:53:02 03:53:04 03:53:06 03:53:08 03:53:16 03:53:18 04:00:20 04:00:24 04:00:28 04:00:30 04:00:32 04:00:36 04:00:40 04:00:44 04:00:48 177 1 that products we make are not injurious to health." 2 Have they ever reneged that statement? 3 A. I can't -- I can't tell you that. I believe 4 that executives of the tobacco industry have 5 indicated an understanding that their -- that smoking 6 is a risk factor in health. 7 Q. But again, risk factor, you have testified now 8 at least 15 times, is your language. What I'm 9 concentrating on is their language. 10 They took out an ad in 1954 stating that 11 cigarettes are not injurious to health. Have they 12 ever retracted that language? 13 A. I don't know. 14 MR. O'FALLON: Why don't we take a break. 15 THE REPORTER: Off the record, please. 16 (Recess taken.) 17 BY MR. 0'=ALLON: 18 Q. What year did Dr. Little join TIRC? 19 A. I believe in 1954, shortly after it was 20 organized, but I'm not sure of that. 21 Q. Did he continue to do research on tobacco and 22 health? 23 A. I can't tell you that. He wore many hats, so I 24 expect he was continuing to be active at least as a 25 consultant at the Jackson Laboratory. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 L.r f f'C f f f"i 042.. ~'L~ rf~

C O N F I D E N T I A L 178 04:01:00 04:01:04 04:01:06 04:01:10 04:01:12 04:01:16 04:01:32 04:01:34 04:01:34 04:01:38 04:01:44 04:01:48 04:01:50 04:01:50 04:01:52 04:01:54 04:01:56 04:02:00 04:02:00 04:02:00 04:02:06 04:02:08 04:02:10 04:02:14 1 (Discussion off the stenographic record.) 2 Q. But again, the whole notion of the TIRC and 3 later The Council for Tobacco Research was that that 4 research would be independent, so presumably Dr. 5 Little wouldn't be doing smoking-and-health research 6 while he was employed by the TIRC/CTR; correct? 7 A. I think so. 8 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1157 was marked 9 for identification.) 10 BY MR. O'FALLON: 11 Q. Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1157 is a document Bates 12 stamp numbered CTR PUBLIC STATEMENT 001239 through 13 1234. 14 Have you seen this document previously? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. This is a press release that was apparently 17 issued on February 3rd of 1969; correct? 18 A. That's the date. 19 Q. The TIRC is now called The Council for Tobacco 20 Research; correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. The first paragraph states, "The scientist who 23 has been associated with more research in tobacco 24 health than any other person declared today that, 25 quote, there is no demonstrated causal relationship STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R N N 0 4221 9. 8 8

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:02:18 04:02:18 04:02:22 04:02:28 04:02:28 04:02:32 04:02:36 04:02:40 04:02:44 04:02:48 04:02:56 04:03:00 04:03:04 04:03:08 04:03:12 04:03:14 04:03:16 04:03:20 04:03:22 04:03:24 04:03:26 04:03:28 04:03:30 04:03:34 179 1 between smoking and any disease, end quote;" correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. Now Dr. Little was not doing research between 4 1954 and 1969, at least to the best of your 5 estimation; correct? 6 A. Well when you say "not doing research," I would 7 imagine that his many duties with the American Cancer 8 Society or its predecessor, with the Council for 9 Tobacco Research, and presumably with the Bar Harbor 10 Laboratory would have precluded him doing any active 11 wet research at the bench, but I'm certain that a 12 scientist of his capability and intellect and 13 interest would have participated in some consultative 14 capacity in work being done through those years. 15 Q. He then goes on to state, quote, "The gaps in 16 knowledge are so great that those who dogmatically 17 assert otherwise - whether they state that there is 18 or is not such a causal relationship - are premature 19 in judgment. If anything, the pure biological 20 evidence is pointing away from, not toward, the 21 causal hypothesis;" correct? 22 A. That is what he said. 23 Q. That statement does not support the notion that 24 cigarette smoking is a risk factor for disease; 25 correct? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 ~.T R H N 0 4 229 8 9.

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:03:40 04:03:44 04:03:48 04:03:50 04:03:54 04:03:56 04:04:02 04:04:06 04:04:08 04:04:12 04:04:12 04:04:16 04:04:20 04:04:20 04:04:26 04:04:28 04:04:32 04:04:36 04:04:40 04:04:44 04:04:48 04:04:50 04:04:52 04:04:56 04:04:58 180 1 A. That's correct. I pointed out previously Dr. 2 Little was a geneticist, was convinced as a genetic 3 scientist that the genetic makeup of an individual 4 largely determines his suceptibility to cancer, 5 cardiovascular disease, or chronic respiratory 6 disease, which is stated further on. 7 Q. Thus for 15 years, from 1954 to 1969, the 8 representatives of the TIRC and The Council for 9 Tobacco Research have steadfastly claimed that the 10 causal connection between smoking and disease has not 11 been proven; correct? 12 A. That is what is said. 13 Q. And smokers would certainly be entitled to rely 14 upon those opinions; correct? 15 MR. MERRITT: Well you're -- again you're 16 asking him -- I'm going to -- 17 I'll object to the form of the question. 18 A. Dr. Little is a scientist of distinguished 19 reputation. I imagine that at least some people in 20 the public would rely on his -- his opinion. But he 21 is simply expressing his scientific opinion. 22 Q. He's expressing that opinion, however, on behalf 23 of an institute that's been established by the 24 tobacco industry and has told the public that they 25 would be independent; correct? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R r" I N 0 4 ~~9- 0

(, C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:05:00 04:05:02 04:05:04 04:05:06 04:05:08 04:05:12 04:05:16 04:05:18 04:05:20 04:05:24 04:05:26 04:05:30 04:05:36 04:05:40 04:05:50 04:05:50 04:05:50 04:05:50 04:05:50 04:05:54 04:05:58 04:06:02 04:06:02 04:06:04 181 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. You would agree that people are en titled to rely 3 upon statements -- strike that. 4 You would agree it would be reason able for 5 people to rely on the statements that I 've shown you 6 made by TIRC and the CTR in concluding that cigarette 7 smoking did not cause disease, and, in so concluding, 8 continuing to smoke cigarettes; correct ? 9 MR. MERRITT: Objection, it c alls for a 10 conclusion and is lacking in foundation . 11 A. Not having had a chance to read th is document, I 12 can't speak to whether he comments on w hether people 13 should keep smoking or not. 14 Q. Well there's nowhere in here where he indicates 15 that cigarette smoking is implicated in disease; 16 correct? 17 A. I can't -- 18 MR. MERRITT: Well if you're going to ask 19 him about what's in the document, he s hould have an 20 opportunity to look at it. 21 A. I can't answer that. 22 Q. There's nowhere in this document where Dr. 23 Little states that cigarette smoking i s a risk factor 24 for disease; correct? 25 A. I -- I can't answer that. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 {.aP T! 1 l I! f 0l f.re ..~' .d" .6

C O N F I D E N: I A L 04:06:06 04:06:06 04:06:08 04:06:08 04:06:08 04:06:10 04:06:10 04:06:12 04:06:12 04:06:14 04:07:18 04:07:22 04:07:22 04:07:24 04:07:30 04:07:30 04:07:32 04:07:34 04:07:38 04:07:42 04:07:42 04:07:52 04:07:58 04:07:58 182 1 MR. MERRITT: Do you want to have him 2 look -- 3 MR. O'FALLON: He can certainly look at the 4 document. 5 MR. MERRITT: Why don't you -- 6 MR. O'FALLON: I'm nor- stopping him from 7 looking at the document. 8 MR. MERRITT: Why don't you read the 9 document. 10 MR. O'FALLON: And if you need to do that, 11 certainly why don't you do so. 12 (Witness reads document.) 13 A. I think Dr. Little was prophetic. On page two 14 he says, "The whole field of smoking and health 15 requires a great deal more research and information 16 before proper evaluation can be made," and I would -- 17 Q. There's nothing -- 18 A. -- second the motion. 19 Q. Move to strike that as non-responsive. 20 My question is: Does Dr. Little at any point in 21 this document implicate smoking as a cause of any 22 disease? 23 A. Do we have to define cause again? 24 Q. Can you answer my question? 25 A. I'll be glad -- STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C`TR HIN 0*4~~~4.

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 04:08:00 04:08:00 04:08:04 04:08:06 04:08:08 04:08:10 04:08:10 04:08:38 04:08:38 04:08:42 04:08:44 04:08:46 04:08:48 04:08:52 04:08:54 04:08:56 04:08:56 04:09:00 04:09:02 04:09:04 04:09:08 04:09:10 04:09:10 04:09:12 04:09:14 183 1 I'll be glad to go through the cause again. 2 Q. Can you answer my question? 3 A. No, not unless we define cause. 4 Q. There's nowhere in this document where he states 5 that cigarette -- 6 By the way, does he define cause anywhere in 7 here, sir? 8 A. I thought that was a rhetorical question to 9 yourself. 10 Q. No. Does he def-ine cause anywhere in here? 11 A. He says there is no demonstrated causal 12 relationship between smoking and any disease, and I 13 would subscribe to that if we're using the term 14 "cause" as a scientific term. 15 Q. But he doesn't define cause. 16 A. He doesn't define it, no. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. But he's using it in a scientific sense. 19 Q. But he's using it in a document that he knows is 20 going to be distributed to the press for broad 21 readership by people who are not scientists; correct? 22 A. He says -- 23 MR. MERRITT: Object, lack of foundation, 24 calls for a conclusion. 25 A. I can't respond to that. He's using the term STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 {.F T R l I N 0 4 Kmee 9 .a" 1~a'

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 04:09:18 04:09:20 04:09:22 04:09:22 04:09:26 04:09:28 04:09:30 04:09:32 04:09:34 04:09:34 04:09:36 04:09:38 04:09:38 04:09:40 04:09:42 04:09:46 04:09:46 04:09:50 04:09:52 04:09:54 04:09:56 04:09:58 04:10:02 04:10:04 184 1 "cause" as a good scientist would use it. 2 Q. He doesn't define the word cause there; correct? 3 A. He doesn't define it. 4 Q. And he understands that he's going to be 5 addressing this public press release to predominantly 6 non-scientists; correct? 7 A. Well I think you're ascribing motives to him 8 that I have no knowledge of. 9 Q. That would make some common sense, though; 10 right, sir? 11 A. Not necessarily. 12 MR. MERRITT: Object, object to that 13 question. 14 Q. When you put out a press release to the general 15 public, you know that a great many people are going 16 to read your statement who are non-scientists; 17 correct? 18 MR. MERRITT: Objection. There's no 19 evidence in the record that this went to the general 20 public. You keep saying this over and over again. 21 Are you representing that you've seen the -- the -- 22 the list that these things were distributed to? 23 Have you asked him where they currently 24 distribute press releases? And this is -- 25 MR. O'FALLON: I will -- STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C1 f"4 i iN 0'r'f' ,22.994

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:10:04 04:10:08 04:10:08 04:10:12 04:10:14 04:10:18 04:10:22 04:10:24 04:10:24 04:10:26 04:10:28 04:10:28 04:10:32 04:10:34 04:10:36 04:10:36 04:10:38 04:10:42 04:10:44 04:10:48 04:10:50 04:10:52. 04:10:54 04:10:56 04:11:00 185 1 MR. MERRITT: I think this is really an 2 unfair line of questioning, and you keep doing it. 3 MR. O'FALLON: I will state that we are 4 asking in discovery, as you well know, to get an 5 order that will in fact tell us where all of these 6 were distributed. I hope that we will be effective 7 in getting that as that discovery has not yet been 8 provided by you. 9 BY MR. O'FALLON: 10 Q. Doctor, do you know where ::his press release 11 went in 1969? 12 A. I have no idea. 13 Q. Are there lists kept in the files of The Council 14 for Tobacco Research that would tell me where this 15 press release went in 1969? 16 A. I don't know. 17 MR. 0'FALLON: And I have asked counsel on 18 numerous occasions, sir, for that information. If 19 you or one of your colleagues was on a conference 20 call with me in a meet and confer last month, you 21 will know that I have asked and I have sent letters 22 asking for specific information about where press 23 releases and other statements were released. So we 24 have asked for that information. We have attempted 25 to get it. If you would like me to call back Dr. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 crm I •N V' / 2.r' d' 5

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:11:02 04:11:04 04:11:06 04:11:08 04:11:10 04:11:12 04:11:14 04:11:16 04:11:18 04:11:20 04:11:22 04:11:24 04:11:24 04:11:26 04:11:26 04:11:28 04:11:30 04:11:34 04:11:38 04:11:38 04:11:38 04:11:40 04:11:40 04:11:42 04:11:44 186 1 Glenn when we obtain that information, I'll be more 2 than happy to do so, to lay foundation, or you and I 3 can come to some agreement about that. 4 MR. MERRITT: Well -- 5 MR. O'FALLON: But it will in time, I have 6 to assume -- and I believe it's a reasonable 7 assumption -- that when a press release is produced 8 and it indicates it was distributed, that it 9 indicates it was for release, that in fact it went 10 out. Now if you have evidence that indicates that I 11 am point blank wrong on that, then please come 12 forward with it. 13 MR. MERRITT: No, I'm not quarreling with 14 your statement -- 15 MR. O'FALLON: Okay. 16 MR. MERRITT: -- that it went out, I'm just 17 quarreling with your statement repeatedly that it 18 goes to the general public as opposed to scientists, 19 doctors, science writers, people who would have a 20 much more scientific orientation. 21 MR. O'FALLON: Well -- 22 MR. MERRITT: That's my -- 23 MR. O'FALLON: -- are you basing your 24 objection on something you know for a fact? 25 MR. MERRITT: Well I think you can ask Dr. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 E~T R I'l N 0 4 2 R.- 9 6

(.. C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:11:44 04:11:46 04:11:48 04:11:50 04:11:52 04:11:56 04:11:56 04:12:00 04:12:02 04:12:04 04:12:06 04:12:08 04:12:10 04:12:12 04:12:14 04:12:18 04:12:20 04:12:24 04:12:26 04:12:26 04:12:26 04:12:28 04:12:30 04:12:34 187 1 Glenn. They currently -- 2 Every year we put out press releases -- 3 MR. O'FALLON: Currently doesn't help me in 4 1969. 5 You're the attorney for these folks. I mean do 6 you have a basis for your -- for your objection? If 7 so, let me know. And do you have evidence in the 8 file that you know about that indicates that this 9 only went to the science press? Because that's the 10 kind of information, sir, that we've been asking for 11 for. It's now almost three months. 12 MR. MERRITT: I don't think -- 13 Let me talk to you at the break. I don't think 14 that -- that -- that I believe that the -- 15 I mean we don't have an absolute, complete 16 record; we couldn't tell you where this one went. 17 But we have mailing lists from a number of years back 18 which do show where -- where these things were 19 typically going. And I don't think we're withholding 20 those things; I think those things are in the 21 depository. 22 MR. O'FALLON: Well -- 23 MR. MERRITT: I'll be glad to call and try 24 to find out. 25 MR. O'FALLON: -- let me know where I can STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR 11N 042- 9-S-177

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:12:38 04:12:40 04:12:42 04:12:44 04:13:06 04:13:08 04:13:10 04:13:16 04:13:20 04:13:22 04:13:24 04:13:24 04:13:30 04:13:32 04:13:36 04:13:38 04:13:42 04:13:42 04:13:46 04:13:46 04:13:48 04:13:50 04:13:54 04:13:58 04:14:02 188 1 find them. In any event, would you agree -- 2 Well, I don't even know where we're at. What 3 was my last question. 4 THE REPORTER: Hit Q. 5 BY MR. O'FALLON: 6 Q. Doctor, assuming that this press release was 7 given wide distribution; that is, that it went to 8 services other than purely scientific services, you 9 would agree that the doctor who made this statement 10 would understand that it was going to be read by 11 non-scientists; correct? 12 A. I don't know that. 13 Q. Okay. I think you have made a distinction here 14 today between a scientific definition of cause and 15 what you've called a lay definition of cause. You 16 would understand that it's reasonable for the lay 17 public to use their definition of cause when reading 18 statements; correct? 19 A. I don't know. 20 MR. MERRITT: Object to the form of the 21 question. 22 Q. And similarly you would agree that when somebody 23 makes a public statement that they know will be 24 reaching the lay public, it would be reasonable for 25 that person making that statement to expect that the STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CT i 1 / I I`I 0429 Op' VY/~

C O N F I D Z N T I A L 04:14:04 04:14:08 04:14:08 04:14:10 04:14:12 04:14:14 04:14:20 04:14:26 04:14:38 04:14:44 04:14:52 04:14:56 04:14:58 04:15:00 04:15:02 04:15:06 04:15:08 04:15:08 04:15:12 04:15:12 04:15:16 04:15:18 04:15:20 04:15:30 04:15:30 189 1 lay public will use their definition of cause; that 2 is, the lay public's definition of cause; correct? 3 A. I don't know that. 4 Q. The only way to prevent that is to actually 5 define the word "cause" in your statement so that you 6 make sure that it's not miscons:rued; correct? 7 A. I don't see how you could misconstrue a 8 statement made by a scientist regarding what he -- 9 his current belief is in 1969. 10 Q. I'd like to next show you ?laintiffs' Exhibit 11 512. Are you familiar with Dr. Green? 12 A. Doctor -- 13 Q. Green. Green. 14 A. Harry Greene? 15 Q. I'm not sure if it's Harry Greene or not. He's 16 a scientist with the -- with British-American 17 Tobacco, Dr. S. J. Green. 18 A. No. 19 Q. Are you familiar with a program called Panorama? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Are you familiar with statements made on 22 Panorama by a tobacco industry representative where 23 he basically conceded causation? 24 A. This is dated 1980? 25 Q. Yes. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 l J C•  V I 1 i f `t' l 2_ 9IYI-

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:15:32 04:15:40 04:15:42 04:15:50 04:15:56 04:15:58 04:15:58 04:16:00 04:16:08 04 :16 :10 04:16:10 04:16:14 04:16:16 04:16:18 04:16:22 04:16:26 04:16:28 04:16:30 04:16:34 04:16:34 04:16:36 04:16:40 04:16:44 04:16:44 04:16:48 190 1 A. I am not familiar with this. 2 Q. Okay. Let's look on page -- 3 By the way, this document is Bates stamp 4 numbered 301140234 through 255. And I'd ask you to 5 look on page 237, or last three Bates numbered 237, 6 page three of this document. 7 Are you there? 8 A. I'm there. 9 Q. The first is a statement by a gentleman named 10 Long. Have you ever heard of Mr. Long? 11 A. No. 12 Q. It appears that he's a representative of Souza 13 Cruz, which is one of B.A.T Industries' other sister 14 companies similar to Brown & Williamson. 15 He states, quote, "The medical evidence, as far 16 as I am aware, is of a statistical nature and it is, 17 as you know, the industry's view that no evidence has 18 been produced to establish the causal relationship 19 between smoking and any of the diseases with which it 20 has been associated." Correct? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. That would also fairly state the American 23 industry's view at that point in time in 1980; 24 correct? 25 MR. MERRITT: Well I'm -- I'm going to STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 t.x i f"4 i 1 i 7 4.++ 43"00Li

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:16:50 04:16:54 04:16:56 04:16:58 04:17:00 04:17:02 04:17:04 04:17:08 04:17:10 04:17:10 04:17:14 04:17:18 04:17:20 04:17:28 04:17:30 04:17:30 04:17:32 04:17:34 04:17:36 04:17:40 04:17:44 04:17:46 04:17:48 04:17:48 04:17:50 191 1 object to that as lacking in foundation. 2 A. Well you are asking me for -- for a conclusion 3 that I can't reach because I wasn't there and I 4 wasn't -- I wasn't a participant. 5 Q. Based on your knowledge of the CTR and your 6 knowledge o= the industry and their statements on 7 causation, would that be consistent with what you 8 understood the American tobacco industry's position 9 to be in 1980? 10 A. I expect so. 11 Q. There's then a quote from Dr. Green. He's a 12 research chemist with British-American Tobacco, or 13 was. He had left British-American Tobacco at the 14 time he made this statement. He states, quote, "I 15 think this _s a very naive view and quite simply I 16 believe tha:~ just to say evidence is statistical and 17 can't prove anything is non -- is a nonsense. I 18 think that nearly all evidence these days is 19 statistical. I believe that experiments can be 20 carried out and have been carried out and I think 21 that in a nutshell that we can show -- that what we 22 can show is that smoking is a very serious causal 23 factor as far as the smoking population is 24 concerned." 25 Do you agree with that statement? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 15188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Cf m R MN 0'°T 3001

C O N F I D E N T I A L 192 04:17:54 1 A. Well I don't know. He's making a lot of 04:18:00 2 conclusions there; that's more than one statement. 04:18:04 3 Where he says he believes that nearly all 04:18:06 4 evidence is statistical, I would have to -- I 04:18:08 5 would -- I would certainly have to take issue with 04:18:08 6 that. 04:18:10 7 Q. Okay. 04:18:12 8 A. That's not true. Simply not true. 04:18:14 9 Q. How about his statement -- 04:18:18 10 And again, he's a former tobacco research 04:18:22 11 chemist. How about a statement that says, quote, ".I 04:18:24 12 believe that experiments can be carried out and hav e 04:18:28 13 been carried out and I think that in a nutshell wha t 04:18:30 14 we can show is that smoking is a very serious causa l 04:18:32 15 factor as far as the smoking population is 04:18:34 16 concerned," do you agree with that statement? 04:18:36 17 A. I'd have to see the documentation. I don't kn ow 04:18:38 18 of any -- any papers that he can cite that would 04:18:42 19 support that statement. 04:18:46 20 In 1980, were there experiments to be carried 04:18:50 21 out which would prove one way or the other? None h ad 04:18:54 22 been reported. Many animals had been exposed to 04:18:58 23 cigarette smoke in massive quantities and never any 04:19:02 24 reports of any serious diseases. 04:19:06 25 Q. Doctor, you have not seen all of the research STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 E~~~ N N 0 4 =3" 0 0',71

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:19:10 04:19:10 04:19:12 04:19:14 04:19:16 04:19:18 04:19:20 04:19:22 04:19:24 04:19:26 04:19:28 04:19:34 04:19:38 04:19:42 04:19:46 04:19:50 04:19:52 04:19:54 04:19:56 04:19:58 04:20:00 04:20:02 04:20:06 04:20:08 04:20:12 193 1 carried out by British-American Tobacco and -- and 2 B.A.T Industries in England; correct? 3 A. No, I have not. 4 Q. You have not seen all of the research that has 5 been carried out by R. J. Reynolds; correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. You have not seen the internal research that's 8 been carried out by Philip Morris; correct? 9 A. No, I have not. 10 Q. You have not seen the internal research that's 11 been carried out by Philip Morris through their 12 affiliate in Switzerland named INFOTAB; correct? 13 A. Correct. And that is my point, I don't -- I 14 don't know of any evidence, I don't know of any 15 papers, I don't know what the citations are that 16 would be supportive of this -- of this view. 17 Q. And you would agree that the tobacco industry, 18 if it had evidence such that Dr. Green is talking 19 about here, had that evidence internally, it had a 20 duty and a responsibility to the public to publish 21 that research and to make it known; correct? 22 A. I don't -- 23 No, I do not subscribe to that statement because 24 you haven't defined what the evidence is. Until I ~25 know that, I would like to -- STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 i.. CT l T+ J!N 0 43 0 03

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:20:12 04:20:14 04:20:16 04:20:18 04:20:20 04:20:22 04:20:22 04:20:24 04:20:26 04:20:26 04:20:28 04:20:38 04:20:40 04:20:42 04:20:44 04:20:46 04:20:50 04:21:10 04:21:12 04:21:16 04:21:18 04:21:24 04:21:26 04:21:36 04:21:42 194 1 Q. Well that's kind of -- 2 A. -- defer on answering. 3 Q. Well that's kind of the catch 22, though; right? 4 A. Your question is? 5 Q. Well the responsibility -- 6 A. You're asking me to make an assumption that I 7 can't make. 8 Q. Well you're saying that they don't have a duty 9 to disclose the evidence until you can see what the 10 evidence is. Right? 11 A. No, I didn't say that. I said I don't have the 12 ability to make a judgment or an evaluation of the 13 evidence until I have seen it. 14 Q. Did you ask the cigarette manufacturers to see 15 their internal research prior to going before 16 Congress and testifying in 1994? 17 A. No, I did not. 18 Q. Did the American industry adopt Dr. Green's 19 statements? 20 A. I would doubt it. 21 Q. And you understand that even today the American 22 industry claims that cigarette smoking does not cause 23 cancer. 24 A. I don't think that they are as naive as to make 25 a statement as bald as that. I think thinking STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR i i N 0430ti,.A "°f'

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:21:48 04:21:50 04:21:54 04:21:56 04:22:00 04:22:04 04:22:06 04:22:10 04:22:12 04:22:16 04:22:18 04:22:24 04:22:24 04:22:26 04:22:28 04:22:34 04:22:36 04:22:38 04:22:42 04:22:42 04:22:46 04:22:48 04:22:52 04:23:00 04:23:06 195 1 executives of the industry would tell you essentially 2 what I told you here today, that if you use the word 3 "causation" in the lay sense, there is certainly a 4 link between smoking and certain diseases, and we've 5 known that for a hundred years. The evidence has 6 increased as time goes on, and The Council for 7 Tobacco Research has contributed a great deal to the 8 development of that body of knowledge. 9 Q. But the statements we've looked at here today 10 from the TIRC have stated the exact opposite of what 11 you're now stating. They've stated that the evidence 12 has decreased that -- which proved that link. 13 A. That was ancient history. 14 Q. Well ancient history includes going back to 15 1969; correct? 16 A. I was not present in 1954, 1969, 1980. 17 Q. But you understand that you are here today as a 18 representative of the CTR and the TIRC; correct? 19 A. I do. And my tenure extends back 10 years. 20 Q. Right. 21 A. And I'm happy to comment on any of the 22 activities of CTR, particularly those within my 23 experience. 24 Q. Let's also look at page 239. And actually let's 25 start on page -- last three Bates numbered 238. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 4rF /•»! l Nl 1 MI' l 3+sf' W 5

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:23:08 04:23:14 04:23:18 04:23:20 04:23:22 04:23:26 04:23:28 04:23:30 04:23:32 04:23:32 04:23:36 04:23:38 04:23:42 04:23:44 04:23:48 04:23:52 04:23:54 04:23:56 04:23:58 04:24:02 04:24:04 04:24:08 04:24:10 04:24:16 04:24:18 196 1 Are you familiar with a group known as ICOSI? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Let's see what it says. "P.T,", and I think 4 that's probably the moderator, says, "The reason for 5 the industry's position lies in America. Here it has 6 faced a string of law suits brought by consumers who 7 say that cigarettes have damaged their health. 8 They're claiming huge sums of money in comparison. 9 Claims" -- 10 A. "Compensation." 11 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. "They're claiming huge sums of 12 money in compensation. Claims currently run to over 13 40 million dollars. So far the industry hasn't lost 14 a case. If it were to lose a case it could face an 15 avalanche of literally hundreds of -- thousands of 16 similar claims. The result? The industry might face 17 economic ruin. No wonder the industry closes ranks 18 whenever its interests are threatened. The companies 19 operating in the United States finance a powerful 20 lobby organisation, the Tobacco Institute. The 21 companies in Britain are represented by the Tobacco 22 Advisory Council, the TAC. In Germany the 23 multinationals have combined with domestic and 24 European manufacturers to form the Verband Der 25 Cigaretten Industry, and to keep a watching brief on STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CT/ 7 l 1N 043006

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 197 I 042420 042422 042426 04:2428 042432 0424:34 042438 04:2442 042444 042446 042448 042450 042454 042458 042500 042502 042502 0425:04 042506 042506 042510 042510 04:25:12 04:25:12 04:25:20 1 bodies like the Common Market Commission and the 2 World Health Organisation, the industry has now set 3 up an office in Brussels, ICOSI, the International 4 Committee on Smoking Issues. The companies finance 5 the office in Brussels, its staff seldom talk to the 6 press. ICOSI keeps a low profile: smoking and 7 health is its business. Last year it issued -- 8 issued a series of background briefing papers. Their 9 purpose, to make sure the companies are consistent in 10 their answers on smoking and health. This was their 11 basic position." 12 Quote, "Scientific research does not support the 13 conclusion that tobacco smoke or the constituen~s 14 found in tobacco smoke have been proven to cause 15 disease in humans." 16 Doctor, that's the same stance of the industry 17 today; correct? 18 MR. MERRITT: I'm -- I'm going to object. 19 Are you referring to this -- 20 MR. O'FALLON: I'm referring to the last 21 quote. I was putting it in context with the previous 22 reading. 23 MR. MERRITT: Okay. I want to object to 24 the form of the question. 25 You may answer. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 ~ TR Ia~~~~ ~4`007"

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:25:22 04:25:24 04:25:30 04:25:36 04:25:42 04:25:44 04:25:46 04:25:54 04:25:56 04:25:58 04:26:02 04:26:04 04:26:04 04:26:08 04:26:10 04:26:14 04:26:14 04:26:16 04:26:18 04:26:20 04:26:22 04:26:24 04:26:28 04 :26 :30 04:26:32 198 1 A. I don't know what the industry would say today, 2 whether they would subscribe to that identical 3 statement or not. Seems to me that the recent 4 testimony of industry executives has been very 5 relaxed to the extent they recognize the risk 6 relationship between smoking and health problems. 7 Q. Which testimony are you referring to? 8 A. Referring to recent testimony by the chief 9 executive officer of R. J. Reynolds and the chie= 10 executive officer of Philip Morris. 11 Q. The chief executive officer of R. J. Reynolds 12 Nabisco; correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You understand Mr. Goldstone is not the chief 15 executive officer of RJR Tobacco; correct? 16 A. No, but he's zhe chief executive of the parent 17 company. 18 Q. Yeah. Do you understand that R. J. Reynolds' 19 chief scientists have made statements such as they do 20 not consider smoking to be an unsafe activity? 21 A. I am not aware of that. 22 Q. All right. Because that would be fundamentally 23 at odds with what Mr. Goldstone was saying; correct? 24 A. I can't comment on that because I have no 25 knowledge of what they've said. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CT~' H N 0 4 1~0 0 8

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:26:32 04:26:34 04:26:38 04:26:38 04:26:40 04:26:42 04:26:46 04:26:48 04:26:50 04:26:52 04:26:54 04:26:56 04:26:58 04:27:00 04:27:04 04:27:04 04:27:06 04:27:08 04:27:10 04:27:12 04:27:14 04:27:16 04:27:18 04:27:20 199 1 Q. Do you know that RJR representatives have 2 recently testified that all cigarettes are safe? 3 A. I -- I do not know that. _t's not a part of my 4 experience. 5 Q. Right. And again, that would be inconsistent 6 with what you've recently seen; correct? 7 A. I can't comment on that because there -- 8 you're -- 9 You're telling me things that -- that are 10 hearsay as far as I'm concerned. 11 Q. Well I'm just trying to follow up on the 12 statement you made about recent executive 13 statements. The fact of the mazter is that the first 14 time you've seen an executive make a statement 15 similar to Mr. Goldstone is in ::he past couple of 16 weeks; correct? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. They've never made statements similar to that 19 prior to this time, to the best of your knowledge; 20 correct? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. To the best of your knowledge. 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. You don't know of any such statements; correct? 25 A. I do not know. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CT R f"! N 0 4 3" 0 0 9.

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:27:24 04:27:26 04:27:30 04:27:34 04:27:38 04:27:44 04:27:44 04:27:46 04:27:50 04:27:52 04:27:56 04:28:06 04:28:08 04:28:12 04:28:12 04:28:32 04:28:34 04:28:42 04:28:44 04:28:52 04:28:54 04:28:54 200 1 Q. Okay. Mr. -- 2 Dr. Green then goes on ?---o comment about ICOSI 3 and he says, "I must say, the scientists in the 4 industry, and that's worldwide : think, refer to that 5 particular organisation as the Flat Earth Society;" 6 correct? 7 A. That's what it says. 8 Q. And they -- 9 And then he asks "Why?" And he says, "For 10 obvious reasons. I don't think it's a scientifically 11 scientifically based organisation." Correct? 12 A. That is what is recorded. 13 Q. Doctor, in 1994 you tes;.if_ed before Congress; 14 correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You testified on behalf of The Council for 17 Tobacco Research; correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit _158 was marked 20 for identification.) 21 BY MR. O'FALLON: 22 Q. Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1158 is an excerpt from the 23 congressional record of the testimony of James F. 24 Glenn, Chairman, Council for Tobacco Research, USA. 25 Do you recognize this as your testimony? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR ! !  I 0! 3.aM' 1`alI'

C O N F I D E N T I A L 201 04:28:58 0429:00 0429:02 0429:14 04:29:18 0429:18 0429:20 0429:26 0429:28 0429:28 042932 042934 0429:42 0429:44 042948 042950 042952 042954 042956 042958 04:3002 043002 043004 04:3006 04:3006 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. I apologize if we didn't get all the tops of the 3 pages copied on all the documents, but I'd ask that 4 you look at page 375 of your testimony. You can find 5 it because you can go to 373, and then the next page 6 is 375. 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. It's the next one in the copy. 9 Are you there? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. At this time you were asked point blank by Mr. 12 Wyden whether you believed that smoking causes 13 cancer; correct? See at the bottom of the page? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And you stated "No, sir;" right? 16 A. Yes. But you're taking that out of context 17 because we had had the causation discussion at length 18 in the middle of tat page. 19 Q. And then he just asks you simply, "Do you 20 believe that smoking causes cancer?" Correct? 21 A. And the answer is scientifically, no. 22 Q. You just state -- 23 A. No, I had already stated my position very 24 clearly. 25 Q. You state -- STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C°~aR HN 043011

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:30:10 04:30:14 04:30:14 04:30:16 04:30:20 04:30:24 04:30:28 04:30:32 04:30:34 04:30:38 04:30:40 04:30:42 04:30:44 04:30:46 04:30:50 04:30:50 04:30:52 04:30:54 04:30:56 04:30:58 04:31:00 04:31:02 04:31:04 04:31:08 04:31:10 202 1 A. I stated that causation was a scientific term 2 and that we could not incriminate smoking per se. We 3 have never -- 4 I have never seen any evidence that smoking 5 causes lung cancer. I've seen lots of statistical 6 evidence that relates smoking -- that incriminates it 7 as a risk factor, nobody argues with that, but he was 8 asking me a question that I had already answered. 9 Q. And then he follows up and he asks you, quote, 10 "Do you believe that smoking causes cancer? 11 "Mr. Glenn: No, sir." 12 A. Yeah. It's Dr. Glenn, as a matter of fact. 13 Q. I'm just -- I'm -- 14 A. Just point of -- point of honor. 15 Q. And I'm not trying to be insulting. I'm quoting 16 from the document. 17 A. You are insulting. 18 Q. Well I don't mean any disrespect, sir. I'm 19 quoting from the document. The document says "Mr. 20 Glenn," and I'm not -- 21 A. And I already answered that previously; I 22 specifically talked about the issue of cause, 23 causation, scientific sense, lay sense, so it's 24 perfectly clear what I'm saying. 25 No, I don't think smoking per se has been shown STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 ~TR PIN 0430122

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:31:18 04:31:22 04:31:26 04:31:28 04:31:30 04:31:34 04:31:36 04:31:38 04:31:54 04:32:10 04:32:12 04:32:12 04:32:16 04:32:18 04:32:18 04:32:20 04:32:22 04:32:36 04:32:38 04:32:42 04:32:46 04:32:54 04:32:58 04:33:02 203 1 to be a causative factor for any disease, and it -- I 2 don't know how I can be any more clear than this. 3 Q. And again, what you state is, when you're asked 4 point blank by Mr. Wyden, "Do you believe that 5 smoking causes cancer?" you say, "No, sir." 6 He also asked, "Do you believe smoking is 7 addictive?" and you say, "No, sir;" correct? 8 A. I have no comment. 9 I could call your attention to the top of page 10 376, which supports what I've just stated to you. 11 Q. Move to strike that as non-responsive. 12 A. It's responsive. 13 MR. O'FALLON: Let's go off the record 'for 14 a second. 15 THE REPORTER: Off the record, please. 16 (Discussion off the record. ) 17 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1159 was marked 18 for identification.) 19 BY MR. O'FALLON: 20 Q. I've had marked as Deposition Exhibit No. -- 21 THE REPORTER: 1159. 22 Q. -- 1159 two pieces of paper. The first one is a 23 Westlaw report on an article that appeared in the 24 Star Tribune, and the second is an actual copy of 25 that article from the Star Tribune cut out. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 b.T T! 1 ! I! ! 7.I` I 1w+` 0ele 1s.+'

C O N F I D E N:' I A L 04:33:04 04:33:06 04:33:08 04:33:14 04:33:16 04:33:18 04:33:20 04:33:22 04:33:26 04:33:28 04:33:30 04:33:30 04:33:34 04:33:38 04:33:38 04:33:42 04:33:42 04:33:44 04:33:48 04:33:50 04:33:58 04:34:04 04:34:06 204 1 I'll represent to you, sir, that the Star 2 Tribune is the Minneapolis Star Tribune. It's a 3 paper that's seen in -- in Minnesota. It's one of 4 our larger papers. I'd like you to turn to the first 5 page -- 6 First of all, you understand that what this is 7 reporting on is your testimony hefore Congress; 8 correct? 9 A. I assume that. 10 Q. You understood before you went in to testify 11 that there would be media coverage of your 12 congressional testimony; correc:? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You understood that any statements you made 15 would -- would or may be widely reported; correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And you knew that before you went in; correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you wouldn't be surprised if I told you that 20 your statements were reported back in Minnesota; 21 correct? 22 A. I wouldn't be surprised. 23 Q. Okay. The second-to-last paragraph of the first 24 page of the document states as follows, quote, "He," 25 and it's I believe referring to you, "insisted that STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 t..x TR NN 043014

(l C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:34:08 04:34:12 04:34:16 04:34:18 04:34:18 04:34:22 04:34:24 04:34:26 04:34:26 04:34:28 04:34:28 04:34:30 04:34:34 04:34:42 04:34:44 04:34:52 04:34:54 04:34:56 04:34:58 04:35:00 04:35:02 04:35:02 04:35:04 04:35:08 04:35:10 205 1 smoking has not been proven a direct caus e of cancer, 2 only a risk factor, and he said CTR neve r tried to 3 stop researchers from reporting work con trary to that 4 view;" correct? t A C orrec . . 5 6 Q. You would agree that citizens in th e state of 7 Minnesota are entitled to rely upon your statement 8 that smoking has not been proven a direc t cause of 9 cancer; correct? 10 MR. MERRITT: I object, calls for a 11 conclusion. 12 A. Well this again is taken out of con text, and 13 they did not publish my discussion of -- of 14 causation, and the lay reader would have no basis for 15 judgment about a statement of that sort, so I think 16 this is an example of -- of bad reportag e. 17 Q. But the fact of the matter is, woul dn't you 18 agree, that smoking -- that in your opin ion smoking 19 has not been proven to be a direct cause of cancer, 20 only a risk factor? Isn't that similar to what 21 you've stated here today? 22 A. It's similar. 23 Q. And you would agree that the smoker s in the 24 state of Minnesota would be entitled to rely on your 25 statement in making their own conclusion that STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 k . Cf I 7 ! I I I 0430,1015t

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:35:14 04:35:16 04:35:20 04:35:24 04:35:30 04:35:36 04:35:40 04:35:46 04:35:50 04:35:52 04:35:54 04:35:56 04:35:58 04:36:00 04:36:02 04:36:04 04:36:08 04:36:08 04:36:08 04:36:12 04:36:22 04:36:24 04:36:26 04:36:28 04:36:30 206 1 cigarette smoking has not been proven to be a direct 2 cause of cancer; correct? 3 MR. MERRITT: Object to the form. 4 A. Mr. O'Fallon, the lay public has been bombarded 5 with information about the health risks of smoking. 6 What I have said here was taken out of context, and I 7 don't think that any reasonable person would possibly 8 accept this as an endorsement of smoking as opposed 9 to a risk factor for various health problems. 10 Q. But you're certainly casting doubt upon the 11 causal link between -- 12 A. No, I'm not. 13 Q. -- smoking and cancer; correct? 14 A. I'm not casting doubt upon anything. 15 Q. It would certainly be reasonable for someone who 16 read that statement to conclude that you're casting 17 doubt upon the causal relationship between smoking 18 and lung cancer; correct? 19 A. No. 20 MR. MERRITT: Object to the question. 21 Q. Dr. Glenn, do you believe that one person has 22 died as a result of smoking? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. Do you believe 10 people have died as a result 25 of smoking? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 •.v* 1 s I l ( I l I 0l 30Ya 1wi

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:36:32 04:36:34 04:36:34 04:36:36 04:36:40 04:36:42 04:36:44 04:36:48 04:36:50 04:36:54 04:36:58 04:37:02 04:37:04 04:37:06 04:37:08 04:37:12 04:37:14 04:37:18 04:37:22 04:37:26 04:37:30 04:37:34 04:37:36 04:37:38 04:37:42 207 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. Don't know whether anyone's ever died as a 3 result of smoking; correct? 4 A. I don't know. I would have to see the death 5 certificate and know some of the scientific facts. 6 Q. Based on the information you do know, do you 7 think it's reasonable for you to conclude that at 8 least one person has died of smoking? 9 A. I think it's reasonable to conclude that smoking 10 may have been an inciting factor, maybe one of 11 several, in a variety of diseases that can be lethal. 12 Q. Do you believe it's more likely than not that at 13 least one person has died because of smoking? 14 A. Died because of smokinc. 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. We're back to causation. I don't -- I don't 17 know that there's ever been a death certificate 18 issued that said "Cause of Eeath: Smoking." 19 Q. And until you see a deazh certificate that says 20 "Cause of Death: Smoking," you will not agree that 21 at least one person has died because of smoking. 22 A. No. Because there are disease processes. 23 Smoking may contribute to a number of disease 24 processes, and we've talked about that. And the 25 reasonable view is that smoking is a risk factor for STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 L,r f i`S ~f f i 0'°`f' 3017

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:37:48 04:37:52 04:37:54 04:38:00 04:38:06 04:38:08 04:38:12 04:38:14 04:38:16 04:38:18 04:38:20 04:38:26 04:38:32 04:38:34 04:38:38 04:38:38 04:38:40 04:38:42 04:38:46 04:38:46 04:38:50 04:38:52 04:38:54 04:38:56 04:38:58 208 1 lung cancer, for emphysema, for vascular disease, for 2 coronary artery disease. 3 Q. Do you believe it's more likely than not that 4 smoking has caused cancer in at least one person? 5 A. Will you define cause for me? 6 Q. I'm going to define it in the sense you used it 7 in front of the committee when you were asked do you 8 believe that smoking causes cancer and you responded 9 no, sir. So let's use that definition. 10 A. That's the scientific definition. 11 I know of no reports of anyone dying of 12 smoking. People die of disease process, of abnormal 1,3 physiology, of cell. deregulation, of proliferative 14 processes, of metastatic disease. 15 Q. I'm going to move to strike as non-responsive. 16 I don't think you heard my question. 17 A. Yes, I heard your question. 18 Q. My question is: Do you believe it's more likely 19 than not that smoking has caused cancer in at least 20 one person? 21 A. Define cause for me. 22 Q. Sir, we've went through this once and I'm not 23 going to go through it again. 24 A. Well I've been through it numerous times and I 25 don't want to go through it again either, but you STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 af" T O I I N 043018

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 04:39:00 04:39:04 04:39:12 04:39:16 04:39:20 04:39:26 04:39:28 04:39:28 04:39:30 04:39:36 04:39:40 04:39:42 04:39:44 04:39:48 04:39:50 04:39:54 04:39:56 04:40:00 04:40:00 04:40:10 04:40:10 04:40:12 04:40:18 04:40:20 04:40:22 209 1 keep asking -- using the word "cause," and I've 2 explained to you that if you're talking about cause 3 of death, it is going to be coronary artery disease 4 or myocardial infarction, it is going to be 5 squamous-cell carcinoma of the lung, metastatic, it 6 is going to be atherosclerotic disease, extensive. 7 Those are causes of death. 8 Q. Okay. Again I'm -- 9 A. Now smoking may have contributed to those 10 pathophysiologic processes, and everybody knows 11 that. This is not -- this is not unique knowledge to 12 me. 13 Q. Move to strike as non-responsive. 14 I'm not asking about death here. Okay? So I'd 15 ask that you listen to my question. Would you agree 16 that it's more likely than not that smoking has 17 caused cancer in at least one human being? 18 A. If you will define the word "cause" for me, I'll 19 answer that question. 20 Q. You can't answer that question without going 21 through the definition of cause; correct? 22 A. No, because people develop disease processes to 23 which smoking may contribute, and that's -- this is 24 a -- this is a known fact and it's been known for a 25 hundred years. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C (!'! I IN 0 1 ta.+` 0 19

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:40:24 04:40:28 04:40:28 04:40:30 04:40:32 04:40:34 04:40:36 04:40:38 04:40:42 04:40:44 04:40:44 04:40:46 04:40:48 04:40:48 04:40:52 04:40:54 04:40:54 04:40:56 04:40:56 04:40:58 04:41:00 04:41:02 04:41:02 04:41:04 210 1 Q. Do you believe that smoking is -- has been a 2 substantial contributing factor to lung disease in at 3 least one person? 4 A. Well "substantial. contributing factor" is a 5 legal term. 6 Q. And you're familiar with the legal term; 7 correct? 8 A. No, I'm not familiar with it. 9 Q. Well you've testified numerous times in numerous 10 cases as a medical malpractice expert. I'm certain 11 you do actually have an understanding of that term. 12 A. As a layman. 13 MR. MERRITT: Well I'm going to object to 14 your assertion. You can ask questions, but you 15 can't -- 16 Q. You've testified as an expert and you have used 17 that term in your expert testimony previously; 18 haven't you, sir? 19 A. Have I used that term? 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. I don't know that I have. 22 Q. You've expressed causation opinions in 23 malpractice cases; haven't you, sir? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You understand that causation in legal terms is STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C TR PIN 04 30'2210

( ` 04:41:08 1 04:41:10 2 04:41:10 3 04:41:12 4 04:41:16 5 04:41:20 6 04:41:20 7 04:41:22 8 04:41:24 9 04:41:26 10 04:41:28 11 04:41:30 12 04:41:36 13 04:41:36 14 04:41:40 15 04:41:42 16 04:41:44 17 04:41:46 18 04:41:50 19 04:41:52 20 04:41:54 21 04:41:58 22 04:41:58 23 04:42:02 24 25 C O N F I D E N T I A L 211 defined as either more likely than not or a substantial contributing factor; correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Let's use that definition. Using that definition, is smoking a substantial contributing factor to lung cancer in at least one human being? A. I don't know. Q. Is smoking a substantial contributing factor to heart disease in at least one human being? A. I don't know. Q. Is smoking a substantial contributing factor to arterial sclerosis in at least one human being? A. I don't know. Q. Is smoking a substantial contributing factor to strokes in at least one human being? A. I don't know. Q. Is smoking a substantial contributing factor to emphysema in at least one human being? A. I don't know. And the reason I don't know the answers to your question is because "substantial contributing factor" is not a medical term, it's a legal term. Q. And it's a legal term that you've used before; correct? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 dF I R l-17 1 4.^ I 30frmn 1

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:42:04 04:42:06 04:42:10 04:42:10 04:42:12 04:42:24 04:42:28 04:42:34 04:42:36 04:42:40 04:42:40 04:42:44 04:42:48 04:42:52 04:42:54 04:42:58 04:43:02 04:43:04 04:43:06 04:43:08 04:43:10 04:43:12 04:43:14 04:43:14 04:43:16 212 1 A. Well I don't know that I've ever used the term. 2 Q. It's a legal term that's been used in -- in 3 doing medical malpractice suits and in giving 4 testimony about causation; correct? 5 A. I don't know that I have ever used such a term. 6 Risk factor, contributing factor, all are acceptable, 7 and smoking certainly is implicated. 8 Q. Will you admit or agree that smoking is a 9 substantial contributing factor to chronic 10 obstructive pulmonary disease in at least one human 11 being? 12 A. Again, I don't know because I don't understand 13 the legal implications of "substantial contributing 14 factor" as opposed to "risk factor" or "contributing 15 cause." 16 Q. Let's then use the definition of cause as more 17 likely than not. Okay? Would you agree that it's 18 more likely than not that smoking has caused lung 19 cancer in at least one human being? 20 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to object to the 21 form of that question. 22 A. No, I can't go along with that because you're -- 23 you're trying to get me to change my definitions of 24 cause. 25 Q. No. I'm asking you to use my definition of STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Lw~' T/ 4 / 7 I~l V'  b." •of' Emp 4st

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:43:18 04:43:20 04:43:22 04:43:22 04 :43 :24 04:43:26 04:43:28 04:43:32 04:43:34 04:43:42 04:43:46 04:43:52 04:43:54 04:43:56 04:43:56 04:44:00 04:44:02 04:44:12 04:44:14 04:44:16 04:44:18 04:44:20 04:44:26 04:44:32 04:44:40 213 1 cause, sir. 2 A. I'm not -- I'm not going to do that. 3 Q. Okay. So you refuse to use my definition of 4 cause. 5 A. I do because it's not scientific. 6 Q. You're only going to use your definition of 7 cause. 8 A. No. I have explained repeatedly that I 9 understand the lay definition of cause and I 10 understand the simplistic approach to various 11 diseases by saying smoking causes suc:h and such a 12 disease process, but on the scientific basis, this -- 13 this simply is inaccurate. 14 Q. Okay. Well let's use the lay definition of 15 cause. 16 Using the lay definition of cause, do you agree 17 that smoking causes cancer? 18 A. The lay definition of cause can be accepted when 19 talking about lung cancer, but it is certainly not a 20 universal event. 21 Q. Do you agree that, using the lay definition of 22 cause, that smoking causes cancer? 23 A. I don't know how we can say this in any 24 different terms. I've said it so many times. I 25 accept the Surgeon General's warning that smoking may STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 c "r R H N 0 43" 0 2- 3-

C O N F I D E N:' I A L 214 04:44:42 04:44:44 04:44:48 04:44:50 04:44:52 04:44:52 04:44:56 04:45:00 04:45:02 04:45:04 04:45:06 04:45:14 04:45:14 04:45:14 04:45:14 04:45:14 04:45:14 04 :45:16 04:45:20 04:45:22 04:45:26 04:45:28 04:45:30 04:45:32 04:45:32 1 cause cancer. 2 Q. Okay. I'm not asking 3 using the lay definition -- "may. ~~ I'm asking you, 4 You've refused to answer a question as to 5 whether it's more likely than not that smoking causes 6 cancer; correct? 7 A. Back to square one. 8 Q. Okay. Well let's just -- :et's ;ust make sure 9 that -- that I understand your --estimony. If I 10 define -- 11 A. Well you -- you understand it perfectly well. I 12 know the risks of smoking -- 13 Q. Sir -- 14 A. -- and I am -- 15 Q. Sir, don't -- 16 A. -- I am not a member of the Flat Earth Society. 17 Q. I'm going to move to strike that as 18 non-responsive. And sir, I'll ask you to not 19 interrupt my question. Okay? It makes for a bad 20 record, and I'd like to keep the record clear. 21 I've asked you questions where I've defined 22 cause as more likely than not and you've refused to 23 answer those questions; correct? 24 MR. MERRITT: Well that isn't -- 25 A. No, that's not correct. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 E~T R 1-11N 0 43 02 4

('1 C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:45:34 04:45:36 04:45:36 04:45:38 04:45:42 04:45:46 04:45:46 04:45:52 04:45:54 04:45:58 04:46:02 04:46:04 04:46:06 04:46:12 04:46:20 04:46:22 04:46:28 04:46:28 04:46:32 04:46:34 04:46:38 04:46:40 04:46:42 04:46:44 04:46:48 215 1 MR. MERRITT: If that's a characterization, 2 that isn't an accurate characterization of what he 3 said. 4 MR. O'FALLON: Okay. 5 Q. Using the definition of cause as meaning more 6 likely than not, will you admit that smoking causes 7 cancer? 8 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to object to the 9 form of that. Let -- let me just interrupt. "More 10 likely than not" is not a definition of cancer, 11 that's -- that's a definition of -- of -- off proof. 12 I-- you know, we're :!ow attaching words that have no 13 connection whatsoever. It's just -- 14 I object to the form of the question. 15 If you understand it, you can -- 16 A. I would answer that smoking may be a 17 contributing cause or risk factor in certain 18 diseases. 19 Q. Okay. To what probability? Is it more likely 20 than not that it causes certain diseases? 21 A. Well I think vou can refer to the statistics 22 we've talked about previously: More smokers get lung 23 cancer than do non-smokers. 24 Q. Okay. So is it your testimony that it's more 25 likely than not that cigarette smoking causes lung STIRE1IALT & ASSOCIATES p.o. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 i.r i i"ti H N 0 4 02 ~.'

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04 :46 :48 04:46:54 04:46:56 04:46:58 04:47:02 04:47:04 04:47:08 04:47:10 04:47:12 04:47:14 04:47:16 04:47:18 04:47:20 04:47:22 04:47:24 04:47:26 04:47:28 04:47:32 04:47:34 04:47:38 04:47:40 04:47:48 04:47:52 04:47:58 04:48:00 216 1 cancer? 2 A. I will not answer that question because I would 3 have to redefine cause again. 4 Q. I'm asking you to use my definition, sir, in 5 this next lines of questions, the previous ones of 6 mine. So I'm going to ask it -- 7 I'm defining cause as more likely than not. S o 8 again, do you agree that it's more likely than not 9 that smoking causes cancer? 10 A. I will refuse to use your definition. 11 Q. Okay. Do you agree that it's more likely than 12 not that smoking causes heart disease? 13 A. I would like to redefine cause. 14 Q. I'm asking you to use my definition. 15 A. I can't use your definition because it's 16 inaccurate, scientifically inaccurate. 17 Q. Would you agree that it's more likely than not 18 that smoking causes arterial sclerosis? 19 A. Your definition of cause? 20 Q. Okay. Would you admit that it's more likely 21 than not that smoking causes strokes? 22 A. Stroke is caused by vascular abnormality, eith er 23 hemorrhage or -- or thrombosis. Does smoking 24 contribute to the vascular disease that predisposes 25 to stroke? Yes, it's a risk factor. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 wn` lsI V H!~! 'wf' !f'Ylr''N'WR1fq'

C_ C O N F I D E N T I A L 217 04:48:02 04:48:06 04:48:08 04:48:10 04:48:14 04:48:18 04:48:18 04:48:22 04:48:28 04:48:32 04:48:36 04:48:40 04:48:44 04:48:46 04:48:50 04:48:52 04:48:56 04:49:00 04:49:02 04:49:02 04:49:06 04:49:08 04:49:12 04:49:14 04:49:18 1 Q. Is it a substantial contributing factor? 2 A. I can't say that. That's a legal term. I can 3 say it's a contributing cause. 4 Q. To what probability, sir? 5 A. Well if it's a question of probability, we know 6 that it is a risk factor. 7 Q. But is it a cause? 8 A. No, not in the scientific sense. 9 Q. Okay. Is it more likely than not that smoking 10 causes chronic obstructive pulmc;nary disease? 11 A. Not if we define cause in the scientific sense. 12 Q. Do you agree or disagree that smoking is the 13 principal cause of chronic bronchitis and chronic 14 obstructive lung disease? 15 A. I would point out that genetic predisposition to 16 both of those conditions, particularly chronic 17 obstructive disease, emphysema, there is now genetic 18 proof of people who are highly susceptible. Those 19 people certainly should not add the additional risk 20 factor of smoking. 21 Q. You recall having your deposition taken in the 22 Mississippi case; correct? 23 A. I recall it. I don't recall the specifics. 24 Q. Okay. Your deposition was taken on, I would 25 think, March 18th of 1997; correct? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R M N 0 4 3" 0 *22.fy`

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:49:20 04:49:30 04:49:34 04:49:38 04 :49:42 04:49:44 04:49:46 04:49:46 04:49:48 04:49:50 04:49:56 04:49:58 04:50:00 04:50:02 04:50:12 04:50:12 04:50:12 04:50:12 04:50:18 04:50:22 04:50:24 04:50:28 04:50:30 04:50:32 218 1 A. That was one of them. 2 Q. Okay. You were asked, quote -- on page 92 -- 3 quote, "Do you agree or disagree with Dr. Rubin that 4 smoking is the principal cause of chronic bronchitis 5 and chronic obstructive lung disease?" And your 6 answer is, "I would agree with that." Do you recall 7 that testimony? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And is that still your testimony today, that -- 10 A. Dr. Rubin was speaking in -- in lay terms, and 11 that is not scientifically accurate or pathologically 12 accurate. He'd be the first to tell you that. 13 Q. Nonetheless, when you were asked, "Do you agree 14 or disagree with Dr. Rubin that smoking is the 15 principal cause of chronic bronchitis and chronic 16 obstructive lung disease?" you simply stated, 17 would agree with that;" correct? 18 A. I think we're probably following up on a 19 previous exposition of cause. °I 20 Q. But you can't testify that you're certain that 21 you were following up that exposition of cause; can 22 you? 23 A. Well I've done it in every deposition, and I 24 don't think there would be any exception there. 25 Q. In any event, it doesn't appear -- and I'm going STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR i fN f.++ 434.d ~ 8

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:50:34 04:50:36 04:50:38 04:50:42 04:50:42 04:50:44 04:50:46 04:50:46 04:50:50 04:50:52 04:50:56 04:51:00 04:51:02 04:51:08 04:51:10 04:51:12 04:51:14 04:51:18 04:51:20 04:51:20 04:51:22 04:51:30 04:51:34 04:51:38 04:51:42 219 1 to show you the question and show you the answer -- 2 it doesn't appear that you deviated or said anything 3 other than what I've read; correct, sir? 4 A. I would have to read -- 5 Q. I'm asking -- 6 A. -- through this. 7 Q. I'm asking you to read on page 92 the question 8 and answer that I previously cited. 9 A. I understand what you're asking me, but I-- I 10 would go back to the point that I'm certain that I 11 discussed with Mr. Motley the issues of causation and 12 the -- and the definitions thereof. 13 Q. Sir, would you read the question and wculd you 14 read the answer that I've just read. 15 A. "Do you agree or disagree with Dr. Rubin that 16 smoking is the principal cause of chronic bronchitis 17 and chronic obstructive lung disease?" 18 Q. And your answer was? 19 A. "I would agree with that." 20 Q. Okay. Can I have it back, please? 21 A. But that's out of context and it is -- it is not 22 accurate from the scientific point of view. The 23 risks of smoking for bronchitis and chronic 24 obstructive lung disease are well known, and no one 25 contends that. But do they initiate the disease? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C"r R H N 0 4 ,~0 2-2 R.

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:51:48 04:51:52 04:51:54 04:52:12 04:52:14 04:52:16 04:52:22 04:52:22 04:52:28 04:52:32 04:52:34 04:52:34 04:52:36 04:52:38 04:52:38 04:52:46 04:52:50 04:52:52 04:52:54 04:52:56 04:53:00 04:53:02 04:53:06 04:53:10 220 1 Bronchitis, possibly. Chronic obstructive disease 2 may be a genetic process. 3 Q. I'm going to move to strike all the last 4 comments, it's not responsive to any question. 5 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1160 was marked 6 for identification.) 7 BY MR. O'FALLON: 8 Q. Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1160 is the response to The 9 Council for Tobacco Research U.S.A., Inc. to 10 Plaintiffs' first set of requests for admissions. 11 You eventually certified these answers; correct, Dr. 12 Glenn? 13 A. Yes, I believe so. 14 Q. As a matter of fact, you signed them on the 18th 15 day of July, 1995; correct? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. You were asked numerous questions here as to 18 whether or not you will admit or deny that certain 19 diseases are caused by smoking; correct? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. And you denied each and every one; correct? 22 A. Well in -- in a sense. We don't take any 23 position as to whether smoking causes any disease. 24 Q. would you look at the last sentence of each and 25 every one of these responses and tell me what that STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 v.~' I I 4 f l N 043030

C O N F I D E N T I A L i 04:53:12 04:53:14 04:53:16 04:53:18 04 :53 :24 04:53:26 04:53:30 04:53:38 04:53:40 04:53:40 04 :53 :44 04:53:48 04:53:52 04:53:54 04:53:58 04:54:00 04:54:02 04:54:02 04:54:06 04:54:10 04:54:18 04:54:18 04:54:20 04:54:20 04 :54 :24 I 221 1 last sentence says. 2 A. "Accordingly, CTR denies this request." 3 Q. So you have denied each and every request for 4 admission; correct? 5 A. Based upon my definition of cause, which is 6 amplified in each answer. 7 Q. I'd like you to turn to page four, request 8 number six. Here you deny that smoking causes 9 chronic obstructive pulmonary disease; correct? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. And yet when you were asked the same question in 12 a deposition, you state that you thought that smoking 13 was the primary cause of chronic obstructive 14 pulmonary disease. 15 A. I had already defined my terminology and I'd 16 already been through that argument. 17 Q. And you understood that when you made that 18 statement you were under oath; correct? 19 A. I did. 20 Q. Did you have a chance to read and sign that 21 deposition that I just showed you, sir? 22 A. Did I have a chance to -- 23 Q. Read and sign that deposition that I showed you? 24 A. I can't answer that. 25 MR. MERRITT: I'm not sure whether STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800 -553-1953

C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:54:26 04:54:26 04:54:28 04:54:30 04:54:30 04:54:38 04:54:42 04:54:56 04:55:00 04:55:06 04:55:06 04:55:10 04:55:14 04:55:22 04:55:28 04:55:34 04:55:36 04:55:40 04:55:42 04:55:46 04:55:48 04:55:48 04:55:50 04 : 55 : 54 222 1 Signature may have been waived in that. I don't 2 know. 3 Q. Do you recall whether you ever went back and 4 made any changes to that transcript? 5 A. I don't remember. 6 MR. O'FALLON: Why don't we take a break. 7 THE REPORTER: Off the record, please. 8 (Recess taken.) 9 BY MR. O'FALLON: 10 Q. I'd like to go back to the previous exhibit, the 11 response to the Council of Tobacco Research, U.S.A., 12 Inc. to Plaintiffs' first set of requests for 13 admission, and I'd specifically like to look at page 14 f ive of that document, request number 7. 15 (Discussion off the stenographic record.) 16 A. All right, sir. Where? 17 Q. Request number seven, page five. 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Request number seven asks you to, quote, "Admit 20 that cigarettes (or nicotine) are addictive," and the 21 response is, first, that "CTR does not take any 22 position as to whether cigarettes or nicotine are 23 addictive;" correct? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. However, it states that you, and apparently STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Cl R I ! I 1 l ! 0430,31e2

(.. C O N F I D E N T I A L 04:56:00 04:56:08 04:56:08 04:56:10 04:56:10 04:56:16 04:56:20 04:56:20 04:56:20 04:56:30 04:56:36 04:56:40 04:56:42 04:56:46 04:56:48 04:56:50 04:56:56 04:57:00 04:57:04 04:57:10 04:57:16 04:57:24 04:57:30 04:57:34 04:57:38 223 1 Mr. -- or Dr. McAllister, do not believe that 2 cigarette smoking and nicotine are addictive based on 3 your understanding of the meaning of the term 4 "addictive;" correct? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. You state that you do believe that cigarettes 7 and nicotine are habituating; correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. What is your definition of addiction? 10 A. Well I think addiction implies more than simply 11 dependence on or enjoyment of the effects of using 12 certain chemical compounds. 13 Q. Do you have a scientific definition of 14 addiction, and can you please, then, tell me what the 15 factors are for determining that? 16 A. No, I don't. I'm not an expert in the field of 17 addiction, but I am a qualified observer. I don't 18 believe I've seen anybody kill for a cigarette as 19 they do for cocaine. I don't believe I -- that there 20 are any factors which mitigate against stopping 21 smoking or stopping the use of nicotine that would 22 imply serious physiological consequences. Best 23 witness to the fact that smoking is not an addiction 24 is the millions of Americans who have stopped 25 smoking, including myself, and I -- I experienced no STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 \..F l s I 1 1 1 I 4l 0 43 •.1' ,33

C O N F I D E N^ I A L 224 04:57:44 04:57:46 04:57:52 04:57:56 04:58:00 04:58:04 04:58:08 04:58:10 04:58:12 04:58:14 04:58:18 04:58:22 04 : 58 : 24 04:58:30 04:58:32 04:58:34 04:58:38 04:58:40 04:58:44 04:58:44 04:58:46 04:58:50 04:58:56 04:58:58 04:59:02 1 withdrawal symptoms in stopping smoking nor I think 2 do most people. I know that there are some people 3 who are significantly habituated to smoking, and it 4 may be the nicotine effect, it may be other factors, 5 but I don't think that we can categorize addiction -- 6 this is a purely personal opinion because I -- again, 7 I'm not an expert, but even the experts have waffled 8 in their definitions. The Surgeon General's 9 definition has changed several --imes. 10 Q. Do you accept the Surgeon General's most recent 11 definition of addiction and/or dependence as stated 12 in the 1988 Surgeon General's report? 13 A. I am not familiar with it. I -- I read it at 14 the time, but I can't recall exactly what was said. 15 Q. It appears to me that you're using what I would 16 call a lay definition of addiction. Is that 17 accurate? 18 A. I think that's more accurate than not. While I 19 am a professional, I'm certainly not an expert in the 20 field of addiction. 21 Q. You have not analyzed whether or not cigarette 22 smoking and nicotine meet the criteria set out by the 23 American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and 24 Statistical Manual for Substance Dependence; correct? 25 A. Well I'm not a psychiatrist in the first place. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR I 1 N 01 301wF 4

/ 1 04:59:04 1 04:59:10 2 04:59:14 3 04:59:16 4 04:59:18 5 04:59:20 6 04:59:26 7 04:59:28 8 04:59:30 9 04:59:30 10 04:59:38 11 04:59:42 12 04:59:46 13 04:59:50 14 04:59:54 15 04:59:56 16 04:59:58 17 05:00:00 18 05:00:02 19 05:00:06 20 05:00:14 21 05:00:18 22 05:00:20 23 05:00:24 24 05:00:26 25 C O N F I D E N T I A L 225 In the second place, I think that even the experts are -- have disparate views of psychiatric definition as well as the Surgeon General's definition. Q. I'm going to move to strike as non-responsive. My question was that you have not analyzed whether or not cigarette smoking and nicotine meet the criteria set out by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Substance Dependence; correct? A. I have not. Q. Nor have you used any scientifically accepted definition of addiction in apparently answering our request for admissions; correct? A. I think the definitions that I gave you are scientifically acceptable. Q. I thought your testimony was that it was fair to characterize your definition that you used here today as a lay definition. A. Well I think it would be accepted by most layman, but I think it's also based in -- in science, the fact that smoking cessation does not carry with it the physiologic impact of cessation of addicting drugs. Q. Do you feel you're more qualified on this issue than the Surgeon General of the United States? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C" T R H N 0 4.~03 5. .1

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:00:30 05:00:38 05:00:40 05:00:40 05:00:42 05:00:52 05:00:54 05:01:04 05:01:10 05:01:12 05:01:16 05:01:22 05:01:24 05:01:26 05:01:30 05:01:32 05:01:36 05:01:40 05:01:40 05:01:42 0 5 : 0 1 : 4 6 05:01:50 05:01:56 05:01:58 226 1 A. No, sir. The Surgeon General clearly had 2 experts in the area to help to draft the statement. 3 Q. And as you've conceded, you're not an expert in 4 this area; correct? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. I think you've also denied in the request for 7 admissions that cigarette smoking causes emohysema; 8 right? 9 A. We return to the issue of -- of causation and 10 the definition. Most certainly smoking is a risk 11 factor, particularly in those people who have the 12 genetic predisposition to emphysema. 13 Q. Is it your testimony that there definitely is a 14 genetic predisposition to emphysema? 15 A. In some patients. 16 Q. And what's the basis of that conclusion? 17 A. The basis is work done at the University of 18 Colorado that demonstrates a genetic abnormality that 19 accounts for perhaps as many as 20 percent of 20 patients with emphysema. 21 Q. How about the other 80 percent, doctor? 22 A. Well we don't know. We've just scratched the 23 surface on this genetic business. We're progressing 24 as a fairly good clip toward a better understanding 25 of the genetic basis of disease. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 S.mr I I! ! 1N 0It 3+.f' S.M' 6

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:02:00 05:02:06 05:02:08 05:02:10 05:02:14 05:02:16 05:02:18 05:02:22 05:02:28 05:02:30 05:02:30 05:02:32 05:02:38 05:02:40 05:02:48 05:02:50 05:02:54 05:02:54 05:02:56 05:02:56 05:02:56 05:03:02 05:03:02 05:03:06 05:03:10 227 1 Q. And again you're not certain that, whatever 2 genetic basis it may be, it 4sn't aggravated by 3 cigarette smoke; correct? 4 A. I beg your pardon? I have just said that I 5 think smoking may aggravate a preexisting genetic 6 condition. Q. So in that case, would it be a substantial 8 contributing factor to bringing about the disease? 9 A. Well "substantial contributing factor" is a 10 legal term. I would say it's certainly a risk 11 factor, and I think somebody that's got a 12 predisposition -- predetermined genetic abnormality 13 which can be identified and in which smoking is known 14 to be a risk factor should certainly be counseled 15 about the wisdom of smoking. 16 Q. They should be told to quit; correct? . 17 A. They should be told to never stop -- never 18 start. 19 Q. But if they started, they should be told to 20 quit. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And if you had a patient, you would tell them to 23 quit; correct? 24 A. Yes, and have done so. 25 Q. For emphysema patients? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CT R H N 0 4~~03 17

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:03:12 05:03:22 05:03:26 05:03:26 05:03:28 05:03:30 05:03:34 05:03:34 05:03:36 05:03:38 05:03:38 05:03:42 05:03:42 05:03:50 05:03:54 05:03:56 05:03:58 05:04:04 05:04:06 05:04:20 05:04:26 05:04:30 05:04:32 05:04:34 05:04:42 228 1 A. No. I don't treat emphysema . 2 Q. Are you aware of any researc h do ne by The 3 Council for Tobacco Research on i nhal ation tests with 4 dogs? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Are you aware of the researc h do ne at Battelle 7 Pacific Northwest Laboratories in Ric hland, 8 Washington? 9 A. Vaguely. That was before my tim e. 10 Q. But you've looked at the doc umen ts? 11 A. No. 12 Q. was that sponsored by CTR? 13 A. I think it was. 14 Q. And that research demonstra ed t at the dogs 15 there developed definite signs o f emp hysema; correct? 16 A. I'm not sure about that. I thin k there were 17 some questions. There were infl ammat ory changes 18 after exposure to intense smoke. 19 Q. I'm going to show you what' s bee n previously 20 marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 43 5. T his is a 21 document that's been previously marke d as Plaintiffs' 22 Exhibit -- what did I say, 435? 23 MR. FALKENSTEIN: Yes. 24 MR. MERRITT: 435, yes . 25 Q. 435. Has the Bates stamp n umber 1001801280 STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Ci R i i N ti.r+ 4303B

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:04:44 05:04:46 05:04:46 05:04:48 05:04:48 05:04:50 05:04:56 05:04:58 05:04:58 05:05:00 05:05:06 05:05:10 05:05:12 05:05:12 05:05:16 05:05:20 05:05:20 05:05:22 05:05:26 05:05:28 05:05:28 05:05:30 05:05:32 05:05:36 05:05:40 229 1 through 1283. 2 Have you seen this document previously, sir? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. This is a document from the files of Philip 5 Morris; correct? 6 A. It appears to be. 7 Q. This is a memo dated July 17th, 1974 from a R. 8 D. Carpenter to a Dr. T. S. Osdene; correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Do you know who Dr. Osdene is? 11 A. Yes. He was one of the research personnel at 12 Philip Morris, I believe, in their Richmond of=_ce. 13 Q. Okay. And how about Mr. Carpenter? 14 A. I don't know Mr. Carpenter. 15 Q. Okay. This involves a visit to Battelle Pacific 16 Northwest Laboratories, Richland, Washington, July 17 3rd, 1974; correct? 18 A. It's so labeled. 19 Q. He states that "Dr. Ray Palmer took me on a tour 20 of the Battelle Biological Division;" correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. "We started the day with a 25-mile drive i::to 23 the Hanford Reservation, where they have their 24 smoking dogs located. When they started the project 25 over 10 years ago they needed a source of short-lived STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 i.r f f^'. NN 4.+i 43039

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:05:42 05:05:46 05:05:50 05:05:52 05:05:54 05:05:56 05:05:58 05:06:00 05:06:00 05:06:08 05:06:22 05:06:24 05:06:26 05:06:28 05:06:36 05:06:38 05:06:38 05:06:38 05:06:40 05:06:40 05:06:44 05:06:46 05:06:48 05:06:52 230 1 reactor by-products, so the lab was located near the 2 cooling-water discharge line from a reactor. The 3 reactor is now shut down and they are testing radon 4 daughter activity as well as the cigaret smoke." 5 Correct? 6 A. That's what is indicated. 7 Q. Okay. Does this appear to be the laboratory 8 that was being funded by CTR? 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. I'm going to show you a second document that I 11 need marked. I just found this document. 12 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1161 was marked 13 for identification.) 14 BY MR. O'FALLON: 15 Q. 1161 is a document Bates stamp numbered 16 1000323262, it's dated April 5th, 1978. Do you have 17 that document in front of you? 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. MERRITT: 1968? 20 MR. 0'FALLON: I'm sorry, 1968. You're 21 correct. 22 Q. This states that "Some of the cigaret company 23 research directors have received through their legal 24 departments copy of a Council for Tobacco Research- 25 U.S.A. report on the inhalation project being carried STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 t.x f w R Hf'f 043040

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:06:56 05:06:58 05:07:00 05:07:00 05:07:04 05:07:06 05:07:08 05:07:08 05:07:12 05:07:16 05:07:18 05:07:22 05:07:26 05:07:30 05:07:32 05:07:34 05:07:38 05:07:42 05:07:46 05:07:50 05:07:52 05:07:58 05:08:00 05:08:00 05:08:06 231 1 out under C.T.R. sponsorshi-p by Battelle Northwest 2 under the direction of a chief investigator named 3 Bair." Correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. It says, "This project involves inhalation of 6 smoke by beagles which have been previously exposed 7 to radioactive materials;" correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. It says, "I understand this report was sent out 10 by Dr. Hockett on or about February 23rd." 11 Based on this document and the description of 12 the research facilities in the previous document, 13 does it appear that the Battelle laboratory that's 14 being discussed in the July 17th, 1974 document is in 15 fact the research lab that was being sponsored in 16 part by CTR? 17 A. It would appear to be. But this was in 1968, 30 18 years ago, and I was not affiliated with CTR at that 19 time, so I can't attest to that. But I know that CTR 20 did have contractual research projects with Battelle 21 at one time in the past and that it did involve 22 exposure of beagle dogs to cigarette smoke. 23 Q. And the results of that investigation were 24 published? 25 A. I don't know about the publication. I do know, STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR HN 043041

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:08:08 05:08:20 05:08:22 05:08:26 05:08:34 05:08:34 05:08:38 05:08:38 05:08:40 05:08:46 05:08:48 05:08:52 05:08:56 05:09:00 05:09:02 05:09:04 05:09:04 05:09:06 05:09:08 05:09:10 05:09:12 05:09:14 05:09:18 05:09:20 05:09:24 232 1 I think generally, the results. I think the dogs 2 developed chronic bronchitis and some other changes, 3 but there was a question of whether the 4 tracheostomies were appropriately performed, whether 5 some of the changes that were seen were traumatic and 6 surgical rather than inflammatory and smoke-induced. 7 Q. Now you said this was contract research? 8 A. I believe it was. 9 Q. Contract research is different than the typical 10 grant research in that the CTR obtains control over 11 the results of contract research; correct? 12 A. Generally speaking, but it depends on the 13 contract. You know, contract research is a common 14 thing. It happens with the NIH, the National Cancer 15 Institute, all of the institutes of health. 16 Q. I understand your testimony -- 17 A. And the contract is different from project to 18 project. '-g Q But generally you don't have the complete 20 independence, the researcher doesn't have the 21 complete independence that they would with grant 22 research because there are certain contractual 23 requirements that the researcher must meet; correct? 24 A. It will vary from one contract to another. 25 Q. For instance, Dr. Hamburger was required to STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C1 a R 1 1N 0430 h fwv

( . C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:09:28 05:09:30 05:09:32 05:09:32 05:09:34 05:09:36 05:09:36 05:09:40 05:09:42 05:09:44 05:09:48 05:09:52 05:09:56 05:10:00 05:10:02 05:10:04 05:10:06 05:10:08 05:10:12 05:10:14 05:10:14 05:10:20 05:10:24 05:10:26 233 1 submit his research to the SAB for approval before 2 they would agree to publication; correct? 3 A. I believe that's true, but that's hearsay as far 4 as I'm concerned. 5 Q. Well -- 6 A. But Dr. Hamburger published -- all of his work 7 was published. 8 Q. Certainly. But he didn't do it without numerous 9 letters from the CTR about whether he should or not; 1C correct? 11 A. I -- I'm not privy to all that correspondence. 12 I know that Dr. Hamburger was embittered because his 13 research support was withdrawn after 12 fairly 14 unfruitful years of investigation. 15 Q. Whether Dr. Hamburger was a decent researcher or 16 not I'll leave to other people. But my point is that 17 the contract research fundamentally differs from 18 grant research in that the independence of the 19 researcher is not as complete; correct? 20 A. Not -- not necessarily. That's my answer. It 21 varies from one contract to another. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. And I don't know the terms of the contract 24 involved here. 25 Q. Was this a special project? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 i- C{ R 1 ) N i..'+43043

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:10:28 05:10:36 05:10:38 05:10:40 05:10:46 05:10:46 05:10:50 05:10:56 05:10:58 05:11:00 05:11:04 05:11:04 05:11:06 05:11:08 05:11:12 05:11:12 05:11:14 05:11:16 05:11:18 05:11:22 05:11:22 05:11:26 05:11:30 05:11:32 05:11:32 234 1 A. I don't know that. I think it was a contract 2 and I think it was probably initiated by the 3 Scientific Advisory Board, but I don't know that. 4 Much of the contract research that was done was 5 initiated through CTR itself. 6 Q. But some of it wasn't? 7 A. I don't know the answer to that. 8 Q. At the second paragraph of the document that's 9 been previously marked it states that "The dog 10 inhalation laboratory is equipped so that 18 dogs" -- 11 A. You'll have to give me a minute to find that. 12 All right. 13 Q. Okay. It states that the -- quote, "The dog 14 inhalation laboratory is equipped so that 18 dogs are 15 exposed at a time;" correct? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. "Two technicians handle 9 dogs each;" right? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. "The dogs seldom showed any signs of discomfort, 20 and some even seemed to enjoy the smoke;" correct? 21 A. That's what it says. 22 Q. "If the dogs did exhibit distress the operator 23 adjusted the smoking mask so that the smoke was 24 slightly diluted with air;" correct? 25 A. That's what it says. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 4x TR HN 043044

C. C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:11:36 05:11:36 05:11:40 05:11:56 05:12:00 05:12:02 05:12:04 05:12:06 05:12:06 05:12:08 05:12:12 05:12:16 05:12:16 05:12:18 05:12:20 235 1 Q. So these dogs are apparently smoking via masks; 2 correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. They wouldn't be smoking due to a tracheostomy; 5 correct? 6 A. These dogs were, yes. 7 Q.. Okay. So there wouldn't be any issue of trauma 8 I think you tried to testify about earlier. 9 A. Well it is traumatic to put a mask on a dog. 10 Q. Well, but it's not going to cause any trauma 11 down in the lungs like you do with a tracheostomy; 12 correct? 13 A. Yeah, yeah. 14 Q. Says "Each dog is given smoke twice daily, for 7 15 days a week;" correct? 16 A. Correct. But you must recognize, this is the 17 first time I've seen this document and I was not 18 given time to read it. 19 Q. Okay. It also states that "The Battelle people 20 all feel very strongly that animals must be exposed 21 for 7 days per week if the test is to be meaningful;" 22 correct? 23 A. That's what it says. 24 Q. "The dogs smoke for 1 hour in the morning and 1 25 hour in the afternoon;" correct? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR t f t°f 0'"°f' 30'°7 5-

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:12:22 05:12:24 05:12:28 05:12:28 05:12:30 05:12:32 05:12:34 05:12:34 05:12:36 05:12:36 05:12:42 05:12:42 05:12:44 05:12:50 05:12:58 05:13:00 05:13:02 05:13:02 05:13:04 05 :13 :08 05 :13 :10 05 :13 :12 05:13:16 05:13:24 05:13:24 236 1 A. That's what it says. 2 Q. Says "They did not seem to cough during the 3 smoking period, but some of them did cough after 4 their smoking was over;" correct? 5 A. That's what it says. 6 Q. "Dr. Palmer said that they were showing definite 7 signs of emphysema;" correct? 8 A. That's what it says. 9 Q. Was that reported in the public literature? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. You would agree that if it wasn't reported, it 12 should have been; correct? 13 A. I don't know. I think this would have been a 14 judgment that somebody made in 1974 either at 15 Battelle or at CTR or somewhere along the line, but 16 there are too many factors that would have to be 17 considered. 18 Q. That would certainly be strong evidence that 19 smoking causes emphysema; correct? 20 A. I'm not sure of that. 21 Q. Got dogs smoking cigarettes and they appear to 22 be getting emphysema; correct? 23 A. Well the statement here is "Dr. Palmer said that 24 they are showing definite signs of emphysema." Did 25 they actually have emphysema or not? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 i..r TR f f N 04,3046

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:13:24 05:13:26 05:13:28 05:13:30 05:13:36 05:13:38 05:13:40 05:13:40 05:13:44 05:13:48 05:13:48 05:13:50 05:13:54 05:13:54 05:13:54 05:13:56 05:14:00 05:14:04 05:14:06 05:14:10 05:14:14 05:14:20 05:14:22 237 1 There's much that I don't know here. This is a 2 very incomplete report. 3 Q. At least at this point in time they were showing 4 definite signs of emphysema; correct? 5 A. "Dr. Palmer said that they are showing definite 6 signs of emphysema." 7 Q. Do you know whether any representative of The 8 Council for Tobacco Research ever went public and 9 said we've been doing inhalation studies with dogs in 10 which the dogs have now shown definite signs of 11 emphysema? 12 A. You mean 30 years ago. 13 Q. Well 1974 is 23 years ago. 14 A. Twenty-three years ago. 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. No, I don't know. 17 Q. And 1973 is also approximately 19 years after 18 the Council for Tobacco Research was organized; 19 correct? 20 A. Yes, I guess so. 21 Q. So you're now some 19 years into the research 22 program done by The Council for Tobacco Research; 23 correct? 24 A. What is your implication there, The Council for 25 Tobacco Research was suppressing this information? I STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CJR HN 0`"i' 3S..d4?"

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:14:24 05:14:30 05:14:34 05:14:38 05:14:38 05:14:40 05:14:44 05:14:46 05:14:52 05:14:56 05:15:00 05:15:06 05:15:14 05:15:18 05:15:20 05:15:22 05:15:26 05:15:28 05:15:32 05:15:36 05:15:38 05:15:40 05:15:42 05:15:48 05:15:50 238 1 don't think so. 2 Q. I move to strike as non-responsive. 3 My question was: So you're now some 19 years 4 into the research program done by The Council for 5 Tobacco Research; correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Now you would agree that t:e imp_ication of the 8 Frank Statement and subsequent statements by the TIRC 9 and the CTR was that the CTR and TIRC was going to 10 undertake meaningful research on the issue of whether 11 smoking caused disease; correct? 12 A. The implication of the Frank Sta:~ement was that 13 the TIRC/CTR would sponsor research, valid biomedical 14 research into questions of smoking and health, and 15 that was done. 16 Q. It also has to be meaningful research; that is, 17 it's got to be research that's lookinc directly at 18 the issue of whether smoking causes d'-sease; correct? 19 A. Yes. I think that the example just given of the 20 exposure of animals to smoke is -- is certainly 21 pertinent. 22 Q. Okay. And again that was contract research as 23 opposed to grant research; correct? 24 A. Well there are -- 25 It's clear that I need to explain contract STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Cf i."h I f N 04ti 1G048

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:15:54 05:15:58 05:16:02 05:16:08 05:16:12 05:16:16 05:16:22 05:16:24 05:16:28 05:16:30 05:16:34 05:16:40 05:16:48 05:16:52 05:16:56 05:17:02 05:17:02 05:17:04 05:17:06 05:17:08 05:17:08 05:17:12 05:17:14 05:17:16 239 1 research. Most of the time contracts for research 2 were issued because a project was of such magnitude 3 and of such expense and required such elaborate 4 support that no single investigator would have 5 submitted a grant application along the lines of the 6 proposed project. As a consequence, a contract is 7 drawn to assure the investigating agency -- and it 8 usually is an agency, a large laboratory with many 9 people involved -- assure them of continuing support 10 of the project. No university or independent 11 investigator would have undertaken a project of this 12 magnitude, I don't th_nk; it required too much 13 strategic planning and tactical equipment in order to 14 mount the project. And most projects -- most 15 contracts are within that framework. 16 Q. I'm going to move to strike as non-responsive. 17 My question again -- 18 A. I'm trying -- I'm trying to be responsive. I'm 19 trying to make it clear that the reason for a 20 contract is different for -- from the usual grant 21 application. 22 Q. I'm going to move to strike as non-responsive. 23 And again, my question was: This was in fact 24 contract research, to the best of your recollection; 25 correct? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 ~.`fiR t1N 043049.

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:17:16 05:17:22 05:17:26 05:17:30 05:17:34 05:17:38 05:17:40 05:17:44 05:17:46 05:17:48 05:17:50 05:17:52 05:17:52 05:17:54 05:17:56 05:17:58 05 :18 :02 05:18:08 05:18:14 05:18:16 05:18:18 05:18:20 05:18:24 05:18:24 05:18:26 240 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. It's certainly not your testimony that major 3 research institutions and universities turn down huge 4 block grants of money to do research; correct? 5 MR. MERRITT: Object to the form of the 6 question. 7 A. Do universities turn down -- 8 Q. Huge block grants of money to do research. 9 A. What do you man by a "block grant?" 10 Q. Well a grant-in-aid. I mean your grants were 11 basically made to researchers; correct? 12 A. Well a block grant is different from a 13 grant-in-aid. 14 Q. Well a grant-in-aid, or whatever kind of grant 15 that was made by CTR, were supposed to be grants of 16 money for research that was unfettered and 17 independent of any control by the CTR; correct? 18 A. Well grants are made with the express inter_z 19 that the investigator is free to pursue the 20 investigation and to report the results, and they are 21 encouraged to do so. 22 Q. And they don't have to clear those results 23 through any organization like the CTR; correct? 24 A. Do not. 25 Q. And contract research typically has, as a STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 [vr f R Ni'i 043050

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:18:30 05:18:34 05:18:34 05:18:36 05:18:38 05:18:40 05:18:42 05:18:46 05:18:46 05:18:48 05:18:52 05:19:18 05:19:20 05:19:22 05:19:32 05:19:46 05:19:46 05:19:46 05:19:48 05:19:52 05:19:52 05:19:56 05:20:02 05:20:04 241 1 pre-design, that the results have to be cleared 2 before the contracting body, such as the CTR, prior 3 to publication; correct? 4 A. I answered that previously, Mr. O'Fallon. The 5 contracts vary from one project to another. 6 Q. And you can't tell me as you sit here today 7 whether Battelle was under a contract that required 8 them to submit that information to you -- 9 A. I can't -- 10 Q. -- prior to publication or not; correct? 11 A. Well I imagine that if there was a contract, it 12 still exists. 13 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1-162 was marked 14 for identification.) 15 BY MR. O'FALLON: 16 Q. This is a document Bates stamp numbered 17 301083806. It's dated April 7 -- it's dated 17 April 18 to 12 May 1958, "REPORT ON VISIT TO U.S.A. and 19 CANADA;" correct? 20 A. Is this not the report of the same visit we 21 discussed previously? They look like the same 22 players. 23 Q. It might well be, but this was produced 24 separately. Whether it's contained in the previous 25 document, I'm not exactly sure. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 iJ rF TI S Hf I 0305OO

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:20:06 05:20:08 05:20:08 05:20:10 05:20:16 05:20:18 05:20:20 05:20:22 05:20:26 05:20:28 05:20:30 05:20:32 05:20:34 05:20:36 05:20:36 05:20:40 05:20:44 05:20:48 05:20:52 05:20:54 05:20:56 05:21:00 05:21:02 05:21:04 242 1 This is entitled "ATTITUDE OF U.S. INDUSTRY TO 2 BIOLOGICAL TESTING;" correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Again, this is a document produced by 5 British-American Tobacco Company Limited; correct? 6 A. Appears to be. 7 Q. The first paragraph states that "Liggett & Myers 8 stayed out of T.I.R.C. original:y because they 9 doubted the sincerity of T.I.R.C. motives and 10 believed that the organization was too unwieldy to 11 work efficiently;" correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. They state that "They rema-Ln convinced that 14 their misgivings were justified;" correct? 15 A. That's what it says. 16 Q. It says, "In their opinion T.I.R.C. has done 17 little if anything constructive, the constantly 18 reiterated 'not proven' statements in the face of 19 mounting contrary evidence has thoroughly discredited 20 T.I.R.C., and the S.A.B. of T.I.R.C. is supporting 21 almost without exception projects which are not 22 related directly to smoking and lung cancer." 23 Correct? 24 A. That's what it says. 25 Q. And if that's true, that would certainly be a STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 t.r f f`si i 3N 0 ~°~ 3 0 5 221

C. C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 05:21:10 05:21:12 05:21:18 05:21:20 05:21:24 05:21:26 05:21:28 05:21:32 05:21:34 05:21:38 05:21:38 05:21:40 05:21:42 05:21:44 05:21:50 05:22:02 05:22:04 05:22:08 05:22:10 05:22:14 05:22:16 05:22:18 05:22:18 243 1 violation of CTR's and TIRC's pledges to the public; 2 correct? 3 A. Well this was the opinion of Liggett & Myers 4 Tobacco Company, and -- and these three itinerant 5 observers may or may not have been accurate in their 6 interpretation, so I -- I can't say that anything is 7 in violation of anything. 8 Q. Again, these three observers appear to be 9 employees of the British-American Tobacco Company; 10 correct? 11 A. They would appear to be. 12 Q. And that's the company that owns Brown & 13 Williamson Tobacco Company; correct? 14 A. It would appear. 15 Q. And Brown & Williamson Tobacco Company is one of 16 the founding members of the TIRC; correct? 17 A. They were. 18 Q. Look on the last page, page two. It states in 19 the last paragraph that "It is perhaps significant of 20 the trend of thought in T.I.R.C. that we are told by 21 Hockett that, in addition to work supported by grants 22 which can be freely published, the S.A.B. is now 23 considering contracting out biological work on a 24 commercial basis." Correct? 25 A. Correct. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 E.., T R H N 0 43 0 53

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:22:22 05:22:26 05:22:28 05:22:32 05:22:34 05:22:36 05:22:38 05:22:40 05:22:42 05:22:44 05:22:48 05:22:50 05:22:52 05:22:54 05:22:54 05:22:56 05:22:56 05:22:58 05:23:00 05:23:02 05:23:02 05:23:04 05:23:04 05:23:06 05:23:08 244 1 Q. "This would be -- This at first would be 2 exploratory work on quantitative carcinogenicity, but 3 the change of principle is that for the first time 4 the line of research and publication policy would be 5 completely in the hands of the Scientific Advisory 6 Board." Correct? 7 A. That's what it says, and that would be true 8 depending upon the way the contract was written and 9 issued. 10 Q. And again, the implication in the Frank 11 Statement and subsequent press releases by the TIRC 12 would be that all of their researchers would be 13 completely free to publish whatever results they 14 wanted; correct? 15 A. That's not -- 16 That's not true of contract research. 17 Q. I understand. 18 A. It's true of grant. 19 Q. So contract research would actually be in 20 violation of the implication that TIRC -- 21 A. No, no. 22 Q. -- made to the public -- 23 A. No, no. 24 Q. -- that everybody would be free to publish 25 whatever result they found. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 t..+ f R i1N 0°T 3O~,.~ 4

C O N F I D E N^_ I A L 05:23:12 05:23:16 05:23:18 05:23:28 05:23:30 05:23:32 05:23:34 05:23:36 05:23:38 05:23:40 05:23:44 05:23:44 05:23:46 05:24:06 05:24:06 05:24:06 05:24:08 05:24:22 05:24:24 05:24:28 05:24:32 05:24:36 05:24:38 05:24:42 245 1 A. No, that's not incompatible or inconsistent at 2 all. Contract research has always carried with it 3 the implication that the findings of the research are 4 the property of the contractor. 5 Q. Which would be the CTR. 6 A. CTR. 7 Q. So now CTR was not in the position of sponsoring 8 independent research, it was in the position of 9 actually specifically controlling direct research. 10 MR. MERRITT: I would object to the form of 11 the question. It's unfair. When you say "now," what 12 are we talking about, what t'me period? 13 MR. O'FALLON: 1958 and onward. 14 MR. MERRITT: Do you -- do you remember the 15 question? 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think I do. 17 MR. O'FALLON: Well let's just have it read 18 back. 19 (Record read by the court reporter.) 20 A. Well that's not true. Thaz's a generalization 21 that -- that I won't subscribe to. CTR continued its 22 grant program. CTR also recognized the need for 23 certain contract work. And I think it is entirely 24 consistent and compatible with the -- with the Frank 2S Statement. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Lr f R i 1 f f o43VE.-..4.50.~

C O N F I D E N'I' I A L 05:24:44 05:24:48 05:24:50 05:24:52 05:24:54 05:24:58 05:25:04 05:25:08 05:25:10 05:25:12 05:25:14 05:25:16 05:25:16 05:25:18 05:25:18 05:25:22 05:25:24 05:25:24 05:25:26 05:25:30 05:25:34 05:25:36 05:25:52 05:25:52 05:25:54 246 1 Q. Well the statements were -- that was made to the 2 public was that all the researc:ers would be free to 3 publish -- 4 A. Statements that were made to the public were 5 that, yes, research results wou:d be reported, but it 6 doesn't say that contract work cannot be issued. It 7 doesn't say that the terms of a contract might -- 8 might preclude publication without prior approval. 9 Q. The clear implication of your public 10 statements -- 11 A. No, you -- you -- you're asking me to -- 12 Q. Sir -- 13 A. -- assume your assumptions. 14 Q. Sir, -- 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. -- let me finish my question. 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. The clear implication of C--R's numerous public 19 statements was that all of their researchers would be 20 completely free and independent to publish whatever 21 findings resulted; correct? 22 A. No, I don't interpret it that way. 23 MR. O'FALLON: Let's go off the record for 24 a second. 25 THE REPORTER: Off the record, please. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C" T R H N 0 43 0 =5 6

(° C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:26:06 05:26:10 05:26:14 05:26:14 05:26:16 05:26:20 05:26:22 05:26:24 05:26:42 05:26:46 05:27:02 05:27:06 05:27:08 05:27:18 05:27:28 05:27:30 05:27:32 05:27:36 05:27:42 05:27:42 05:27:46 0 5 : 2 7 : 4 8 05:27:52 05:27:56 247 1 (Discussion off the record.) 2 BY MR. O'FALLON: 3 Q. Would you agree that during its existence, CTR 4 has conducted approximately 19 million dollars' worth 5 of contract research? 6 A. I don't know the figure. 7 Q. Would that be consistent with your knowledge of 8 the amount of contract research conducted by CTR? 9 A. I think it's consistent. I know that one 10 project amounted to some 12 million dollars. That is 11 to be taken within the context of the total program 12 of some 300 million dollars in grants. 13 Q. Move to strike the last part as non-responsive. 14 I've shown you a document that's been previously 15 marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit what, 1533. This is a 16 document Bates stamp numbered 110316203 through 205. 17 Have you seen this document previously? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. This is a document that's entitled 20 "SUPPLEMENTARY REPORT ON DISCUSSIONS WITH OSDENE AND 21 (PHILIP MORRIS);" correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you're ramiliar with Dr. Osdene? 24 A. I don't know Dr. Osdene. I know he was an 25 employee in the research division of Philip Morris. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R 1`1 N 0 4 3' 0 5 7"

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:28:00 05:28:10 05:28:10 05:28:16 05:28:18 05:28:20 05:28:30 05:28:32 05:28:32 05:28:36 05:28:38 05:28:40 05:28:44 05:28:46 05:28:48 05:28:50 05:28:52 05:28:54 05:28:58 05:29:00 05:29:02 05:29:04 05:29:04 05:29:08 05:29:10 248 1 Q. I'd like you to look on the second page under 2 number (f). Do you see where it says "Relations with 3 the C.T.R.?" 4 A. Yes, but I don't know relations of whom. 5 Q. Well apparently he's talking about Osdene's 6 relations with the CTR; correct? 7 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to object to that. 8 You're just asking the witness to speculate abouz 9 that. 10 Q. Well let's read it. It says, quote, "These 11 could scarcely be worse! Osdene's view, 12 parenthetical, Philip Morris's view, question mark, 13 end parenthetical, was that the C.T.R. did virtually 14 no useful work and cost a vast amount of money." 15 Correct? 16 A. That is what's recorded. 17 Q. He -- 18 A. That is Dr. Osdene's view. 19 Q. And again, he's a research -- 20 A. He's an employee of Philip Morris. 21 Q. Was he a research director, do you know? 22 A. He was in the research department. I don't know 23 whether he was a director or not. 24 Q. Okay. He's a fairly-high-up employee with 25 Philip Morris; correct? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 i..r f+ f"G f f{`f 0`"f 305G

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:29:12 05:29:14 05:29:18 05:29:20 05:29:20 05:29:22 05:29:24 05:29:26 05:29:28 05:29:32 05:29:34 05:29:38 05:29:42 05:29:48 05:29:48 05:29:52 05:29:54 05:30:00 05:30:04 05:30:14 05:30:16 05:30:28 05:30:30 05:30:40 05:30:42 2 49 1 A. I can't tell you that. 2 Q. It says, "He was highly critical of Little, Hoyt 3 and Hockett and considered the -aost able member o f 4 the staff was probably Kreisher;" correct ? 5 A. That's what it says. 6 Q. "The S.A.B. was not considered to be very -- 7 very effective, but he was not critical o f any 8 individual member." Correct? 9 A. It is so written. 10 Q. He says, "Furst was described as a' reasonab le 11 second-rater; "' correct? 12 A. That's a very unfortunate character ization. 13 Q. But you would agree that at least t wo compan ies 14 have now expressed the view that CTR's w ork is 15 relatively useless; correct? 16 A. No, I don't think -- 17 Two companies did not express the v 18 Osdene expressed his view. This is not iew. Dr. necessari y a 19 company view. In fact they even questio n whether it Morris's view 20 is Phili p . 21 Q. I'm going to show you a document th at's been 22 previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 143. Th is 23 is a document dated November 12th, 1971, Bates st amp 24 numbered 1000255276 through 278. It's f rom an R. N. 25 Saleeby, Jr., to Dr. Helmut Wakeham; cor rect? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 r'" TI! 7 ! N `r" I 30' %mA 9

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:30:44 05:30:48 05:30:52 05:30:54 05:30:56 05:31:00 05:31:02 05:31:04 05:31:08 05:31:16 05:31:18 05:31:20 05:31:24 05:31:28 05:31:32 05:31:36 05:31:40 05:31:42 05:31:42 05:31:44 05:31:48 05:31:56 05:32:00 05:32:02 05:32:06 250 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And it's a review of the 71 abstracts of CTR 3 grants in force on November 1st, 1970; correct? 4 A. It purports to be. 5 Q. He states that "The most significant" -- at the 6 middle of the page he states that "The most 7 significant reaction I had in reading the abstracts 8 is the feeling of distance many of them have to the 9 problem of smoking and health. By my subjective 10 accounting, 430M, or 17 percent, is irrelevant to the 11 supposed interests of CTR." Correct? 12 A. That is what is written. 13 Q. So now you've got Philip Morris stating that 14 much of what CTR does is irrelevant; correct? 15 A. Philip Morris is not stating it, Mr. Saleeby is. 16 Q. Who has apparently been given the assignment to 17 assess CTR by Philip Morris, correct? 18 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to object to that, 19 assuming a fact not in evidence. 20 A. I don't know whether he was given the assignment 21 or whether this was a gratuitous commentary. 22 Q. Well was the industry given to making gratuitous 23 commentary about the organization they themselves 24 organized, funded and controlled? 25 MR. MERRITT: Object to -- STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Ci R Hf-j 04,309i'r+i

(I C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 251 05:32:08 05:32:12 05:32:16 05:32:22 05:32:30 05:32:32 05:32:34 05:32:34 05:32:38 05:32:38 05:32:42 05:32:44 05:32:44 05:32:46 05:33:06 05:33:10 05:33:12 05:33:18 05:33:20 05:33:24 05:33:24 05:33:28 05:33:30 05:33:34 1 It calls for speculation by the witness. 2 A. I don't know that the industry was given to 3 anything. I think Mr. Saleeby was given to 4 expressing his opinion, and that's all that this 5 represents. This represents Mr. Saleeby's personal 6 commentary on the research that was being sponsored, 7 and I'm not sure that anybody else would have agreed 8 to this. 9 Q. Well apparently Dr. Osdene and Liggett & Myers 10 agreed with it. 11 MR. MERRITT: Object. 12 Q. Correct? 13 MR. MERRITT: Object to the form of the 14 question. 15 A. No, I don't -- I don't interpret it that way. 16 Q. You would agree that CTR and its successor, 17 TIRC, should not have suppressed any research; 18 correct? 19 A. Well CTR was the successor to TIRC. 20 Q. Neither of those companies, neither of those two 21 corporations should have been suppressing any 22 smoking-and-health research; correct? 23 A. I don't -- don't believe that they ever were. 24 Q. Nor would it be appropriate for them to have 25 members of their Scientific Advisory Board approach STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R ILI N 0 43" 0 6 1

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:33:38 05:33:42 05:33:44 05:33:48 05:33:50 05:33:54 05:33:54 05:33:56 05:33:58 05:34:02 05:34:04 05:34:28 05:34:30 05:34:30 05:34:34 05:34:36 05:34:42 05:34:46 05:34:46 05:34:48 05:34:52 05:34:54 05:34:54 252 1 individuals at contracting or grant -- grantor 2 institutions to try to influence their public 3 statements; correct? 4 A. I'm not sure I understand the thrust of the 5 question. The implication is that CTR attempted to 6 control what investigators had to say or publish, and 7 that's simply not true. 8 Q. And if it were true, it would certainly be 9 wrong; correct? 10 A. It is not true. 11 Q. But if it were true, it would be wrong. 12 A. It is not true. 13 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1163 was marked 14 for identification.) 15 BY MR. O'FALLON: 16 Q. Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1163 is a document BateS 17 stamp numbered "CTR MINNESOTA -- CONFIDENTIAL: 18 MINNESOTA TOBACCO LITIGATION," Bates number 500"0""727 19 through 67728. 20 Have you seen this document previously? 21 A. No. 22 Q. This is a document dated October 23, 1956; 23 correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. It's a memorandum; right? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CT R H N 0 4,~0 6 .21

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:34:56 05:34:58 05:34:58 05:35:00 05:35:04 05:35:06 05:35:08 05:35:10 05:35:12 05:35:12 05:35:16 05:35:16 05:35:20 05:35:24 05:35:24 05:35:28 05:35:30 05:35:34 05:35:36 05:35:36 05:35:38 05:35:42 05:35:42 05:35:44 05:35:46 253 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. It's from a W. T. Hoyt; correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And who is W. T. Hoyt? 5 A. Mr. Hoyt was the president of CTR. 6 Q. And it was to T. V. Harnett -- Hartnett; right? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. And who was Mr. T. V. Hartnett? 9 A. Mr. Hartnett was, I believe, chairman of the 10 board at that time. 11 Q. So chairman of the board of TIRC? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And the subject is "Statement of F. G. Bock in 14 Buffalo, New York on October 12th, 1956;" correct? 15 A. Appears to be. 16 Q. First paragraph says that "Attached is a 17 photostat o-f the item which appeared in the NEW YORK 18 WORLD TELEGRAM & SUN on October 12th, and which was 19 subsequently picked up in the current issue of 20 ADVERTISING AGE;" correct? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. "For your information this did not appear in 23 other New York papers." Correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. It says, "As you are aware, we have been STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R r" I N 0 43 0 6 '3

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:35:50 05:35:52 05:35:54 05:35:54 05:35:56 05:36:00 05:36:02 05:36:04 05:36:06 05:36:10 05:36:14 05:36:18 05:36:20 05:36:24 05:36:24 05:36:28 05:36:30 05:36:32 05:36:34 05:36:36 05:36:40 05:36:44 05:36:48 254 1 concerned for some time about the expressions which 2 emanate from Roswell Park Memorial Institute." 3 Correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. "These expressions apparently deal exclusively 6 with statistical associations either originating at 7 Roswell Park or elsewhere;" correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. "As near as we can ascertain, the genesis of the 10 smoking connection with either lung cancer or cancer 11 of the bladder stems from a statistician at Roswell 12 Park by the name of Abraham Lilienfeld who has done 13 some work on this subject, and who apparently is in 14 the Hammond camp of thinking on the whole subject;" 15 correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. The Hammond camp would be that camp which 18 believed that smoking causes various diseases; 19 correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. It says, "Just a year ago Dr. Moore gave a paper 22 at the University of Minnesota which described the 23 methods he and his associates intended to use in 24 laboratory research on the subject of tobacco and any 25 possible influence it might have on lung cancer. We STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 V I I ti IWI N 043 W' \d !

( C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:36:50 05:36:54 05:36:56 05:36:56 05:36:58 05:37:02 05:37:04 05:37:04 05:37:08 05:37:12 05:37:14 05:37:18 05:37:20 05:37:24 05:37:26 05:37:28 05:37:28 05:37:30 05:37:34 05:37:36 05:37:38 05:37:40 05:37:42 05:37:44 05:37:46 255 1 were quite concerned at that time when we found out 2 that the paper implied that statistical associations 3 had indicated a carcinogen in tobacco." Correct? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. "We were even more alarmed when we discovered 6 that he intended to mention the TIRC as a supporter 7 of his work." Correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. "At that time, through Dr. Hockett, we arranged 10 for him not to mention the TIRC and pointed out that 11 at least insofar as our grant was concerned, we 12 preferred to have no comments prejudging its results 13 until sufficiently conclusive findings had been 14 published in an accredited scientific journal or 15 given on equally accredited scientific platforms." 16 Correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. In other words, a CTR representative approached 19 this man and influenced him as to what he would say 20 about his research; correct? 21 A. No, I don't interpret it that way at all. 22 MR. MERRITT: Let me interrupt. If you're 23 going to have him answer -- answer questions about 24 this episode in this document, I think he should be 25 entitled to read the entire document rather than just STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR NN 042306=5

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:37:52 05:37:52 05:37:54 05:40:00 05:40:00 05:40:04 05:40:10 05:40:10 05:40:12 05:40:14 05:40:18 05:40:20 05:40:22 05:40:26 05:40:28 05:40:30 05:40:30 05:40:32 05:40:36 05:40:38 05:40:38 05:40:40 05:40:42 05:40:46 256 1 reading the first three paragraphs and then -- 2 MR. O'FALLON: If you would like to take 3 the time to read the entire document, you can do so; 4 then we'll come back and ask questions. 5 (Witness reads document.) 6 A. All right, I think I understand it. 7 Q. Let's go back to the first page. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Again, when we left off we were talking about 10 the sentence that said, "At that time, through Dr. 11 Hockett, we arranged for him not to mention the TIRC 12 and pointed out that at least insofar as our grant 13 was concerned, we preferred to have no comments 14 prejudging his results until sufficiently conclusive 15 findings had been published in an accredited 16 scientific journal or given an equally accredited 17 scientific platform;" correct? 18 A. That's what it says. 19 Q. It says, "Since that time we have had no 20 problems until the Associated Press dispatch appeared 21 in the WORLD TELEGRAM on October 12th;" correct? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. Goes on to state, "While the problem of 24 influencing the statements of scientists is a 25 ticklish one, I have personally spoken to Dr. Kotin STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 M I ! 1 I ! N 043066

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:40:50 05:40:54 05:40:54 05:40:54 05:40:58 05:41:00 05:41:02 05:41:06 05:41:08 05:41:08 05:41:12 05:41:16 05:41:18 05:41:20 05:41:22 05:41:26 05:41:30 05:41:32 05:41:38 05:41:40 05:41:42 05:41:44 05:41:46 05:41:48 257 1 who has been our principal SAB contact with Roswell 2 Park as he knows Dr. Moore and Dr. Bock quite well;" 3 correct? 4 A. "Mr. Bock." 5 Q. Oh, "Mr. Bock." 6 "I have asked Dr. Kotin if he will personally 7 see these two people and explain to them in somewhat 8 fuller detail the paragraphs in the -- in the, quote, 9 Statement of Policy Containing Conditions and Terms 10 Under Which Project Grants Are Made;" correct? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. So you've got a member of the SAB going out and 13 basically trying to quell statements by a scientist 14 who's been given a grant. 15 A. Absolutely not. You totally misinterpret this 16 memorandum. What they are upset about here and what 17 this exchange is -- is all about is the fact that 18 investigators were pre-reporting through the lay 19 press their scientific findings, and that they were 20 not following policy regarding conclusive report in 21 an accredited medical journal or at an accredited 22 society. 23 Q. Well sir, most -- 24 A. This is -- this is entirely appropriate. And 25 you totally misinterpret it. They're not trying to STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CT R t~N 0 4,~0 67"

C 0 N F I D E 11 T I A L 05:41:50 05:41:52 05:41:54 05:41:58 05:42:04 05:42:06 05:42:10 05:42:14 05:42:18 05:42:20 05:42:24 05:42:28 05:42:32 05:42:34 05:42:36 05:42:40 05:42:42 05:42:46 05:42:46 05:42:48 05:42:50 05:42:52 05:42:54 05:42:54 258 1 quell anything; in fact, they acknowledge that 2 they're not trying to quell it by their statement, 3"While the problem of influencing the statements of 4 scientists is a ticklish one," in other words, this 5 is a prickly area and we don't want to exercise any 6 undue influence. At the same time we don't want them 7 reporting scientific work purportedly supported by 8 TIRC in the New York World Telegram & Sun or the 9 current issue of Advertising Age. 10 Q. Especially if it's going to report that there's 11 a connection between lung cancer and smoking; 12 correct? 13 A. Well that was shot down also, and I would call 14 your attention to the second-to-last paragraph, that 15 "although they have exposed mice to regular 16 inhalation of cigarette smoke in the laboratory for 17 19 months - practically a full lifetime - at the last 18 report no lung cancers had developed beyond the small 19 number to be expected in that strain under normal 20 conditions." 21 Q. Well the lung cancer -- 22 A. So that's a preliminary report, and you -- 23 Q. Lung cancers have developed; correct, sir? 24 A. They do. They do in that strain of mice. 25 Q. Well -- STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 L.r f2R rf f`i 043068

C. C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 05:42:54 05:42:56 05:43:00 05:43:00 05:43:02 05:43:04 05:43:04 05:43:08 05:43:10 05:43:12 05:43:14 05:43:16 05:43:18 05:43:20 05:43:20 05:43:24 05:43:26 05:43:28 05:43:36 05:43:38 05:43:40 05:43:40 05:43:42 05:43:44 05:43:46 259 1 A. They do -- 2 They do in many, many experimental animals. 3 Q. And of course you don't know what strain of mice 4 they're talking about here; do you? 5 A. Don't know. It's not reported. 6 Q. This is now the first time you've seen the 7 document; correct? 8 A. This is the first time I've seen the document, 9 but my interpretation of it I'm absolutely positive. 10 And by the way, it's Dr. Kotin that you refer 11 to. 12 Q. Well the fact of the matter is is that you're 13 stating they're out there reporting this in the lay 14 press; right? 15 A. That is correct. 16 Q. The fact of the matter is that what it's talking 17 about in the second paragraph is the presentation of 18 a paper at the University of Minnesota; right? 19 A. And the second paragraph you're talking about -- 20 Q. Let's look at the third paragraph, sir. 21 A. The third paragraph. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. Dr. Moore -- I think that's Dr. George Moore, 24 whom I knew. 25 Q. Well it states that he -- STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CT / 1 tI N 0 4 °..,'0 6 9

C O N F I D E N T I A L 260 05:43:46 05:43:48 05:43:50 05:43:54 05:43:54 05:43:56 05:44:00 05:44:02 05:44:02 05:44:04 05:44:06 05:44:08 05:44:10 05:44:12 05:44:14 05:44:16 05:44:20 05:44:22 05:44:26 05:44:28 05:44:32 05:44:36 05:44:38 05:44:38 05:44:42 1 A. -- gave a paper at the University of Minnesota, 2 but that -- 3 University of Minnesota is not an accredited 4 peer-reviewed society. 5 Q. It's a -- 6 You understand that the University of Minnesota 7 is a -- is a well-established and distinguished 8 research institution; correct, sir? 9 A. Oh, certainly I know that. 10 Q. Right? 11 A. And I have great respect for it. But it is not 12 a peer-reviewed platform. He can go out there and 13 present anything he wants to in any terms he wants 14 to. This is -- 15 He's an invited lecturer. He comes and talks 16 about any topic he wants. That is not the same as 17 appearing on a scientific program with a national 18 platform. That's entirely different. He can go out 19 there and express his opinion on space stations or 20 whatever he wants to talk about at the University of 21 Minnesota, but it is not the same as a peer-reviewed 22 platform for the presentation of scientific work. 23 And you're all wrong about this. 24 Q. Well he went out and he presented at the 25 University of Minnesota the methods that he was going STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C "TR HN 043 0""'0

(" C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:44:44 05:44:46 05:44:48 05:44:50 05:44:54 05:44:56 05:44:58 05:45:02 05:45:06 05:45:08 05:45:12 05:45:16 05:45:16 05:45:20 05:45:22 05:45:24 05:45:30 05:45:30 05:45:32 05:45:38 05:45:42 05:45:48 05:45:50 05:45:52 05:45:56 261 1 to use in the laboratory -- 2 A. Intended to use -- 3 Q. Sir -- sir, don't interrupt me. I've been very 4 tolerant of this, but don't interrupt me. 5 It says, "Just a year ago Dr. Moore gave a paper 6 at -- at the University of Minnesota which described 7 the methods he and his associates intended to use in 8 laboratory research on the subject of tobacco and any 9 possible influence it might have on lung cancer. We 10 were quite concerned at that time when we found out 11 that the paper implied that statistical associations 12 had indicated a carcinogen in tobacco." That's what 13 they were concerned about; right? 14 A. That's what they say. 15 Q. And they were even more alarmed because the 16 paper reporting that there was a carcinogen in 17 tobacco may be indicated to have been supported by 18 the TIRC; correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And that's when Dr. Hockett arranged for Dr. 21 Moore not to mention that the TIRC -- not to mention 22 the TIRC, right? 23 A. For the simple reason that they were -- 24 He was making speculation. This was a -- this 25 was over 40 years ago. If -- if indeed Dr. Moore STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C"TR rIN 04-30""1

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:46:00 05:46:04 05:46:06 05:46:10 05:46:12 05:46:16 05:46:18 05:46:20 05:46:24 05:46:24 05:46:26 05:46:28 05:46:30 05:46:34 05:46:38 05:46:40 05:46:42 05:46:46 05:46:50 05:46:52 05:46:54 05:46:56 05:47:00 05:47:02 05:47:08 262 1 suspected a carcinogen in tobacco, it hadn't then 2 been proven. Furthermore, they were alarmed that he 3 was issuing this information through the lay press, 4 that it had not been peer reviewed, that it had never 5 been submitted for publication in a -- in a qualified 6 scientific journal, that it had not been presented 7 from a platform of -- peer-reviewed program. And 8 your interpretation is just absolutely wrong. 9 They're not trying to quell anything, they're trying 10 to make him play by the rules of the -- of the 11 scientific community. 12 Q. Okay. The statement in here is "an equally 13 accredited scientific platform." Is it your 14 testimony that the University of Minnesota is not a, 15 quote, equally accredited scientific platform? 16 A. Yes, sir, because it's not peer reviewed. 17 He was invited to come out. He gave a 18 speculative paper on what he -- the methods which he 19 and associates intended to use in the laboratory. 20 Q. I'm sorry. Where does the word "peer review" 21 appear in that third paragraph on the first page of 22 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1163? 23 A. It doesn't appear. Those are my words. But I'm 24 trying to explain that this is not a peer-reviewed 25 platform, this is not a national meeting where an STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C" 6 T R N N 0 43 0 ? ". -2.

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 05:47:12 05:47:14 05:47:16 05:47:20 05:47:22 05:47:24 05:47:28 05:47:30 05:47:32 05:47:34 05:47:36 05:47:38 05:47:40 05:47:42 05:47:44 05:47:46 05:47:48 05:47:50 05:47:52 05:47:54 05:47:56 05:47:58 05:48:00 05:48:02 05:48:04 263 1 abstract is submitted where it is reviewed by a 2 program committee whether it is deemed acceptable for 3 public presentation or not. This is simply giving a 4 paper at Minnesota where he described the methods he 5 and his associates intended to use in laboratory 6 subject. 7 Q. Where does it say that this was never reviewed 8 through a committee? Where does it state that? 9 A. It doesn't say that, but I know for -- 10 I've been in this business for 45 years. 11 Q. You're going to testify -- 12 A. I'm going to testify -- 13 Q. -- as you sit here today, sir -- strike. 14 You're going to testify as you sit here today 15 that on October 23rd of 1956, you know for a fact 16 that people who made presentations at the University 17 of Minnesota concerning scientific matters did not 18 have to go through any kind of a committee before 19 making that presentation? That's your testimony 20 you sit here today? 21 A. That is my testimony, and that was standard 22 practice and is standard practice in all medical 23 institutions across this country. 24 Q. And you're familiar -- 25 A. And if you can get somebody to testify as STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 c `r R t°IN 0 4 3 0 ';~ 3

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:48:06 05:48:06 05:48:10 05:48:16 05:48:18 05:48:20 05:48:24 05:48:26 05:48 :28 05:48:28 05:48:34 05:48:36 05:48:36 05:48:48 05:48:54 05:48:56 05:49:00 05:49:04 05:49:10 05:49:12 05:49:18 05:49:20 05:49:24 264 1 differently about that, I would be delighted to hear 2 him. 3 Q. And so you think it's perfectly fine when this 4 independent arm of the tobacco industry goes out and 5 tells people, who are simply receiving money and 6 supposed to be independent, that they can't do 7 certain things, like they can't make presentations at 8 the University of Minnesota -- 9 A. They didn't tell him that. 10 Q. -- and you can't say -- 11 A. They didn't tell him that. 12 Q. -- not to use the word TIRC -- 13 (Discussion off the stenographic record.) 14 THE REPORTER: Let's go off the record a 15 moment, please. 16 BY MR. O'FALLON: 17 Q. So again, you think it's perfectly acceptable to 18 use members of the Scientific Advisory Board to go 19 out and use their influence to have researchers hold 20 back on their findings and make sure that they don't 21 use or attribute their work to the TIRC; correct? 22 A. Well there are two assumptions there. They are 23 both invalid in my view. First is that a member of 24 the SAB would go out and try to influence an 25 investigator. And there -- we have no evidence that STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 c°r R N N 0 4-'3 07"' 4

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:49:28 05:49:34 05:49:38 05:49:42 05:49:50 05:49:50 05:49:54 05:50:02 05:50:02 05:50:04 05:50:06 05:50:08 05:50:10 05:50:14 05:50:16 05:50:16 05:50:50 05:50:58 05:51:00 05:51:06 05:51:08 05:51:10 05:51:12 05:51:14 05:51:16 265 1 that's true. What is stated here is that they did 2 not want Dr. Moore to publish in the lay press 3 prospective findings of a study he intended to 4 undertake and attributed to TIRC, and that's a 5 perfectly reasonable approach. The National 6 Institutes of Healr-h would have had exactly the same 7 approach under the circumstances. 8 Q. Move to strike the last comment as lacking any 9 foundation. 10 This memo indicates that Dr. Hockett spoke with 11 Dr. Moore about his presentation; correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. It indicates :hat they're going to ask Dr. Kotin 14 to go out -- Kotirn to go out and talk to Dr. ucc=e 15 and Dr. Bock; righ;,? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. Are you iamil_ar with the work of Dr. Auerbach? 18 A. Only vaguely. It was a long time ago. 19 Q. Do you understand that Dr. Auerbach clai;mmed that 20 he had induced cancer in the lungs of animals exposed 21 to smoke through inhalation? 22 A. I understand he claimed that, but I also 23 understand there's a good deal of controversy a~:.3ng 24 pathologists as to whether that was actually the 25 case. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 f ~~ f ~f "~ 0'"~e'~~ {.1 0f"`5

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:51:18 05:51:22 05:51:24 05:51:26 05:51:28 05:51:38 05:51:44 05:51:50 05:51:52 05:51:54 05:51:56 05:51:58 05:52:02 05:52:02 05:52:10 05:52:14 05:52:16 05:52:20 05:52:24 05:52:26 05:52:28 05:52:30 05:52:30 05:52:34 05:52:36 266 1 Q. In fact, the industry was quite concerned about 2 Dr. Auerbach's studies and did what they could to 3 counter what he was reporting; correct, sir? 4 A. Not to my knowledge. 5 Q. I'd like to show you a document that's been 6 previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 171. This 7 is a document Bates stamp numbered 1000837391 through 8 392 dated February 25th of 1970. 9 Have you ever seen this document previously? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. This is a memorandum from an. R. Fagan to Dr. 12 Helmut Wakeham concerning Auerbach's smoking 13 vehicle -- beagles; correct? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. This indicates at number one that "One dog, 16 which was an inveterate smoker, was placed in a stall 17 to demonstrate how the animals smoked;" correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Apparently the cigarette used was stronger than 20 the brand they were using and the behavior of the dog 21 showed that he, too, was not used to this kind of 22 smoke; correct? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Look at number 6). It says, "Dr. Auerbach 25 showed me photomicrographs of what looked to my STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CJR HN 04,30"G

C 0 N F I D E?7 T I A L 05:52:40 05:52:40 05:52:46 05:52:48 05:52:50 05:52:52 05:52:52 05:52:56 05:52:58 05:53:00 05:53:04 05:53:10 05:53:12 05:53:14 05:53:20 05:53:22 05:53:26 05:53:28 05:53:34 05:53:38 05:53:40 05:53:44 05:53:46 05:53:50 267 1 non-expert eye as typical invasive carcinoma." 2 Correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. "He read me a report from Dr. John Berg, 5 N.C.I." -- 6 That's the National Cancer Institute? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. -- "which corroborates this diagnosis;" correct? 9 A. That's what is written. Whether it's correct or 10 not is open to some speculation. 11 Q. Well this is an industry representative; 12 correct? 13 A. I don't know Mr. Fagan. 14 Q. This is an internal Philip Morris document, sir. 15 A. Fine. I accept that. 16 Q. It said, "Dr. Auerbach showed me several 17 notations in which -- in which Dr. S. Nielsen, 18 veterinary pathologist, agrees with Auerbach's 19 readings of slides;" correct? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Look at paragraph 8). It says, "Judging from my 22 reading of a copy of the talk given to the American 23 Cancer Society and from what I saw at the V.A. 24 Hospital in East Orange, New Jersey, I would say that 25 the experiment is a crude one but effective in that STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 cT R H N 0 43 0 't '~

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:53:52 05:53:54 05:53:58 05:54:02 05:54:06 05:54:08 05:54:12 05:54:16 05:54:16 05:54:18 05:54:20 05:54:22 05:54:22 05:54:24 05:54:26 05:54:28 05:54:30 05:54:32 05:54:36 05:54:54 05:54:58 05:55:00 05:55:04 05:55:06 05:55:08 268 1 carcinoma in dogs has been produced." Correct? 2 A. That's what is written. 3 Q. It says, "I am not expert enough to distinguish 4 between these early carcinomata, pulmonary 5 adenomatosis, carcinoma in situ, et cetera. This I 6 leave to the expert pathologists." Correct? 7 A. Correct. And I think he is stating a 8 fundamental fact, he's not qualified to make any 9 judgment. 10 Q. But apparently there's at least two expert 11 pathologists who have confirmed Dr. Auerbach's 12 findings; correct? 13 A. There were several that questioned it. 14 Q. Most of those are associated with the tobacco 15 industry; right,,sir? 16 A. I don't know that. 17 Q. Well let's take a look at what B&W had to say 18 about it. I'm going to hand you a document that's 19 been previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 428. 20 This is a document that's Bates stamped 690004474 21 through 4476. It's written by a Dr. I. W. Hughes. 22 Are you familiar with Dr. Hughes? 23 A. No. 24 Q. It states on the front, quote, "I would imagine 25 that the industry could be asked what it is going to STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CTR N'N 0430~"B

( C O N F I D E N T I A L 269 05:55:12 05:55:12 05:55:16 05:55:18 05:55:20 05:55:24 05:55:28 05:55:30 05:55:34 05:55:34 05:55:36 05:55:38 05:55:40 05:55:42 05:55:44 05:55:46 05:55:48 05:55:52 05:55:54 05:55:56 05:56:06 05:56:12 05:56:12 05:56:14 05:56:16 1 do following the Auerbach publication.° Correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. "It is possible to adopt the stance that, quote, 4 the work is significant and important, and the 5 industry will sponsor a research project (in which 6 Auerbach corroborates) aimed at repeating the 7 experiment under statistical control to determine the 8 significance of the rate of incidence of invasive 9 squamous carcinoma in relation to dosage, et 10 cetera.'" Correct? 11 A. As written. 12 Q. Did that ever happen? 13 A. I don't know that. 14 Q. Then it states, "(This type of experimenz needs 15 to be done so that the industry can become aware of 16 how it might have to change its products, as 17 inhalation techniques and experimental procedures 18 become even more sophisticated and possibly produce 19 even more damaging results.)" Correct? 20 A. Essentially. 21 Q. Let's look on the second page, Bates number 22 475. Again this is entitled the "AUERBACH/HANIMOND 23 PAPER;" correct? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. It says, °1. Although open to criticism on STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 CT R t I N 0 43 0'."RE

C 0 N F I D E N T I A L 05:56:22 05:56:26 05:56:26 05:56:28 05:56:30 05:56:32 05:56:36 05:56:38 05:56:40 05:56:48 05:56:50 05:56:52 05:56:54 05:56:56 05:56:58 05:57:00 05:57:04 05:57:06 05:57:10 05:57:14 05:57:16 05:57:18 05:57:18 05:57:24 05:57:26 270 1 several counts, the general standard of the paper is 2 good. I am of the view that this shows it is now 3 possible to produce tumors in the respiratory system 4 of an animal by direct inhalation." Correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did the tobacco industry ever come out and state 7 that Auerbach's work showed that it was now possible 8 to produce tumors in the respiratory system of an 9 animal by direct inhalation? 10 A. I'm sorry, I'm missing that. 11 Q. Did the tobacco industry ever come out and 12 publicly state that Auerbach's work demonstrated that 13 it was now possible to produce tumors in the 14 respiratory system of an animal by direct 15 inhalation? 16 A. I don't know that. 17 Q. You would agree that the production of tumors in 18 the respiratory system of an animal by direct 19 inhalation would be a significant step in proving 20 that cigarette smoke caused lung cancer; correct? 21 A. I would agree with that statement. But I'm 22 not -- I will not agree that they had actually 23 produced tumors. 24 This paper in question was submitted to the 25 Journal of the American Medical Association which STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 f...r I R l Il ~I 042080 '

C O N F I D E N T I A L 05:57:28 05:57:30 05:57:34 05:57:36 05:57:38 05:57:42 05:57:46 05:57:48 05:57:50 05:57:52 05:57:54 05:57:54 05:58:00 05:58:04 06:00:22 06:00:28 06:00:30 06:00:34 06:00:38 06:00:38 06:00:42 06:00:46 06:00:46 06:00:46 271 1 turned it down because the quality of the 2 photomicrographs were so poor that it did not 3 demonstrate conclusively that any malignancies had 4 occurred. 5 Q. The paper was published, though; wasn't it, sir? 6 A. Paper was published in one of the cancer 7 epidemiology journals, I believe. 8 Q. You don't know for certain, though; do you, sir? 9 A. Yes, I know it was published. 10 Q. Well I know it was published too. You don't 11 know where it was published, though; do you, sir? 12 A. No. 13 THE REPORTER: We have to change tape. Off 14 the record, please. 15 (Discussion off the record.) 16 BY MR. O'FALLON: 17 Q. At number four Dr. Hughes states, quote, "T;:is 18 paper must affect the thinking within B&W, and would 19 seem to me to relegate stances on good or bad 20 statistical evaluations to second place." Correct? 21 A. That's what is written. 22 Q. It says, "Indeed, this publication could reverse 23 the hoped-for consequence of something like Project 24 Truth;" correct? 25 A. Yes. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 cTR 1/N 04~'..~•0._..* I

C O N F I D E N T I A L 06:00:48 06:00:48 06:00:54 06:01:00 06:01:02 06:01:06 06:01:08 06:01:12 06:01:18 06:01:20 06:01:24 06:01:28 06:01:30 06:01:32 06:01:34 06:01:36 06:01:38 06:01:42 06:01:46 06:01:48 06:01:50 06:01:52 06:01:54 06:01:54 272 1 Q. Do you know what Project Truth was? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Let's look at the last page, and specifically 4 parenthetical (h). He states that, quote, "All of 5 the above leads me to the view that correlation with 6 the human is still way off; but I accept that 7 significant tumorigenic conditions following 8 inhalation have been achieved." Correct? 9 A. That's Mr. Hughes' opinion. 10 Q. And you would agree, again, that, assuming Mr. 11 Hughes is correct, that -- that in his opinion this 12 is a significant step towards proving that cigarette 13 smoking causes cancer; correct? 14 A. That is what Dr. -- what Mr. Hughes has written 15 here, but I'm not sure I support that view. 16 Q. Well if in fact -- 17 A. What I told -- 18 Q. -- it's indicated that cancer was produced, you 19 would agree that certainly it is a significant step; 20 correct? 21 A. If indeed it had. 22 Q. In any event, you would agree that this research 23 was so important that nothing should be done to 24 suppress it in any fashion; correct? 25 A. Correct. STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 ~~r R ~N 0 4 3' 0 8 2.2.

C 0 N F I D E:T T I A L I 06:01:56 06:02:00 06:02:02 06:02:08 06:02:10 06:02:12 06:02:18 06:02:18 06:02:34 06:02:42 06:02:46 06:02:46 06:02:48 06:02:52 06:02:52 06:02:56 06:02:58 06:02:58 06:03:00 06:03:02 06:03:04 06:03:04 06:03:06 06:03:10 06:03:12 273 1 Q. And you would also agree that nothing should be 2 done to counter it by trying to undercut its 3 credibility; correct? 4 A. I think it suggests that a broader-scale study 5 should be undertaken. 6 Q. Next I'd like to show you a document that's been 7 previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1080. 8 Sorry. 9 This is a document that's Bates stamp numbered 10 50 -- I believe that's a 1990368 through 0369. It's 11 dated November 4th, 1970. 12 Have you ever seen this document previously? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. When did you first see it? 15 A. I can't remember. 16 Q. Has it been a number of years ago? 17 A. I don't -- I don't -- 18 I can't tell you. 19 Q. Is it -- 20 A. I expect within the last year. 21 Q. Is a copy of this document in the files of the 22 CTR? 23 A. I think so. That's where I saw it. 24 Q. Okay. It states -- 25 A. No, I don't know where I saw it. Could have STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R H N 0 43 0 83

C 0 N F I D E 21 T I A L 06:03:16 06:03:18 06:03:22 06:03:28 06:03:30 06:03:34 06:03:38 06:03:38 06:03:44 06:03:46 06:03:48 06:03:52 06:03:56 06:04:02 06:04:06 06:04:10 06:04:14 06:04:16 06:04:20 06:04:20 06:04:30 06:04:30 06:04:34 06:04:44 06:04:46 274 1 been shown me by counsel. 2 Q. Are any of the people who are cc'd at the end of 3 it CTR employees or not? 4 A. No. 5 Q. This is the meet -- minutes of meet in g to 6 discuss results of experiments with smok in g dogs 7 conducted by Dr. Oscar Auerbach; correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. This isn't a purely scientific disc us sion; is 10 it, sir? 11 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to obj ec t to the 12 form of the question . 13 A. Well there are industry representat iv es there 14 and members of the CTR staff. 15 Q. There's also members of the indepen de nt law firm 16 that had represented and continues to re pr ese nt the 17 tobacco industry in its ongoing smoking- an d-h ealth 18 litigation, Shook, Hardy & Bacon; correc t? 19 A. Correct. And as well as people fro m the Philip 20 Morris legal department, apparently. 21 Q. And also Dr. Fagan, who's the gentl eman who 22 wrote the mem o that we looked at previou sly; correct? 23 A. I believ e so. 24 Q. Apparent ly what they're discussing here is what 25 point should be raised with Dr. Auerbach after his STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 c,rR i iN 043084

(I C O N F I D E N T I A L 275 06:04:50 06:04:56 06:04:58 06:05:02 06:05:04 06:05:08 06:05:08 06:05:12 06:05:14 06:05:16 06:05:18 06:05:22 06:05:24 06:05:26 06:05:26 06:05:28 06:05:30 06:05:36 06:05:38 06:05:40 06:05:44 06:05:46 06:05:46 06:05:50 06:05:52 1 presentation at the N.C.I. on November 9th; correct? 2 A. That's what it purports to do. 3 Q. And this is a discussion that was held 4 preliminarily to a presentation to be made by Dr. 5 Auerbach to the Tobacco Working Group at the National 6 Cancer Institute on November 9th of 1970; correct? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. And four of these individuals are industry 9 representatives who are going to participate in ::hat 10 working group; correct? 11 A. I guess so. 12 Q. So it appears that they're meeting to try to 13 figure out how they're going to handle and/or atzack 14 Dr. Auerbach's -findings; correct? 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 THE REPORTER: Your answer? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 Q. First thing they're going to do is -- is to 19, suggest that the beagle is a poor choice for an 20 experimental animal; correct? 21 MR. MERRITT: I'm going to object. You're 22 just asking him -- 23 The way you're phrasing these questions, you're 24 asking him to speculate as to what happened. If 25 you're asking him what this memo says, that's one STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C T R ~`°~N 0 43 0 1 B! 5

C O N F I D E N T I A L 06:05:58 06:06:00 06:06:02 06:06:06 06:06:08 06:06:10 06:06:12 06:06:16 06:06:18 06:06:20 06:06:22 06:06:26 06:06:28 06:06:32 06:06:34 06:06:38 06:06:40 06:06:44 06:06:46 06:06:48 06:06:48 06:06:52 06:06:56 06:06:58 276 1 thing, but I think the other is highly o bjectio na ble. 2 Q. This memo indicates that the first thing they're 3 going to do is to suggest to Dr. Auerba c h that the 4 beagle is a poor choice for an experimental animal; 5 correct? 6 A. Well it doesn't say they're going t o suggest 7 anything to Dr. Auerbach at all. It sa y s, "On a 8 purely medical/scientific basis, the be a gle is a poor 9 choice for the experiment at hand. The behavior of 10 the cells in the lungs and the breathing 11 characteristics of beagles (dogs) are s o totally 12 different from those of man that any re s ults obtained 13 are subject to serious uestion " q . 14 Q. Why don't you look on the previous page. It 15 says, "The medical people at the meetin g , namel y, 16 Fagan, Kreisher, Lisanti, Hockett and S o mmers, 17 emphasized the following points which s h ould be 18 raised with Dr. Auerbach after his presentat;= a t 19 the N.C.I. on November 9th;" correct? 20 A. That's right, and then they go on t o make a 21 medical/scientific observation . 22 Q. The beagle is an accepted experimental animal; 23 correct? 24 A. Well the results with beagles have never been 25 very conclusive. In the -- STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 V' TI 1 • 1 N 04,3086

C O N F I D E N T I A L 277 06:07:02 06:07:06 06:07:08 06:07:10 06:07:14 06:07:18 06:07:22 06:07:24 06:07:24 06:07:26 06:07:30 06:07:30 06:07:34 06:07:38 06:07:40 06:07:42 06:07:44 06:07:48 06:07:52 06:07:52 06:07:58 06:08:00 06:08:06 06:08:08 1 In this era, 40 years ago, it was a -- an animal 2 that was fairly widely used. Almost nobody uses them 3 any more. 4 Q. But it's certainly at least as good an animal to 5 use as mice or hamsters; correct? 6 A. I'm not sure about that. Inbred strains of -- 7 of mice are probably preferable today. 8 Q. But not necessarily back at this time; correct? 9 A. No. 10 Q. And you understand that the industry has always 11 been relatively critical of the mouse painting 12 studies; correct? 13 A. No, that's a different matter. 14 Painting what? Painting spots on mice? I think 15 we're all critical of that. 16 Q. And you understand that that was an accepted 17 method for determining the carcinogenesis of a 18 substance back in the '50s, '60s and '70s; correct? 19 A. It was widely used. 20 Q. And widely accepted; correct? 21 A. well no, because there were serious questions 22 about whether the skin of a mouse is equivalent to 23 the respiratory epithelium of a man. 24 Q. But it was still an accepted practice; correct, 25 sir? STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 k- C f f`~'~. M~N 04308f"

C O N F I D E N T I A L 06:08:12 06:08:14 06:08:18 06:08:22 06:08:22 06:08:24 06:08:32 06:08:34 06:08:40 06:08:42 06:08:48 06:08:50 06:08:50 06:08:52 06:09:02 06:09:06 06:09:08 06:09:10 06:09:12 06:09:14 06:09:16 06:09:18 06:09:18 06:09:22 278 1 A. It was -- it was widely employed. As I say, the 2 scientific results were not necessarily accepted. 3 Q. In fact, the industry has long wanted inhalation 4 testing, and yet that's exactly what Dr. Auerbach 5 gave them; correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. Dr. Sommers also wanted these gentlemen who were 8 part of the Tobacco Working Group to be critical of 9 the smoking technique because they used the trachea; 10 correct? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. However, it was reported that the dogs were 13 docile and friendly and appeared to enjoy the 14 smoking; correct? 15 A. It is so reported. 16 Q. Under "Examination of Presumably Cancerous 17 Tissues" it states, "In the several presentations 18 which Dr. Auerbach has made regarding the 19 experiments, he has shown slides of what he maintains 20 are cancerous tissues." Correct? 21 A. That's the statement. 22 Q. "In medical terms these are referred to as 23 squamous cell carcinoma." Correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Squamous-cell carcinoma is a carcinoma that STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C" T Rr"11 N 0 43- 0 8 8

C O N F I D E N T I A L 06:09:24 06:09:24 06:09:30 06:09:32 06:09:44 06:09:46 06:09:48 06:09:50 06:09:50 06:09:52 06:09:56 06:10:04 06:10:06 06:10:06 06:10:08 06:10:10 06:10:14 06:10:16 06:10:22 06:10:24 06:10:26 06:10:28 06:10:30 06:10:34 279 1 appears in the lungs of man as well; correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Adenocarcinoma also appears in the lungs of man; 4 correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Apparently the basic criticism here isn't 7 whether the slides show what he says they show, but 8 whether the slides are of a good photographic 9 quality; correct? 10 A. Well they're -- 11 If they're such poor photographic quality, you 12 can't tell what they show. 13 Q. In fact the article, the paper was -- did 14 appear, apparently, in the Archives of Environmental 15 Health; correct? 16 A. It's written here. I did not know the name of 17 the journal. 18 Q. Do you think this was an acceptable function for 19 the CTR, to get together with their lawyers before 20 meetings, such as the Tobacco Working Group, to try 21 to put together a plan to influence how research is 22 going to be viewed by the public? 23 A. I don't think that this was an attempt to 24 influence how research is going to be viewed by the 25 public. I think this was an attempt to do a critique STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C*TR 11N 04308 9

C O N F I D E N T I A L 06:10:36 06:10:38 06:10:40 06:10:44 06:10:46 06:10:48 06:10:50 06:10:56 06:11:00 06:11:00 06:11:02 06:11:04 06:11:06 06:11:10 06:11:12 06:11:16 06:11:16 06:11:18 06:11:24 06:11:26 06:11:28 06:11:30 06:11:32 06:11:36 280 1 of this particular project, which apparently was not 2 very well done. 3 Q. Well, but it appears to be at odds with what 4 we've seen stated internally by the company in their 5 own internal documents as to how they viewed it; 6 correct? 7 A. Well I -- 8 The principal criticisms that are leveled here 9 were by Dr. Sommers, and Dr. Sommers is one of the 10 most respected pulmonary pathologists in the world. 11 Q. And a paid employee of the tobacco industry at 12 this point in time. 13 A. He was a -- he was -- 14 No. He was chairman of the Scientific Advisory 15 Board. He was not a paid employee. 16 Q. Eventually became a paid employee; didn't he? 17 A. He did ultimately, but he wasn't at this time. 18 So -- 19 Q. When did he first become a paid employee? 20 A. I can't tell you that. Probably 10 years later. 21 Q. Was he your predecessor? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. How long was he at the position before you 24 succeeded him? 25 A. That's what I don't know. Because if I knew STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C"T R ", 11 N 0 43" 0 9 0

C O N F I D E N T I A L 06:11:38 06:11:58 06:11:58 06:12:02 06:12:08 281 1 that, I could tell you what year he was employed. 2 MR. O'FALLON: Let's go off t he record for 3 d a secon . 4 THE REPORTER: Off the record , please. 5 (Discussion off the record.) 6 (Deposition recessed at 5:14 o'clock p.m.) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 C" T R N N 0 4-3 0 9 1

C O N F I D E N T I A L 282 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 I, Richard G. Stirewalt, hereby certify 3 that I am qualified as a verbatim shorthand reporter; 4 that I took in stenographic shorthand the testimony 5 of JAMES F. GLENN at the time and place aforesaid; 6 and that the foregoing transcript consisting of pages 7 1 through 281 is a true and correct, full and 8 complete transcription of said shorthand notes, to 9 the best of my ability. 10 Dated at New York, New York, this 3rd day 11 of September, 1997. 12 13 14 15 RICHARD G. STIREWALT 16 Registered Professional Reporter 17 Notary Public 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 ~TR MN 043109-1.2-

C O N F I D E N T I A L 283 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 I, JAMES F. GLENN, the deponent, hereby 3 certify that I have read the foregoing transcript 4 consisting of pages 1 through 281, and that said 5 transcript is a true and correct, full and complete 6 transcription of my deposition except: 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 JAMES F. GLENN 16 Deponent 17 18 Sworn and subscribed to before me this day 19 of , 1997. 20 21 22 23 Notarv Public 24 25 My commission expires STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES P.O. BOX 18188, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55418 1-800-553-1953 Ct R HN 04309ti3

CTR f fN 043094