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Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Philip Morris, et al. Leonard Zahn - May 28, 1998 Page 182 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 would please tell him in what context you knew Dr. Homburger. MR. SCHEINER: Objection. BY MS. NIAL: Q. Do you recall that question? A. No, I do not. Q. He says: "In what context do you know Dr." -- You began: "In regard to his tobacco research on esophageal or laryngeal cancer.° And the next in question was: "Tell me about that." "Have you got an hour?" "No, I've got one, but just give me the bottom line." And you answered: "He was a grantee from The Council for Tobacco Research for a number of years and stopped being a grantee under some, I suppose, unpleasant circumstances, at which he made certain claims and was about to make certain charges at a press conference at a scientific meeting. I learned about it in Jane Rose Reporting Offices in New York and Minneapolis Phone: 1-800-825-3341 Fax: 1-212-486-5730

Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Philip Morris, et al. Leonard Zahn - May 28, 1998 Page 183 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 advance and arranged for the press conference not to be held." MR. SCHEINER: Objection. BY MS. NIAL: Q. Do you remember giving that testimony? MR. SCHEINER: Objection. THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MS. NIAL: Q. That was true testimony at the time you gave it, sir? A. Yes. Generally so, yes. Q. I wonder if you could describe to me, sir, what the unpleasant circumstances were which you were speaking about when you gave your testimony in 1996. A. The fact that the -- a scientist being supported by the client was going to make a false claim which, if publicized and believed, would in effect have meant that The Council for Tobacco Research would be out of business the following week. Q. What was the false claim that Dr. Homburger was going to make? Jane Rose Reporting Offices in New York and Minneapolis Phone: 1-800-825-3341 Fax: 1-212-486-5730

Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Philip Morris, et al. Leonard Zahn - May 28, 1998 Page 184 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I should say allegedly. I was told that he was going to claim that the Council was seeking to suppress or censor his findings in which he was exposing animals, hamsters, to cigarette smoke. Q. When you were told that this was what Dr. Homburger was going to do, did you personally contact Dr. Homburger to discuss the matter with him? A. No, I did not. Q. So how did you know that these were claims that he was actually going to make? A. Because the person in charge of press relations for a pathology organization, association, at which he was going to make these claims told me he had called her, and this is what he -- or she had called him; I don't remember which, and that this was what he was going to say, and could he have a press conference to make these charges. Q. Did you investigate these charges to determine whether or not they were true? A. Well, I believe the person who told me that this is what he told her -- I Jane Rose Reporting Offices in New York and Minneapolis Phone: 1-800-825-3341 Fax: 1-212-486-5730

Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Philip Morris, et al. Leonard Zahn - May 28, 1998 Page 185 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 believe there was not any doubt whatsoever. Q. I'm sorry. I think we've miscommunicated. I wasn't asking if you believed the person who told you he was going to make those charges, that he told her that. But rather, whether or not you did any investigation to determine whether or not the charges that this person told you he was going to make were true. A. Yes. MR. PUTZEL: You mean whether his substantive findings were true? MS. NIAL: No. BY MS. NIAL: Q. Whether or not the charges he was going to make were true. A. Yes, in this sense: Several weeks prior to the date of this meeting, I got copies of correspondence between -- as I recall, mostly between Dr. Hockett and Dr. Homburger about a paper Dr. Homburger was proposing to give at this pathology meeting. And I had, of course, known Jane Rose Reporting Offices in New York and Minneapolis Phone: 1-800-825-3341 Fax: 1-212-486-5730

Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Philip Morris, et al. Leonard Zahn - May 28, 1998 Page 186 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 about Dr. Homburger for a number of years, and I was just concerned that -- from some of the statements in these letters, that he might do anything at this meeting. I certainly at that time had no idea he was going to make these claims, or the claim about suppression or censorship that I mentioned a moment ago. I had no idea then that he was going to do that. But from what I knew about him, I will use a trite phrase: "Anything could come from him." And that, I suppose, is not an investigation, but that was support for my feeling that he could say anything. Q. Did you talk to the people that he alleged were attempting to suppress his research? A. No -- yes. I talked with Dr. Hockett, of course. Q. What did Dr. Hockett tell you about Dr. Homburger's charges? A. Well, Bob Hockett doesn't censor Jane Rose Reporting Offices in New York and Minneapolis Phone: 1-800-825-3341 Fax: 1-212-486-5730

Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Philip Morris, ct al. Leonard Zahn - May 28, 1998 Page 187 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and doesn't suppress. CTR does not, never did, because even if anybody was stupid enough to begin to do something like that, it would be fatal for the Council. It would be a death blow. Q. Since these charges were not true, why did you not let Dr. Homburger state these charges and then have The Council for Tobacco Research show the public that this was untrue? MR. SCHEINER: Objection. THE WITNESS: Read back to her what she said, please. I think I misunderstood you or you misstated. MS. NIAL: Okay. (Record Read.) THE WITNESS: That would have been a very dumb thing on my part. BY MS. NIAL: Q. So you wanted to stop what he had to say so that the public would not hear Jane Rose Reporting Offices in New York and Minneapolis Phone: 1-800-825-3341 Fax: 1-212-486-5730

Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Philip Morris, ct al. Leonard Zahn - May 28, 1998 Page 188 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it? MR. SCHEINER: Objection. MR. PUTZEL: Objection. BY MS. NIAL: Q. You can answer the question. A. Yeah, in a sense, I did. And I was prepared to do what you had just suggested, to have the Council speak after the fact, which is not a good thing to do, in my view, in a situation of this kind. You would not want to do that; when somebody tells you that a man has a gun that he might use, "Let him use the gun first and then we'll get him." Q. So you would compare Dr. Homburger making charges about suppression of scientific research by The Council for Tobacco Research to a man with a gun? A. Oh, no. MR. SCHEINER: Objection. THE WITNESS: You understand what I mean. I don't think you have to bring it to that degree. But it's a somewhat similar Jane Rose Reporting Offices in New York and Minneapolis Phone: 1-800-825-3341 Fax: 1-212-486-5730

Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Philip Morris, et al. Leonard Zahn - May 28, 1998 Page 189 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 thing; not the degree, but the principle, I think, is the same thing. This would have been a very serious charge, and in my experience in public relations, the most difficult thing in the world to do when you are in a crisis is to catch up to a charge to try to get your explanation in. If you are lucky, you get a little bit in, but nobody pays much attention to it. It's the sensationalism that attracts all the attention, and that's what would have happened in this case. BY MS. NIAL: Q. What efforts did you make to arrange for the press conference not to be held? A. When I learned that this was happening from the communications -- or the public information director of the pathology association -- her name was Mrs. Graves; I may have to use that name in my explanation. I called Mr. Hoyt -- This was in Atlantic City. Jane Rose Reporting Offices in New York and Minneapolis Phone: 1-800-825-3341 Fax: 1-212-486-5730

Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Philip Morris, et al. Leonard Zahn - May 28, 1998 Page 190 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I called Mr. Hoyt and told him what was being planned; I was going to draft a press release and then call him back and get approval to use it, if this press conference came off and Homburger did what he said he was going to do. I did those things. Then I called Mrs. Graves again, told her I had drafted a press release, and the press release was going to say one, two, three, four, five things -- I don't remember how many, about Dr. Homburger and his research and his relationship with CTR. I also suggested to her that I was sure that members of the board of directors of her association knew Dr. Homburger, and that maybe she might want to discuss this with them to get their views of Dr. Homburger. She either called me back in an hour or two, or I called her. I don't remember. She told me that she had talked with people on her board, and they agreed that Homburger was, in effect, not to be trusted--he 7ane Rose Reporting Offices in New York and Minneapolis Phone: 1-800-825-3341 Fax: 1-212-486-5730

Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Philip Morris, et al. Leonard Zahn - May 28, 1998 Page 191 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 was an entrepreneur; he was an operator, a scientific operator--and that maybe there should not be a press conference to give him this kind of exposure with this kind of a charge, that he could not substantiate it all. Q. Did Mr. Hoyt approve of your attempts, your successful attempts -- they were more than attempts -- your successful efforts to stop the press conference from being held? A. I doubt if he knew about it until after the fact. Although at that time I didn't know it would be stopped, but it was; I was pretty sure at the time it would be. But he approved of whatever I had drafted in the way of a press release; I read it to him on the phone. Q. How long had Dr. Homburger been receiving funds from CTR prior to this incident? A. Oh, I can't recall the exact time, but it was for a number of years. Q. Were there any complaints during that period of time, as far as you know, about Dr. Homburger's work? Jane Rose Reporting Offices in New York and Minneapolis Phone: 1-800-825-3341 Fax: 1-212-486-5730